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Topic: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Nitepilot79
Posted 2009-03-23 18:13:34 and read 9337 times.

When Air Force One gets replaced, which Boeing aircraft would best suit for the replacement? Any ideas? I say the 747-8!  Cool

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: M11Stephen
Posted 2009-03-23 18:15:24 and read 9335 times.

I doubt it will be replaced for a while. A 777-300ER seems likely IMO because of its similar size to the 742 and it has great range. The whole 747-8 program is sketchy at this point.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Adipasqu
Posted 2009-03-23 18:31:49 and read 9259 times.

The $64 million question is: will the next AF1 be a 2 or 4 holler???

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2009-03-23 18:33:16 and read 9257 times.

Will this 'new' Air Force One thread ever die.....?????

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2009-03-23 18:33:25 and read 9258 times.



Quoting Adipasqu (Reply 2):
The $64 million question is: will the next AF1 be a 2 or 4 holler???

As much as I don't want to say it, I have a bad feeling it'll be a 2 holer.

My money is on the 787.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2009-03-23 18:34:59 and read 9243 times.

Given the world financial mess at the moment, and that the 742's currently used are in top notch condition, is a new AF1 really needed at the moment?

Sure it will eventually need to be replaced. But I dont think anybody in Washington should even dare talk about it it in the current financial climate. Especially after mr Obama has decided to go and chase Wall Street for their excesses. Not a good look politically.

That being said the answer is simple. Whatever is boeing's largest product on offer at the time, unless we start seeing another large airframe locally manufacturered in the USA. Highly unlikely but not impossible if you saw some kind of Airbus-Lockheed joint venture. In the current environment i wouldn't bet on it but if things get messy enough all of these companies as we know them may look very different in 10 years time.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2009-03-23 18:35:11 and read 9243 times.

Check out "Military&Space" forum. My answer none, US can´t afford it.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: 1337Delta764
Posted 2009-03-23 18:35:18 and read 9243 times.

I would say the 777-200LR, due to its extensive range.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Adipasqu
Posted 2009-03-23 18:36:28 and read 9222 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 4):
My money is on the 787.

Way too small to replace the VC-25A's. Maybe the 777-300ER equivalent when the 777 line gets the 787 technology.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Heathrow
Posted 2009-03-23 18:36:53 and read 9226 times.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
Check out "Military&Space" forum. My answer none, US can´t afford it.

Not now, but in the future, it will need to be replaced.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: JBo
Posted 2009-03-23 18:38:46 and read 9212 times.

I seriously doubt that a replacement for the VC-25s will be considered, let alone ordered, during the Obama Administration.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: AFGMEL
Posted 2009-03-23 18:44:07 and read 9159 times.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 4):
My money is on the 787.

I would think they would prefer an aircraft which contains more "Made in the USA" cred.  devil 

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Nitepilot79
Posted 2009-03-23 18:54:31 and read 9067 times.



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Will this 'new' Air Force One thread ever die.....?????

Sorry bro, didn't mean to cramp your style, the question remains valid though, as that 747 is OLD, those 757s have to be aging by now too. An airframe can only handle so much. Should we build a replica of the 1st 742? Or how about a rebuilt Concorde? Perhaps a bit much, but a bitchin, idea  laughing 

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Daleaholic
Posted 2009-03-23 18:55:04 and read 9064 times.

I think the USAF would always choose a 4 engined aircraft for the primary Air Force One aircraft, purely based on the safety of having more than one engine left if one fails...

That's my opinion anyway. But like stated above, AF1 is in near perfect condition. It's unlikely that the aircraft will need replacing anytime soon.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Adipasqu
Posted 2009-03-23 18:57:35 and read 9048 times.



Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 12):
that 747 is OLD, those 757s have to be aging by now too

Very low cycles + best maintenance money can buy = those birds will still be flying government VIP's well beyond 2020.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2009-03-23 19:00:56 and read 9025 times.

747-8i to replace 747-200s

787 and 737 Replacement to replace 757/737s

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2009-03-23 19:04:24 and read 8988 times.

