Quote: "In January 2009, India began a pair of follow-on competitions in order to fill exactly these roles, and now a new competitor has been unveiled at Aero India 2009.
Reports indicate that India's Ministry of Defence has issued an RFP for 6 medium-range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft. They will replace the aging Islander fleet, which may be shifted to a training role, handed over to the cost guard, or even gifted to other countries like the 2 that were given as a gift to the Myanmar junta.
The coast guard's requirements also involve 6 aircraft, but they will require less sophisticated equipment. The aircraft will need to have a range of over 500 nautical miles, and an endurance of around 6 hours.
These are easy criteria to meet, and there are a number of contenders. At least 2 of the rumored Navy contenders participated in India's previous maritime patrol aircraft competition."
"Jan 12/09: Reports surface that India’s Navy and Coast Guard have issued their MRMR solicitations, and rumored candidates are identified in the press."
DID's preliminary assessment of the candidates showed the Embraer P-99 minus the underwing weapons and the Antonov AN-74 with the "coanda effect" engine mounting vice the more conventional underwing position used for their latest delivery to Libya.
Embraer would likely leverage their local E145 tie-up as they promised to keep the C-390 out of the Indian market for as long as the Indo-Russian MTA remains an ongoing proposition. Perhaps it's also the reason we don't read about Ilyushin's 114 being entered.
Quoting PP705 (Reply 23):
They are likely to replace the Russian built maritime surveillance which are presently being used by the Indian Air Force.
The IAF is also looking for medium-range MARPAT aircraft to replace current assets.....
"India is set to begin a competition for six medium-range maritime patrol aircraft, with the fleet to complement the eight Boeing P-8Is that New Delhi ordered earlier this month.
'Our country needs newer aircraft with a bigger range than the Islanders to effectively patrol our long coastline,' says a source close to the Indian defence ministry. 'Several aircraft, both jets and turboprops, could be in contention for this contract.' A request for proposals could come out imminently and a decision should follow within a year, the source adds."
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 29): Post 26/11....There is likely to be a boost to the Coast guard fleet.
In that regard, I'll correct my post above about Antonov's possible entry.....
Antonov Will Represent a New Version of AN-74 in India
(Source: Antonov ASTC; issued February 9, 2009)
"For the first time the programme of AN-74 new multi-role maritime patrol aircraft will be represented to a wide aviation community. At present, this version of the aircraft is being studied by experts of MoD of India within the frame of tender on delivery of 6 aircraft of such a class for Navy and Coast Guard of the country.
The new AN-74 is prepared to fulfill with a high efficiency a wide spectrum of military tasks including: aerial and maritime patrolling, support of military ships with the possibility to counteract to an enemy, carrying out search and rescue operations; electronic and radio reconnaissance; determination of pollution of the sea surface."
Quote: "There are rumors that Boeing would offer a modified version of the P-8i for the medium range role as well. A modified P-8i would offer commonality, handle required industrial offsets smoothly, and may include some savings due to a larger order volume, but the platform itself is not cheap. Cost is likely to be the biggest stumbling block for this option.
I think the B738 is too big and expensive for this mission. A derivative of their 736 might be more suited, besides possibly adding a few more "higher value" orders for that model.....
Shmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 451 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 15450 times:
You'd wonder why they dont sign up for BAMS with some medium endurance UAVs thrown in since that was precisely the kind of role the P-8I was envisaged for with a hi-low capability Navalised global hawk downwards.
but maybe the admiralty in Delhi haven't even heard of BAMS?
Quote: "2011-01-06 Swedish defense major Saab has confirmed to India Defence (indiadefence.in) that the SAAB 340 Maritime Security Aircraft and the SAAB 2000 Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft have been offered to the Indian Coast Guard and Indian Navy respectively to meet the security and surveillance requirements across India's vast coastline.
'We have already made a presentation to Coast Guard for SAAB 340 Maritime Security Aircraft as a contender for Mid-Tier Maritime Patrol (MTMP) aircraft program and are waiting for further updates from them'."
