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UA Pilot Trust Fund  
User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 8 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

An untouchable trust fund that pilots can draw on at retirement. So it isn't enough to get better pay, and work les hours, and get a nice pension. The Company had to set up a trust fund for your retirement that is untouchable even in bankruptcy protection. You people make enough to have a 401k and a financial planner. You all ran this company into the ground in 200 AND you get to keep this! Pilots had better explain this to others at UA, I know I'm pissed others in PHL are too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/19/business/19WORK.html

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (11 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

That trust fund is brilliant. Why didn't your union set up one for you? It is called a "B" fund or "retirement in your own name". It has been around forever and it saved the PanAm guys from getting pennies on the dollar. IMO your union was incompetent not to set this up for you. After all this is the airline industry and airlines fail. Cudos for UAL ALPA for having the forthought to protect that money for its members.

Your sour grapes should be directed at your union reps.


User currently offlineBucky707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1028 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (11 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1774 times:

"That trust fund is brilliant. Why didn't your union set up one for you? It is called a "B" fund or "retirement in your own name". It has been around forever and it saved the PanAm guys from getting pennies on the dollar. IMO your union was incompetent not to set this up for you. After all this is the airline industry and airlines fail. Cudos for UAL ALPA for having the forthought to protect that money for its members.

Your sour grapes should be directed at your union reps"

He's got ya there. If you didn't get as good a deal as the pilots, ask you union, don't get pissed at them for protecting themselves.


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4344 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (11 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

While I agree that every union should have been pushing for something similar (that's what unions are for, protect the members, right?), there's a reality check in here. This was a horrendously expensive item for UA to agree to, and quite honestly there is only one union that had the leverage to get it. Just like there was only one union that could force double digit raises in one go. I'm not criticizing the pilots for getting this, but lets be real here, they are the only ones that could've (and did) get away with it.

Duane



"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineMD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1330 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (11 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

Duane. It may have been very expensive for UAL if they set up a B fund all at one time. I do not know the specifics. At DAL the "B" fund was structured to transfer at 5% per year in order to not be especially burdensome to the company. I think UALPHLCS realizes what a smart move this was on the part of UAL ALPA. And truthfully the other UAL unions could've negotiated for it. Since negotiations is a matter of priorities, the other unions could've taken less salary, vacation, or whatever in order to establish such a bankruptcy proof plan for their members. And in addition it could've been set up similarly to the DAL plan in order to make it less expensive to UAL.

The point I am struggling to make is that UAL ALPA had the foresight to see that someday there might be a need for a B fund even when bankruptcy seemed unfathomable at UAL. Now UAL pilots will not be in the horrible circumstance of retiring in a year with nothing to show for 30 years of service. That's a good thing and a lesson to the industry. A portion of every airline employee's retirement should be protected from bankruptcy.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1735 times:

Searpqx, the problem is that apparently the pilots don't care that it's a horrendoulsly expensive deal for United to deal with. It's basically their own little slush fund for a group of workers who make far more than any other front-line workers at the airline. Maybe it's brilliant, but it's another thing that has led UA to where it is today.

User currently offlineEjazz From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2002, 721 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (11 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

"It's basically their own little slush fund for a group of workers who make far more than any other front-line workers at the airline."

So the pilots should not earn more than any other front-line worker? I can think of dozens of reasons why they did and rightfully so.

Off topic slightly but two weeks before UA went into chapter 11 I took a flight with them in First Class. I was not a begging upgrader or flashed them my air miles but held a normal First Class ticket. The front line staff I came into contact with from the check-in and gate agents to the flight attendants were just plain miserable. No hint of any attempt to provide good or courteous service at a time when you'd think they may be making some sort of effort. I found it quite remarkable since such actions would definately prevent me from travelling with United again whereas they should surely be striving for just the opposite. Maybe some improvements should be sought from the front line staff first before embarking on asking for further cuts from the Pilots.




Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
User currently offlineUAL Bagsmasher From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2146 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (11 years 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Excuse me, but would you be looking like the Publisher's Clearinghouse million dollar winner when your company is moments away from filing Ch.11? Didn't think so... Talk is cheap.

User currently offline61Heavy From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Why is this is a surprise? The B Fund ("Defined Contribution Fund") is a negotiated part of the contract that has existed for some time now. Similar "B Funds" are offered at Delta and American.

The ALPA contract is available on Skynet for any employee to read.


User currently offlineEjazz From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2002, 721 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (11 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1652 times:

UAL Bagsmasher

Well, we obviously we think differently. If I knew my company was in trouble the last thing I would do is act in a way that would scare off the very people who pay my wages and keep the company afloat. I, for one, would be making at least a little extra effort on behalf of my company and myself.