Quoting Daleaholic (Reply 13):
That's my opinion anyway. But like stated above, AF1 is in near perfect condition. It's unlikely that the aircraft will need replacing anytime soon.

I believe Obama is actually the one that will pick the replacement that will come out in 2017. It doesn't matter if it's "in near perfect condition" ...it's getting replaced.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
Check out "Military&Space" forum. My answer none, US can´t afford it.

Call the US Government and thell them that they can't afford it. I'm sure you'll be met with a a laugh and a hang up.

[Edited 2009-03-23 19:07:35]

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: 777STL
Posted 2009-03-23 19:05:03 and read 8986 times.



Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 12):
Sorry bro, didn't mean to cramp your style, the question remains valid though, as that 747 is OLD, those 757s have to be aging by now too.

An aircraft's useful life isn't determined by age - moreso by cycles and number of hours in the air - both of which the VC25s are very low on. Theoretically, these birds could last forever at the current rate they're being utilized.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-03-23 19:25:52 and read 8899 times.

There is already a request out for concepts, and Airbus just declined to bid.

The 748 is the obvious choice.

An alternative is to retrofit the current aircraft.

As for Obama not ordering them? He has no problem spending money on government things. He's spent large sums redecorating the West Wing. All he'll say is that these create jobs for Americans and are necessary, and people will say fine.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 17):
An aircraft's useful life isn't determined by age - moreso by cycles and number of hours in the air - both of which the VC25s are very low on. Theoretically, these birds could last forever at the current rate they're being utilized.

Most people say this without doing the research.

I did the research.

The VC-25s are getting old by AF1 standards, and will ultimately be the oldest primary AF1s in the history of the designation by the time they are replaced even if the planes are ordered tomorrow, as they wouldn't be in service before 2014.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Wedgetail737
Posted 2009-03-23 19:28:07 and read 8884 times.



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 1):
I doubt it will be replaced for a while.



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 5):
Given the world financial mess at the moment, and that the 742's currently used are in top notch condition, is a new AF1 really needed at the moment?



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 6):
My answer none, US can´t afford it.



Quoting Heathrow (Reply 9):
Not now, but in the future, it will need to be replaced.

All of you apparent don't remember or don't realize that the US Government is already soliciting Boeing and Airbus for a RFP for a replacement of the VC-25A. Airbus has already stated that they will not participate in the RFP.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2009-03-23 19:30:56 and read 8863 times.



Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 16):
Call the US Government and thell them that they can't afford it. I'm sure you'll be met with a a laugh and a hang up.

Oh they can afford it all right. It's a question of priorieties. Is a new imperial barge needed at the moment for the head of state when he is telling everybody to pull in the belt, stick to gether and well, that money could simply be put to more productive use in a difficult time. Perception is everything in politics. Sometimes to the rediculous. See the situation with the UK and its complete lack of anything suitable for the PM. At least during the thatcher days you could use the VC-10, and even though there's still a few of them about its far past its used by date, and a joke when you consider that heads of state in northern african republics are ordering A345s. (once again probably too excessive... opposite end of the spectrum).

Given this, I think the US has the right balance at the moment. Something that can do the job well for the moment, and they can wait until things are in a bit of a happier general mood before they order a replacement. If they want to do anything they can always do some interior rennovations.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: A380US
Posted 2009-03-23 19:46:38 and read 8767 times.



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Will this 'new' Air Force One thread ever die.....?????

It will go with NW DC-9's  duck   duck   duck 
O wait no more NW lol


Back on topic,
I think the 777-300ER
the 200 is too small and the LR is not necessary considering the aircrafts in air fueling capabilities.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2009-03-23 19:51:51 and read 8730 times.



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 20):
Is a new imperial barge needed at the moment for the head of state when he is telling everybody to pull in the belt, stick to gether and well, that money could simply be put to more productive use in a difficult time.

Two 748s would not be paid for in 2009, but in 3 years for the frames, and then over the next 2 years for the modifications.

