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Topic: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Oykie
Posted 2008-11-20 07:35:20 and read 11381 times.

i am so happy. Norway socialist government is buying JSF. more details will follow

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-20 08:03:55 and read 11360 times.

Hats off for LM, hope they'll manage to satisfy the Norwegians.

It would be interesting to see what capabilities the Gripen NG didn't meet. Will there be an official statement summarizing requirements vs. capabilities?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2008-11-20 08:46:00 and read 11322 times.

CNN is confirming the news. No mention of how many.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...OWJONESDJONLINE000630_FORTUNE5.htm

Quote:
STOCKHOLM -(Dow Jones)- Norway's prime minister's office Thursday said the country has decided to buy Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) planes made by the U.S.' Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT), rather than Saab AB's (SAAB-B.SK) Gripen jet fighter.

It said the JSF planes are the only ones that meet operational standards set by Norway's government for the country's future military air force.


Edit. Reuters reports that Norway aims to buy 48.
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...UtilitiesNews/idUSLK45092820081120

Quote:
OSLO, Nov 20 (Reuters) - The Norwegian government said on Thursday that it would pick Lockheed Martin's (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter over Swedish Saab's (SAABb.ST: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) Gripen to replace its ageing F-16 war planes.

NATO member Norway has said it aims to buy 48 combat jets in a deal that would be the biggest defence investment in Norwegian history, and is estimated to be worth as much as $14 billion over the lifetime of the aircraft.



[Edited 2008-11-20 08:48:46]

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-20 09:11:45 and read 11292 times.

Let's hope that the Norwegian parliement agrees.... But, yes it looks like it's gonna be F35.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-20 09:29:34 and read 11272 times.

The desicion was dropped like a bomb. Neither the Swedish Gripen company, Swedish embassy, American Lockheed Martin or the American embassy had been told beforehand. Everyone had expected the announcment / desicion of aircraft to be on the 19th of December.

It was decided to announce it now because the information was considered stockechange sensitive.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Brendows
Posted 2008-11-20 09:44:31 and read 11250 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 3):
Let's hope that the Norwegian parliement agrees....

The parliament will agree, the only party that may disagree is SV, and if they disagree they will show that their decision is not based on performance/cost.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: LAXintl
Posted 2008-11-20 10:38:58 and read 11197 times.

While the JSF is shaping up to be a good aircraft and obviously a major future NATO fighter, the Gripen in my opinon would have privoded the greatest benefits for the Norwegians with the proposed volume participation of Norwegian industry and given Norway the best bang for its money.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-20 11:14:06 and read 11178 times.

Lockheed Martin: - We surpass our competitors

USA ( US ambassadeur to Norway ) - Strengthens our relationship

Saab / Sweden: - Very dissepointed

Eurofighter: - Norway is gone from our map*****



Minister of defence Norway: - Even though the Swedish offer was better from an industrial relationship point of view, the conclusion was that the F 35 was clearly better from a defence point of view. The desicion was made after a heavy evaluation of our military defence analysists and checked by two different external evaluators.


The operation capabilities of the planes were set against 4 different threats. 3 domestic and 1 international. Amongs these are: Defence of land area ( Domestic ), defence of sovereignity of the areas of the North ( domestic ), defence of populated areas ( domestic ) and NATO's security of peace operations ( international )

JSF made it through all the 4 operational scenarions, while Gripen NG only managed the international part. JSF was considered best at information gathering, survailance and eliminate targets on ground and sealevel.


There is however questions and doubts regarding wether the US will be able to make and deliver the planes in the end because of the financial crisis. - This is a question that we will have to follow up on with the United States and Lockeed Martin.


( ***** Eurofighter was no longer part of the final competitors. They left the bidding process along time ago due to the fact they felt that the competition was not real )

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SASDC8
Posted 2008-11-20 11:18:09 and read 11170 times.

Excellent choice by the Norwegian Government!

It will pass threw parliament with the support of Høyre and FRP without a hitch, no matter what SV says/decides on Big grin

Cheers
Stein

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: OyKIE
Posted 2008-11-20 11:32:02 and read 11157 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 1):
It would be interesting to see what capabilities the Gripen NG didn't meet. Will there be an official statement summarizing requirements vs. capabilities?

According to the NRK news, SV would like to delay a decision to make the requirements public.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
While the JSF is shaping up to be a good aircraft and obviously a major future NATO fighter, the Gripen in my opinon would have privoded the greatest benefits for the Norwegians with the proposed volume participation of Norwegian industry and given Norway the best bang for its money.

The Swedish deal was very attractive, if Gripen is sold in many examples. But Norwegian industries also benefit on the F-35 program.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 7):
There is however questions and doubts regarding wether the US will be able to make and deliver the planes in the end because of the financial crisis. - This is a question that we will have to follow up on with the United States and Lockeed Martin.

I have heard only one self appointed expert saying that the JSF probably won't happen, but I have a hard time believing that. I mean, it is the future combat airplane for the US. That are the chances of the JSF not happpening?

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 8):
It will pass threw parliament with the support of Høyre and FRP without a hitch, no matter what SV says/decides on

Let's hope that you are right in this regard  Silly

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-20 11:48:08 and read 11147 times.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9):
I have heard only one self appointed expert saying that the JSF probably won't happen, but I have a hard time believing that. I mean, it is the future combat airplane for the US. That are the chances of the JSF not happpening?

Yes I am aware of this self appointed expert that you are referring to and I agree with you, he is'nt very trustworthy. However this question has gotten attention in the Norwegian parliement and therefore will proabably be adressed.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-11-20 12:23:51 and read 11122 times.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9):
have heard only one self appointed expert saying that the JSF probably won't happen, but I have a hard time believing that. I mean, it is the future combat airplane for the US. That are the chances of the JSF not happpening?

Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered,and therefor in these finacial times would be at risk,not the F-35 program itself,right?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 7):
***** Eurofighter was no longer part of the final competitors. They left the bidding process along time ago due to the fact they felt that the competition was not real )


I can't blame them, a lot smarter than SAAB,they have my respect!  thumbsup 

Congrats to US and LM!  wave 

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-20 12:51:06 and read 11096 times.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9):
According to the NRK news, SV would like to delay a decision to make the requirements public.

