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Topic: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2007-12-21 04:57:34 and read 5433 times.

Eurofighter May Quit Contests in Denmark, Norway

Quote:
Eurofighter is set to walk away from fighter competitions in Denmark and Norway following the delivery of letters this week from the German government announcing that the four-nation consortium was suspending activities to secure the Nordic contracts.
A Norwegian Ministry of Defence spokesman said a letter from the Eurofighter nations had been received Dec. 20. He said the MoD was not in a position to comment.
A spokesman for the Danish MoD said it would not be able to comment until Dec. 21.
One industry source said the feeling in the Eurofighter nations was that the two competitions had been tilted in favor of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 Lightning II.
A second source familiar with the Nordic programs said that Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain — the four nations involved in the program to develop and build the Typhoon multirole combat aircraft — had suspended their involvement but stopped short of a complete withdrawal.
“Eurofighter has suspended its participation in the fighter replacement programs in Denmark and Norway,” the second source said. “One reason I heard was the move appeared to be related to recent adjustments to the timing and structure of the assessment process.”

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: GDB
Posted 2007-12-21 06:28:58 and read 5405 times.

I wasn't aware it was in the running, save for very serious problems with F-35 emerging.
SAAB have pitched hard for a developed Gripen to these Scandinavian nations too, Norway in particular.

It could be that Capitol Hill, is the deciding factor here, if F-35 is delayed by budgets, or by objections about exports.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2007-12-26 09:59:43 and read 5002 times.

It,s a well known fact that particularly Norway but also Denmark is leaning more to the US then Europe in this case......

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: EBJ1248650
Posted 2007-12-26 13:10:28 and read 4945 times.



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
I heard was the move appeared to be related to recent adjustments to the timing and structure of the assessment process.”

Not sure what this means. Assessment process would take too long? Assessment process too strict? The process is structured to evaluate the F-35 and not structured to fairly evaluate the Typhoon?

I'm hard pressed to understand why the Eurofighter consortium would walk away from even the remotest chance they could get an order out of this competition. Unspecified customers of better potential in the wings, perhaps?

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: RedFlyer
Posted 2007-12-26 20:02:22 and read 4894 times.



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 3):
I'm hard pressed to understand why the Eurofighter consortium would walk away from even the remotest chance they could get an order out of this competition.

I'm hard-pressed to understand why they wouldn't put political pressure on their own EU member state (Denmark) to consider the home-grown product. It doesn't bode well for pan-European unity when a member state rebuffs a very capable product to look across an ocean for a comparable solution.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2007-12-27 02:43:39 and read 4836 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):
It doesn't bode well for pan-European unity when a member state rebuffs a very capable product to look across an ocean for a comparable solution.

Perhaps they (i.e., Norway and Denmark) don't feel it's (i.e., the Eurofighter) comparable?

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2007-12-27 05:24:58 and read 4796 times.



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):
I'm hard-pressed to understand why they wouldn't put political pressure on their own EU member state (Denmark) to consider the home-grown product. It doesn't bode well for pan-European unity when a member state rebuffs a very capable product to look across an ocean for a comparable solution.

The F-35 is more Danish and Norwegian than the Eurofighter. It is therefor in effect the "homegrown" product. When buying Typhoon they might get some off-set, but there would virtually be no home technology in the aeroplane.

I think this might be a smart move from Eurofighter. They don;t want to be the "excuse" options, to be able to get better deals with the US, without actually having a fair chance of winning a deal. Norway and Denmark have to show real interest in Typhoon for them to re-bid.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2007-12-27 12:13:49 and read 4734 times.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 6):
think this might be a smart move from Eurofighter. They don;t want to be the "excuse" options, to be able to get better deals with the US, without actually having a fair chance of winning a deal.

Would this also comply to the Gripen?Should Gripen also walk away? In my opinion the deal is already done!

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2007-12-27 14:08:06 and read 4706 times.



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 7):
Would this also comply to the Gripen?Should Gripen also walk away? In my opinion the deal is already done!

that of course depends. Perhaps Gripen is taken much more seriously than Typhoon.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: EBJ1248650
Posted 2007-12-27 18:49:38 and read 4680 times.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 8):
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 7):
Would this also comply to the Gripen?Should Gripen also walk away? In my opinion the deal is already done!

that of course depends. Perhaps Gripen is taken much more seriously than Typhoon.