If Obama says "things not going to get better so we can't afford to buy planes 3-5 years from now" his words will help to prolong the recession, not help end it.

Not to mention that in the grand scheme of the $3T budget and such, $800M spread out over 3-4 years starting 3 years from now is a penny in the bottomless well. That's at most $400M in any one year period, or 0.01% of the budget. On something that creates jobs in America...

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Rwy04LGA
Posted 2009-03-23 19:53:48 and read 8720 times.



Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 12):
An airframe can only handle so much.

Ask a mechanic about the Boeing-made, Air Force-maintained B-52.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 17):
An aircraft's useful life isn't determined by age - more so by cycles and number of hours in the air - both of which the VC25s are very low on. Theoretically, these birds could last forever at the current rate they're being utilized.

Ask a mechanic about the Boeing-made, Air Force-maintained VC-25.

Neither of these birds are anywhere NEAR retirement.

Boeing has the most experience in making large aircraft, while the USAF has the best aircraft maintenance.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: 0NEWAIR0
Posted 2009-03-23 19:54:24 and read 8710 times.



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 20):
Given this, I think the US has the right balance at the moment. Something that can do the job well for the moment, and they can wait until things are in a bit of a happier general mood before they order a replacement. If they want to do anything they can always do some interior rennovations.

You're point is taken; however, whether made public or not during the global recession I bet you that the Obama administration will select the replacements for all presidential aircraft in this term. The planes wont be delivered until 2017 but I'll bet almost anything that Obama will be the one making the selection.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Trystero
Posted 2009-03-23 20:41:41 and read 8558 times.

No plane is better than a 747!

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2009-03-23 22:31:51 and read 8645 times.



Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 24):
You're point is taken; however, whether made public or not during the global recession I bet you that the Obama administration will select the replacements for all presidential aircraft in this term. The planes wont be delivered until 2017 but I'll bet almost anything that Obama will be the one making the selection.

Very good point. Of course it could be ordered and it kept somewhat quiet until a later more popular date, under some 'defence' project that doesnt have to be made completely public.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
f Obama says "things not going to get better so we can't afford to buy planes 3-5 years from now" his words will help to prolong the recession, not help end it.

Very good point. And I think he's not going to say something to discourage anybody. But he can't say 'No more wall street fat cats" and then look like one himself. Still the solution is obvious. Quietly select the aircraft, reserve the production line slots and then wait for a few years to make the order official, by which time memories of Citigroup being forced to scrap falcon jets and chasing after wall street fat cat's bonus payouts will be long forgotton.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Babybus
Posted 2009-03-23 22:40:46 and read 8607 times.

The way things are in the world these days could I suggest the Boeing 737-200 series?

I presume the President would want to stay with Boeing rather than follow the global trend toward Airbus.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2009-03-24 05:20:06 and read 8456 times.



Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 12):

Sorry bro, didn't mean to cramp your style, the question remains valid though,

Not when the same subject gets asked 50 times a year. A quick search will find endless threads on this subject.... and those are just the ones the moderators did not delete

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: EMBQA
Posted 2009-03-24 06:10:07 and read 8428 times.



Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 12):
as that 747 is OLD, those 757s have to be aging by now too. An airframe can only handle so much

......oh and age has nothing to do with it. Only one thing kills an aircraft...cycles...and since the VC-25 is one of the lowest time/cycle 747 in the world it's a safe bet it is not going anywhere for a long time.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Kingairta
Posted 2009-03-24 09:46:29 and read 8309 times.

People forget were talking about the Govt here as well.

While the current VC-25 may be in good condition now you have to look to the future. If everything was put on hold when the plane is in need of replacement it'll be years and years before it is ever replaced. And in the long run that could leave the 89th not having the plane/s they need.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Ex52tech
Posted 2009-03-24 14:16:53 and read 8114 times.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 29):
oh and age has nothing to do with it. Only one thing kills an aircraft...cycles...and since the VC-25 is one of the lowest time/cycle 747 in the world it's a safe bet it is not going anywhere for a long time.

