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The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35  
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3801 posts, RR: 1
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16958 times:

The Netherlands has decided to go for JSF F35:

Argumentation is pretty much the same as the Norwegian one for buying F 35 instead of Gripen...

So far, article is only in Norwegian, sorry...

http://www.dagbladet.no/2008/12/18/n...r/jagerfly/jsf/jas_gripen/4087443/

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=545281

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlien From Romania, joined Oct 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 16839 times:

Here is a URL in English. Interesting, the Dutch conclude the F-135 superior in cost and capability as well.

I wonder what the odds are of two air forces screwing up the evaluation?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ranks-f-35-superior-to-rivals.html


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16737 times:

I think that if the JSF was build in Europe it probably would have ordered yrs ago  Wink

I expect now the European air foces are buying US jets again, the US will do the same with European aircraft if they offer superior performance.


User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1356 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 16699 times:

well,
the F-35 will be builty in Europe.
Alenia of Italy will assemble all the examples destined to Europe, at least this is according to the general agreement for the participation of Italy in the program.
Not sure if this included those for the UK.
I recall having read somewhere that, while Italy got the final assembly line, the UK wanted a more specialized job, probably to establish a centre of excellence for maintanence.
Can anybody confirm this?

Ciao

Stefano


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 16640 times:

Flight Global's article on the Dutch military report.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ranks-f-35-superior-to-rivals.html

Quote:
Dutch military report ranks F-35 superior to rivals
By Stephen Trimble
The Netherlands defence ministry has categorically endorsed the capability and affordability of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter over two of its main rivals.
Dutch undersecretary of defence Jack de Vries pronounced the F-35 superior to the Saab Gripen NG and Lockheed’s proposed F-16 Advanced, ranking the latter two fighters essentially the same in its overall assessment.
The results of the comparison fulfils a requirement imposed by the Dutch parliament and clears the defence ministry to buy two F-35s in April 2009 to participate with the USA and the UK in the JSF programme's initial operational test and evaluation phase.
"The F-35 is the best multirole combat aircraft and by around 2015 will certainly be able to carry out all six main missions successfully," de Vries says.




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 16619 times:



Quoting Steman (Reply 3):
Not sure if this included those for the UK.
I recall having read somewhere that, while Italy got the final assembly line, the UK wanted a more specialized job, probably to establish a centre of excellence for maintanence.

Well it's my understanding that the UK model will be be the only export model with basically the same capabilities as the US models, so my guess is that theirs will be built in the US.



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 16583 times:

I am still very surprise to hear that a plane is "FAR" superior to other ones, when it is still very much a paper plane.

I certainly do love this statement:

"The F-35 is the best multirole combat aircraft and by around 2015 will certainly be able to carry out all six main missions successfully," de Vries says.


The "certainly" and "by 2015" are words of conviction. But, in fact, we have only to wait until this date to see if this plane really gives what it was asked to do, or on the contrary to see some European countries feeling that they have been deceived, only that it would be too late for them.


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16519 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
I expect now the European air foces are buying US jets again, the US will do the same with European aircraft if they offer superior performance.

The tanker program comes to my mind....and that ended up in patriotism,more or less...and i have a hard time seeing the Euro fighter less competitive than a F-16 Adv. witch Jack de vries ranking almost as the same as a F-35.
The F-35 will PROBABLY be a god plane,but it's way to early to say that it is the best plane,as off today it's just barely have manage to take of...

Merry Christmas!  santahat 



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8924 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16508 times:



Quoting Tancrede (Reply 6):
I certainly do love this statement:

"The F-35 is the best multirole combat aircraft and by around 2015 will certainly be able to carry out all six main missions successfully," de Vries says.


The "certainly" and "by 2015" are words of conviction. But, in fact, we have only to wait until this date to see if this plane really gives what it was asked to do, or on the contrary to see some European countries feeling that they have been deceived, only that it would be too late for them.

The only certain things about this industry seems to be the following:

1. Cost over-runs
2. Delays



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 16457 times:



Quoting Tancrede (Reply 6):
I am still very surprise to hear that a plane is "FAR" superior to other ones, when it is still very much a paper plane.

ow is it? Why are there several planes standing on the ramp then?!


User currently offlineHighlander0 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16410 times:



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
All the partner nations will have the same level of stealth built in

Stealth yes. Full access to the A/C codes? No. This allows us to integrate what WE want rather then getting what we're given.



The Australian Defence Minister has met with Eurofighter Consortium Officials.


HERE from Jane's.

Australian DoD

On question- why goto Leeds? Huh? It's going to be freeeeeeeeezing; and grey. Big grin


User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 16318 times:

This "decision" from the Dutch MOD is not very surprising since they have been favoring the F-35 from the beginning. This "evaluation" was only done to calm the lower house down. With almost $1Bn invested in the program it's also very hard not to come to the conclusion that the F-35 is the best cost effective choice. IMO, the F-35 is the way for RNlAF to go.