I do have great sympathy with those at UAL who did make an effort and who have been let down by those who appeared not to care.




Etihad Girl, You're a great way to fly.
User currently offlineUAL Bagsmasher From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2146 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (11 years 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Well when you've had shitty management for the past 10 years, and everything you do to try to help your company blows up in your face, it's damned near impossible to keep smiling. We busted our ass and the powers that be kept making stupid decisions. That made us feel like we were working for nothing. It's not easy to erase years of neglect and abuse overnight.

User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1590 times:

Basically the pilots and their Union feel that the airline is thier to provide them with a very wealthy old age. No matter who has to fill the planes with passengers and luggage, fuel cater to the passengers, work out the paychecks and marketing and all the other things that airlines hire people to do. We are there to serve the pilots. Well, guess what, in bankruptcy the first thing to go, after the maagement contracts to Goodwin and Wolfe and all those other meat heads, is the B fund or what ever you call it.

This is BS. The pilots have helped to bring this airline to its knees they make 5 times what I make for less work and they get more at retirement. Ferris was dead on right to try to break that Union. ALPA sucks. Sucks the lifes blood from the Comapny sucks the morale from the other working people in the airline. I hope UA folds now. I will find another job. Those bastards flying the plane can go try and fly somewhere else.


User currently offlineUAL Bagsmasher From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2146 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (11 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1580 times:

I agree. I was really pissed off and moping around for the longest time over the whol Ch. 11 deal. Now, I really don't care if UA folds anymore. I can find work elsewhere as well. If another airline takes UA's place, at least there's a chance that they'll know how to do things the right way.

User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5504 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (11 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1574 times:

As a counterpoint to the poor service experienced by the big-ticket flyer, above...

Mere days before the 11 filing, I put my niece on UAL at DFW for her flight back home to Australia (in steerage, not First)... and every UAL employee we dealt with was friendly, cheerful and the height of helpful demeanor. The stress they had to be feeling with regard to their job situation was not in any way reflected by their on-the-job attitude. Made me hope for better, for them.

Bitterly ironic, by the way, that UAL operates at DFW out of Terminal B- the Braniff terminal.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16856 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (11 years 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1563 times:

I think under law retirement funds of companies who declare bankruptcy are always protected, meaning that slush (I mean retirement) fund the pilots at UAL have cannot be touched by the creditors.

However the court can order UAL not to make anymore payments into the fund.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

I have to agree with you ualphlcs, and bagsmasher. We here at UNITED for the most part don't really care now if the company goes under, when the pilots dirty laundry gets aired in front of the whole world you see what these spoiled brats have been doing makes you sick.

I for one don't care if they had a "b" fund, those days of raping this company are over. Our over paid taxi drivers will be at southwest wages soon, and those who are paying a few child supports and making alimony payments are screwed. Tilton will go after the pilots work rules, and Tilton will go after wages, and when he is done the pilots will be bringing home no more than 200k a year. After all is said an done AA,DL and so on will follow suit.

ejazz, why does it say you are a b777 driver? Are you and over paid pilots as well? And if so why on earth would you fly UNITED? And of coarse you would say we are lousy. Your a pilot? You have always been given the red carpet treatment, and when people find out what you do for a living they don't smile or greet you? Imagine that.
ual 777 contrail


User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1174 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (11 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1543 times:
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It strikes me that there is a bit of bitterness from the other employee groups towards the pilots.

I have to assume because I have not read anything to the contrary that US Air pilots had no ''lock box'' untouchable pension fund. Is that correct?

It may explain why I did not hear a lot about destructive rivalries between the various unions. There the anger was focused on the previous 10 years of incompetent management. At UAL you have the preceeding 10 years of incompetent management--and some deep differences regarding these dramatically different deals that were struck in recent years.

Will the UAL succed to emerge out of Chapter 11? I say 50:50 right now.



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (11 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1540 times:

As a loyal United customer, I'm appalled by employee attitudes at times.

I continue to patronize United because I love the airline and the service, and despite a Chapter 11 claim I hope they'll pull thru. I also want to do whatever I can to make sure the 80,000 employees still have a job.

But since it seems the employees don't care if it does or doesn't, that kinda reduces my faith.

N


User currently offlineUALPHLCS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1517 times:

What I say and do on my own time has nothing to do with what I project to the customer.

I am sick of pilots claiming to be blameless victims in all this. Meanwhile more and more comes out about what they earn and SPECIAL retirement funds they get.

I may hate UA's pilots but the customer will never know.