So far I've found this: http://www.regjeringen.no/upload/FD/...flykapasitet_anbefaling_311008.pdf

and



I'm only halfway through the report so it's to soon to tell if it's useful.
Norwegian is a tricky language... I which I spent more weeks skiing in Trysil as a kid  Smile

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9):
I have heard only one self appointed expert saying that the JSF probably won't happen, but I have a hard time believing that. I mean, it is the future combat airplane for the US. That are the chances of the JSF not happpening?

Saying the JSF won't happen is bull IMO. Fewer built planes than first expected is however a possibility...

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2008-11-20 13:27:09 and read 11074 times.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 9):
The Swedish deal was very attractive, if Gripen is sold in many examples. But Norwegian industries also benefit on the F-35 program.

Reuters reports that the F-35 was cheaper.
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...UtilitiesNews/idUSLK45092820081120

Quote:
Combat aircraft is a crucial capability for Norway's defence," Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg said in a statement on Thursday.

"The Joint Strike Fighter is clearly best at fulfilling the requirements we have set, and in addition (it) is the cheapest plane," Stoltenberg told a news conference.

Norway said the U.S. planes would cost 18 billion Norwegian crowns ($2.54 billion), which it said was 6 billion crowns cheaper than the Gripens. Defence officials said that stealth technology was one feature that put the F-35 ahead of others.

The defence ministry said total costs of owning the Gripen plane over a 30-year lifetime were estimated at 20-30 billion crowns higher than the JSF lifetime costs.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-11-20 14:00:14 and read 11048 times.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
Reuters reports that the F-35 was cheaper

People involved in the program here are very confused where theese figures coming from,they clame the opposit??
And Norways defends analyst,John Berg says that the JSF will cost twice as much as the Gripen??? Future will tell i guess!

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2008-11-20 14:51:42 and read 11014 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 14):

Yes, the F-35 is designed from the outset to be cheaper to maintain than legacy platforms.  Smile

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: STT757
Posted 2008-11-20 15:46:04 and read 10975 times.

Which version of the F-35, the B model would be cool.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-20 16:33:38 and read 10959 times.

It's the A model

If everything goes as planned, they will be faced in from 2016 - 2020 and replace Norway's F 16's

http://media.aftenposten.no/archive/00900/Bod__Airshow__a_jpg_900915x.jpg

I'm not sure if this is the real thing or if it's a mock up, but the picture is from Bodø airport in Norway earlier this year.

With Norwegian markings...  Smile

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SCAT15F
Posted 2008-11-20 19:40:00 and read 10904 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 11):
Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered

An air defense variant of the F-35A that is lighter, perhaps?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: EBJ1248650
Posted 2008-11-20 20:38:27 and read 10883 times.



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 18):
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 11):
Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered

An air defense variant of the F-35A that is lighter, perhaps?

What is the source; i.e. where did that information come from? What's the difference between what the Norwegians want and what US armed forces want and will get?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-20 21:28:43 and read 10863 times.



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 15):

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 14):

Yes, the F-35 is designed from the outset to be cheaper to maintain than legacy platforms. Smile

It will be cheaper than legacy platforms, i.e. teen series fighters. LM guesstimated the F-35 will be 30% cheaper to operate than the F-16. Thailand says Gripen will be 50% cheaper than the F-16 to operate. Gripens proven track record is however nothing compared to LM's estimations...  Yeah sure

As SAS A340 said, the only way to find out is to wait ~10 years since the F-35 isn't operational in Norway yet.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 17):
I'm not sure if this is the real thing or if it's a mock up, but the picture is from Bodø airport in Norway earlier this year.

Mockup. The AA-1 (the only F-35A flying) is to precious to risk crossing the Atlantic with to participate in airshows etc.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 18):
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 11):
Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered

An air defense variant of the F-35A that is lighter, perhaps?

The only difference I'm aware of is the landing chute for icy runways.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Brendows
Posted 2008-11-21 00:01:31 and read 10810 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 14):
And Norways defends analyst,John Berg says that the JSF will cost twice as much as the Gripen?

John Berg was referring to fuel burn (he believed the F-35 would burn twice as much fuel as the Gripen NG,) not life-time cost. I'm actually puzzled that people listen to this guy (John Berg)...

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Art
Posted 2008-11-21 01:39:55 and read 10765 times.

Good news for LM; bad news for Saab.

I am baffled how LM is going to deliver the frames at a cost of $61 million each from 2014 when the USAF F-35's are budgeted to cost over $90 million each in 2013. I think the US Congress may also be baffled about this when it comes to approving this export deal. How will LM be able to explain charging the US government 50% more per F-35 delivered in 2013 than it proposes charging the Norwegian government for aircraft delivered from 2014?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-21 03:39:03 and read 10713 times.



Quoting Art (Reply 22):
Norwegian government for aircraft delivered from 2014

The Norwegian ones will start being delivered between 2016 - 2020.

Final cost and number of aircraft is still a matter of negotiation.


It might be that the industrial contracts in Norway are calculated and deducted into the final cost ?? I don't know.

But it's a long way to go.

The Norwegian government hope to get acceptance and approval from parliment to start negotiating final cost and number of aircrafts in December this year.

Final contract for delivery wont be signed before 2014 proabably.

First delivery 2016

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-21 03:52:58 and read 10705 times.

In a report the Norwegian airdefence analysists recomends that Norway should buy 56 and not 48 JSF as previously said.

However there will no doubt be serious discussions about how many fighters Norway need. So we'll just have to wait and see.

Personally I'm hoping for 56 or more...  Smile

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Art
Posted 2008-11-21 04:09:58 and read 10699 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 23):
Quoting Art (Reply 22):
Norwegian government for aircraft delivered from 2014

The Norwegian ones will start being delivered between 2016 - 2020.

My mistake. Thought it was 2014 delivery start.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 23):
Final contract for delivery wont be signed before 2014 proabably.

Why so long? By then Norway would have to accept whatever price LM asked for.... unless the price was fixed by contract in earlier negotiations.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-21 05:59:13 and read 10908 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 20):
The only difference I'm aware of is the landing chute for icy runways.

The Norwegian F 35 will also be able to carrie the Norwegian NSM missile. I seem to recall that Lockheed Martin had to make some adjustments to fit that into the missile bay. I don't know if that will be something that will be done with all F 35 or only the Norwegian ones.

