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Boeing Scraps Sonic Cruiser  
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9633 posts, RR: 68
Posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3053 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

http://www.komotv.com/stories/22051.htm

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Next on the chopping-block, the A380 (hopefully).


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Won't happen, guys. In contrast to Boeing, Airbus has always talked about real airplanes, with a real concept, not about unrealistic hot bubbles...


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

Airbus wasn't planning on a recession to pop up overnight, though. How prepared are they?


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2992 times:

We're Nuts - may I ask why 'hopefully'?

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2977 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

So much for JFK-SYD in under 10 hours.


Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineMEA From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

No airlines from the US have ordered the A380, so this should have no impact on Airbus.

The A380 is going ahead with about 100 orders from various airlines. The Sonic Cruiser had no orders & minimal interest from VS & SQ only I think.

Most of the carriers that have ordered the A380 can quite easily fill these aircraft, eg:

QF - Asia/Pacific & Kangaroo routes
SQ - Asia/Europe/Australia
EK - Europe/Asia/Australia




User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

This is a world-wide recession, you know.

And I say hopefully because while I have no arguments against the basic A380-100, anything larger would be foolish and probably destroy the airport system we rely upon now.



Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 8, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

I don't think Airbus will rush ahead on a larger one, yet.

A shrink is a distinct possibility. The airframe was designed to be shrunk, and they'll want to fill that 744 to A388 gap.

After the A388 is done, they're gonna refocus resources on the A300/310/767/757 size range... hopefully even before.

I'm carefully saving my Mileage Plus miles for a first class trip to HKG on SQ's A380 the very first day they offer it, if I can get on.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

N


User currently offlineAl From Australia, joined Jun 1999, 593 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

Can I respectfully request that posters to this thread stick to the topic at hand (i.e. - THE CRUISER, not Boeing, not the A380, not Airbus). If not, yet *another* thread will degenerate into a Airbus v Boeing crapola fest. We've all heard it many times over the years, and we all know who is on who's side, and who roots for which maker. Little point in re-hashing it all yet again, and ruining yet another thread.

If the report is confirmed, it's probably something that was predicted some time ago. Sort of like a new age Concorde in some ways I guess !!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Saw a paper report a month or two ago that said the same thing, only the replacement aircraft was to be a cross between a 747 and a 777, if that can be envisioned !!!

Respectfully. Cheers/Regards. Al.


User currently offlineUnited777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

Yup I know a few people who work at Boeing and the official annoucment of the sonic cruiser is expected tomorrow from what I hear.

I know that the aircraft was be studied at Everett north of Seattle.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2957 times:

According to that report the SC would be the fastest and highest flying airliner. (Not Invented Here syndrome I suppose).
Ever heard of Concorde, not that it is a template for how to do a commercially successful programme.
However, I've heard many say the SC's problem is that it would not have enough speed to make a real difference apart from the real longer-range routes.
Yet would still cost more to operate.


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2936 times:

So the future is...another twinjet. Gotcha.

There comes a point in a large corporation's existence when they transition...from 'playing to win' ...to...'playing..not to lose'. I think it's safe to say that Boeing has reached and passed that point.



User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 33
Reply 13, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

and to think we could have had this....



User currently offlineSkiordie From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Thanks for the photo. I can put it to my gallery of other airliners that were proposed but never built.

That list is long and another topic on it own.

Thanks.


User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

That's too bad.

Is Boeing trending down? What else have they got up their sleave when as the their designs continues to age?

A new 747 replacement? An acquisition of one of the RJ makers? Boeing/Canadair?

An A380 competitor?

They need something.

TNNH


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

good so

and now full speed for the alternative NG 200-250 medium ranger the market was asking for in the first place.

Boeing must hurry coming up with something better before they are blown of the civil map by Airbus ....


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 33
Reply 17, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

What else have they got up their sleave when as the their designs continues to age?

Both Airbus and Boeings designs are starting to age. As far as asthetics, a plane is now a plane ot the average person, it is just a long tube with wings on it. The A380 is just a bigger tube, and the 777 is just a larger version of the 737, or A320 or whatever, they all more or less look the same to anyone that isnt totally obsessed with aviation.

The reality, is that other than refinements, aircraft have found their general shape that works the best, hence the reason that it isnt changing all that much after all the years.

One thing that most good designers will tell you is that there has to be a point to the change, if you just make it look different, but it is still the same operationally, then what is the point in spending on all the R&D to get that ?

