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Topic: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2010-12-21 06:07:27 and read 17554 times.

Subjective topic I know but I was wondering which air forces generally have the best trained pilots and crew? Are there air forces that are renowned as very good at one thing, but not so good at another? For instance the RAF might be renowned as some of the best strike pilots out there, but not great when it comes to dogfighting because they have not had a genuine dogfighter to use for a very long time until the Tiffy turned up.

I guess it comes down to training by nations as well - I can imagine the Israelis are very good because they are trained by the Americans - same for the Singaporeans I guess?

What about the Russians? Indians? French? Italian? German? Swedes? Any underdogs that have surprised a lot of people at Red Flag etc?

I know its a big generalisation - I'm just curious in people's experiences and opinions.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: hka098
Posted 2010-12-21 06:24:15 and read 17554 times.

I think there are some great pilots in every air force. How is that type of talent cultivated in their environments?

I would say the U.S. has some of the best-trained pilots out there. I would also give the RAF pilots, Israeli pilots, French and German pilots the same credit. Russia certainly has some great talent, they just probably do not get the hours.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: arniepie
Posted 2010-12-21 06:46:51 and read 17540 times.

Not that I am in any way knowledgeable about the workings of military aviation but shouldn't the question better be;
"which military has the most effective military (fighter) pilot training program ?"
In which case a strong case could be made for the Israeli method of continuous competition between pilots during training whereby only the top ranked get to operate the best and most demanding platforms disregarding age seniority and rank.

Also I seem to remember that even the USAF still evaluates other air-forces training methods and sometimes adapt their own programs if they notice an improvement.
As an example , I seem to remember that after the first Cope-India exchange they noticed that more blue on blue should be trained iso focusing too much on DACT tactics.

Best ones probably are (pure guessing from my part);
-IDF/IAF
-US armed forces (all)
-RAAF
-AdlA
-South Koreans
-.............

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2010-12-21 06:59:43 and read 17535 times.

Reason i ask is that I'm writing a novel - a fictional account of a war in about five or six years time between an islamic coalition of Pakistan, Iran and Syria against the other countries in the region, and of course the American and NATO forces in Afghanistan and surrounding areas.

A charismatic religious leader rises up from the ashes of a succeeded coup in Iran and unites the willing to form a brotherhood of Islam, determined to retake the MEG region as "their" homeland - and to rid it of the poisons of the west. Starting with a mass cruise missile attack on the Saudi's and a simultaneous pre-emptive mass cruise missile attack on two of the three the American carrier groups in the Gulf, causing the loss of both groups, and much of the Saudi air power in the region.

Naturally things go the way of the pear. UAE, Qatar and the fledgling Iraqi state adopt a totally defensive posture, as Iranian armour crosses the border into Iraq almost uncontested. The Gulf is totally blocked off as the Iranian and Pakistani supersonic ASM cruise missiles are dominant, because the US does not have enough Aegis ships to counter them in huge numbers and cannot protect the carrier or MEF groups so the third group is forced to withdraw.

The US/NATO forces in the region are cut off as air supremacy is lost, bases are overrun, and one by one, the smaller Gulf states are taken apart due to weight of numbers in the air and an inability to counter long-range cruise missiles from Iran.

Seeing their chance, the North Koreans launch a massive land offensive into South Korea.

As i said - its a hugely far fetched scenario, and a massively ambitious project - think Red Storm Rising for the 21st Century - but its been something ive been trying to write for a while, and am about half way through it - 650 pages on Word and the shooting hasnt started yet!

I'm keen to ensure the narrative is as realistic as possible, even if the premise is (very) far fetched.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: arniepie
Posted 2010-12-21 08:23:52 and read 17487 times.

Sounds very interesting, when taking into account the region you talk about I think you should definately include the Indians, they certainly never would go for an Islamic super villan state on their front door, let alone one with Pakistan involved.

also Turkey must be a deciding factor, they are military the biggest power in the region and also won't like it one bit if Iran and Syria decide joining forces and dominating basically the entire middle east.
Their military are among the best trained and their military culture is certainly not inclined to be religiously inspired, they are infact a strong secular force in the region and are not afraid of using its power (with all help available from their NATO members) , certainly the US and also the UK which has a historic interest in the region.
The biggest Joker will undoubtly be the Russians, still a big force to be reckoned with and with the Chinese having their hands full with your Korean outburst , they certainly will be eager to force a better position for themselves in the ME region.

But I'm getting carried away, I'll be interested how your story will evolve, lots of potential.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: CHRISBA777ER
Posted 2010-12-21 08:53:44 and read 17461 times.

Quoting arniepie (Reply 4):
Sounds very interesting, when taking into account the region you talk about I think you should definately include the Indians, they certainly never would go for an Islamic super villan state on their front door, let alone one with Pakistan involved.

also Turkey must be a deciding factor, they are military the biggest power in the region and also won't like it one bit if Iran and Syria decide joining forces and dominating basically the entire middle east.
Their military are among the best trained and their military culture is certainly not inclined to be religiously inspired, they are infact a strong secular force in the region and are not afraid of using its power (with all help available from their NATO members) , certainly the US and also the UK which has a historic interest in the region.
The biggest Joker will undoubtly be the Russians, still a big force to be reckoned with and with the Chinese having their hands full with your Korean outburst , they certainly will be eager to force a better position for themselves in the ME region.

But I'm getting carried away, I'll be interested how your story will evolve, lots of potential.

It will be my second novel. PM me if you want me to send you a few passages.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-12-21 09:54:29 and read 17410 times.

In that region you mean?


1) Well India and turkey would be two competently trained air forces at each geographic extreme of this axis plus the Israelis

2) problem is when do see these events happening? Because by 2025 Israel hardly sees a massed full on 67-73 style air attack as feasible - they are moving their forces into about only 200 fighters (75+ F-35, 24 F-15I and 110 F-16 Block 50-52) with the rest being drones for prolonged attrition, counter-insurgency, targeted elimination style scenarios.

So while they are undeniably the best in the region the possibility arises that they can be overwhelmed by sheer attrition.and weight of numbers.

3) The UAEAF should be a major player in your gaming... most of its pilots are PAF ones on long term contracts... so if Pakistan joins this coalition, you can see a mass defection of the UAEAF a-la the Iraqi air-force flight to Iran in 91.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
Islamic coalition of Pakistan, Iran and Syria

Huge logical problems here.

Iran is Jafaari(shia) (97%) and Pakistan is Sunni (80%+) and Syria has a Sunni majority but ruled by an Alawite(shia)-Christian alliance in power.

Syria has thus far supported Iran only because the power structure is Shia. In Pakistan it is impossible to see that happen because the army, industries et al are all heavily Sunni and a Sunni-shia alliance - forget about it..... you'd rather see an Iran-Israel alliance.

The logical axis would be a Shia block - emerging against a Wahabi block so

Iran (jafaari shia) Syria (entrenched alawite shia ruling class) Lebanon (shia mjority though no census has been held there since 1926) Iraq (jafaari shia majority - same as Iran) Azerbaijan ( jafaari shia majority - same as iran) Baharain (jafaari shia majority same as Iran - and a shaky Sunni monarchy)


2nd logical problem though would be - if a coup happens in Iran - it will uproot the hold of the mullahs - hence a pan shia alliance would be less likely - rather than more likely.