As for my feeling about the company. I want UA to survive. I have family history wrapped up w/ my own employment. But these prima donnas strut around the airport, drive nice cars live in huge houses in the very best of neighborhoods, and cried poor in 2000, when they screwed me and the customers to get what they wanted, all the while sitting on a huge pile of money. They have the nerve to be puzzled and stunned that thier raping of the company has very near destroyed it.

Well if its destroyed I can get another job. But these guys will have to actually go work for a living instead of playing TopGun. There is no other airline thats will pay through the nose like this. And UA should pay through the nose any more.


User currently offlineThrawn From British Virgin Islands, joined Mar 2002, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 1490 times:

If United had been a UK or EU airline they would have gone bust now and wouldn't be flying!!!!

Its about time that that Chapter 11 is taken away from the airlines.
All an airline in the US has to do is mismanage itself for 10 years like United, abusing staff and pax then file for Chapter 11.

While UK/EU Airlines struggle across the Atlantic trying to do a proper job of managing an airline and making money. What do United do but cut prices to squeeze the market, while there sitting pretty under the protection of Chapter 11. Where's the fairness in that.

If all the airlines in the world operated in a similar manner half of the big airlines wouldn't be surviving now!! How many times have Continental been under Chapter 11 protection.

As for the pilots. Well IMHO all pilots are "Overpaid Spoiled Brats" its about time more recognition went to the other employees of airlines who work hard in all weathers day and night.

Now that should stir things up a bit!!!!!!

Before you ask I work for a UK Airline, I'm an engineer and I have a lot of pilot friends who some agree that they are overpaid compared to some other roles in there airlines.


User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (11 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1481 times:

As for the pilots. Well IMHO all pilots are "Overpaid Spoiled Brats" its about time more recognition went to the other employees of airlines who work hard in all weathers day and night.


I wish the pilots were still responding to this thread. Overpaid? For what pilots go through to get to the left or right seat of a 757 is 100 times more than what the average idiot thinks. The starting pilot doesn't make squat, and it takes years and years to get to a decent salary. To say that ALL airline pilots are "overpaid spoiled brats" mirrors ignorance. Pilots are constantly away from home and their families, live in hotels, are responsible for commanding 150 million dollar aircrafts cruising at very nearly the speed of sound at 37000 feet in the air with 300+ passengers--this takes skill by the way...this is a lot more than your average desk job. Many of you it seems think that EVERY pilot makes upwards of 250k a year. That is far from the truth, even though it shouldn't be.

I'm not denying that the other employees work hard...They do. But it doesn't take 10+ years of rigorous training and studying to become a flight attendant, a gate agent, or a baggage handler. The pilots who eventually get good salaries (those who have some seniority), deserve it. The criticizm going on here is really awkward. It's comparible to the accountant that gets pissed because the senior manager makes more than him/her.

FSP


User currently onlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (11 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1475 times:

Well... I suppose the "all pilots" comment refers to me too.. since I am a pro pilot and hopefully will be going to the airlines next year. To put it in perspective... here are some figures:


Cost of getting my necessary licenses- (Private, Instrument, Multi-engine, Commercial multi and single engine, CFI,CFII,MEI)- 25,000

Cost of a 4 year degree (I graduate in May)- another 20-30,000 at least.

Now I've got all those lisences and you'd think id be making a pile of money working as a corporate pilot and instructor??? wrong-- I am barely pushing 15,000 this year.

Next year when hopefully...very hopefully...I get hired by the regionals..I'll be making possibly only 14,000 a year...maybe..just maybe I'll get about 17.

Take 4-5 years at the regionals at around 25-30 a year after i get off probation. Not exactly a whole lot to live on.

Hopefully get hired with a major airline...Make around 40-60 a year as an F/O. Then make captain around my mid thirties.... Woo hoo! I'm over 100,000! Then finally in my fifties... maybe over 300,000, If i am lucky and with the right airline. Most nowadays are in the 200's.

Only old pilots who have put alot of years into the industry make the good money...and only a few of them actually do.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineCalpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 998 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (11 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1470 times:

UALPHLCS,

I can be trained to do your job or any other CS job in about 6weeks.

How long , and how much training would it take for a moron like you to qualify to fly the left seat of a B767? (if even possiable)

About 6 years! Thats the difference, if you want to bitch about our jobs then jump in and join us if we have we have such a sweet deal!

Go to School for 4 years which most of us have. Go through AirForce, Navy , or Marine training, get shot at defending Citizens like you (so you have the right to complain). Or try paying for every flight hour, just to get a interview with some fly by night airplane company in hopes of an Airline job at some future date.

If you have the problem with the UAL ALPA "B fund", then your staff should have gotten a contrat and worked for it too!

Bring it on, you make me sick. However; you have one very important fact very correct. Your pilots as well as myself will have a much harder time finding work in our flying airplanes when this is finished. You on the hand will fit in fine at any "fast food" or local shoping mall.


