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Topic: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: L-188
Posted 2012-02-26 18:16:55 and read 6702 times.

Hey guys

I don't know if anybody remembers but a couple of years go I made up an air force. (1/72 in size if anybody was wondering)

Anyway I want to revisit it.

At the time of my last writing, I had both Mig -29's and A4M's in service. I think it is time to work on securing a replacement or those two types.

Anyway I am looking for a type that can hold its own against the CF-18. The Air Force already is flying the Su-27MKI in the air intercept role so I am going to biased this air raft toward the ground pounding and marine interdiction mission. I am thinking that money is an object. And I think that it will be a new build aircraft-not surplus. and I am going to say that this air force has a policy of not purchasing aircraft that are still in development.

So my initial thoughts are that the F-15, Eurofighter and the F18E are too big and costly, F-35 and T-50 are still in development, do they are out.

The short list I come up with is as follows:

The F-16 Block 60
The Saab Griffin
The Dassault Rafele
The chinese FC-1 (can't remember the name of the builder)

Anybody out there have any other types that would it the bill? Or a justification on why or why not these types should be on the list

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: mandala499
Posted 2012-02-27 02:24:49 and read 6564 times.

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
The Air Force already is flying the Su-27MKI in the air intercept role so I am going to biased this air raft toward the ground pounding and marine interdiction mission. I am thinking that money is an object.

Try M-346 or Yak-130. Nice little nimble planes, for ground attack and point defence fighter. Covers the MiG-29 and A-4M in one go, although weapons carriage capability on the pulons are about 3 tons, while the MiG29 is 3.5 tons, and the A-4M is about 4.5 tons. And they're relatively cheap.. 20 million Euros for the M-346 and 15 million USD for the Yak-130. And I think the MiG-29 is in that price range or slightly above.

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
The F-16 Block 60
The Saab Griffin
The Dassault Rafele
The chinese FC-1 (can't remember the name of the builder)

If you already got the Su-27 MKI, why look at these other ones?
F-15s and F18s would cost over 60 million USD a piece these days...
F-16 Block 60... it's an overbuilt and overpriced F-16.    It'll cost about the same.
Saab Gripen... nice, but costs more than 2x the M-346 or Yak130, for about 1.5x the capability. it's already 40-60 million USD a piece (Wiki).
The Rafale is a better deal than the Gripen on paper. You get a lot more bang for your buck than your Gripen. This one, the price tag is about the same in numbers, but the currency prefix is the Euro.   
But then, each of the above costs more than your Su-27s (about 30 million USD for a basic export version with no weapons, to about 45 million for the advanced version, or go full blow to Su-35 standard for about 60 million)... so why not just get more Su-27s?    (Similar load to the Rafale, for like, 1/3 the price).
FC-1? Well, for that money, better off with my 2 choices.

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
Anyway I am looking for a type that can hold its own against the CF-18.

Err, well, the M-346 and Yak-130 are probably the highest performing and most agile combat capable trainers today... and yes, it can (should) hold on its own against the CF-18 in close-in combat and performance on the lateral plane (on the vertical plane, well, get the friggin' Sukhois instead!)

Just my little bit of fun writing!   

Mandala499

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2012-02-27 09:51:21 and read 6400 times.

I'd throw in another LIFT aircraft into the mix...the KAI F/A-50. Probably wouldn't reach its full potential unless the advance trainer is selected for the US T-X requirement. Could arguably hold its own against the Gripen especially if the engine gets upgraded to GE's F414.....

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.....and benefit from low operation costs, modern avionics, and offer of scaled down AESA radar from Raytheon or Northrop Grumman. Already on order by the RoKAF. Said to handle very much like the Falcon too, but will surely be much less expensive than the newly-announced F-16V, which is likely to be the last iteration of the type, and risks not seeing production if there'd be no early takers.

However, if the budget could be stretched to it, the Rafale would really be in its element here.....with production quite assured (barring failure of negotiations) with the MMRCA win.

Too bad used fighters are off-limits.....the UAE's Mirage 2000-9s are eager to find a new home, and Eurofighters are reportedly being offered to former CIS nations at a nice discount.            

Although if money was a problem and the candidate must take on the Rhino, then Chengdu's J-10 could be a viable alternative.....