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 3): Also, can any one of the above candidates accommodate at least 2 Harpoons?
Quote: "In order to extend the P-8 fleet's reach, and provide additional capabilities, the Poseidon is expected to work with at least one companion platform under the BAMS (Broad Area Maritime Surveillance) and/or PUMAS (Persistent Unmanned Aerial Surveillance) programs. This DID FOCUS Article explains the winning BAMS concept, the program's key requirements, and its international angle. We'll also cover ongoing contracts and key events related to the program, which chose Northrop Grumman's navalized RQ-4N Global Hawk."
Curious that they are now reviving this after cancelling it just over a year ago.....
Quote: "India has cancelled a request for proposals for six medium-range maritime patrol aircraft that it planned to operate in tandem with eight Boeing P-8Is it bought earlier in 2009.
'The defence ministry and the navy had asked for the proposals, but they withdrew the tender a few months ago,' says an industry source close to the ministry. 'There is no indication of when a fresh tender will be issued, although it appears as though this procurement has gone down in the navy's list of priorities'."
Quote: "The US Navy is mishandling its new high-altitude surveillance unmanned air vehicle programme, says a Pentagon inspector general (IG) report, after failing to validate more than $329 million in bills from Northrop Grumman and being unable to reach a work-sharing agreement with the US Air Force.
If the problems persist, 'the BAMS program is at risk for increased costs, schedule delays and not meeting the needs of the war fighter,' the IG says.
Northrop won the $1.2 billion Broad Area Maritime Surveillance contract in April 2008 with the offering of a navy-specific version of the USAF's RQ-4 Global Hawk high-altitude, long-endurance UAV. A revision in February 2009 took the deal's total value to $1.8 billion. The IG estimates the eventual value of BAMS at $19 billion, with 40 UAVs to be deployed at five bases around the world."
Quote: "NEW DELHI: With terror as well as conventional threats emanating from sea remaining a clear and present danger, India wants to keep hawk-eyed tabs on the entire Indian Ocean Region (IOR). And, if required, 'kill' any threat before it approaches Indian shores.
This comes at a time when the government, jolted out of its slumber by the 26/11 terror strikes in Mumbai, is also going in for a major upgrade of the Coast Guard's air wing.
Incidentally, the MRMR procurement process had also begun some years ago but it got derailed due to a single-vendor situation."
Shmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 451 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14845 times:
So MRMR and UAV's???
typical - buy a plane (P8) ignore its advantages - add one more unnecessary layer of planes in-between - which probably wont be integrated with BAMS plus a UAV which as of now may/may not be BAMS compatible. But of course more layers means more kickbacks.
Since those attackers came in on a fishing boat - thousands of fishing boast of the Mumbai kind go in and out of international waters every single day without being checked - I'm curious to know how these planes could have stopped that attack. This reporter's obviously clueless and brainless. He's gone to the navy briefing and swallowed what the admiral told him hook line and sinker - without ever bothering to ask questions.
What's even more surprising is that the officer who gave this briefing obviously got away with
1) telling a blatant lie (single vendor situation last time)
2) fabricating a solution (MRMR and UAV's will be able to detect a Mumbai style landing)
.... makes you wonder of the calibre of naval decision making in India.
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 9): Also, it cites a lone-vendor scenario caused the cancellation of the previous tender.....
Typical crappy - un-fact-checked reporting as expected from the scandal sheet TOI has become. Here's the brief that accompanied the cancellation the last time round
Quote: Sources say that Brazil's Embraer, which already has a maritime patrol version of its EMB-145 and is helping to modify the same type for an indigenous Indian air force airborne early warning and control requirement, was a possible contender.
Boeing had offered a modified version of the P-8I, while Israel's Elta Systems has been pushing a maritime patrol variant of the Dassault Falcon 900 business jet. Northrop Grumman was also hoping to compete with its E-2D, while other turboprop alternatives were maritime patrol variants of the ATR 72 and the EADS Casa C-295.