" According to Kongsberg, this "multi-role NSM" is the only anti-ship missile that will fit inside the F-35's internal bays. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Strike_Missile

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-21 06:18:53 and read 10888 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 26):

Aha... I was under the impression that the NSM (or JSM) would be offerd to all JSF partners. Thanks for the info!

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-21 06:34:16 and read 10873 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 27):
Aha... I was under the impression that the NSM (or JSM) would be offerd to all JSF partners. Thanks for the info!

I did'nt say that it would'nt. I only said that the use of NSM with the JSF was an important issue for Norway. I'm sure that the countries that buy JSF will be able to buy NSM too. Just like the ones that have Gripen and Eurofighter.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-21 07:33:02 and read 10843 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 28):
I did'nt say that it would'nt. I only said that the use of NSM with the JSF was an important issue for Norway. I'm sure that the countries that buy JSF will be able to buy NSM too. Just like the ones that have Gripen and Eurofighter.

OK, I misinterpreted you, sorry about that.

I responded to this:

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 11):
Well,i have read that the type of F-35 that Norway wants is of no intrest for the US and therfore more expensive for LM to produce,because of the low airframe nr ordered,and therefor in these finacial times would be at risk,not the F-35 program itself,right?

I thought the landing chute feature would make Norway’s JSF version unique, or will other countries use this as well? Therefore, when you responded with the NSM post, I thought fitting it in the Norwegian JSF would be another unique Norwegian feature.

Sorry about the confusion.
Have you heard of more Norway specific features?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-21 07:46:16 and read 10832 times.

I think it was only Norway that added braking parachutes to it's F 16 and I think that is still the case.

Anyone who wants a braking parachute installed can ask for that when ordering the planes, but so far I think it's only Norway that has asked for that for it's F35. I don't think it comes as equipment on the F35.

I guess the USA could have use for it in certain parts of their country ( Alaska for instance ) and maybe Finland if they decide to go for F 35.



P.S Another thing that was added to the Norwegian F 16's was a identifcation spotlight to identify Soviet planes in the old days. I don't think we have asked for that for the F 35 though.

[Edited 2008-11-21 07:48:55]

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Tancrede
Posted 2008-11-21 08:36:34 and read 10795 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 30):
and maybe Finland if they decide to go for F 35.

Decision not to be made before 2015 by Finland, for a new fighter to be delivered by 2030.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: OyKIE
Posted 2008-11-21 09:51:04 and read 10735 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 30):
Anyone who wants a braking parachute installed can ask for that when ordering the planes, but so far I think it's only Norway that has asked for that for it's F35. I don't think it comes as equipment on the F35.

Wouldn't new carbon fiber bakres make a parachute less critical? It seems old fashion to install a parachute on a future airplane! Wow much do you gain in braking distance with a parachute? A P8 poseidon will stopp inn less than 800 feet if needed. Surley the F-35 should be able to stop at least in this distance?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-21 10:36:11 and read 10707 times.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 32):
Wouldn't new carbon fiber bakres make a parachute less critical? It seems old fashion to install a parachute on a future airplane! Wow much do you gain in braking distance with a parachute? A P8 poseidon will stopp inn less than 800 feet if needed. Surley the F-35 should be able to stop at least in this distance?

The main reason, as I've understood it, is ability to stop on icy runways where breaking capacity is limited. Breaking distance on a dry surface can't be a problem for the JSF.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Olle
Posted 2008-11-21 10:46:17 and read 10701 times.

The swedish ministary of defence asks norway to explain their explainations..... This can get long term consequenses.....

How much military equipment does sweden buys from norway?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: N328KF
Posted 2008-11-21 11:24:52 and read 10673 times.



Quoting Olle (Reply 34):
The swedish ministary of defence asks norway to explain their explainations..... This can get long term consequenses.....

How much military equipment does sweden buys from norway?

I honestly don't understand why he (or anyone) is surprised. F-35 was the lead horse from the beginning...

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Nomadd22
Posted 2008-11-21 11:29:12 and read 10672 times.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 32):
Wouldn't new carbon fiber bakres make a parachute less critical? It seems old fashion to install a parachute on a future airplane! Wow much do you gain in braking distance with a parachute? A P8 poseidon will stopp inn less than 800 feet if needed. Surley the F-35 should be able to stop at least in this distance?

I'm not sure how carbon brakes would help on an icy runway. Norway's ops would be kind of limited if the plane could only land on ice free surfaces.
Maybe they should have gotten the STVL version.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-11-21 16:06:14 and read 10554 times.

Anger over Norway's fighter plane rejection
Published: 21 Nov 08 16:39 CET
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/15858/20081121/



A former Saab executive lashed out at the Norwegian government on Friday over its handling of a decision to reject the Gripen in favour of the American F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.





“We are really surprised about how this was handled, what happened yesterday, and about the justification,” said Jan Nygren, who served as Saab’s deputy CEO until two years ago, to the TT news agency.

Since leaving his post, Nygren has served as a consultant for Saab on the Norway deal and as a result has plenty of insight into what was said and done in the lead up to Thursday’s rejection of the Gripen.

“It went very fast and we didn’t get any advance warning, maybe an hour and a half, and with that I’m being generous,” he said.

“And besides, we are just a tad surprised to say the least that they so unabashedly chose to criticize the Gripen, despite the fact that all of us involved know that the Gripen is a better fit for the functional demands laid out in the documentation included in the proposal request.

“I can’t criticize Norway for deciding to buy an American airplane. It’s obvious if there are two competitors that only one can win. But we are confused by the justification. Why is it necessary to sit in a press conference and state that the Gripen doesn’t meet a number of operational demands?” asked Nygren.

As he continued to vent his frustration, Nygren wondered further why Norway would subject the Gripen to such harsh public criticism.

In announcing the decision on Thursday, Norway’s defence minister Anne-Grethe Ström-Erichsen presented a detailed technical review in which she detailed how the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) outclassed the Gripen in almost every area.

“The JSF is considered to be better than the Gripen in every major requirement for a combat aircraft – spying and surveillance, as well as combat against targets in the air, on land, and at sea,” she told the Norwegian news agency NTB.

The public dismantling of the Gripen’s capabilities by the Norwegian defence minister was also a sore point for Nygren.