What strikes me though is that de Vries says there were many unknowns around the F-16 Adv and Gripen NG, and yet he hands in the report two months in advance. Perhaps he wasn't so eager on knowing...  Smile

Hats off to him though for admitting this instead of making up his own numbers based on their F-16AM/BM's...  duck 

Quoting Alien (Reply 1):
I wonder what the odds are of two air forces screwing up the evaluation?

You can't compare Dutch "evaluation" to the Norwegian. The Dutch MOD spent a roughly a month evaluating an RFI while Norway spend 6-8 months on their RBI who had a bit more substance in it.

Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
As of today there are twice as many F-35s flying as there are Gripen NG. So that argument has even more traction with the Gripen NG. How many Gripen NG will be flying by the end of 2009? At least 12 F-35s will be flying.

The Gripen NG isn't an entirely new aircraft that has to go through a complete test program. The Gripen NG schedule is also less hurried since the EIS isn't needed until 2014. And since the Gripen NG has a lot in common with the Gripen C/D, these can be used as test beds as well (very much like LM/NG used the F-16 to test the F-35 DAS). And on top of this, there is a Gripen NG simulator and avionics rig up and running....


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 16283 times:



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
As of today there are twice as many F-35s flying as there are Gripen NG. So that argument has even more traction with the Gripen NG. How many Gripen NG will be flying by the end of 2009? At least 12 F-35s will be flying.

If you put it that way,is it the pure nr that sets it's capabilities? There are only one NG in the air as of today but that single nr has accomplish more than those F-35,therefor the NG would be a really super plane then?.....Ore could we agree on that the NG has allot in common with the C/D,s??? Off course it has,NG would probably not have 10,15 or 20 test frames!

Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
Don't buy the F-35 and don't come to us if you should need help with the Russians or (yes) the Germans.

So that's the deal right? thanks for clearing that up!

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
ow is it? Why are there several planes standing on the ramp then?!

He maybe meant that they have to do allot more than that....and it will eventually  Wink

Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
What strikes me though is that de Vries says there were many unknowns around the F-16 Adv and Gripen NG, and yet he hands in the report two months in advance. Perhaps he wasn't so eager on knowing...

Isn't he rather well known for this?  covereyes 



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16273 times:



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
As of today there are twice as many F-35s flying as there are Gripen NG. So that argument has even more traction with the Gripen NG. How many Gripen NG will be flying by the end of 2009? At least 12 F-35s will be flying.

The F-35 is only a flying prototype, very far to be operational. Also, I really doubt that this plane will ever be good in any combat situation, but that is only my personal feeling.


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16218 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
What strikes me though is that de Vries says there were many unknowns around the F-16 Adv and Gripen NG, and yet he hands in the report two months in advance. Perhaps he wasn't so eager on knowing...  

BS how do you mean 2 months early. 18th December has always been the date.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
You can't compare Dutch "evaluation" to the Norwegian. The Dutch MOD spent a roughly a month evaluating an RFI while Norway spend 6-8 months on their RBI who had a bit more substance in it.

hold your horses. THey took 3 months and even allowed SAAB more time when they asked for it.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
nd since the Gripen NG has a lot in common with the Gripen C/D,

well, the Gripen C/D wasn't even considered fit enough to take into the evalution in 2001, so I don;t think that's a very strong argument.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
And on top of this, there is a Gripen NG simulator and avionics rig up and running....

All the JSF mission systems are operational and flying on a 737 testbed.

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 15):
The F-35 is only a flying prototype, very far to be operational. Also, I really doubt that this plane will ever be good in any combat situation, but that is only my personal feeling.

the prototype flew in 2001. These are (early) production models that are flying. On what do you base your dimm expectations of F-35?


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 16185 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 17):
http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/?p=297
Translated quote:

well, let me tell you that that website is not objective. It's an anti-JSF website.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 17):
Sorry, I was way wrong... Turned out to be 4 months early.

you are mixing up stuff. The Air Force evaluation was always due this date. What you are talking about is the date when parliament decides on acquiring 2 test aircraft.

So what happens the next 4 months is that parliament will start evaluating the evaluation.


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15587 times:



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 11):
The Australian Defence Minister has met with Eurofighter Consortium Officials.


HERE from Jane's.

Didn't Australia commit to buying the F-35? Why are they looking at the Typhoon? No, I'm not anti-European or anti-Typhoon. I like the Typhoon a lot! But why would they need the Typhoon if the F-35 can do the multi-mission thing far better than the F-16 and apparently better than the Typhoon can?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12267 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 15576 times:



Quoting Tancrede (Reply 6):
I certainly do love this statement:

"The F-35 is the best multirole combat aircraft and by around 2015 will certainly be able to carry out all six main missions successfully," de Vries says.