3rd problem.... right now syria and iran are united because of Lebanon, Iraq - common interests and common enemies. ... there are already signs that the "common interests" and "common enemies" are no longer so common and the alliance is showing strains .... http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article.../14/the_missing_assassin?page=full

Quoting arniepie (Reply 4):
they certainly never would go for an Islamic super villan state on their front door, let alone one with Pakistan involved.

there are 2 rule of warfare 1) You never invade Russia 2) You never invade china from the east - Plus you have one more rule that has held for the last 1100 years - EVERY - REPEAT EVERY invasion of India succeeds. As a general rule Indians fight bravely - but always loose - collapse like dominoes - and end up being occupied.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
UAE, Qatar and the fledgling Iraqi state adopt a totally defensive posture

Not Iraq - Iraq will become an Iranian puppet the moment the US withdraws. in fact US troops are bolstering Irans grip on baghdad................... a spectacular own goal.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
and of course the American and NATO forces in Afghanistan and surrounding areas.

If Pakistan and Iran team up no matter what the force levels - NATO in afg will be slaughtered.... Pakistan will work the Sunni Pashto's (who alos comprise 45% of the Pakistani officer core) and Iran will work the Shia Hazaras. .... between them they will control about 90% of Afghanistan's population

AND - they will choke off NATO's supply route. I doubt Russia will allow transit since they'd love to see Americans kicked out of their backyard.

If you're not upto speed with wikileaks on this region - basically every single cable from Islamabad, Kabul and Delhi all accept that the ISI (pakistani military intelligence) are supporting the Taliban and Pakistani army aid to the insurgents is FAR GREATER than any Iranian aid. So NATO's greatest public ally in the region is also its biggest private enemy - the face behind the mask.

[Edited 2010-12-21 10:47:12]

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: chuchoteur
Posted 2010-12-21 10:03:06 and read 17398 times.

... don't forget that the UAE are evolving into a big platform for allied troops, with the new deepwater harbour/base housing elements of the french navy, as well as a small fighter wing stationed out there.

The UAE also have a good training program for their armed forces, and they seem to be getting there.
The french also have a platform that can be used to base assets in Djibouti.

Israel would never let Iran get too close, and they do have some nuclear capability that they are capable of projecting a fair distance away...

Agree that Turkey has the means to influence the situation and occupy terain, as well as a vested ongoing interest in the region (especially the northern border with Iraq) due to the kurdish population there...

Jordan could decide to look the other way, who knows...

Disagree with Russia's capabilty to project forces in significant numbers into the region quickly. Lots of equipment, but a big lack in training in recent years has affected their capabilities... Same, I'd be cautious about Iran's capability to project troups and armour in a significant way. They've equipped defensively recently, and have upgraded their missile systems, but armour still remains in short supply I'd say.

Air superiority is a big thing to cover a ground invasion, and there is potentially a lot of equipment available in the area to fend off the limited numbers of fighter and ground attack aircraft that Iran has. This implies that they'd have to hit some major airbases to suppress airborne assets before setting off across the border...

Also, even though you write off 2 carrier groups, do not underestimate the submarine warfare component. The USA and NATO forces still have a large number of attack submarines, capable of launching tomahawk cruise missiles (cf NATO ops in Kosovo, during which the UK Royal Navy validated the tomahawk launcher for their attack subs). These are capable of providing some area interdiction capability... definitely at least disrupt major supply lines and comms centres.

I would not underestimate China.
They've been building up capability, have strong ambitions in the middle east, and are almost ready for a bluewater navy. Significantly, they've performed their first deployment of naval assets into the gulf region in support of anti-piracy ops... and they're the only guys around willing to discuss nuclear warfare in terms of acceptable losses after a first strike.

North Korea would only invade the South if they thought the Chinese would be ok with that. The position of China on Islam is not favourable, they have some issues with muslim ethnic minorities in the north west of China, and I doubt they'd support an islamic coalition...

India would definitely have an interesting role to play...

To be fair, you could write a PhD thesis in geopolitics instead of a novel!
:o)

Best of luck!

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: chuchoteur
Posted 2010-12-21 10:09:54 and read 17384 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):
Huge logical problems here.

Agreed!

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):
AND - they will choke off NATO's supply route. I doubt Russia will allow transit since they'd love to see Americans kicked out of their backyard.

Not so sure about this one.
Russia is quite worried about the fragile republics serving as a buffer for its southern borders.
In actual fact they've allowed a lot of transit through, it's just that there are no logical major supply routes that can then connect down and serve the southern afghanistan region.

A number of NATO air assets (tankers amongst others) are based in those republics along the southern border...
And Russia is coming back into the fray with technical advisors to Afghanistan.
If anything, they're quite happy for someone else (NATO) taking a hit and trying to hold that region - serves their interests...

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-12-21 10:18:47 and read 17375 times.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 7):
The position of China on Islam is not favourable,
Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 7):
and I doubt they'd support an islamic coalition...

No sorry this doesn't hold

they're the ones who violated the NPT and gave pakistan both its nuclear bomb designs as well as its start up fissile materiel.... and Pakistan provided Iran and Libya the same technology. They also sold the Saudi's 70 of the 3000km range DF-2 missiles violating the MTCR. Used repeated veto's and threats of veto to block sanctions against the islamist government of Sudan, as well as being the chief backer of the hotbed of world terrorism Pakistan.

In return the Islamic world (except turkey) ignores the plight of their uighur brethren in China..... except turkey can't because the uighurs are ethnic Turks.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
The US/NATO forces in the region are cut off as air supremacy is lost,

remember air supremacy isn't everything. Lebanon 2006 was proof of concept. The Israelis thought they could win using their air force alone - and that proved not to be the case. Remember Hizbollah is a Shia, iran backed, financed and trained organisation..................... and the Lebanon 2006 was an indication of Iranian thinking as to how to counter overwhelming air superiority.

Also remember hizbollah managed to hit an Israeli stealth corvette - the INS Hanit - using a "junk" Chinese subsonic missile.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-12-21 10:27:58 and read 17359 times.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 8):
Not so sure about this one.

True - i agree with that - but i dont think they will tolerate a "snake in the belly for too long". Counter insurgency supplies are one thing. ................... but the kind of heavy ass equipment needed to counter CHRISBA777ER alliance - will be of a far greater quantum and far far more threatening to Russia's own vital interests.

right now transit is allowed beacuse the eqipment is directed at assymetric wrfare. Russia will sing a very different tune if the nature of that equipment changes to heavy conventional weapons.

remember capability is a tangible - intent is not. Capability is permanent - intent can change in seconds. The same eqipment stationed in the central Asian Stans used to defeat the pak-Iran alliance - can swiftly be turned against Russia and in fact may embolden Russia's central Asian puppets to rebel against Moscow. ................... look at Poland and Czech republic - they haven't yet got missile shields and they already think they're Russia's international equals.

also note how shy the Baltic republics were till they joined NATO and mice turned into lions.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: golfradio
Posted 2010-12-21 10:35:40 and read 17352 times.

No pilot is a born ace. It all comes down to equipment and training.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):
Plus you have one more rule that has held for the last 1100 years - EVERY - REPEAT EVERY invasion of India succeeds

India as it is, never existed until 1947. The last 1100 years you talk about was invasion of independent empires in a time when the empires were fighting amongst themselves. The Rajputs were too few in number to defend against the invading Muslims. The Maratha fought the Mughals tooth and nail, and so it went with every other empire.