Exactly!!!
I can not believe that they are talking about replacing the current VC-25s. I would not like to see the next AF ONE to be a two engine airplane, there is a certain amount of safety that you just can not get with two engines.

[Edited 2009-03-24 14:17:32]

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2009-03-24 15:04:45 and read 8095 times.



Quoting Kingairta (Reply 30):
And in the long run that could leave the 89th not having the plane/s they need.

I think definitely given some commercial aircraft have gone past 30 years of active service (think NWA 742s, still active IIRC, 100k+ hours), 30 years of NW service is roughly 90 years in AF1 service. Let's compromise at 60. Then, VC-25 should be pretty solid until the year 2050.

The problem is far more likely manufacturer support. The 742 is on its way out of commercial service. Its final decade is upon us. The USAF might find difficulties maintaining an orphan fleet of a type nobody flies anymore (think Lockheed Tristar). So that's the one reason I can see an early sunset for the VC-25. Shoulda been 744...

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Oroka
Posted 2009-03-24 15:52:37 and read 8069 times.



Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):
Shoulda been 744...

But isnt the VC-25s a hybrid between the 742 and the 744? I am pretty sure the VC-25s got a lot of stuff that was in line for the 744.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: DL767captain
Posted 2009-03-24 16:09:36 and read 8063 times.



Quoting M11Stephen (Reply 1):
The whole 747-8 program is sketchy at this point.

I have no idea where you get this idea, the 748i program doesn't have a ton of orders but the 748f has plenty of orders and has already started assembly the program is fine.

There are really only three options for the next AF1, 777, 787, 748. It will not be an Airbus aircraft, people flipped out when Marine One wasn't going to be a US made helicopter.

777: They really have two options, 777-200LR or the 777-300ER. Both would be excellent, if they wanted to downsize the 777-200LR would give them incredible range with the light load they usually take, they would rarely need inflight refueling. But the 777-300ER keeps them at about the same size as the current AF1 and I doubt they are looking at downsizing. Problem is the 777 is still only a two engined plane, sure it can fly on one engine for a while but would they really take the chance with the president when they could easily have a 4 holer?

787: I think the 787 will be too small for AF1. you would have to get the 787-10 just to get to the size of a 777 so there is no real point. Yes the plane would be very efficient but it's just too small. Now the 787 would make an interesting replacement for the 757s, or even in addition to the 757s.

748: This is probably going to be the next AF1 (and with multiple VIP orders, enough to replace both AF1s and E-4Bs, it could have already been ordered). It gives them some more growth over the existing AF1 and remains a 4 holer. I just don't see them being alright having the possibility of one engine failing on a 777 and having to land for a replacement when on a 747 they would need two to fail before that was truly required.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2009-03-24 16:23:27 and read 8051 times.

The Executive Branch would lobby for the 747-8I for no other reason than because that's what the public "expects" when they see Air Force One. To the vast majority of the public, Americans and abroad, Air Force One isn't a call-sign, it's those two 747s painted in blue and white.

Roll-up in a 777 or 787 and the public is going to feel snubbed.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: HercPPMX
Posted 2009-03-24 17:43:55 and read 8001 times.



Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):
The problem is far more likely manufacturer support. The 742 is on its way out of commercial service. Its final decade is upon us. The USAF might find difficulties maintaining an orphan fleet of a type nobody flies anymore (think Lockheed Tristar). So that's the one reason I can see an early sunset for the VC-25. Shoulda been 744...

Support could indeed become a problem, I'm am fairly confident that the USAF realizes this and would probably easily justify the creation of a stock-pile of parts for the aircraft vs. procurement of a new fleet of more modern aircrafts. Who knows there maybe one already, I remember on a TV show a few months ago on National Geographic channel that they said most planes wait until something brakes to replace them, The VC-25 has it's parts replaced at the first sign of wear.
Also I don't think any manufacture would really turn it's back on an Aircraft that not only represents the POTUS but also the United States itself. Just my $0.02

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Ex52tech
Posted 2009-03-25 06:39:50 and read 7799 times.