“We’re wondering why a neighbouring country like Norway took the liberty of choosing this way to describe an airplane which is actually in operation in our air force,” he said.

“It will probably mean that Saab will request to look at the documentation. And I’m assuming that the government and the Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) are just as interested. Because this isn’t just some minor attack, if I can use that expression.”

Jan Nygren said he had never believed that Norway was simply playing to the gallery when it requested a Swedish tender.

"No, I have not wished to harbour any such suspicions. We have endeavoured to view our Norwegian friends as a group that was serious and had thought this through.

"Of course, having seen all this, I will now have another think. What happened yesterday may cause me to have some doubts."

Source: thelocal.se

Coments from "team Eurofighter" was like " Really? what a surprise!" (sarcastic)
I don't think that we are so dissapointed over that we lost the race,it's more how we did it by our neighbour Norway,feels like a spit in the face and many wonder why? I dont blame SAAB among others that they want a explanation from Norway!  Confused

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2008-11-21 16:32:05 and read 10531 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 37):
Why is it necessary to sit in a press conference and state that the Gripen doesn’t meet a number of operational demands?” asked Nygren.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 37):
As he continued to vent his frustration, Nygren wondered further why Norway would subject the Gripen to such harsh public criticism.

He's really taking this hard, huh?  Wink

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-22 00:23:18 and read 10426 times.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 38):

He's really taking this hard, huh?

Sounds like his feelings are similar to the ones expressed by Boeing when NG/EADS won the KC-45 deal.

I think one big issue is that Norway says that the Gripen didn't meet the requirements. Since he has seen them and knows what the Gripen NG will be capable of, he would have a quite good picture.There would have been a lot less commotion if the Norwegian conclusion was "both contenders met the requirements but the F-35 exceeded them to a further extent".

I have another general wondering. There has been some reports in the Norwegian press that a key factor was the outcome of the air combat simulations against the PAK-FA. Are there enough know facts available of the PAK-FA to perform such an evaluation (I'm not criticizing the fact that the F-35 came out on top)? The numbers stem from warfare.ru, is that a credible source?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-11-22 06:44:50 and read 10336 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 39):
I think one big issue is that Norway says that the Gripen didn't meet the requirements

One of them was the costs,Norrway clamed that the Gripen costs during a 40 year span would have a pricetag of about 22 bilj dollar,and according to SAAB that's over 400%!!! more than SAAB promised that it would cost! SAAB wonder where this numbers come from,due to the fact that the whole Gripen program for over 200 planes including develop has cost about 15 bilj. dollar!

Quoting TGIF (Reply 39):
There would have been a lot less commotion if the Norwegian conclusion was "both contenders met the requirements but the F-35 exceeded them to a further extent".

Exactly! Insteed they used 90% of the time to throw crap at Gripen and what it seems like claiming things thats not are correct. It,s probably not agains the law but very very cheap and uggly!! Everybody more ore less know that Norway are forced to buy American made but thats not SAAB,s fault is it?
 duck 

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-22 17:39:20 and read 10154 times.

Press release from LM:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...08/112008ae_f35_norway-future.html

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: OyKIE
Posted 2008-11-23 05:38:13 and read 10044 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 37):
Why is it necessary to sit in a press conference and state that the Gripen doesn’t meet a number of operational demands?” asked Nygren.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 39):
think one big issue is that Norway says that the Gripen didn't meet the requirements. Since he has seen them and knows what the Gripen NG will be capable of, he would have a quite good picture.There would have been a lot less commotion if the Norwegian conclusion was "both contenders met the requirements but the F-35 exceeded them to a further extent".

There was an article in Aftenposten today, who says all the experts did the analysis one more time, since they were surprised that the difference was so big. To make sure the numbers were correct they did the analysis one more time. 90 experts in 27 groups have worked with the this for more than a year. And two external consultant firms came up with the same conclusion and were also surprised that the difference was so big.

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article2785027.ece Link is only in Norwegian. Sorry.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Someone83
Posted 2008-11-23 13:16:50 and read 9931 times.



Quoting Olle (Reply 34):
The swedish ministary of defence asks norway to explain their explainations..... This can get long term consequenses.....

Maybe the Swedish minister need to be reminded who our main allies are?....one hint: NATO!

Quoting Olle (Reply 34):
How much military equipment does sweden buys from norway?

Not sure, but just because we don't want your planes, doesn't mean Norway doesn't buy military equipment from Sweden. One example is the CV-90 (Strf-90 in Swedish) that the Norwegian Army uses

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-23 14:14:54 and read 9898 times.

From what I have heard, Sweden does'nt buy equipment from other nations because of their neutral policy. Norway has bought CV 90's from Sweden and Stridsbåt 90 ( Combat Boat 90 ) from Sweden among other things. Our specialforces has the Carl Gustav recoilless rifle - anti-tank weapon in it's arsenal of many different weapons in use.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2008-11-23 19:52:47 and read 9793 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 44):
Our specialforces has the Carl Gustav recoilless rifle - anti-tank weapon in it's arsenal of many different weapons in use.

There are plenty of AT-4s in use by the US as well, another Saab product.  Wink

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Moriarty
Posted 2008-11-24 04:02:09 and read 9702 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 39):
There would have been a lot less commotion if the Norwegian conclusion was "both contenders met the requirements but the F-35 exceeded them to a further extent".

I don't think we know all the facts behind the Norwegian decision. But judging by what's being said up to this point I think the above is head on.

Of course there's national pride involved into this. And of course Sweden is disappointed. Who wouldn't be? We're proud of Gripen and doesn't like it being bashed like this. Loosing a deal has been done before so that isn't new. But doing it this way maybe makes it a little bit harder for "us" to accept?

I hope Sweden will act professionally no matter what, business is business. Foul play or not.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-24 06:06:40 and read 9658 times.



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 43):
Maybe the Swedish minister need to be reminded who our main allies are?....one hint: NATO!

Does that mean Norway don't need to explain them selves to non-NATO members? And because they are part of NATO, non-NATO nation’s proposals may be disqualified on false grounds?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 44):
From what I have heard, Sweden does'nt buy equipment from other nations because of their neutral policy.