Bethune also said when asked about a new starter for the 737 series that reduced the buttons from 7 down to 3 "If the customer will not pay more for their ticket because of the change, then what is the point" He said that the customer in 3L is not going to pay an extra 50 buckets per flight because you have less buttons, so why bother.

Jeremy

"Everything that can be invented – has already been invented," - Mr. Charles Duell, United States Patent Office, 1899


User currently offlineMEA From Australia, joined Jan 2001, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

I have to disagree about a worldwide recession, Australia is not in recession.

Boeing has over the last few years had no direction, they need to stop focusing on variants of existing models & start pioneering like they did with the B747.


User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2847 times:

MEA,

For Boeing to "start pioneering like they did with the B747", they need to have an airline visionary like Pan Am's Juan Trippe. If you recall, Trippe approached Boeing for the 747 idea and they balked about it initially until Trippe issued the now-famous statement, "If you build it, I'll buy it!" Boeing literally bet the company on the 747 and it paid off in spades for them. Unfortunately, the airline industry has nothing but sheep running it - all of them trying to copy Southwest. The SC and concept like it, need vision and right now, there isn't any vision in this industry.

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineFBWless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 2838 times:

Artsyman,
Mr. Duell's quote is an urban legend, you can read about this here. There are many scientific areas where the researchers are waiting for a breakthrough development and aeronautics is one of these. This is why the new airplanes look just like those designed 40 years ago - there hasn't been enough development since then to enable a radical new design.

Also, Bethune is making it a bit too simple when he says that only a customer paying more can warrant an upgrade to the systems. What about increased safety or savings in training? Economy is not just earnings..


User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Artsyman.
Also, you misquoted Gordon Bethune. Gordon Bethune has many quotes in his book that apply to this situation. He likes to call it the "Row Five Test" (not row 3).

Bethune: (Regarding when he worked for Boeing at this point in the book, talking about the Definition of Better) When I worked there, one of my responsibilities was managing a new airplane, the 737X. I once got into a short debate with some engineers who wanted to improve the design of the start control panel on the 737. They wanted to make a better panel with a better switch techonology and fewer functions. To make it work, the pilot and the co-pilot would have to punch only two buttons instead of 8 on the current model. (Talks about it costing more, referring to Herb Kelleher and WN about how they already had 200 of the 737 type, and to have to train his pilots to use a different set-up, and upping maintenence costs due to having to buy two new switches) Saying to his design team: "I think to decide that, he's going to walk down to the back of his airplane, to the passenger in row 5, and he's going to say, 'Would you give me 50 cents more for your ticket to Amarillo today because we have a better start-control panel?'

The passenger might say, 'Well, the engines started okay. And they're both running now. And it only takes a couple of more seconds to use the old panel, and it's always worked. And it's not an emergency procedure. So to be honest, no. It's not worth another 50 cents to me."

So Gordon keyed the term 'Row Five Test', and has used it in business every since-and it is one of the things that has made him very successful at CO (at cost-cutting, without losing service).

Boeing postponed the Sonic Cruiser not because the program was a failure. They closed it because right now, the more important focus is on a new 180-250 seat replacement aircraft to take over the 757/767 lines. Boeing is trying to get a sought-after product out on the market very fast (plans to have the aircraft in service by 2004/2005). The Sonic Cruiser program is not permanantly canceled. It's been postponed (indefinitely are my thoughts).

Bryan
Chat Operator Delta767





Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 33
Reply 22, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

I think the point I mentioned was the same, I just didnt spend half an hour typing it all out. Row three, Row five... a bit pedantic me thinks. The other quote was correct, and I knew it was urban legend, just thought it seemed appropriate for the time

Jeremy


User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2787 times:

whether duell's quote is true or not - it only serves to undermine your point jeremy.

in 1889 duell said nothing more can be invented. clearly he was wrong.

in 2002 you just said nothing more can be invented (pertaining to airplanes), clearly you are ___n_.

tnnh


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 33
Reply 24, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

You have totally missed my point, I always laugh at how silly his point was, it is totally ridiculous what he said, that is why I included it, for a laugh !!. As far as today, I think there will be changes, but not radical ones in the near future. Eventually we may have atmosphere skipping planes, or sound barrier regional jets, but in truth the current shape of a jet makes sense, I do not see the Boeing Borg Cube on the horizon.