Just park some 742s and 744s in the bone yard, and you have a supply of parts for the VC-25s.
For the specialized parts that are common only to the VC-25, well turn some of them out that you think you will need to maintain the fleet.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: PC12Fan
Posted 2009-03-25 07:57:03 and read 7790 times.

Here's a good idea of what the 777-300ER would look like at any rate...


Aviation-Design.Net:
Click here for bigger photo!
Design © MARIO GASPARELLA
Template © Remi Dallot



As well as the 748.



Big version: Width: 1250 Height: 754 File size: 629kb
748i as AF1

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Par13del
Posted 2009-03-25 08:44:02 and read 7740 times.

The B-748 seems to have been a better made pic, the B-777 has too many windows, they appear to be unmodified from the pax version.
Reduce the windows on the B-777 pic and we can have a real comparison of beauty.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Mir
Posted 2009-03-25 11:11:54 and read 7676 times.



Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
I would say the 777-200LR, due to its extensive range.

Aerial refueling capability kind of cancels that out.

Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 12):
that 747 is OLD

And the maintenance those things get cancels that out. The VC-25s get the tenderest of care from the Air Force.

I'd put money on a 748.

-Mir

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: DL767captain
Posted 2009-03-26 11:38:50 and read 7370 times.



Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Aerial refueling capability kind of cancels that out.

It would probably be nice if they could fly longer without having to refuel though, lets say there are 80 people onboard the 772LR could fly forever!

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 38):
Here's a good idea of what the 777-300ER would look like at any rate...

Looks pretty bad to me, it reminds me of the 707 a little

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: N829th
Posted 2009-03-26 14:25:50 and read 7330 times.

Even though the 777 would function as a great AF1, half of the reason they fly the 742 right now is because of the reputation and the look of that monster aircraft rolling onto your ramp. The AF1 pilot that flew Bush around works for a flight department now next to me and we're had a few chances to talk and have him tell me a few stories. He told me that flying the 742 was way overkill most of the time for a lot of the missions they went on. But it was important to carry that reputation along with them wherever they flew. For that reason alone i say they will use the 748. However, I like the idea of replacing the 737 and 757 with the 787.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1
Username: DEVILFISH
Posted 2009-03-26 19:26:21 and read 7273 times.



Quoting Babybus (Reply 27):
The way things are in the world these days could I suggest the Boeing 737-200 series?

I presume the President would want to stay with Boeing rather than follow the global trend toward Airbus.

In view of which, one may also recommend your namesake for the Queen's Flight and Brown Force One, as they seem more in need of it.....  Wink


http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...318/images/8661/ba-airbus-a318.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/airbusa318/images/8669/ba-airbus-a318.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...318/images/8669/ba-airbus-a318.jpg

Just change the livery to suit!  cheerful   thumbsup 

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Dtw9
Posted 2009-03-26 20:20:31 and read 7270 times.

In this age of cutbacks, and with the number of people out of work,I think the appropriate next generation Air force One should look like this.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: DL767captain
Posted 2009-03-28 09:32:05 and read 7079 times.



Quoting N829th (Reply 42):
He told me that flying the 742 was way overkill most of the time for a lot of the missions they went on. But it was important to carry that reputation along with them wherever they flew. For that reason alone i say they will use the 748. However, I like the idea of replacing the 737 and 757 with the 787.

Like when he came to long beach the other week? It was complete overkill but it still looked pretty cool having that large of a plane sitting there ready to go at a moments notice, if Obama pulled up in a 737 he would just be laughed at.

Topic: RE: Which Boeing Model Is Best For New Air Force 1?
Username: Par13del
Posted 2009-03-28 10:20:30 and read 7062 times.



Quoting N829th (Reply 42):
The AF1 pilot that flew Bush around works for a flight department now next to me and we're had a few chances to talk and have him tell me a few stories. He told me that flying the 742 was way overkill most of the time for a lot of the missions they went on. But it was important to carry that reputation along with them wherever they flew

It's somewhat puzzling that some one who actually flew the a/c seemed to think that it was only for transportation from point A to point B.

Bummer.


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