The fact that the East India Company was able to colonize India practically without a fight is a testament to how divisive Indians were.

Today, India as a united country is a different. Try telling the Pakistanis that "EVERY - REPEAT EVERY invasion of India succeeds"

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: chuchoteur
Posted 2010-12-21 10:44:48 and read 17334 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 9):
No sorry this doesn't hold

... I stand corrected )

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 10):
True - i agree with that - but i dont think they will tolerate a "snake in the belly for too long".

I think that to some extent the ops in Afghanistan is serving as a fixation point for a number of countries interested in that region... whilst everybody is playing dirty tricks down there, they're not focusing as much as they could be elsewhere.

If anything, the collapse of that fixation point would cause Russia a greater headache.

Some of the asian Stan republics are being emboldened by the NATO presence in their midst... ironically, they feel they can match Moscow in playing around with NATO, hiking up prices for equipment transit, airbase usage and anything else they can put a price tag on... plays right in the hands of Moscow mostly.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2010-12-21 12:14:36 and read 17256 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
I'm keen to ensure the narrative is as realistic as possible,

The narrative discussed so far have been focused on the first 100 days of warfare. A protracted war will come down to logistics and the industrial capabilities of the nation involved.

If you look at the industrial base of your antagonist, and evaluate how a sustained campaign would play out, you may get a different picture.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):
EVERY - REPEAT EVERY invasion of India succeeds.

But India still belongs to the Indians . . . an the English are eating Curry and Drinking tea . . .  

bikerthai

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Zkpilot
Posted 2010-12-21 17:53:25 and read 17059 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):


Reason i ask is that I'm writing a novel - a fictional account of a war in about five or six years time between an islamic coalition of Pakistan, Iran and Syria against the other countries in the region, and of course the American and NATO forces in Afghanistan and surrounding areas.

A charismatic religious leader rises up from the ashes of a succeeded coup in Iran and unites the willing to form a brotherhood of Islam, determined to retake the MEG region as "their" homeland - and to rid it of the poisons of the west. Starting with a mass cruise missile attack on the Saudi's and a simultaneous pre-emptive mass cruise missile attack on two of the three the American carrier groups in the Gulf, causing the loss of both groups, and much of the Saudi air power in the region.

Naturally things go the way of the pear. UAE, Qatar and the fledgling Iraqi state adopt a totally defensive posture, as Iranian armour crosses the border into Iraq almost uncontested. The Gulf is totally blocked off as the Iranian and Pakistani supersonic ASM cruise missiles are dominant, because the US does not have enough Aegis ships to counter them in huge numbers and cannot protect the carrier or MEF groups so the third group is forced to withdraw.

The US/NATO forces in the region are cut off as air supremacy is lost, bases are overrun, and one by one, the smaller Gulf states are taken apart due to weight of numbers in the air and an inability to counter long-range cruise missiles from Iran.

Seeing their chance, the North Koreans launch a massive land offensive into South Korea.

As i said - its a hugely far fetched scenario, and a massively ambitious project - think Red Storm Rising for the 21st Century - but its been something ive been trying to write for a while, and am about half way through it - 650 pages on Word and the shooting hasnt started yet!

I'm keen to ensure the narrative is as realistic as possible, even if the premise is (very) far fetched.

Sounds like a very interesting read!
That said America doesn't have to have any Navy assets in the gulf or even fighter jets if it comes down to it.... cruise missiles can be fired from very far away. The reason why this isn't done at the moment is that they tend to have higher collateral damage and are more expensive (the whole million dollar missile for a 100 dollar tent argument).

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2010-12-21 18:38:37 and read 17036 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 10):
look at Poland and Czech republic - they haven't yet got missile shields and they already think they're Russia's international equals.

What a pile of nonsense. You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. The motivation behind getting the missile defense was not to be "Russia's international equals" (whatever that means...) but to seek additional security anchor given the historical experience with the Evil Empire as well as present one with its current reincarnation.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 10):
also note how shy the Baltic republics were till they joined NATO and mice turned into lions.

 

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-12-21 20:24:47 and read 16978 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 13):
the first 100 days of warfare.

these days 100 days counts as protracted war   .. as for industrial base what industrial base do hizballah and the Taliban have? - my point is Iran and to some extent Pakistan indirectly have been working on apocalyptic scenarios where their home states are wiped out and they still continue aggressive warfare without an industrial base/hinterland or air cover.

The Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Iraq are examples of how a huge-disproportionate force and resources can be pinned down by a handful of thugs........ and Lebanon 2006 is proof that this concept can be extended to a significantly escalated hot scenario.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 13):
But India still belongs to the Indians

actually it belongs to an Italian lady who treats it as her personal fiefdom and cash cow.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 11):
Today, India as a united country is a different.
Quoting golfradio (Reply 11):
The Maratha fought the Mughals tooth and nail

See by your definition a "united India" is as artificial a creation as the previous empires in the subcontinent. By that measure Pakistan, India and Bangladesh are all empires that exist in the Indian Subcontinent... so Pakistan attacking India is symptomatic of the internecine civil wars that led to the British east India company's victory.

what is this artificial 1947 cut off date? did the pole star change its orientation in 47? did earth change its axis in 1947? did the sun start rising in the west in 47? India is as much a temporary political entity as every empire before it on the subcontinent and the world has ever been.

Tell me how is Pakistan and India at each others throats any different from the Marathas, mughals, rajputs and hyderabadis all at each others throats. Pakistan is merely Muslim India - full stop. so Muslim India at Hindu India's throat constitutes a civil war - not invasion.

The only external invasion of INDIA and by that I mean the geographical stretch that is India (from the Hindu kush to the arakans E to W and karakorams to Indian ocean N to S) was in 62 by the Chinese - and what a spectacular success that was.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 15):
What a pile of nonsense

yes thank you - we've already established you're an incurable russophobe in prior threads.... and lose all objectivity when Russia comes into the picture.............. arguing with you on this score is pointless so i'm ignoring you... to avoid derailing this thread and engaging you on your single point fear driven agenda.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: golfradio
Posted 2010-12-21 21:56:16 and read 16946 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 16):
See by your definition a "united India" is as artificial a creation as the previous empires in the subcontinent. By that measure Pakistan, India and Bangladesh are all empires that exist in the Indian Subcontinent... so Pakistan attacking India is symptomatic of the internecine civil wars that led to the British east India company's victory.

  

Who is talking about the Indian Subcontinent? We are talking about the current Republic of India as it is known which became an independent country in 1947. You are very conveniently changing the context from India to the Indian subcontinent.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 16):
what is this artificial 1947 cut off date? did the pole star change its orientation in 47? did earth change its axis in 1947? did the sun start rising in the west in 47? India is as much a temporary political entity as every empire before it on the subcontinent and the world has ever been.

Tell me how is Pakistan and India at each others throats any different from the Marathas, mughals, rajputs and hyderabadis all at each others throats. Pakistan is merely Muslim India - full stop. so Muslim India at Hindu India's throat constitutes a civil war - not invasion.

No need for the attitude. After 15 August 1947, India ceased to include Pakistan and Bangladesh. How is a war between India and Pakistan a civil war?   

Pakistan is by no measure merely Muslim India. On 14 August 1947 Pakistan ceased to be India. Period. There is not a single country in the world including India that considers it as India.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 16):
The only external invasion of INDIA and by that I mean the geographical stretch that is India (from the Hindu kush to the arakans E to W and karakorams to Indian ocean N to S) was in 62 by the Chinese - and what a spectacular success that was.