As I said in my post, there will be changes, but I see them more on modifications than on total restructured design. In the future perhaps this will change, but not in the near future..

Jeremy


25 Artsyman : in 2002 you just said nothing more can be invented (pertaining to airplanes), clearly you are ___n_. where the hell did I say that ? Jeremy
26 Post contains images Solnabo : YESSSSSSSSS....... At last Boeing took sense after all!! I mean, WHO wants the slowest "ssc"?? They´ll coming up with something better (Boeing), hope
27 Voodoo : World Wide Recession... Is that like the World Series of Baseball?
28 RUSCOE : What Boeing knows is that we are at a point of technology transition. Over the next few years the technology will develop enough to build non metal ai
29 Keesje : The A380 will be the last of the great new metal airplanes A380 is not all metal. It's made of Glare. The material is built up from alternating layer
30 RUSCOE : Thankyou Keesje. Unless things have changed I heard only the upper fuselage surface is skinned with Glare. I don't want to put too fine a point on it,
31 Keesje : RUSCOE as you are obviously know about materials do you think the "787" will be non ALU ? If so "time to market" for Boeing could become too longer th
32 Post contains images EA CO AS : I'm still chuckling over the "Boeing Borg Cube" comment. Resistance is futile.
33 Alessandro : Well, the SC had no customers as far as I know (no price tag either?), hard to make a new plane without customers. So if B was serious about this plan
34 GDB : Despite wanting to see Airbus do well, I regret the SC demise. It could maybe in time have led to an SST, despite only a Mach 2 SST being a true Conco
35 Artsyman : I'm still chuckling over the "Boeing Borg Cube" comment. Resistance is futile. Don't encourage them, they will start on about Boeing being assimilated
36 ConcordeBoy : Here's two completely opposing press reports, released the same day..TODAY!! Japan: http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1250757-6078-0,00
37 AvObserver : "Boeing postponed the Sonic Cruiser not because the program was a failure. They closed it because right now, the more important focus is on a new 180-
38 747-451 : Finally Boeing has come to it's senses to worry about immediate issues as opposed to pie in the sky unrealities... But the 757/767 isn,t the problem.
39 MD-90 : That pretty sonic impossibility is something you aren't going to see flying...ever. That basic design has serious drag issues. I like Lehpron's webpag
40 Houstondallas : MD-90 How can you say the 737 is a problem? Boeing sells a ton of them. Obviously, customers think they are a good aircraft. So, what's the problem? h
41 DeltaMD11 : 747-451, Are you friggin kidding me? The 737's, 747's, and the 777's are the only thing Boeing is selling right now. Haven't had any 757 orders for al
42 FDXmech : No airlines from the US have ordered the A380, so this should have no impact on Airbus. Last I checked, Fedex is from the U.S. and has ordered the A38
43 RayChuang : I'm not surprised that Boeing has shelved the Sonic Cruiser. Between the fact the plane doesn't offer that much significant time savings and the fact
44 MEA : Sorry FDXmech, I totally forgot about Federal Express. I was only thinking of passenger carriers.
45 Areopagus : MD-90: That pretty sonic impossibility is something you aren't going to see flying...ever. By calling it that, you seem to be implying that it is tech
46 RIX : The 737 and 747 are the problems that need to be faced. - well, this is quite correct! 737 is a great success but I don't think there can be any "NNG"
47 AvObserver : "As for the proposed "787" - if it has the 767 fuselage cross section then it loses to 330 from the very beginning (not because "2-3-2 is worse than 2
48 Rickb : I said it before in a previous thread, but Boeing really need to stick to the fuselage width of the 777 on this new aircraft if it is to carry suffici
49 AvObserver : Username: Rickb "I said it before in a previous thread, but Boeing really need to stick to the fuselage width of the 777 on this new aircraft if it is
50 William : As frequentflyer,do you mind if I comment on the 2-3-2. It is much preferred to the 2-4-2 Airbus layout. Polls have been taken in the past and the 767
51 Rickb : The 2-3-2 layout of the 767 was very comfortable - and I always prefer aircraft with 2 seats somewhere along the line - not least because I dislike si
52 Cloudy : It gives us enthusiasts something interesting to watch but consider.... ....There are only 2 major airframers today for 100+ seat aircraft, there used
53 Post contains links Gordonroxburgh : Alan Mulally's Press conference is online here in real media. 45 mins long, but very interesting http://www.boeing.com/news/breakingnews/2002/021220g.
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