BeechStarship From United States of America, joined Oct 2002, 72 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2272 times:
In the recent thread on American's soon-to-be-retired F-100s, the general opinion is that the huge number (~114 craft) of American and USAir F-100s won't ever fly again. I find it hard to believe that regional jets as young as five years old will be parked permanently. As I recall, American got some of the last F100s before Fokker folded in 1997, and no F-100s is older than 1987. But alas, a quick glance at the fleet list shows a LOT of F-100s in the state of storage.
There's a problem with F-100s RR Tay 600 engines that require expensive repairs...supposedly $1.5 mil per engine. One would think RR would cover some of this cost if their design was faulty. Perhaps some other engine or another model of the Tay could be retrofitted.
With the renewed demand for regional jets, I predict that some solution to the problems with the F-100 will be found and the jets placed back into service, albeit most likely with different airlines. The BAe-146 had engine problems too...lots of young jets parked in the desert for years...problems solved, jets flying high again. Just like the 146, the F100 is too young to die!
Peronally, I like the F100 and have many pleasant memories flying on it, and I hate to see it disappear. Any opinions on its fate?
Tsv From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1641 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2189 times:
Good post BeechStarship. I think it would be a shame too as I like the F100 too however as you point out there are a number of factors working against a lot of them flying again.
I am led to believe that Alliance Airlines here in Australia (formerly Flight West) have already increased their fleet of two (to ?) for increased operations in Queensland and also wet leasing one to SkyWest in Western Australia (for the Argyle Mine contract I believe). However unless they grow really rapidly (which is the opposite to the opportunity growth strategy that the CEO said they would persue in an interview in Australian Aviation magazine) they'll only need a trickle of what is parked up. From memory the CEO said in the interview that there are very good deals to be struck when it comes to F100s (which obviously reflects the current over supply and unsupported scenario as opposed to F70s which are snapped up as soon as they come onto the market and fetch very good prices from all accounts).
Another obvious reason are the competitors in this area of the market ranging from the smaller 737s to the 717 (and the remaining BAe 146s) and now the A318 and the EMB170/190.
With regards to a replacement engine I would imagine that a different engine would require a recertification program which would be expensive. I was wondering why this wasn't proposed for the younger F28s and I assumed that this was the reason.
Unfortunately the future doesn't look great for the F100 but it does look good for the F70 and here in Australia we'll just have to appreciate them while they are still operated by Alliance.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 21 Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2171 times:
KLM might be interested in some of them I think. They've been scrounging the market for F70s for a while now and purchased some from BMi and Austrian/Tyrolean.
The location of these airframes in the USA might work against them of course (transportation across the Atlantic makes them an expensive option for KLM compared to potential sources in Europe).
Airways From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 880 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2153 times:
What about replacement parts? Since the manufaturer Fokker is no longer arround, it might be quite hard or expensive to get certain spare parts? Well, they sure can take parts from retired F100s, but these parts are not new...
That's probably also an important factor for a future operator of the second-hand F100s. What's the situation here?
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4169 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2055 times:
I think 114 F-100's is just too many for the market to absorb.
Yyz717, yoou mean 138 (in addition to the ones already on the market prior the TAM, AA and US announcement) as TAM has also put 24 F100s on the market (and the other 24 will follow quickly). However one European airline is thinking about operating the F100 (thus again a few F100s off the market).
Thomas_Jaeger From Switzerland, joined Apr 2002, 2278 posts, RR: 31 Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2052 times:
From what I heard, KLM, Austrian Airlines and Germania are interested in taking over some Fokker 100s. Rumours are Germania is already training pilots to start operating some Fokker 100 aircraft on low-cost flights ...