That's not entirely correct. A lot of the equipment may be from Swedish companies there are several exceptions. From the top of my head:

- All helicopters, NH90, AW 109, CH-46, AS 332 etc...
- Stridsvagn 122. Tank, Leopard 2 from Germany
- PSG 90. Sniper Rifle, L96A1 from UK
- AG 90. Sniper Rifle, M82A1 from US
- Ugglan. UAV, Sperwer, from France
- The list continues...

Sweden is less and less neutral, and more and more people seem to campaign a Swedish NATO membership. With shrinking budgets causing the army, air force and navy to shrink, give it 10-15 years

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-11-24 06:50:32 and read 9644 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 47):
That's not entirely correct. A lot of the equipment may be from Swedish companies there are several exceptions. From the top of my head:

- All helicopters, NH90, AW 109, CH-46, AS 332 etc...
- Stridsvagn 122. Tank, Leopard 2 from Germany
- PSG 90. Sniper Rifle, L96A1 from UK
- AG 90. Sniper Rifle, M82A1 from US
- Ugglan. UAV, Sperwer, from France
- The list continues...

Sweden is less and less neutral, and more and more people seem to campaign a Swedish NATO membership. With shrinking budgets causing the army, air force and navy to shrink, give it 10-15 years

So, do you have anything Norwegian ?  Smile

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Someone83
Posted 2008-11-24 11:41:10 and read 9554 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 47):
And because they are part of NATO, non-NATO nation’s proposals may be disqualified on false grounds?

Which false grounds? Several independent analysis have judged the JSF to be a better aircraft, which is not surprising considering it is a generation younger than the Gripen

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-25 12:02:37 and read 9350 times.



Quoting Someone83 (Reply 49):
Which false grounds? Several independent analysis have judged the JSF to be a better aircraft, which is not surprising considering it is a generation younger than the Gripen

I've never said that the JSF wasn't a better aircraft. I'm saying that the Norwegian evaluation seem to have left out some Gripen NG capabilities. One thing I read was that in the PAK FA simulations, Gripens EWS was not considered. If you read the "Ekstern kvalitetssikring" you will find a rather extensive risk analysis of the JSF price/LCC while for the Gripen they simply say "it's not possible to conduct a full cost estimation but it will be 20-30M NOK more expensive over 30 years". Saab has offered the Gripen to a fixed price so there shouldn't be any questions unanswered.

So please tell me why being a NATO member entitles the Norwegians to leave their assessment unexplained.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 48):
So, do you have anything Norwegian ? Smile

I'm not sure, perhaps someone can help me here. I hope though to see the NSM on the Gripen in the future, despite Norway's selection of the F-35.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-25 13:21:47 and read 9383 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 50):
Which false grounds? Several independent analysis have judged the JSF to be a better aircraft, which is not surprising considering it is a generation younger than the Gripen

If you by any chance haven't seen this you might want to. Regarding the Norwegian cost estimations. http://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/kommentarer/article2788757.ece

Quote:
Norge sier: 195 milliarder kroner. Sverige sier: 55 milliarder.
...
HVEM ER DET som har rett? Sverige, som har fløyet 120 000 timer med sitt jagerfly Gripen, som har nøyaktige tall over hva kostnadene er, som har kvalitetssikret tilbudet til Norge av Försvarets materielverk, tilsvarende det norske Forsvarets logistikkorganisasjon, og som for første gang offentlig går ut med sin tilbudspris til Norge?

Rough translation:

Quote:
Norway says: 195 billion. Sweden says: 55 billion.
...
WHO IS IT that are right? Sweden, which has flown 120 000 hours with its Gripen fighter aircraft, which have exact figures of what the costs are, that has secured the services for Norway by the [Swedish] Defense Materiel Administration, corresponding to the Norwegian Armed Forces Logistics, and that for the first time has issued its offer price to Norway in public?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-11-25 13:49:22 and read 9385 times.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 51):
Quote:
Norway says: 195 billion. Sweden says: 55 billion.
...
WHO IS IT that are right? Sweden, which has flown 120 000 hours with its Gripen fighter aircraft, which have exact figures of what the costs are, that has secured the services for Norway by the [Swedish] Defense Materiel Administration, corresponding to the Norwegian Armed Forces Logistics, and that for the first time has issued its offer price to Norway in public?

Maybe Norway runs it's airforce in a very very very very different way,i don't know but Norway was told that it was real hard to tell for sure what the total cost for gripen would be,but no problem to set a price for F-35...?.what was for sure,whas that the gripen would be aprox. 4 bilj dollars more than F-35??...öhhh what?? And they ended up by telling not to spend more than neseserely on Norwegian taxpayers money???....ok?!?
I.m actually looking forward to see where this end,either way it goes!
I think that some one is a   
Cheers to you all!!      

And by the way,lets not hope that your so called "experts" has misscalculated on the F-35 price,then it may end up to... maybe a trilj?? Just kidding with you all  

[Edited 2008-11-25 13:55:22]

[Edited 2008-11-25 14:04:20]

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Scooter01
Posted 2008-11-25 14:13:06 and read 9347 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 52):
And by the way,lets not hope that your so called "experts" has misscalculated on the F-35 price,then it may end up to... maybe a trilj?? Just kidding with you all

Just remember, -the customer is ALWAYS right.

Scooter01  duck 

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-11-25 14:32:32 and read 9336 times.



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 53):
Just remember, -the customer is ALWAYS right.

Yes, STUPID ore not  Wink

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: OyKIE
Posted 2008-11-26 23:24:09 and read 9174 times.

This might be a bit out of topic. But how much do the F-22 and F35 have in common? Is the fuselage almost identical?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2008-11-27 00:34:34 and read 9159 times.

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 55):
But how much do the F-22 and F35 have in common? Is the fuselage almost identical?

There's almost no commonality. The biggest thing they have in common is the engine, or more precisely, the engine core. The F135 engine is a derivative of the F119 used in the Raptor but with slightly uprated thrust and no thrust vectoring. Other than that, they have very little in common besides their general shape. The Raptor is also substantially larger than the Lightning.

[Edited 2008-11-27 00:35:39]

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: LNv22
Posted 2008-11-27 02:07:14 and read 9131 times.



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 56):
The biggest thing they have in common is the engine

Heh, yeah, and by the way, F22 got two of them (P&W F119-PW-100)

F35 is a single..

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: N328KF
Posted 2008-11-27 07:02:06 and read 9071 times.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 55):
This might be a bit out of topic. But how much do the F-22 and F35 have in common? Is the fuselage almost identical?