Nonsense. You specifically said "that has held for the last 1100 years - EVERY - REPEAT EVERY invasion of India succeeds". Then you contradict that by saying "The only external invasion of INDIA and by that I mean the geographical stretch that is India (from the Hindu kush to the arakans E to W and karakorams to Indian ocean N to S) was in 62 by the Chinese". So which one is it?

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: faro
Posted 2010-12-22 03:45:41 and read 16817 times.

Re carrier pilots, I recall in a book on the F8 Crusader that US Navy pilots very greatly admired the performance of their French counterparts when these were on a deployment on the USS Enterprise in the 1970's. The adjective I distinctly remember is "superlative"; apparently the French Crusader pilots were capable of up to 90 carrier landings without a wave-off which was significantly beyond the capability of their US Navy brethren.

The author put it down to the small size of French carriers relative to USS ships as well as the elitist academic culture of the French which is quite apparent in their civil service and so-called 'national schools' (Ecole Polytechnique, Ecole Normale Supérieure, Ecole Nationale d'Administration, etc) which are like souped-up, Alpha universities. The selection process and training syllabus for French carrier pilots must be quite draconian given that they are perceived as the country's elite pilot corps.

Faro

[Edited 2010-12-22 03:48:53]

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: chuchoteur
Posted 2010-12-22 04:44:44 and read 16788 times.

Quoting faro (Reply 18):
the French Crusader pilots were capable of up to 90 carrier landings without a wave-off

They get to practice so few carrier landings they make every one count! 

joking aside, I think they're doing really good to keep their capabilities up in that domain, given the little carrier time they're getting... although the US Navy has kindly accepted them on board with the Rafale for some carrier training...

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-12-22 05:00:53 and read 16771 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
forces in Afghanistan and surrounding areas.

BTW have you researched the Pakistan Air Force? they're among the very few pilots to have scored air combat victories against the Israelis and even have the only Aces who shot down multiple Israeli planes when loaned to Jordan and Syria..... now i cant verify these claims because Pakistan is notorious for telling porkie pies and all the sources to back up these claims are Pakistani... but here are a few useful links that i thought may help you form an opinion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakista...967_Arab-Israeli_.27Six-Day.27_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sattar_Alvi

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_324.shtml

http://www.mabaig.co.uk/paf/PAINTINGS/mideast/MidEast.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...orld/pakistan/air-force-combat.htm

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/war/golanwar2.html

I must stress- I have NEVER seen any Israeli confirmation of these claims

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 12):
If anything, the collapse of that fixation point would cause Russia a greater headache.

yes but don't you think they'd go in themselves instead of get NATO to do their job for them and give them a very big foothold in the region? Basically Russia will be hailed the saviour of NATO central Asian deployments, consolidate its own interests and still be welcomed as a new member of the "western interests sphere".

Quoting faro (Reply 18):
I recall in a book on the F8 Crusader

which book was this?

Quoting faro (Reply 18):
as well as the elitist academic culture

are they still elitist in this day and age? sounds awfully feudal - when the German generalfeldsmarschals were all von something something, the French officers were all marquis de this and that and the British generals were all lords or dukes of all and sundry. i'm sorry pls enlighten - cuz in India and Aus the only French educational institution I ever heard about was the Sorbonne.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 17):
Who is talking about the Indian Subcontinent?
Quoting golfradio (Reply 17):
"that has held for the last 1100 years - EVERY - REPEAT EVERY invasion of India succeeds".

I was .... did you read my words? every invasion of INDIA...1100yrs.. succeeds... prior to 1947 there was no republic of India.... so your assertion that i somehow implied the geography that is the current republic of India was invaded successfully for the last 1100 years is not just absurd but also a deliberate distortion of facts. INDIA over the last 1100 years means the time honoured geographical definition of India used by the Greeks Romans Turks Arabs and Persian - India that is the subcontinent. ................. and every invasion of that ethno-geographic mass has always succeeded.

if you choose to narrow it to "republic of India" - work urself up into a tangle and end up hopelessly confused - fine - that's your problem - but don't attribute the confusion to me.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 17):
We are talking about the current Republic of India as it is known which became an independent country in 1947.

no YOU are - not I - so don't confuse your line of logic with mine. You brought in 1947, you brought up "republic of india" , you brought up partition, not I.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 17):
There is not a single country in the world including India that considers it as India.

actually all 52 member states of the Organisation of Islamic conference consider Pakistan Muslim India. This stems from jinnah's and the Muslim leagues demand "sole Muslim voice demand" ... and is the official justification that Pakistan uses to block Indian entry. That is the reason that in-spite of having the worlds 2nd largest Muslim population India is repeatedly denied entry into the OIC. while countries like Guyana and Thailand and south Africa are allowed to attend.

and Large segments of India do consider Pakistan and b'desh to be part of India - they certainly are linguistically, ethnically and historically http://www.akhandbharat.org/

So to repeat - India and Pakistan are simply new Indian empires - within the Indian subcontinent.... and follow the historical pattern of fighting each other and hating each other more than they do outsiders.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: faro
Posted 2010-12-22 05:13:45 and read 16762 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 20):
which book was this?
http://www.amazon.com/Vought-F-8-Cru...UTF8&s=books&qid=1293023446&sr=1-2

A very good, detailed read by the way.

Faro

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Eagleboy
Posted 2010-12-22 05:18:48 and read 16752 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
As i said - its a hugely far fetched scenario, and a massively ambitious project - think Red Storm Rising for the 21st Century - but its been something ive been trying to write for a while, and am about half way through it - 650 pages on Word and the shooting hasnt started yet!

I for one would buy this. I loved Red Strom Rising, the scale of it was what caught my interest.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2010-12-22 06:43:55 and read 16714 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 16):

The Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Iraq are examples of how a huge-disproportionate force and resources can be pinned down by a handful of thugs

It is easy for thugs to manage an insurgent war. It is much harder for thugs to maneuver and maintain an invasion force.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
the smaller Gulf states are taken apart due to weight of numbers

Kuwait may fall to the Iran/Iraq alliance. However, Qatar and Emirates will not fall.

1) In order to take the Q and E by land, any invasion force will have to go through Saudi. Now, imagine the back-lash if a Shia invasion force enters the home of Mecca and Medina. Unless the citizen of SA totally turn to the Shia side, you will have the Taliban and Al-Qaeda effect once again, only this time against the Iraq/Iran coalition.

2) In order to take Q and E by sea, you will need a competent navy. Blue water or otherwise. I don't see that in Iran. Oh I forgot about Bahrain (US naval presence) which can't be reached by land.

So, Iran may be able to cover the straight with missiles and may be able to hit Qatar from a distance, I would doubt that they will be able to drive the US from the Qatari airbase. And after the initial salvo's they do not have the industrial base to replace the missiles spent. How many missiles does it takes to disable an air field? Just one . . . but it have to be really, really lucky . . . and then the airfield is only inoperable for only for how long?

Thanks for an interesting discussion. Just in time for the Holidays . . .

bikerthai

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: golfradio
Posted 2010-12-22 07:19:21 and read 16685 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 20):
if you choose to narrow it to "republic of India" - work urself up into a tangle and end up hopelessly confused - fine - that's your problem - but don't attribute the confusion to me.