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4169 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2015 times:
FlagshipAZ, the KLM F100s first went to Air Littoral, then back to KLM (the partnership between KLM and Air Litoral broke down) and then, after a few years of flying again for mainline KLM, they dumped the F100 with Air UK (at the time a KLM partner). Air UK became a KLM subsidiary and changed its name into KLMuk and KLMuk changed its name recently into KLM Cityhopper UK which currently owns the F100s (waiting to be reregistered into the Dutch register with owner KLM Cityhopper)
Thus is essence KLM still owns and operates the F100 (and apart from a few years at Air littoral never left the KLM Group)
Jtamu97 From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 655 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1947 times:
I know a little bit of money to an airliine is nothing, but I have always wondered why they do not try to lease these stored aircraft to the public..I know maintenance is one issue as I know I do not know many mechanics that work on Fokkers..However, if they leased each aircraft, Oh let's say for $1,000 per month, that would be quite a bit of money. I would love to have a F-100 to fly around the country in..Anyways, here is to dreaming...And to answer the question, probably mostly scrapped .
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 15 Reply 17, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1918 times:
It's really a shame no one can't re-engined the Fokkers with the BR715. If they can re-engined 110 DC-8s with CFM56, some outside company can something similar to the Fokkers. They do have some life left in them. Just a thought. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
Trintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3192 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1820 times:
Sounds like a sad fate for the F100. I wonder, though, why does the F100 appear to have such difficulty in being resold whereas the smaller F70 derivative does not? F70 operators seem loathe to retire those planes and when they do sell them they are taken very quickly. What is it about the F100 that is working against it?
Petertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3239 posts, RR: 13 Reply 20, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1806 times:
What is it about the F100 that is working against it?
There are more F100's available then there are F70.
The F70 does not really have a true competitor (other than the largest verion of the CRJ), whereas the F100 has competition from the smaller B737s, B717 and A318. This will of course all change when the new regional jets come in, such as the ERJ-170.
The F100 has difficultiy with the engines, the F70 was offered with different engines so perhaps the F100 problems do not count for the F70?
Sllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1724 times:
Ted -- it's certainly possible, and, at one time, that might well have been the path taken. Or even, just hanging rebuilt Tays on them.
The problem gets more complex because of the overcapacity everyone has. There's simply no customers for the F-100's right now, airworthy or not. By the time the market comes back (economy combined with eventual Stage IV), these sadly orphaned aircrat will be pushing on 20 years old.
The truth is, a few F-100's probably will continue to fly around the world, and the parked fleets will largely provide parts and pieces to keep those few flying.
F111 From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 34 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1660 times:
This is a copy from the topic I just started re Fokker 70's and 100's.
Fokker could be making a come back. This article is from the December issue of Aviation International News.
Rekkof vies for Lufthansa RJ order
Rekkof Aircraft, the Dutch company trying to bring Fokker 70 and F0kker 100 twinjets back into production, has sais the uncertain status of the Fairchild Dornier regional jets and the demise of BAE Systems' Avro RJX program have boosted its prospects. The firm has joined Embraer and Bombardier in the race to win an order for up to 60 regional jets from German regional operator Lufthansa CityLine.
According to Rekkof president Japp Rosen Jacobson, an increasing number of operators, including several extisiting Fokker operators, now view the 79 seat F70 and the 107 seat F100 as low risk alternatives to new-generation regional jets. "They want solutions to their (operating) requirements without teething problems," he told AIN.
Jacobson also claimed that operators have expressed "doubts about the future of the Embraer factories." Asked to elaborate, he suggested that some operators, with whom he has been negotiating, doubt whether the Brazillian airframer can meet the development and production commitments for its new regional jet program (the 170 and 190 models) and whether its bussines plan will prove viable in the long run due to the high level of investment required.
"Customers are also show less interest in other alternative aircraft such as the Boeing 717 and the Airbus A318," Jacobson concluded.
Reffof has been holding talks with prospective F70 and F100 system suppliers. It hopes to resume production by the fourth quarter of 2004, subject to relaunch orders being secured. Anticipated annual output at its prospective factory close to Amsterdam Schiphol Airport would be 45 airframes
25 Tsv: Just had a quick look at the Rekkof website and it concentrates on the F70 : "It is our mission to relaunch the proven successful Fokker 70 JetLiner,
26 BeechStarship: Where is this Rekkof website you speak of? Are these folks serious about restarting Fokker production? Seems hard to justify with so many of them sitt