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 56):
There's almost no commonality. The biggest thing they have in common is the engine, or more precisely, the engine core.

AvWeek says you're wrong. The same F-22 articles I mentioned above (from the January 8, 2007 edition) describe the avionics. The F-35's avionics are essentially a 'little sister' to the F-22. For instance, did you know they both use Firewire as their primary datacomm bus?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2008-11-27 09:24:10 and read 9032 times.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 58):

Yeah, I did, but I don't know if I consider that a lot of commonality. They're both made of carbon fiber, so I guess thay have that in common too. I won't argue that the F-35 doesn't look like "mini-me" to the Raptor though.  Silly

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: N328KF
Posted 2008-11-27 21:50:44 and read 8937 times.



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 59):
Yeah, I did, but I don't know if I consider that a lot of commonality. They're both made of carbon fiber, so I guess thay have that in common too.

Right, well pick up a copy of the AvWeek in question. That and many other sources illustrate how much the F-22 and F-35 share, technologywise. And the 'mini-me' appearance has a lot to do with the fact that they use the same technology to achieve stealth.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2008-11-29 01:27:32 and read 8771 times.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 60):
Right, well pick up a copy of the AvWeek in question. That and many other sources illustrate how much the F-22 and F-35 share, technologywise. And the 'mini-me' appearance has a lot to do with the fact that they use the same technology to achieve stealth.

Well sure, I wouldn't argue that they don't have a lot of technology in common, of course they do. As for part-for-part commonality, not so much.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Art
Posted 2008-11-30 00:19:13 and read 8630 times.

I understand that there is a debrief scheduled for 4th December. Could be interesting. Norway has basically said that when they evaluated the cost of Gripen they found that the figures submitted by SAAB were completely false. You can't get from SAAB's figure of 55 billion krone to Norway's figure of 195 billion krone without that being the case (if you assume the evaluation was conducted properly).

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-11-30 02:23:28 and read 8624 times.



Quoting Art (Reply 62):
I understand that there is a debrief scheduled for 4th December. Could be interesting. Norway has basically said that when they evaluated the cost of Gripen they found that the figures submitted by SAAB were completely false. You can't get from SAAB's figure of 55 billion krone to Norway's figure of 195 billion krone without that being the case (if you assume the evaluation was conducted properly).

Indeed that will be an interesting debriefing.

As I've understood it, Saab were selling the Gripen NG to Norway through FMV (Swedish Defense Material Administration). The cost figures were supported by the FMV, who have more than 120,000 flight hours in the Gripen. If anyone would know, they know the operating costs. I'd think there would be less doubt regarding the Gripen numbers than regarding the F-35 since the F-35 is an entirely new platform and it's numbers could only be guesstimated from F-16, and perhaps F-22, numbers.

Hopefully we can get some answers to the increased operating costs for the Gripen in the RnoAF. I'm sure we'll hear something like: "When the RnoAF will operate with fellow NATO members, the Gripen NG will bring additional costs of XXX million NOK due to no commonality in platforms." (A requirement disqualifying the Gripen from the start.)

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-11-30 03:27:27 and read 8609 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 63):
Hopefully we can get some answers to the increased operating costs for the Gripen in the RnoAF. I'm sure we'll hear something like: "When the RnoAF will operate with fellow NATO members, the Gripen NG will bring additional costs of XXX million NOK due to no commonality in platforms." (A requirement disqualifying the Gripen from the start.)

It will be really interesting to hear! there must be huge costs outside the Gripen itself that we don't know about,due to the fact that the whole Gripen program for over 200 planes has cost 13 bilj. $, and Norway claims 48 plane would cost 24bilj. $.
And then,what does NATO version means?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: OyKIE
Posted 2008-11-30 05:02:43 and read 8582 times.



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 56):
There's almost no commonality. The biggest thing they have in common is the engine, or more precisely, the engine core. The F135 engine is a derivative of the F119 used in the Raptor but with slightly uprated thrust and no thrust vectoring. Other than that, they have very little in common besides their general shape. The Raptor is also substantially larger than the Lightning.



Quoting N328KF (Reply 58):
AvWeek says you're wrong. The same F-22 articles I mentioned above (from the January 8, 2007 edition) describe the avionics. The F-35's avionics are essentially a 'little sister' to the F-22. For instance, did you know they both use Firewire as their primary datacomm bus?



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 59):
Yeah, I did, but I don't know if I consider that a lot of commonality. They're both made of carbon fiber, so I guess thay have that in common too. I won't argue that the F-35 doesn't look like "mini-me" to the Raptor though.

Thank you for your answers. You gave me a better knowledge of what they have in common. I have read the article N328KF quotes, and that was a very interesting article. One argument I have seen in the press is that it is crucial for the JSF program that the F-22 airplane is funded until EIS of the JSF so I was led to believe that they might have more in common.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: MCIGuy
Posted 2008-11-30 12:40:00 and read 8503 times.



Quoting OyKIE (Reply 65):
One argument I have seen in the press is that it is crucial for the JSF program that the F-22 airplane is funded until EIS of the JSF so I was led to believe that they might have more in common.

Yeah, I think that's more about keeping the LockMart assembly line personell working. They want the folks who are currently building Raptors to smoothly transition right over to the Lightning line. There's also the issue of mothballing an entire shop.  Smile

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-12-05 06:57:28 and read 8201 times.

So it begins...
Although I did expect it, I didn't expect increased cost estimates this soon.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...6cAAABS&prod=100347&modele=feature

Interesting parts in the article:

Quote:
Norway did not obtain a firm price from Lockheed Martin for the Joint Strike Fighter...

I thought LM offered a firm price...

Quote:
The $3.27 billion price tag is also incomplete. It covers “48 fly-away aircraft (Unit Recurring Flyaway, or URF, price) including Alternate Mission Equipment (AME) but not weapons or spares,” Ramskjaer said.

...and that everything was included in the firm price...

Not that this will affect the choice of F-16 replacement. It just raises further questions about the different price calculations...

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-12-05 12:02:14 and read 8114 times.

I wonder if all this will have such a "domino effect" to the F-35 for ex. Denmark's decision to replace the old F-16,s.....Would't you want to know what to pay??