Because it's cheaper? Because it's capabilities better meet Norway's needs? Does Norway contribute anything to Gripen production?

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2007-12-28 03:53:59 and read 4643 times.



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9):
Because it's cheaper? Because it's capabilities better meet Norway's needs? Does Norway contribute anything to Gripen production?

At the moment there is only some developement involvement for "super-Gripen" I believe. The Nordic countries have relatively close ties, and the politicians need an alternative to JSF to be able to negotiate. Appearently the Gripen is a more serious contender than Typhoon, for several reasons:

-It's Scandinavian aeroplane with probably good participation options
-It's an aircraft designed for defence in the first place ,allthough it would make a perfect war machine if you want too, especially because it's relativly simple to operate.
-JSF is conceived more as a strike aircraft (which is a misconception if you ask me)
-It's is for sure cheaper

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: EBJ1248650
Posted 2007-12-28 07:39:51 and read 4611 times.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 10):
-JSF is conceived more as a strike aircraft (which is a misconception if you ask me)

I've often wondered how the F-35 (JSF) could adequately replace the F-16 when it's clear the JSF is primarily a strike fighter whereas the F-16 is a true swing-role fighter.

I didn't realize the Gripen is as simple to operate as it is. Here again, I believe it was designed to be a swing role fighter rather than a dedicated interceptor or ground attack aircraft. Correct me on that if I'm wrong.  Smile

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: GDB
Posted 2007-12-28 09:02:16 and read 4600 times.

Gripen was designed for austure base deployment, to be turned around by short service conscripts, in line with the Swedish defence doctrine of the time, this had also influenced the design of the aircraft it replaced, the Viggen.
A lot has been made of Gripen's 'lack of range/warload', but this is looking at the intial Swedish AF versions, but Gripen has not stood still and SAAB have develped the aircraft just like any other modern type.

As an aircraft for rapid deployment, the latest versions have a lot to offer, more so if you are an AF with a smaller budget, but who now is routinely deploying 'out of NATO area', which just happens to be true of Denmark and Norway.
F-35 is the front-runner, but don't rule out the latest Gripen versions, it's an under-rated aircraft IMHO.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2007-12-28 10:19:48 and read 4585 times.



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 11):
I've often wondered how the F-35 (JSF) could adequately replace the F-16 when it's clear the JSF is primarily a strike fighter whereas the F-16 is a true swing-role fighter.

The JSF is a much more potent fighter as it is being advertised at the moment. I thing this has a lot to do with gaining more F-22 orders. BTW, F-16's were forbidden to engage in aerial combat during desert storm, only when being attacked first.

Quoting GDB (Reply 12):
As an aircraft for rapid deployment, the latest versions have a lot to offer, more so if you are an AF with a smaller budget, but who now is routinely deploying 'out of NATO area', which just happens to be true of Denmark and Norway.
F-35 is the front-runner, but don't rule out the latest Gripen versions, it's an under-rated aircraft IMHO.

well said

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: DL021
Posted 2007-12-28 14:30:24 and read 4547 times.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 10):
JSF is conceived more as a strike aircraft (which is a misconception if you ask me)



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 11):
I've often wondered how the F-35 (JSF) could adequately replace the F-16 when it's clear the JSF is primarily a strike fighter whereas the F-16 is a true swing-role fighter.

I too think that the air-air capability is being seriously underplayed, and that perception is being reinforced by politicians scrambling for money who don't know the difference between an aileron and a strut. The USAF doesn't want to use F-16s for aerial superiority when it wants aerial dominance with the F-22, and is not going ot say anything that hurts its chances of ordering more, including any mention of the F-35 in anything other than a ground attack role. The F-16 does mostly that now, and it's probably not going to change.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: Mortyman
Posted 2007-12-28 15:19:04 and read 4540 times.

Post deleted ( posted before )

[Edited 2007-12-28 15:23:41]

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: Wvsuperhornet
Posted 2007-12-29 21:55:10 and read 4449 times.

I didnt even know it was in the running. Denmark and Norway both have invested a good bit of money into the F-35 program why would they want to waste that and buy another aircraft. I can maybe see them going for the gripen is something happens to the F-35 but other than that I cant see them purchasing anything else.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: DEVILFISH
Posted 2008-01-04 15:13:28 and read 4256 times.