I am not the one who is confused, but you are changing your assertion. You asserted that the rule still holds true when you started about your 2 rules of warfare.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 16):
Plus you have one more rule that has held for the last 1100 years

Anyways now that you have changed your initial stance, any more discussion on this is moot.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: chuchoteur
Posted 2010-12-22 07:47:18 and read 16822 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 20):
yes but don't you think they'd go in themselves instead of get NATO to do their job for them

The underlying question is, does Russia have the armour and personnel in sufficient numbers to deploy and do the job? Given the difficulties they've had in Chechnya I'd be inclined to say no. And since then, their hardware has been diminishing, with the conscription system almost falling apart as well... Maybe they may not have the choice?

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 20):
are they still elitist in this day and age?

The french navy still has a number of aristocratic names serving in it... yes, it is elitist (primarily based on competencies/abilities!), it is so small as to afford to be selective, at least for officer rank. For pilot training the yearly intake that make it onto jets is only in the low double-digit numbers, their rejection rate at selection is probably around 80-90% (for EOPAN).

The more pressing problem is the recruitment of rank and petty officer personnel, since those now require a high level of education and personal aptitude. Relatively low pay as well as long periods at sea has meant it has been difficult to attract large numbers of candidates (I guess it's the same with most navies these days!).

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 20):
in India and Aus the only French educational institution I ever heard about was the Sorbonne.

Bearing in mind that Polytechnique, ENA etc are designed to form cadres for the french administration and government, it is a franco-french system hence you would be relatively unlikely to have heard of them so far abroad )
However, they are doing a lot more exchanges etc these days, and are starting to get some visibility overseas.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2010-12-22 08:01:38 and read 16785 times.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 17):
Pakistan is by no measure merely Muslim India. On 14 August 1947 Pakistan ceased to be India. Period. There is not a single country in the world including India that considers it as India.

I think he was redefining the terms to include India as an idea, to try to filter out the abstraction that borders sometimes are. Certainly, Pakistan is technically a country, but that does not mean it is not part of a wider geographic collective. Another example is North and South Korea. Just because North Korea is separate, does not mean it is not part of greater Korea. It is, in a sociological sense. No matter where they want to draw a border, the 1,000s of years old land of Korea is on both sides. Not the most flattering comparison maybe.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Shmertspionem
Posted 2010-12-22 08:15:35 and read 17064 times.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
It is easy for thugs to manage an insurgent war. It is much harder for thugs to maneuver and maintain an invasion force.

yep which is why I quoted Lebanon 2006 as having gone beyond mere insurgent warfare into something not exactly conventional - but not far off either - kinda like how the Egyptian forces that crossed the Suez in 73 used their ATGM's to hold out very successfully against Israeli armoured formations.

Now that Russia is selling Syria the supersonic 300kms range Yakhont/Oniks missile and hizballah is re-arming with much longer range rockets and better ATGMs i think Lebanon 2 may just be the basis for taking this operational philosophy on the offensive instead of homeland defensive insurgency.



Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
Now, imagine the back-lash if a Shia invasion force enters the home of Mecca and Medina.

Yes - but if Chris's pak-iran alliance holds - then the Pakistanis at any rate can ameliorate Sunni angst - and since Iran and Pakistan will be the only two nuclear Muslim the power they could pass off their alliance as pan-Islamic unity ???? wont happen - but i think fiction relies on the brief suspension of disbelief

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
Unless the citizen of SA totally turn to the Shia side,

Ha ha - not likely - they're the most retrograde obscurantists on earth ...... However the north-east of KSA is a shia majority - about 10% of the total population..... what if they stage a coup?????? problem is the state forces and ikhwan don't admit Shia... so there's not a single shia in the power structure there.

However they could rise up in rebellion, pin down the bulk of Saudi forces dealing with that rebellion while Iran and Pakistan sneak a naval attack in?

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
In order to take Q and E by sea, you will need a competent navy.

well i think Mumbai 2009 was an eye opener as to how 10 armed semi trained thugs could completely hold down 10,000 better trained troops and police. Me thinks a similar strike based on old fashioned stealth - like say a fishing dhow - aimed at decapitating the leadership and leadership targets in Doha, Abu Dhabi and Dubai may have a very good chance of success................................... especially if Pakistan joins Iran and contributes its expertise in this field.

Basically i think kuwait 1991 would have been different if Iraqi spec forces had captured most of the Al Sabah family. Similarly if irano-pakistani spec forces take the Al Thanis, Al Maktoums and Al Nahyans - the UAE forces may be brought to heel much sooner.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
I forgot about Bahrain

Well i think Bahrain is only about 10-15 years away from becoming a shia state. The emir there started democratising - knowing full well the majority of his subjects were shia . The genies out of the bottle, the king is trying to back peddle - lets see what happens.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 24):
now that you have changed your initial stance,

NO I HAVE NOT!!!!!! if you think so because you're intellectual capacity to grasp what I say is limited - and capacity for distortion and confusion infinite - fine... but I haven't changed my stance. the one thing you did get right is discussion is moot.

go play here http://www.sesamestreet.org/ I'm sure your word games and very obvious talent for obfuscation will be much appreciated and celebrated there.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 26):
I think he was redefining

dont worry - he understands exactly what i'm saying - he's just interested in pointless arguing.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 25):
Maybe they may not have the choice?

ah yes - ur right - i did not think of that. I think this again brings us back to to the time frame that chris sets his piece in. Anatoly serdukov is making many many changes in the Russian defence ministry with a 2020 fructification/gestation period end date. Lets see what comes of this.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 25):
it is so small as to afford to be selective, at least for officer rank.
Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 25):
The more pressing problem is the recruitment of rank and petty officer personnel,

That pretty much describes every free world military - the people with the intellectual acumen to be officers don't want to be anywhere near the military. In India for example there is a shortage of over 11,000 officers in the army alone - the AF problem from what i'm hearing is even more acute. almost one quarter to 1/2 the formations are severely undermanned at the officer level.

how is this problem managed in France? In India for example they significantly lowered the IQ rating for officer intakes And in Australia our government came up with this ludicrous idea last year to give the navy 3-6 moths off every year because of severe manning shortages.

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 22):
I loved Red Strom Rising

curious how many people like it - it was the complete lack of geo-political insight/research that put me off that novel - AFAIC the scenario was just a rehashed Japan 1939 oil embargo re-hash - translocated to Russia..... and one terrorist strike decapitating Russia's entire oil supply??? puhlease.....

But i suppose that's one side of the market - that gets put off by unrealistic scenarios or flimsy casus belli, and there's another side of the market that can ignore that part and concentrate on the ops details?

That said - i think every scenario we're gaming here seems to assume a very rapid collapse of Iran-Pak conventional forces and a robust use of unconventional tactics on their part. Would that be an interesting read for a market that wants to read about a BIG normal war with lots of big machine ops details.

Sorry Chris just thinking out loud - maybe its not my place to be market speculating for you.

But i second bikerthai - thanks this is fun.

[Edited 2010-12-22 08:29:15]

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: dc10bhx
Posted 2010-12-22 08:27:07 and read 17065 times.

Back onto topic, I would suggest in no particular order:-

USAF

RAF

IDF

and then any of the following:-

Russian Air Force

RoKAF

RAAF

Armee de l'air

This is not meant as a slight on other Air Forces but the ones shown above appear (to me anyway) to be the Air Forces which are more practiced in their procedures and exercises. Also do not discount the Indian Air Force who I believe had a very good showing at a Red Flag excercise recently.