The "certainly" and "by 2015" are words of conviction.

Yes, but it doesn't say "by 2015", it says "by around 2015"!

If we're going by A380/B787/A400M/Wedgetail/etc schedules, I'd add two years right off the top....



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineHighlander0 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15523 times:

EBJ1248650,

they didn't commit. There has been a whole fuss recently after a report was published (can't think of it off the top of my head- although I think I remember the recent RAND report being mentioned {correct me if I'm wrong})

Reading the wikipedia article (and reference) the F-35 is going to be 80% as loud as a F-15 on take off and something like 200% louder on landing (correct me if figures are wrong). I think the phrase "OUCH!!" or "WTF WAS THAT!!" comes to mind.


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15515 times:



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 22):
Reading the wikipedia article (and reference) the F-35 is going to be 80% as loud as a F-15 on take off and something like 200% louder on landing (correct me if figures are wrong). I think the phrase "OUCH!!" or "WTF WAS THAT!!" comes to mind.

that's a rather awkward way of measuring sound...


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15515 times:

I can´t understand the reasons to upgrade their fighters? Who are they going to use it on?
Helicopters and/or tiltrotors I could understand but fighters in Europe?


User currently offlineHighlander0 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 15485 times:

Oh! I was WAY off.

Quote:
In late 2008 the Air Force revealed that the F-35 would be about twice as loud at takeoff as the F-15 Eagle and up to four times as loud upon landing.

From wiki.


The reference to the above entry is the Arizona Star


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 15815 times:



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 22):
they didn't commit. There has been a whole fuss recently after a report was published (can't think of it off the top of my head- although I think I remember the recent RAND report being mentioned {correct me if I'm wrong})

Are you thinking of that F-35 "clubbed like a baby seal" thing? Seems the results of that evaluation were taken all out of context and the subsequent report caused quite a stink.

I have no problem with the Australians ordering the Typhoon. I believe it would serve them very well. It has exceptional air-to-air capabilities, as I understand it, and its air-to-ground capabilities continue to expand. Frankly, I'm not well versed on the differences between the F-35 and the Typhoon so I honestly don't know what the Australians would loose if they choose not to go the F-35 route.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15772 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 23):
that's a rather awkward way of measuring sound...

% is not the scale witch the sound is measuring in right? I think we get the picture!!

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 26):
have no problem with the Australians ordering the Typhoon. I believe it would serve them very well. It has exceptional air-to-air capabilities, as I understand it, and its air-to-ground capabilities continue to expand. Frankly, I'm not well versed on the differences between the F-35 and the Typhoon so I honestly don't know what the Australians would loose if they choose not to go the F-35 route.

Very true!! I have read that there have been some issue with Australia and the F-35 and that it depended more on that they wanted the F-22.....tough i like Typhoon..i don't know witch one that would serve them the best....



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15688 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 24):
I can´t understand the reasons to upgrade their fighters? Who are they going to use it on?
Helicopters and/or tiltrotors I could understand but fighters in Europe?

Only 9 years ago with had the biggest air campaign since the second world war over Kosovo where the Dutch had a very big contribution (first to enter Serbian Airspace).

Right now they form the backbone of close-air-support in Afghanistan

You might want to open your eyes a bit..