Quoting TGIF (Reply 67):
Norway did not obtain a firm price from Lockheed Martin for the Joint Strike Fighter



Quoting TGIF (Reply 67):
Not that this will affect the choice of F-16 replacement. It just raises further questions about the different price calculations...

SAAB should just get some clearance regarding the calculations and then leave this ASAP!

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-12-10 04:23:45 and read 7828 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 68):
SAAB should just get some clearance regarding the calculations and then leave this ASAP!

Saab has made a public response to the debriefing they have been given by Norway.

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRel...omments_on_norwegian_evalution.htm

Some highlights:

In the response to the fact that they didn't fulfill the operational requirements Saab says that the simulations were performed using Gripen parameters whish wasn't given to Norway. Info about these parameters were not requested and therefore not submitted. Thus, the simulations were not made with accurate Gripen data and do therefore not reflect on Gripen’s performance.

In response to the high life cycle cost Saab says that calculations only used 20% of the costs provided by Saab/FMV. The rest has been guesstimated by Norway based on their experience as an F-16 user.

The largest deviations in cost come from upgrade costs, crashes and fuel consumption.

- Upgrade costs were taken from their experience in F-16 upgrades
- They estimated that 50% of the fleet would have crashed in 35 years
- Though the RBI demands lower fuel consumption than current F-16, the calculations point to higher fuel costs than today.

I especially like this part:

Quote:
If the claimed estimates are correct it would be cheaper for Norway to obtain JSF, even if Sweden would have developed and given 48 Gripen Next Generation (NG) as a gift to Norway. It should be unreasonable.

One last comment to the "external quality inspection"

Quote:
The evaluation has undergone external quality inspection in Norway. Given that there are in our view many apparent unreasonable assumptions and calculations regarding the economic evaluation, it reasonably also casts some doubt over the operational evaluation.

To me, this "evaluation" is a joke and the Norwegian minister of defense should be ashamed for her bashing of the Gripen NG during the press conference. I fully respect Norway for choosing the F-35, it will definitely fulfill the needs. The F-35's number should speak for it self and I don't see a need to manipulate Gripen's figures in order to have the F-35 to come out on top. They are after all from different generations and if you have extreme survivability requirements against PAK FA’s and Russian double digit SAM’s there is only one alternative today (especially if Gripen can’t use it’s EW-suite, but that’s an unconfirmed rumor).

Hopefully there has been some light shed on the Norwegian evaluation so this won't affect future Gripen sales.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Alien
Posted 2008-12-10 06:45:52 and read 7803 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 69):
To me, this "evaluation" is a joke and the Norwegian minister of defense should be ashamed for her bashing of the Gripen

Sour Swedish grapes.

Here are some things not given in Saabs's reply. F-35 Acquisition costs 1/3 less than Gripen NG. Even if F-35 production run is cut in half costs would rise only about 20%. Uncle Sam, not LM is underwriting the price so that partners who buy the early units receive the same cost benefits as those who buy at the end of the production run.

F-35 life cycle costs projected to be lower than an F-16.

Since the production run will be in the thousands there will be a large worldwide spares and maintenance base in existence for decades.

Mid life upgrade program will be support by a user base in the thousands extending the benefits of economies of scale even into modernization costs.

None of these economic benefits of scale will apply to Gripen NG with a planned (optimistic) production run of about 200. during the height of production LM will turn out 200 F-35s in a single year.

So yes, Norway took all the data Saab and LM provided and then used it in the context of economic reality.

The part I really find laughable about Saabs response is that they try to use their 120,000 flight hour experience with Gripen and then say that experience selectively applies to Gripen NG.

So given that there will be a production run of 2000 F-35s (pessimistic) and a production run of 200 Gripen NG (very optimistic) is it any wonder that Norway came to the conclusion that it did.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-12-10 08:36:10 and read 7774 times.



Quoting Alien (Reply 70):
Sour Swedish grapes.

Of course Saab is upset. Their credibility is at stake because of Norway's inability to acquire correct data from the proposers and to evaluate them in a correct way. Do I need to remind you how a certain US aircraft manufacturer reacted when lost in a recent tanker competition?

Quoting Alien (Reply 70):
Here are some things not given in Saab's reply

Why would Saab comment on the F-35's capabilities and costs? This is about Norway's evaluation of the Gripen.

Quoting Alien (Reply 70):
F-35 Acquisition costs 1/3 less than Gripen NG.

Eh... the acquisition costs are about the same.

Gripen NG, simulators and mission support systems, initial training, initial spares; Fixed Price $2,87Bn + Specific Norwegian and NATO equipment and integration; $560Mn = $3,43Bn

F-35 cost: First quote was $2.57Bn, adjusted to $3.27Bn after some "currency exchange rate updates" (see post #67)

Quoting Alien (Reply 70):
None of these economic benefits of scale will apply to Gripen NG with a planned (optimistic) production run of about 200.

True, and yet I find it likely that the Gripen has a low total life cost. Why? Some examples:

- Gripen NG isn't an entirely new platform. The development costs for the Gripen A/B/C/D has been paid foe and only the development costs for the Gripen NG need to be covered.
- Since Norway and Sweden are neighbors, education, training, spares, maintenance etc. costs can be kept low.
- Sweden is currently doing an "MLU" on 30 of its Gripen A/B and these are known, low, costs for FMV. Similar upgrades will be available on Gripen NG. Perhaps Norway should have used these numbers instead of basing the costs on the F-16 MLU.
- One of the main design criteria for Gripen A/B was low LCC because of escalating costs on the Viggen. All these benefits have been passed down to the Gripen C/D and later Gripen NG.

Quoting Alien (Reply 70):
The part I really find laughable about Saab's response is that they try to use their 120,000 flight hour experience with Gripen and then say that experience selectively applies to Gripen NG.

You seem to lack understanding about the Gripen NG and its similarity to the Gripen C/D. Gripen's proven LCC is very much applicable to the Gripen NG. In this case, the 120,000 fh was used to demonstrate the Norwegian miscalculations in fuel cost. The F414 engine has millions of flight hours on the SH (and some in the Gripen NG Demonstrator) so these fuel-cost numbers are no secret.

The 120,000 fh would in my opinion give a far better grasp of the Gripen NG LCC, than what the ~50 test flights in the AA-1 contributes to the F-35 LCC estimates (But this is not about the F-35 costs, it's about the Gripen).