Obviously I stand to be corrected but I would not like to bet against any of the above in a combat situation.

As an aside to this I would certainly buy a copy of this book as it seems to be the sort of book that would sit nicely on my bookshelves. You mentioned that this would be your second book. Can you PM me with the name of the first one you wrote?

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: bikerthai
Posted 2010-12-22 08:44:44 and read 17041 times.

Quoting dc10bhx (Reply 28):
Back onto topic, I would suggest in no particular order:-

Don't forget the Japanese Air Force. They have plenty of money to buy the best equipment. I am not familiar with their training regime but I would think it would be one of the best.

bikerthai

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: golfradio
Posted 2010-12-22 09:28:25 and read 17015 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 27):
NO I HAVE NOT!!!!!! if you think so because you're intellectual capacity to grasp what I say is limited - and capacity for distortion and confusion infinite - fine... but I haven't changed my stance. the one thing you did get right is discussion is moot.

go play here http://www.sesamestreet.org/ I'm sure your word games and very obvious talent for obfuscation will be much appreciated and celebrated there.

Aah, the personal insults. The classic comeback. For all the intellectual bravado you display on this forum you are ...



 banghead 

[Edited 2010-12-22 09:31:55]

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: hka098
Posted 2010-12-22 10:34:25 and read 16945 times.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 7):
To be fair, you could write a PhD thesis in geopolitics instead of a novel!

You'd probably make more money with the novel.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2010-12-22 13:25:04 and read 16865 times.

* Most Norwegian fighter pilots gets their innitial training in the USA. They often participate in such training facilities like Red Flag in the USA

* Norway is considered a populare country for foreign pilots to do special training in due to the fact that there are less traffic in the air and less people on the ground that can get irritated by low passing fighters etc. Many nations come to Norway to fly training missions.

* Norwegian pilots specialise in low level flying inbetween mountains. The airforce use the terrrain in Norway actively as a cover. It's not unusual to see Norwegian fighter planes at very low alltitutdes in very narrow places.

[Edited 2010-12-22 13:26:28]

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2010-12-22 13:37:17 and read 16849 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 32):
It's not unusual to see Norwegian fighter planes at very low alltitutdes in very narrow places.

We saw some fighters doing low exercises near a mountain while skiing in Norway back in '94   They were within just a mile or so of us, maybe 1000-2000 feet above ground (sorry for the non-metrics). I assume they were one-engine Saabs, but not sure anymore.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2010-12-22 14:03:18 and read 16823 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 33):
We saw some fighters doing low exercises near a mountain while skiing in Norway back in '94 They were within just a mile or so of us, maybe 1000-2000 feet above ground (sorry for the non-metrics). I assume they were one-engine Saabs, but not sure anymore.

We don't have Saabs. What you most likely saw was F16's. The F16 is the only operational fighter in the Norwegian airforce.

Here is a cool video

RNoAF - Low Level Flying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xIJHVX-naM&feature=related

( Hight of 80 meters at 800 km/h )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M470NL5iT4w&feature=related

Autofil F-16 del 1 ( Autofil, a norwegian version of Top Gear, takes a ride in an F-16 ) ( They fly as low as 60 meters in this clip and close to the mountain walls ) ( It's funny to listn to the seriously calm pilot explaining things to the reporter almost pissing in his pants in the back ) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clpyv8tMEDo&feature=related

Part 2 ( The pilot does 6.7 G's with the reporter onboard here ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuePyOT5ENc&feature=related

[Edited 2010-12-22 14:19:43]

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2010-12-22 14:20:13 and read 16843 times.

-------

Red Flag 2010:



Anyway, during the Red Flag exercise in 2010 the Norwegian team where one of the very few that had 4 so called ”Mission Commander” missions. It means that it was a Norwegian that planned, execute and analyze a whole flightperiod. It's a big task with over 100 aircraft from several nations participating. Most countries has lead 2 or 3 such " Mission Commander " missions. 10 Norwegian fighters were participating + Hercules aircraft and P3C Orion aircraft. The flight from Bodø in Norway to Las Vegas in the USA took over 11 hours flying against the wind all the way

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2010-12-22 18:28:29 and read 16717 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 16):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 15):
lose all objectivity when Russia comes into the picture...

Coming from someone who brags on this forum about hanging out with top brass KGB thugs...  
Priceless.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: chuchoteur
Posted 2010-12-22 23:18:17 and read 16659 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 27):
how is this problem managed in France?

In France, I'd say recruitment at officer level is still ok.
Essentially, given that it's hard to get a first job as a graduate in France, there are still plenty of intellectually brilliant and physically capable people attracted to a career in the armed forces. This is partly helped by the career structure (15 years, now just moved to 17 years service, which lead you to a full and immediate pension entitlement).

The short term commission officers (5 to 8 years) are not very well served, so those tend to be primarily graduates who decide to join the armed forces for a little bit of professional experience pending something more exciting coming up, generally in the private sector. Their motivation is not that great in some cases...

Rank and petty officer intakes are dismal really. Here we're getting a lot of candidates that just can't make the grade, particularly since the new armed forces format has drastically cut personnel as well as asked for more flexibility. And that requires some intellect and aptitudes... Plus with new equipment complexity, all ranks are required to be close to fluent in english, as well as computer-aware etc, so difficult!

Coupled with the fact that training times are being compressed as much as possible, with more rotations on overseas deployments, the situation is complex to say the least, although (so far) morale has kept up ok.

Quoting hka098 (Reply 31):
Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 7):
To be fair, you could write a PhD thesis in geopolitics instead of a novel!

You'd probably make more money with the novel.

True! You could also write the PhD in parrallel  

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: faro
Posted 2010-12-23 06:55:27 and read 16564 times.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 37):
Essentially, given that it's hard to get a first job as a graduate in France, there are still plenty of intellectually brilliant and physically capable people attracted to a career in the armed forces.

Indeed but the more capable of those job seekers, ie the Grandes Ecoles and Polytechnique graduates, if they initially engage in a military career, are usually itching to switch over to industry where their talents are very sought after and very very handsomely remunerated.

Faro

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Ozair
Posted 2010-12-23 10:50:03 and read 16478 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
I was wondering which air forces generally have the best trained pilots and crew?

An interesting question. Before I add my opinion I probably need to make the distinction between best trained and best skilled as I think there is a difference between the two. Being trained is prepared for a large number of scenarios, proficient with your equipment, thinking tactically and flexible to adapt to changing battle conditions. Skilled would be someone having good hands and feet and generally a great flyer (which could come from any nation). A skilled pilot may not have access to the best information or use the best tactics.

So with the above in mind I think the USA, UK & RAAF (maybe a little bias   ) would probably be the best trained. They likely have access to the most comprehensive threat information, have a defined aggressor training program (that exchange officers participate in), have internal courses specifically promoting the above trained capabilities (Weapons Officer for the USA, FCI for RAAF, the RAF also has one that off the top of my head I can't name), probably fly the most effective hours a year, have access to large air ranges that allow training to be conducted covering the full spectrum of conflict and have a large cadre of experienced pilots with thousands of hours.

I would put the Israelis & Canadians (with their close associations to the above) a very close second and then a whole host of Asian and European nations.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
I guess it comes down to training by nations as well - I can imagine the Israelis are very good because they are trained by the Americans - same for the Singaporeans I guess?