Perhaps Boeing has more to offer in terms of Industrial Kick backs (off sets). The type of technology learned by building 787 components may be more desirable than the type of technology learned by building EMB-145 components?
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4452 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14730 times:
Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 10): This reporter's obviously clueless and brainless. He's gone to the navy briefing and swallowed what the admiral told him hook line and sinker - without ever bothering to ask questions.
What's even more surprising is that the officer who gave this briefing obviously got away with
1) telling a blatant lie (single vendor situation last time)
At the risk of sounding extremely naive, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and accept that a sole-source solicitation could ensue as just one candidate could meet both capability and offset requirements (despite the article saying the criteria were not too demanding.)
Shmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 451 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14712 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 11): The type of technology learned by building 787 components may be more desirable than the type of technology learned by building EMB-145
That would be true if HAL was building more than just the doors of Airbus planes and F-18 wheel stowage doors for Boeing. As of now India has yet to build a commercially successful glider - leave alone anything powered.... heck if we could build a diamond D-20 class plane and make it commercially successful - even that would be a step up..... since the last i checked doors don't fly - unless they're attached to a plane
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 12): You will find that the PK defense forum you referenced just lifted the information from the latter part of the last linked report in Post #5.
Ya dude - i nicked that from ur link ...thanks -
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 12): a sole-source solicitation could ensue as just one candidate could meet both capability and offset requirements
well nothing earth shattering has happened in capability terms these last 2 years .... so why do they think anything's going to be different? One definition of madness - doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4724 posts, RR: 17 Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 14498 times:
Dumb question:The graphic for BAMS shows a critical dependence on GPS - How would India get away from that? Do they have their own positioning satellites with wartime - level redundancy? What if those scary Chinese hunter-killer satellites are prowling nearby?
Thanks for the answer. I was also curious about India being so dependent on US satellites -much has been discussed about India not becoming beholden to nay single country's technology. Is the US GPS system an unconditional gift to the world like the Internet?
1) Getting ISRO to slowly develop the capability for an independent com-sat network - such as work on GAGAN which is mean to steer civilian flights on independent decision making without ground control. Of course given ISRO/DRDO proclivity for labelling imported parts as "indigenous" we don't know how much tech is actually "indigenous"
2) Persistent report of India teaming up with Russia on the GLONASS sat-nav system (but given Russian high-handedness and bullying - operational "independence" is highly dubious) . Also these reports are very confusing. Some say joint development, some say Russia will grant access, some say Russia will sell a share etc etc etc.
3) Ratifying the CISMOA comms interoperability agreement - that India just doesn't trust America enough to ratify at the moment and is bitterly opposed on op-sec ground by all 3 services... and obviously America just loves to have a final veto on military ops.
4) Joining the European Galileo programme - but problem is much of the sensitive equipment on this is of US origin - so CISMOA restrictions will apply.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15): I would not think China would take down any GPS satellite if the shooting was only with India.
Depends on the situation - faced with desperation - especially vis-a-vis their operation disadvantage operating off the Tibet Plateau they just might. Even supposing it sets a bad precedent (i.e its okay to shoot down satellites and violate the freedoms of outer space) a dumbed down low tech scenario - where everyone is denied satellite access will work in their favour due to the sheer weight of numbers - and un-usability of any/all sat-aided systems thereby rendering any "hi-tech" arsenal useless.
Quoting comorin (Reply 16): Is the US GPS system an unconditional gift to the world like the Internet?
It is in a manner of speaking. While everyone can use it - there are classified military modes - super accurate modes - which are shared only with closest allies. Also if the US desires they can target a specific geographic area for disinformation - by downloading wrong coordinates during hostilities.
GolfOscarDelta From India, joined Feb 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14327 times:
Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 17): Of course given ISRO/DRDO proclivity for labelling imported parts as "indigenous" we don't know how much tech is actually "indigenous"
Mate I have a bunch of close relatives and friends who work on the project and I can confirm that unlike the engines for the new big rocket that ISRO operates, the GAGAN system is indigenous. GAGAN and the new upcoming reusable launch vehicle are both complete inhouse projects.