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-12-10 11:18:04 and read 7727 times.



Quoting Alien (Reply 70):
The part I really find laughable about Saabs response is that they try to use their 120,000 flight hour experience with Gripen and then say that experience selectively applies to Gripen NG.

so you find this more correct...

Quoting TGIF (Reply 69):
In response to the high life cycle cost Saab says that calculations only used 20% of the costs provided by Saab/FMV. The rest has been guesstimated by Norway based on their experience as an F-16 user.



Quoting Alien (Reply 70):
So yes, Norway took all the data Saab and LM provided and then used it in the context of economic reality.

Apparently not.......

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-12-11 08:40:13 and read 7609 times.

Saab has done new cost calculations based on the new information given to them by Norway at the press conference the 20th of November and during the briefing on the 4th of December.

http://www.saabgroup.com/NR/rdonlyre...way_saab_viewadditional_slides.pdf

When the new costs added, due to purchase of additional aircrafts and an extended service life, there are a still a 111Bn NOK, 60Bn vs 171Bn, (~$16Bn) difference in price estimations.

There is also a list on how Saab believes Norway got to 171Bn NOK. In that list there are costs of 75Bn NOK which Saab can't understand or trace.

The mystery continues...

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-12-19 12:03:15 and read 7287 times.

The Norwegian government has today officially asked the Norwegian parliment for permission to open negotiation with LM for delivery of 56 JSF.



The Norwegian parliment is yet to give approval for negotiation and approval of amount of planes etc as bases of negotiation.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2008-12-19 15:54:24 and read 7237 times.

hey, how did they go from 48 to 56?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-12-20 00:00:10 and read 7234 times.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 75):
hey, how did they go from 48 to 56?

A conclusion from the evaluation was that 52 aircrafts were needed to fulfill the operational needs and another 4 were needed for education. The number 48 was only something for the RBI-phase.

The government says in their proposal to the parliament that the number 56 may change. Up or down? That I don't know.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 74):
The Norwegian parliment is yet to give approval for negotiation and approval of amount of planes etc as bases of negotiation.

I thought this approval was scheduled for the 19th of December. When do you expect it? After the holidays?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2008-12-20 04:31:24 and read 7201 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 76):
I thought this approval was scheduled for the 19th of December. When do you expect it? After the holidays?

I beleave that 19th of december was the original date set for the announcment of what plane to go for by the government. The announcment came several weeks in advance and took both Saab and LK by surprise back ten, remember ?

What we are waiting for now is a bill in the parliment, allowing the government to proceed further into negotiations with LM about number of planes, etc

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2008-12-20 06:52:49 and read 7178 times.



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 77):
The announcment came several weeks in advance and took both Saab and LK by surprise back ten, remember ?

Yeah, who will ever forget that.  Wink

I thought an announcement could be made around the 15th and that the bill would be passed the 19th. Perhaps I'm naive thinking political decisions need this short time period.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Art
Posted 2009-01-19 05:11:54 and read 6589 times.

Based on initial indications and inquiries from Obama’s transition team, Air Force Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis said he’s confident the F-35 program begun during the Clinton administration will continue, even if budget restraints force scale-backs. Davis made the comments here as keynote speaker at a Brookings Institution forum, “The Joint Strike Fighter and Beyond.”

“Support throughout what appears to be three administrations has been relatively consistent,” he said. “As of yet, we see no reason that that support is going to change. There is nobody on Capitol Hill who has said they want to cancel the Joint Strike Fighter.”

That doesn’t mean, he acknowledged, that the program to develop the next-generation strike aircraft weapon system for the Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and allied countries might not get scaled back.

Davis conceded he gets many questions about the F-35’s cost -- expected to be $80 million to $90 million, depending on the variant -- and delivery schedule. And if fewer aircraft are built, each will cost even more.


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...g&cat=3&prod=101452&modele=release

How exactly does that square with $US2.54 billion for 48 aircraft - about $US53 million each?

UPDATE 4-Norway picks U.S. combat jet over Swedish rival
Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:26pm EST

* Deal for 48 planes worth around $2.54 bln


http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...UtilitiesNews/idUSLK45092820081120

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: TGIF
Posted 2009-01-20 11:44:23 and read 6459 times.



Quoting Art (Reply 79):
How exactly does that square with $US2.54 billion for 48 aircraft - about $US53 million each?

It doesn't IMO... This is although closer: Norway’s JSF Price Tag is $3.2 Billion and Rising

A guy on another forum tried to explain it by saying (but I have yet to find a reliable source for this) that future cost increases wont affect the Norwegian (or any other partner nation) since a fixed price has been negotiated. Any rise in price would, according to him, be payed by the American tax payers.

However, Norway haven't been offered a fixed price (there won't be one until ~2013 according to Ares blog) and therefore they're are, in the event of cost increases, likely affected.

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2009-03-19 14:29:33 and read 5323 times.



Quoting TGIF (Reply 80):
However, Norway haven't been offered a fixed price (there won't be one until ~2013 according to Ares blog) and therefore they're are, in the event of cost increases, likely affected.

True,according to media in Denmark,Norway and Sweden,pricetag for one Norwegian F-35 is now for the plane alone 130 US million $ / plane, and close to 500 US million $ for its life support. Norway don't commit to the plane until they know what to pay for it,and Denmark is following this carefully with a decision late June 2009,with rumor to decrease the order by 50% to about 25 plane ore at the best up to 30! Perhaps some  goodvibes  at Boeing?

Topic: RE: Norway To Buy JSF
Username: Brendows
Posted 2009-03-20 01:13:58 and read 5213 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 81):
True,according to media in Denmark,Norway and Sweden,pricetag for one Norwegian F-35 is now for the plane alone 130 US million $ / plane, and close to 500 US million $ for its life support.

There's much confusion on how much a F-35 will cost, and I'd that's because there are several types of prices, and I wouldn't be surprised if the general media couldn't tell them apart.

To quote a member i trust on this matter on a defense forum:

Quote:
We were talking average fly-away cost (AUFC) in 2008 dollars for the F-35A. That's 70-75 million usd.

GAO is talking about program unit acquisition cost (PAUC) for all variants in then-year dollars, which according to GAO is 122 million usd (2034?).


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