Quote: BANGALORE, India - After years of denial, a Russian defense official conceded that China had produced its own "fake" version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.
"We are in discussions with China on this issue," said Mikhail Pogosyan, first vice president on program coordination, Russian Aircraft Corp., during a press conference here at the Aero India trade show.
The "discussions" probably go something like this:
Russia: "You copied our fighter".
China: "So, what are you going to do about it?"
End of discussion.
Quote: Chang does not believe China will honor the intellectual property agreement, or any agreement with Russia, and will continue to develop the J-11B as a totally indigenous aircraft. However, China will move cautiously until it secures deals for the Su-33 carrier-based fighter. China is beginning to build its first aircraft carrier and needs Russian technology and experience, Chang said.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 3949 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (12 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5492 times:
(cue sarcasm) Just when the Chinese aviation industry was beginning to upgrade to making knock-off American planes they go back to the Russians. When will they ever learn. (end sarcasm)
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (12 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5381 times:
My understanding is that there are some unique differences between Chinese-made Su-27's and Russian Su-27's; electronics and weapons fit is a major one, plus materials in construction. The Chinese apparantly are using more composites in their Su-27's vice titanium.
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5332 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 3): Depends on what version. I really doubt any J-11B can come close to a Su-35BM in most aspects.
Of course not. But it does suggest the Chinese are willing and able to modify foreign designs as needed, and not just be satisfied with plain copying them.
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 5750 posts, RR: 7 Reply 5, posted (12 months 23 hours ago) and read 5300 times:
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4): Of course not. But it does suggest the Chinese are willing and able to modify foreign designs as needed, and not just be satisfied with plain copying them.
This is not news. Look at the Q-5 and JL-9.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1579 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4945 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter): Quote:
Chang does not believe China will honor the intellectual property agreement, or any agreement with Russia, and will continue to develop the J-11B as a totally indigenous aircraft. However, China will move cautiously until it secures deals for the Su-33 carrier-based fighter. China is beginning to build its first aircraft carrier and needs Russian technology and experience, Chang said.
This doesn't make a bit of sense. China won't honor the intellectual property agreement but needs to secure deals (read secure a contract to license produce the SU-33) so will move cautiously. What exactly is "cautiously" when they've come out and said they won't honor the agreement? Seems to me they've opened the door to Russian refusal to provide any technical assistance whatsoever.
Oroka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4915 times:
Kinda funny, China is saying 'a copy of a copy would not be a good aircraft', but I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that when a Russian military aircraft designer visited a Chinese fighter factory, he said the quality coming out of China was superior to the Russian produced version!
And that is what Russia get for selling anything to China.
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4886 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6): This doesn't make a bit of sense. China won't honor the intellectual property agreement but needs to secure deals (read secure a contract to license produce the SU-33) so will move cautiously. What exactly is "cautiously" when they've come out and said they won't honor the agreement? Seems to me they've opened the door to Russian refusal to provide any technical assistance whatsoever.
Well, it depends. We only have one side of the story; the Chinese could very well respond that they have the right to modify the design as needed as they were allowed to increase domestic made content on the design, so that they could eventually produce the aircraft independently, as long as they don't export the aircraft as per the original contract.
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1579 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4876 times:
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 8): Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6):
This doesn't make a bit of sense. China won't honor the intellectual property agreement but needs to secure deals (read secure a contract to license produce the SU-33) so will move cautiously. What exactly is "cautiously" when they've come out and said they won't honor the agreement? Seems to me they've opened the door to Russian refusal to provide any technical assistance whatsoever.
Well, it depends. We only have one side of the story; the Chinese could very well respond that they have the right to modify the design as needed as they were allowed to increase domestic made content on the design, so that they could eventually produce the aircraft independently, as long as they don't export the aircraft as per the original contract.
You make a good point. If that's true, the Russians have nothing to complain about. However, something tells me this has nothing to do with contract agreements nearly so much as it has to do with Russian fears the Chinese will make their mark on the arms market, to the discomfort of the Russian aircraft industry.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3191 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4874 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6): What exactly is "cautiously" when they've come out and said they won't honor the agreement? Seems to me they've opened the door to Russian refusal to provide any technical assistance whatsoever.
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9): However, something tells me this has nothing to do with contract agreements nearly so much as it has to do with Russian fears the Chinese will make their mark on the arms market, to the discomfort of the Russian aircraft industry.
This is Chinese "brinksmanship" of the first order. They're banking on the fact that the Russians value their custom, and don't have anybody else with deeper pockets or bigger plans than the Peoples' Republic, to take their business to.
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 1805 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4814 times:
The chinese will blatantly copy anything and when they copy, it is exact. I was in China last year and the Chery QQ made me laugh. It is such an exact copy of the Daewoo Matiz that the doors are interchangeable. Of course, it was just an uncanny coincidence...right...? If you don't believe them, just ask them.
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 209 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3100 times:
I've done some digging, and I think I know why the Russian's aren't too happy right now...
It stems around that the Russians were seriously hoping that the original Su-27SKs and J-11s would get their template of the upgrade treatment. That is defined as the Su-27SKM. What it does is basically advance that plane to the Su-30MK2 level, with upgraded N001VEP radar and all. The Russians were also seriously optimistic the PLAAF would bite and so did defence periodicals.
That turned out not to be. This is understandable from many vantage points; the radar is verging on being obsolete by its mechanical design, and upgrading the back end will only go so far. Furthermore, the Russians are only willing to sell you a downgrade from the same systems used on their own planes. This makes the problem even worst. On top of that, the wonder Russian sales tactics they employ (they make you pay through the roof for a downgraded export version), the Chinese aren't biting.
Now the Chinese have rolled out their J-11B; complete with indigenous avionics, radar, weapons, and engines. This may prove to be the template that current Su-27's, J-11's, and even the Su-30MKK's in PLAAF service will be upgraded with, minus the engines and more composites. This is a serious blow to the Russians; they essentially lost the upgrade market to almost 300 aircraft, and any additional sales of Flanker's, worth billions of dollars.
I get the feeling that the proposed Su-33 purchase was done rather half-heartily by the Chinese; they were stalling throughout the negotiations because they knew they had domestic options that are on the way, and they wanted the Su-33 as a fall back plan just in case those options don't work out. Coupled with the general lack of speed in the Chinese carrier programme, the Chinese were negotiating from the position of 'don't really need it, but nice to have', and I think the Russians may have misjudged the Chinese position badly.
DingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2625 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15): Wonder what's next from The People's Republic of Xerox.
Hey! It's more cost-effective to copy than to invent, after all. I have to respect their keen eye on economics.
OK, with that said (I was somewhat kidding)...
Reminds me of a '60s French advertisement showing a little girl at an airport pointing at a Boeing jet? and exclaiming something along the lines of "They copied the Caravelle!" Since that was so long ago, I unfortunately don't recall more about that one. But was quite memorable.
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