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 3):

Not sure what this means. Assessment process would take too long? Assessment process too strict? The process is structured to evaluate the F-35 and not structured to fairly evaluate the Typhoon?

I'm hard pressed to understand why the Eurofighter consortium would walk away from even the remotest chance they could get an order out of this competition. Unspecified customers of better potential in the wings, perhaps?



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 6):

I think this might be a smart move from Eurofighter. They don;t want to be the "excuse" options, to be able to get better deals with the US, without actually having a fair chance of winning a deal. Norway and Denmark have to show real interest in Typhoon for them to re-bid.

FWIW, it looks like the consortium would have their hands full with the Saudi order and thought their efforts should best be focused there, not to mention the headstart the JSF has in both countries. Meanwhile, Gripen International is hungry for a major export order and might have impressed the Danes and Norwegians as "seriously earnest" as well as offering a very capable yet relatively inexpensive newer generation alternative - albeit minus the "stealth" advantage....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ter-quitting-danish-norwegian.html

Quote:
"The four-nation industry consortium responsible for the Eurofighter Typhoon has supported a decision to withdraw the type from EADS-led campaigns in Denmark and Norway, leaving the countries to choose between Lockheed Martin's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and Saab's Gripen.

Confirming the Typhoon's withdrawal from both competitions in late December, EADS Military Air Systems said: 'The Eurofighter consortium has made the decision to suspend its talks with Norway and Denmark about the fighter replacement programmes in both countries.'

EADS attributed the decision to 'recent adjustments in the timing and structure of the assessment process' in both nations, which sources suggest are perceived as having skewed their Lockheed F-16 replacement contests in favour of the JSF. However, Saab-led Gripen International is continuing its campaign to promote the Gripen NG (Next Generation) to both Nordic states;"

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2008-01-07 08:50:05 and read 4140 times.



Quoting DL021 (Reply 14):
I too think that the air-air capability is being seriously underplayed, and that perception is being reinforced by politicians scrambling for money who don't know the difference between an aileron and a strut. The USAF doesn't want to use F-16s for aerial superiority when it wants aerial dominance with the F-22, and is not going ot say anything that hurts its chances of ordering more, including any mention of the F-35 in anything other than a ground attack role. The F-16 does mostly that now, and it's probably not going to change.

you are correct that the F-16 is mainly used as a strike aircraft and that the F-35 is also discussed in such a manner. Nevertheless, the F-16 was originally designed as a light-weight AtA fighter. With enough F-15's available and the F-16 being an economically effective strike aircraft (I think that is the most important reason it became more a strike aircraft over the years) does not mean it's a bad AtA fighter. The same holds for JSF. It will be a remarkable AtA fighter, especially for the international partners which will use it as their only fighter aircraft.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 17):
FWIW, it looks like the consortium would have their hands full with the Saudi order and thought their efforts should best be focused there, not to mention the headstart the JSF has in both countries. Meanwhile, Gripen International is hungry for a major export order and might have impressed the Danes and Norwegians as "seriously earnest" as well as offering a very capable yet relatively inexpensive newer generation alternative - albeit minus the "stealth" advantage....

I think the Saudi-Frames will be early slots for the UK, meaning, they will take less Typhoon's themselves.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: Art
Posted 2008-01-07 09:56:13 and read 4120 times.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 18):
I think the Saudi-Frames will be early slots for the UK, meaning, they will take less Typhoon's themselves.

I asked about this possibility on the eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk site (currently offline) and was told that severe penalties would be applied to any partner nation that did not take its full allocation. Kind of makes sense when the workshare was distributed on the basis of how many each nation would take. With production flowing in four countries, I don't see how that workshare could now be changed.

However production is in 3 tranches so if it wanted to, I think Britain could bring the other partners under pressure by delaying signing tranche 3. Of course if all the partners decided they wanted less Typhoons the situation would be different.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2008-01-07 11:28:50 and read 4111 times.



Quoting Art (Reply 19):
I asked about this possibility on the eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk site (currently offline) and was told that severe penalties would be applied to any partner nation that did not take its full allocation. Kind of makes sense when the workshare was distributed on the basis of how many each nation would take. With production flowing in four countries, I don't see how that workshare could now be changed.

you don't understand, Britain takes the share of frames they signed for, it's just that they sell a bunch of them to the Saudi's.