Culture probably plays a big role. Are some cultures as open to the type of criticism required for real tactical development as for example the US or UK?

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 35):

Anyway, during the Red Flag exercise in 2010 the Norwegian team where one of the very few that had 4 so called ”Mission Commander” missions. It means that it was a Norwegian that planned, execute and analyze a whole flightperiod. It's a big task with over 100 aircraft from several nations participating. Most countries has lead 2 or 3 such " Mission Commander " missions. 10 Norwegian fighters were participating + Hercules aircraft and P3C Orion aircraft. The flight from Bodø in Norway to Las Vegas in the USA took over 11 hours flying against the wind all the way

I wouldn't read too much into that. It depends on who is participating on the specific flag and how many aircrew each nation has to provide to the planning process. There are also US only Flags, USA, UK, RAAF, and RCAF only flags, NATO only flags and then the more open ones with many nations from all over the world which probably makes a difference as well.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 37):
Coupled with the fact that training times are being compressed as much as possible, with more rotations on overseas deployments, the situation is complex to say the least, although (so far) morale has kept up ok.

That must play a big part for a lot of air forces around the world that are active on operations. I imagine the USAF F-15E drivers spend so much time dropping ordinance in AFG they aren't as proficient at air to air as they could be.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5):
It will be my second novel.

Good luck with it. I would love to write something once I find the time and have a few ideas rolling around in my head. Was your first on a similar theme?

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: fridgmus
Posted 2010-12-23 14:39:44 and read 16398 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
I guess it comes down to training by nations as well - I can imagine the Israelis are very good because they are trained by the Americans

Chris, the Israeli's train their own pilots. Although they do come to the US for some specialized training on new equipment which they then take back to Israel and modify both the equipment and training to fit their specific needs. This was told to me by a former USAF pilot instructing Iraqi pilots at Kirkuk AB.

Quoting faro (Reply 18):
The adjective I distinctly remember is "superlative"; apparently the French Crusader pilots were capable of up to 90 carrier landings without a wave-off which was significantly beyond the capability of their US Navy brethren.

I'm no fan of the French, but face it, they do have damn good pilots. And think the Rafale is just waaaaay too sexy!   

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: CharlieNoble
Posted 2010-12-23 14:52:24 and read 16387 times.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 27):
That pretty much describes every free world military - the people with the intellectual acumen to be officers don't want to be anywhere near the military.

I wouldn't call this an accurate characterization of the US. Admission to the Military/Naval/Air Force/Coast Guard Academies is extremely competitive, and the Cadets/Midshipmen selected are on par with those students who attend our top universities.

There is probably a delta in intellectual capacity at the very top end in favor of the civilian institutions, but I think that reflects the fact that the Service academies have stringent athletic / medical requirements that might keep out some super-talented academics.

Much like how the weight requirements don't bode well for supersized linemen on the football teams.

Either way, based on my experience intellectual acumen is a close second to horse sense and a clear sense of purpose when it comes to successful military leadership.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: travelavnut
Posted 2010-12-24 05:23:22 and read 16194 times.

I dont know of it is a sign of the overal level of training of the Dutch Airforce, but the Dutch F-16 demo team is apparantly highly respected in the airshow scene for their high + and - G manouvers and energy management.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: mffoda
Posted 2010-12-24 09:16:05 and read 16121 times.

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 40):
I'm no fan of the French, but face it, they do have damn good pilots. And think the Rafale is just waaaaay too sexy!   

I'm not so sure about that last part.... Because they say SEX sells!!!     

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: faro
Posted 2010-12-25 08:55:11 and read 15996 times.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 43):
Quoting fridgmus (Reply 40):
I'm no fan of the French, but face it, they do have damn good pilots. And think the Rafale is just waaaaay too sexy!   

I'm not so sure about that last part.... Because they say SEX sells!!!

Also remember an article in Air International about 2-3 years ago, written by an RAF combat pilot who was given the chance to fly a Mirage 2000 in the south of France. His impressions re his French colleagues' flying capabilities are vivid and rather complimentary.

Faro

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: trex8
Posted 2010-12-25 11:13:29 and read 15929 times.

Many things go into making a good pilot, it also depends a lot on what they are training for. eg the Gamblers,21st AF Argentina">FS, USAF AIr Education Training Command at Luke AFB hosts the Taiwanese block 20 F16 training unit. Since 1996 the Taiwanese have kicked the butts in air- air combat of the active USAF pilots training at Luke regularly as well as Navy and MC F18 pilots flying from west coast bases. For the first decade they were there they won the Luke award - awarded to the best unit at Luke which is the main active duty F16 training station for the USAF. - every consecutive year!

Part of that was due to their better avionics.(They have the NATO MLU avionics which only started coming into frontline USAF service with the CCIP upgrade 5-6 years ago). This greatly increased their situational awareness compared to pre CCIP standard USAF F16s. They were doing this while still using Aim7 Sparrows and Aim9Ms while US units were AIM120 amraam and some AIM9X /JHMCS equipped. Most of the Taiwanese pilots are also quite experienced before being sent to Luke while the US pilots are early in in their careers which is another factor but we are talking kill ratios of several to one against the US pilots. The block 20s also have the advantage that when equipped for an air-air mission weapon load out a F16A block 20 is more manoeuverable at altitude than a block 40/50 F16 C- lower wing loading and at altitude the differential in the higher sea level thrust of the block 40/50 is much less.

Now since the F16 is a mud mover in US service and while the Taiwanese planes do have Sharpshooter/Pathfinder pods they do not have GPS weapon capability so in air ground exercises they don't do nearly as well. Then they also have capabilities the US planes don't eg harpoons for maritime strike.

The point is, a well trained force of pilots in a half decent platform can kick the butts of any better equipped force.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: trex8
Posted 2010-12-25 11:13:49 and read 15920 times.

Many things go into making a good pilot, it also depends a lot on what they are training for. eg the Gamblers,21st Fighter squadron, 56th TFW, AIr Education Training Command at Luke AFB hosts the Taiwanese block 20 F16 training unit. Since 1996 the Taiwanese have kicked the butts in air- air combat of the active USAF pilots training at Luke regularly as well as Navy and MC F18 pilots flying from west coast bases. For the first decade they were there they won the Luke award - awarded to the best unit at Luke which is the main active duty F16 training station for the USAF. - every consecutive year!

Part of that was due to their better avionics.(They have the NATO MLU avionics which only started coming into frontline USAF service with the CCIP upgrade 5-6 years ago) greatly increased their situational awareness compared to pre CCIP standard USAF F16s. They were doing this while still using Aim7 Sparrows and Aim9Ms while US units were AIM120 amraam and some AIM9X /JHMCS equipped. Most of the Taiwanese pilots are also quite experienced before being sent to Luke while the US pilots are early in in their careers which is another factor but we are talking kill ratios of several to one against the US pilots. The block 20s also have the advantage that when equipped for an air-air mission weapon load out a F16A block 20 is more maneuverable at altitude than a block 40/50 F16 C- lower wing loading and at altitude the differential in the higher sea level thrust of the block 40/50 is much less.

Now since the F16 is a mud mover in US service and while the Taiwanese planes do have Sharpshooter/Pathfinder pods they do not have GPS weapon capability so in air ground exercises they don't do nearly as well. Then they also have capabilities the US planes don't eg harpoons for maritime strike.