25 Highlander0 : I'd hazard a (and let me emphasis this) GUESS that the main loss would be the loss of "stealth" capability. But if something is invisible to radar- wh
26 Post contains links DEVILFISH : This release from LM indicates that is being addressed..... http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...9ae_f-35settingrecordstraight.html Quote: "The F-3
27 Joecanuck : One reason Australia might be considering the Typhoon could be the same reason Canada chose the f-18 over the f-16; both countries have huge expanses
28 MCIGuy : Well yeah, stealth comes mainly from the materials and the shape of the structure so they're all going to have the same level of stealth, obviously.
29 Baroque : How about the links that they give? One does not seem to work, but the other is not that complimentary (either). Not knowing Dutch, you could always
30 Post contains images Keesje : For the last 15 yrs we have been bombing frequently Bosnia, Serbia, Afghanistan maybe Iraq (officially denied). Air to air only the usual intercepts
31 Baroque : But with a plane designed at least in part as a bomber?
32 JoeinTX : "One reason Australia might be considering the Typhoon could be the same reason Canada chose the f-18 over the f-16; both countries have huge expanses
33 Highlander0 : Well- if you're looking at a fighter I'd say the chips are in the EF2000s corner surely? Had a cracking night out there! Hmmm I think I might have to
34 Post contains links F27Friendship : well, they usually link to official documents or other news media and then present a rewritten"summary" of it's content portraying it as mere fact st
35 F27Friendship : wow this is going further then I thought. Just googled his name again. On this website (http://www.nordensnyheter.no/Default.aspx?Id=596 ) he made it
36 Prebennorholm : The political system works a little slower in Denmark, but as it seems today there is little doubt that Denmark will soon make the same decision. The
37 Post contains links TGIF : Contrary to what the title of the thread says, no decision has been done yet. A Dutch committee will apparently visit Sweden this week to talk about G
38 SAS A340 : Is this nr regarding the F-35 ore overall? So Denmark could have,if this is correct up to 80 Gripen NG for the same price as 40 F-35...ore if they go
39 Tugger : But does it come with a free replacement guarantee? Lifetime cost guarantees don't do much good if you have to double up and replace one that was los
40 F27Friendship : you can also buy 90 Kia Rio's for the same price as 30 Mercedes C180's It all depends what kind of "car" you're looking for
41 SAS A340 : In Norway's calculations 50% (i think) would have crashed within 30 years so in that case.....hell NO!!! Very very true!
42 DYflyer : That sounds like a lot. We have only lost 13 F16s of the 74 we bought. I don't think we would calculate with such a huge increase in losses in the fu
43 Post contains links and images SAS A340 : The cost for replacing aircraft is part of the estimation, with the assumption that almost half of the aircraft fleet will crash in 35 years. This is
44 Post contains links TGIF : I saw 24 frames being mentioned somewhere. As you said, with only 24 frames there aren’t many left for overseas operations, since most will be need
45 Post contains links SAS A340 : "The Dutch Ministry of Defence's plan to replace its F-16 fighter planes by 2014 is premature, according to research carried out at Leiden University
46 F27Friendship : just for the purpose of correctness, De Vries is from the Christian Democrats (CDA), the member of parliament putting pressure on him is from the Cri
47 TGIF : Thanks for the correction, sorry if I confused anyone! I learned Dutch from speaking Swedish, German and English and it only works to some degree.
48 LifelinerOne : Well, there is more pressure for De Vries than just the Christen Unie (CU). Also the PvdA (Labour Party) is pressing for the same. So from the three
49 F27Friendship : it's making me sick really. We have one of the most professional and effective air forces in the world because we let our professionals decide what i
50 Post contains links DEVILFISH : In a related development, there seems to be positive indications on the different sticking points..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-strike-
51 Post contains images SAS A340 : I'm pretty sure that this is a way to put some pressure on LM,and i think you are fully entitle to know how much to pay,the alternative is if costs g
52 F27Friendship : well, if you would be familiar with Dutch politics and the history of this project in the Netherlands you will know this is not the case. we are talk
53 Post contains links and images SAS A340 : Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 55): well, if you would be familiar with Dutch politics and the history of this project in the Netherlands you will know
54 LifelinerOne : Yeah, in some way your right. But the professionals are there to serve us. If we choose a different machine and therefore role for the RNLAF than the
55 F27Friendship : The politicians who have been backing JSF from the start ( 2002 ) are not taking part in this. It's the politicians who rather see JSF dissappear tha
56 Post contains links TGIF : If the Netherlands order the test aircrafts, Saab will pull out. If the deal would be the same if the Dutch government returns to Saab in 2010, that
57 LifelinerOne : Says who? Since 1996 (Plan Vervanging F-16) the tasks of the air force have been gradually changing in supporting peace-keeping and humanitarian miss
58 F27Friendship : We are probably the NATO force that transformed fastest to the post-coldwar situation. Mind you that the JSF is the only fighter program for which th
59 TGIF : First off, thanks for an interesting discussion regarding the Dutch domestic politics. Guessing this is more of a rhetorical question but I'll answer
60 Post contains links TGIF : Will this make you feel any better? If true, there's IMO nothing in the way of the F-35 (if there ever was). Has this been discussed in any Dutch med
61 Post contains links Oldeuropean : Seems that the order isn't 100% sure. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-opt-to-postpone-jsf-decision.html Axel
62 F27Friendship : well... We're staying in the development phase by investing 113M$ in the build of the first test aircraft. This will be reviewed again by parliament n
63 LifelinerOne : Indeed. Although former Chief of Staff Dick Berlijn said that the air force could do with less than 85 F-35's. This number was the original forecast
64 F27Friendship : well hold on there.. They will have to form a coalition and the only possibility I see is with CDA and VVD, both strong supporters of JSF. Still, 201
65 Post contains links SAS A340 : We are now a bit in the year of 2013 and it seems like the dutch future fighter (F-35) goes further down,from origin 85 units to 60 and now down to 3
66 F27Friendship : I saw that... We now have a coalition of VVD (proponent) with PvdA (original backer of program, but opponent for populistic reasons lately. This is a
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