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Not saying it would prevail.....just that it would give a decent account of itself.

[Edited 2012-02-27 10:23:54]

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: mandala499
Posted 2012-02-27 12:45:44 and read 6327 times.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 2):
Already on order by the RoKAF.

Our air force ordered the damn thing too! I feel dumb for leaving the T/A-50 out...

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 2):
UAE's Mirage 2000-9s

How much (price) are they nowadays?

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2012-02-27 16:11:57 and read 6249 times.

Try used block 25 F-16C/Ds and used A-10A/B/Cs. They are about the cheapest airplanes you can buy today and they are available. Also there are several RAF/RN Harriers avalable for cheap..

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: L-188
Posted 2012-03-09 15:25:51 and read 5484 times.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Try used block 25 F-16C/Ds and used A-10A/B/Cs

Actually the way I have the history laid out, they did aquire 7 A-10's out of the 24 they wanted to replace the A4's. The US cut off delivery of the rest when they discovered they needed them (again). Actually I wonder if a deal to finance the F-16's would be a good idea by reselling the A-10s that where delivered back to the US.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 2):
then Chengdu's J-10 could be a viable alternative.....

As far as I know there have been no export sales of that aircraft so I am going to steer clear of it, besides, the FC-1 was designed specificly as an export fighter.

You guys did get me thinking though.

There are four types that I need to replace.

F4E'S
MIG-29's
A4M
A-37

Maybe I should be spliting this up with the SU's replacing the Phantoms and Migs, and then a combined A4/A-37 replacement. Those trainer types may fit in well in that situation.

And that would leave a two type fleet.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Also there are several RAF/RN Harriers avalable for cheap..

I thought all those where going to the USMC for spares.

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: Devilfish
Posted 2012-03-09 19:24:17 and read 5429 times.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 3):
Our air force ordered the damn thing too! I feel dumb for leaving the T/A-50 out...

What's with that order...seemed like TNI-AU was reluctant to confirm it at first, while KAI was very eager to announce it?

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 3):
How much (price) are they nowadays?

No price is being floated, though it may not be a bargain given their penchant for bundling things.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
As far as I know there have been no export sales of that aircraft so I am going to steer clear of it

It was reportedly due to Russian objections to re-export of the AL-31 engines. Though it's much easier to see they were just not keen on supplying others to better compete with them. Nevertheless, I think the Chinese managed to sneak in a J-10 (with indigenous engines) order for Pakistan.

And to think I was about to suggest Shenyang's J-11 knockoff..... 
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Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
besides, the FC-1 was designed specificly as an export fighter.

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It's about par with current gen Gripen and will hold its own vs the armed trainers, but may struggle against the Hornet.

.
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/2675/fc1beh0.jpg

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: L-188
Posted 2012-03-09 22:00:58 and read 5404 times.

The other though I had is that they do need a type that will continue to still use the western spec bombs and missiles that the A4 uses

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: Rage
Posted 2012-03-10 16:43:21 and read 5261 times.

What about the Su-34? They are in production, will give you some support commonality with the Su-27MKI, and would be excellent for both the mud moving and Anti-Shipping. A single squadron or two of these supported with several squadrons of M-346s would give you a substantial depth of coverage for years to come.

Topic: RE: A4M And Mig-29 Replacement Aircraft.
Username: Ozair
Posted 2012-03-10 20:04:23 and read 5230 times.

Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
Anyway I am looking for a type that can hold its own against the CF-18. The Air Force already is flying the Su-27MKI in the air intercept role so I am going to biased this air raft toward the ground pounding and marine interdiction mission. I am thinking that money is an object. And I think that it will be a new build aircraft-not surplus. and I am going to say that this air force has a policy of not purchasing aircraft that are still in development.
Quoting L-188 (Thread starter):
The short list I come up with is as follows:

The F-16 Block 60
The Saab Griffin
The Dassault Rafele
The chinese FC-1 (can't remember the name of the builder)

If as you say money is an issue and you have a requirement for a new build aircraft then I cannot see how you could go past the Saab Gripen. It will use all the western ordinance and its cheap, easily half the price of a Rafale or an F-16E. You also get a lot more capability than a T/A-50 or M-346.


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