User currently offlineDelta737 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 516 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (11 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Nah, I'm just lurking.

It's always interesting how I go to work, feed my family and pay a mortgage, but somehow when I log on a pilot-hater topic, suddenly, I'm a $300K/year knuckledragger with a "slush fund".

A few points for UALPHLCS:

(a)You get what you negotiate. Discuss it with your union and similar employees at other airlines.

(b)Many pilots don't last until mandatory age-60 retirement

(c)Until you step into the cockpit and see what actually takes place during an irregular flight, reserve judgement. It happens way more than you think.

(d)If you don't tell me I'm overpaid to fly a jet, I won't tell you you're overpaid loading the bags.

(e)"Don't blame it on the player, baby, blame it on the game!"  Smile

Sorry, a little of that "Fresno Ghetto" popped out there!  Smile

Doug


User currently offlineCalpilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 998 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (11 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Doug,

Thank you for sounding more forgiving than myself. I will give up respect ratings to defend this type of misguided thinking.

By the way very nice "homepage" you have.


25 Tsully : UALPHLCS, take a flying leap...off a bridge! Take your pitty party-turned anger session out of public view you fool. Ordinarily, I'm a nice guy to my
26 Tsully : I may hate UA's pilots but the customer will never know. You really are an idiot, aren't you? Who the freaking heck do you think you're sharing your
27 AAR90 : >I wish the pilots were still responding to this thread. Responding will not change anybody's attitude, especially those who've vented here/now. They'
28 Delta737 : Thanks guys. Even though I'm an employee of a different airline, I want United and all of it's employees to succeed and vanquish the beast of bankrupt
29 Tsully : Couldn't have put it better myself, Doug. Thanks for the support, and I fully agree that employees like UALPHLCS need to be identified and fired. We c
30 TonyBurr : Hey guys I know UAPHLCS was down on UA on this post. I am not going to get into the "family" laundry. I will say that UAPHLCS and I have disagreed on
31 TonyBurr : Tsully just a quick quesstion. Do you work for UA or the son of a UA employee? You use the terms "we" and "our" and "us". It helps to know the lvele o
32 Tsully : Sorry for any confusion, TonyBurr. I'm just the son of an employee. I use first person when talking about United only because I strongly identify with
33 9844 : Ok kudos to the pilot group. Now, if the other unionized employees wanted that same trust and managment said no. Would you be angered if they struck.
34 TonyBurr : Tsully thanks for the clarification. Nice to see a young person with such dedication.
35 FATFlyer : Delta737, I thought I was the only one on this board who got interested out at VIS. I used to watch the UA 737s out there while growing up in the 70s.
36 TonyBurr : Can some ( an attorney, not just anyone) tell us if the Trust would be subject to the bamkruptcy court?
37 Foxhunter : This fund is just like a 401k, in individuals names, held in trust. No, it cannot be touched.
38 TonyBurr : Foxhunter, thanks for the explanation. It helps to clarify!
39 UALPHLCS : WHAAA WHAAA I love all you pilots. "I can do your job in 6 weeks" Your probably right. However UA training for CSR is 3 weeks so you would flunk out.
40 ILUV767 : This is one post where I disagree with UALPHLCS. United pilots are taking a big pay cut. Yes, they arnt loosing all of there raises that they got from
41 TonyBurr : UAPHLCS - see my post above. One thing I will say about youis that you are and have always been EXTREMELY supportive of UA. I don't know all the other
42 UALPHLCS : UA actually should have MORE people like me. Not tooting my own horn, but I've been a Comapny guy for a very long time. I have a right to my opinions
43 UALPHLCS : I'm sorry TonyBurr, I did note that, and still forgot to thankyou. I know you and I have not agreed on everything, but who does. I have always respect
44 Post contains images AA717driver : UALPHLCS--I can explain why pilot groups have negotiated a B-fund that is managed outside the reach of the company. At AA, the company decides what ou
45 AAR90 : >At AA, the company decides what our B-fund shares are worth. Oops. Looks like someone needs to do some more research. AA's B-fund is a trust fund. AA
46 Gigneil : Everyone should just smile. Don't you think that'll make it all better? I have no doubt that UALPHLCS and every other UA employee here would like the
47 Buckfifty : Everyone tends to blame everyone else when something like this happens. But no one ever blames themselves. Either it's "the management screwed us" or
48 AA717driver : AAR90--You're right about the timing. The shares are purchased at the end of each month. They do go into a trust fund. However, AMR determines the sha
49 AAR90 : >However, AMR determines the share value. Nope. AMR has no control over share value. >There is no market value becuase the shares aren't traded anywhe
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