Quoting Art (Reply 19):
However production is in 3 tranches so if it wanted to, I think Britain could bring the other partners under pressure by delaying signing tranche 3. Of course if all the partners decided they wanted less Typhoons the situation would be different.

Another possibility is this is a good thing for Tranche 3, as the Brits sell slots for earlier tranche 2 airframes, so they will get more tranche 3 airframes themselves

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: Art
Posted 2008-01-07 12:51:14 and read 4093 times.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 20):
Another possibility is this is a good thing for Tranche 3, as the Brits sell slots for earlier tranche 2 airframes, so they will get more tranche 3 airframes themselves

Precisely how it works, I was advised.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2008-01-08 10:19:09 and read 3985 times.



Quoting Art (Reply 21):
Precisely how it works, I was advised.

the most favourable option for Eurofighter

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2008-01-08 10:48:27 and read 3977 times.

BTW, the article doesn't say Eurofighter actually pulled out already, just that they might

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: GDB
Posted 2008-01-08 12:17:20 and read 3956 times.

The Saudi frames will be replaced one for one, to resume RAF deliveries for these Tranche 2 aircraft agreed in 2003.
It will delay RAF deliveries, some hostile comment on that, from the very people who also say Typhoon should have been scrapped, too expensive (the extra production for Saudi will help in this regard).

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: F27Friendship
Posted 2008-01-08 12:41:09 and read 3946 times.

It is a very interesting matter, which is connected to possible additional succesful Typhoon exports in Europe (3 countries come to mind), JSF progress and what not..

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: DEVILFISH
Posted 2008-02-26 12:19:15 and read 3708 times.

This may not be good for the Gripen's hopes in Denmark.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...Wn8AAAEAAB560@AAAAAL&modele=jdc_34

"Denmark terminates defence contract with Saab, sues for 143 mln dkr"

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_JAS-39_Weapons_Options_Eskil_Nyholm_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...eapons_Options_Eskil_Nyholm_lg.jpg

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: Art
Posted 2008-02-26 13:08:19 and read 3654 times.



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 26):
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...Wn8AAAEAAB560@AAAAAL&modele=jdc_34

Can't read the content (subscription only) but as you say, it does not look good for Saab in Denmark. Could Saab turn this round by offering extra discount off the Gripen?

Quoting GDB (Reply 24):
The Saudi frames will be replaced one for one, to resume RAF deliveries for these Tranche 2 aircraft agreed in 2003.
It will delay RAF deliveries, some hostile comment on that, from the very people who also say Typhoon should have been scrapped, too expensive (the extra production for Saudi will help in this regard).

Do the Eurofighter national partners get royalty payments on all export sales?

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: SAS A340
Posted 2008-02-26 21:36:20 and read 3564 times.



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 26):
Denmark terminates defence contract with Saab, sues for 143 mln dkr"

As i read it in the Swedish press,it's the Dane's that have broke a whitened contract with SAAB regarding a defens system for the danish Army. It came as a big surprise to SAAB and they dont know why at this time.

Quoting Art (Reply 27):
Could Saab turn this round by offering extra discount off the Gripen?

Why would they sue Denmark for several million and then offer discount to them? I would say NO! They are still gonna get the plane they think will suit them the best,Gripen or not.

Topic: RE: Eurofighter Out In Denmark & Norway?
Username: DEVILFISH
Posted 2008-02-27 07:59:16 and read 3437 times.



Quoting Art (Reply 27):
Can't read the content (subscription only) but as you say, it does not look good for Saab in Denmark. Could Saab turn this round by offering extra discount off the Gripen?



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 28):
As i read it in the Swedish press,it's the Dane's that have broke a whitened contract with SAAB regarding a defens system for the danish Army. It came as a big surprise to SAAB and they dont know why at this time.

Here is SAAB's release. It appears the negotiation was not successful.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...138AAAEAAHhhMzAAAAAE&modele=jdc_34

Danish Defence Acquisition and Logistics Organization Terminates Contract with Saab

(Source: Saab AB; issued Feb. 26, 2008)


Quote:
"During the negotiation of an amendment, Saab and FMT have had different perspectives of the prerequisites, however it's Saab's belief that the amendment now can be implemented according to FMT's specifications and that the development can continue in a dialog with the FMT.

Saab does not see any ground to terminate the contract."


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