The point is, a well trained force of pilots in a half decent platform can kick the butts of a better equipped force with good tactics[Edited 2010-12-25 11:17:02]

[Edited 2010-12-25 11:20:08]

[Edited 2010-12-25 11:20:22]

[Edited 2010-12-25 11:20:40]

[Edited 2010-12-25 11:21:06]

[Edited 2010-12-25 11:21:18]

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: trex8
Posted 2010-12-25 11:22:12 and read 15902 times.

sorry about the double posts the edit function is going nuts

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2010-12-25 22:41:00 and read 15848 times.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):

What about the Russians? Indians? French? Italian? German? Swedes? Any underdogs that have surprised a lot of people at Red Flag etc?

I heard the Indian AF did well against the USAF.
Every AF has its class...It depends on scenarios present & terrain that gives them the needed advantage along with the machine used.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: kaitak
Posted 2010-12-29 00:26:19 and read 15358 times.

I think it's also fair to say that it's a question of equipment as well; I wouldn't disagree with those who say that the IDF, USAF, RAF, RAAF etc have superb pilots; they have the equipment too. Many other air forces have excellent training, but may not have the aircraft, or indeed the training resources (mission simulators, for example), but their pilots are still very good. Our own Air Corps, here in Ireland, has very able pilots, but our tactical fighter squadron consists of PC-9s. We'd love to get our hands on a few Gripens, but with our general financial situation, they'll probably be Herpa models ...

Many air forces in the Middle East, such as Libya, Syria and Iran (and let's face it, India as well, although they have some very modern equipment) have antiquated equipment, such as MiG21s and 23s.

Good luck with your book, CHRISBA777ER; it sounds very interesting. I would say, however, that the Chinese would be far keener on seeing the RoK invade the DPRK (and unity under Seoul) than the other way around. And don't forget that Canada will want to be on any side that gets to humiliate the UAE!  

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2011-10-10 02:06:33 and read 12873 times.

Always wondered If China take on the US.....Would Quality or Quantity win be it Aircraft or men....  

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: chuchoteur
Posted 2011-10-10 07:22:52 and read 12779 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 50):
Always wondered If China take on the US.....Would Quality or Quantity win be it Aircraft or men....

There was an article in USA Today this morning saying that some US officials were shocked at the presentation of UCAVs at some airshow in China.

Apparently the Chinese showed something like 28 different projects, including one that had a CGI video showing a bombing run on a Nimitz class Carrier. Oooops....

Didn't get the article, was flying back from the US and didn't sleep so much on board, ended up leaving all the papers in the plane.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2011-10-10 10:55:25 and read 12639 times.

Interesting concept for a novel. I'll let the others comment on your original question since they have more knowledge than I, but you should do a self gloss post to let us know when it's available in Non-Av.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
Seeing their chance, the North Koreans launch a massive land offensive into South Korea.

In your scenario, most of the fighting is being done away from where US Pacific Fleet forces are stationed. In the short term they would be able to assist if N. Korea attacks S. Korea. It's not like they haven't been planning for this type of war for decades. However,

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 7):
I would not underestimate China.

The PLA could take this as an opportunity to attack Taiwan. Given your timeline by then Japan, India and China may have aircraft carriers in service. That could make for an interesting storyline as powers in the Pacific and Indian Oceans expand hostilities.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Flighty
Posted 2011-10-10 17:20:54 and read 12485 times.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 51):
There was an article in USA Today this morning saying that some US officials were shocked at the presentation of UCAVs at some airshow in China.

Apparently the Chinese showed something like 28 different projects, including one that had a CGI video showing a bombing run on a Nimitz class Carrier. Oooops....

Why should they be shocked... China has active cells in every major US/EU defense contractor and in the US military itself. But, the ways I know this are not the conventional reasoning the US military uses.

Conventionally (ie manned dogfights), we are 30 years ahead of China. But they are advancing at about 3 years per year. They will equal our defense tech within 10 or so years. Positionally, we are outside the Yellow Sea not because we wouldn't like to have free navigation, but simply because China is pushing us away. The Nimitz will be just about useless against a China right now.

In coming years, China will sell the anti-Nimitz technology to its peers. I doubt the Nimitz has much of a future... it's a drone's world... -amateur reader and armchair analyst

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: checksixx
Posted 2011-10-10 20:54:52 and read 12447 times.

Thing is that the US trains its pilots the best. When other air forces come to train in the US, they may end up with better performance, but there is a reason for that. Typically, the US aircraft will be loaded for the actual mission they would be flying. Other countries have a bad habit of training without training rounds loaded on the jets. This would give them a competitive advantage, but little in the way of a 'wartime reality' check. If you don't train the way you fight, then whats the point.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2011-10-11 01:48:58 and read 12397 times.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 54):
If you don't train the way you fight, then whats the point.

On the contrary.....No AF Exposes their secrets.What occurs in an Exercise is a situation handed over & the reaction can vary.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: canoecarrier
Posted 2011-10-11 09:25:18 and read 12274 times.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 53):

Conventionally (ie manned dogfights), we are 30 years ahead of China. But they are advancing at about 3 years per year. They will equal our defense tech within 10 or so years.

They don't need to equal our defense tech. By 2020 China could have a 3:1 edge in fighters in any attack on Taiwan if we can still fly from Kadena, 10:1 if forced to operate from Andersen. By shear weight of numbers if China sees an opportunity in the coming years to attack because, as the OP postulates, we are overstretched by new strategic developments in Iran/Iraq/Pakistan/S. Korea, etc., they could take Taiwan.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 53):
The Nimitz will be just about useless against a China right now.

In the hypothetical scenario of a war 5-6 years in the future you can either say their new anti-ship missile works or doesn't. If it does, the Nimitz class may be obsolete, if not I think they soldier on.

I'll just say that it's an interesting side story if he wants to use it. One of the reasons I like John Birmingham's Axis of Evil series, you can make assumptions on the future.

In the OP's story what is Russia doing? Consolidating ex-republics? Is Putin still in charge and is he aligning himself with China, Korea?

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: checksixx
Posted 2011-10-14 22:41:34 and read 11877 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 55):
Quoting checksixx (Reply 54):
If you don't train the way you fight, then whats the point.

On the contrary.....No AF Exposes their secrets.What occurs in an Exercise is a situation handed over & the reaction can vary.

LoL...keep believing that if you want, but if your pilots don't train properly, then all that money your country is spending buying all sorts of aircraft becomes a waste.

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: TheCol
Posted 2011-10-15 13:50:26 and read 11805 times.

IMHO:

1. US Marines and Navy Pilots
2. RAF, RCAF, RAAF pilots (in no particular order)
3. Luftwaffe pilots
4. Armée de l'Air and Marine Nationale pilots
5. RoKAF and IDF pilots (in no particular order)
6. All other NATO pilots (in no particular order)
7. RSAF pilots
8. Pilots of the Armed Forces of Russia
9. IAF pilots
10. PLAAF pilots

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2011-10-20 09:24:32 and read 11373 times.

********RNOAF********

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: HaveBlue
Posted 2011-10-20 12:59:26 and read 11329 times.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 59):
********RNOAF********

Royal New Orleans Air Force?

  j/k

Topic: RE: Who Has The Best Trained Pilots?
Username: mffoda
Posted 2011-10-25 14:08:20 and read 10909 times.

I have found the answer to the OP's question!   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-..._Eagle_female_pilots,_3rd_Wing.jpg


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