Also from the information I have from my ISRO sources there is going to be no teaming up with the Russians. India is going have a go at the IRNSS by themselves.
I was in BLR for the last 2 weeks and found it hard to get online. It's impossible to get a SIM for a 3G stick if you're a non- res. Even harder to get it to work after endless phone calls. Anyway, nothing to beat BLR weather, coffee and dosas...
You and GOD bring up GAGAN so my question about not relying on US GPS is answered. Nevertheless, I am still concerned about the use of military style assets to combat terrorism via fishing boats. India's big issues are terrorism and insurgency, and these are not good candidates for military solutions. While the MRMR is necessary for littoral surveillance, it does not address the infiltration concern.
With the indulgence of the mods, I wonder if you or GOD can help me pinpoint the two books recently released on Naval Carrier and Nuclear Strategy that were reviewed in the Hindu a week ago. I am really curious about what is driving a huge and costly arms-build up build up in India. Many thanks!
Shmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 451 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 14300 times:
Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 18): GAGAN and the new upcoming reusable launch vehicle are both complete inhouse projects.
Good to know - i know they start up indigenous - but when they hit technological blocks - the whole story changes - lets see - first let the SATS and REV go up - then we'll wait for the CAG report and see exactly how "indigenous" they turn out.
Quoting comorin (Reply 19): India's big issues are terrorism and insurgency, and these are not good candidates for military solutions.
Not by themselves - but with the BAMS paraphernalia+ they are. What you basically need is long distance persistent surveillance - networking and an integrated sea control system - that then feeds into harbour police-coast guard -and immigration computers..
Persistant surveillance will help you mark and track those boats that have
1) entered pakistani water/docked at pak harbours and then re-enter Indian waters.
2) Those boats leaving Indian waters - that then rendezvous on the high seas with boats that left pak waters
3) The Long Range aspect (The P8) help you track small Indian fishing boats that rendezvous with Pakistani commercial/naval shipping far out at sea to avoid detection.
This of course is purely technical - there is a whole load of morale - training - work culture - professionalism - seriousness - etc etc which we have 0 signs of at the moment.
The global hawk is more of a long range asset - But the global observer - mariner combo would be a fantastic persistent surveillance - medium surveillance combo. -
There is a 3rd option that is much cheaper - Super HF radars that are not limited by Horizon - Line of Sight considerations that look out to 400nm+ and can pinpoint even rubber dinghy's at that distance. The Raytheon system for Canada has just started installation and the Thales-Onera System for France has just produced some spectacular results.
Quoting comorin (Reply 19): While the MRMR is necessary for littoral surveillance, it does not address the infiltration concern.
It can with the right equipment - that said the Indian Armed Forces can be relied on to NOT do the right thing these days.
Quoting comorin (Reply 19): I am really curious about what is driving a huge and costly arms-build up build up in India.
SJS - Shiny jet syndrome as a fellow A Netter told me. Or As the late great Peter Ustinov said "As for being a General, well, at the age of four with paper hates and wooden swords, we're all Generals. Only some of us never grow out of it."
That said remember - this is a 2 pronged Pakistani strategy - similar to the one China hopes to play against the US by shielding rogue states like Iran and DPRK. Basically you are forced to invest heavily in a low intensity subset while you ignore/under-fund/divert resources from the traditional "high" intensity subset. They then gain a high intesity advantage and hit you with their regular arsenal. ... If you continue to ignore the low intesity subset - you pay a VERY heavy price in terms of national morale by repeated acts of terror.
And of course knowing India - and it being in our DNA to turn on ourselves - its a very effective card to play....
Quoting comorin (Reply 19): can help me pinpoint the two books recently released on Naval Carrier and Nuclear Strategy that were reviewed in the Hindu a week ago.
Yup, that's it! Many thanks. I had kept the page aside but the cleaning lady in Bangalore used it to wrap up the remnants of my Idli-Chutney and threw it away. I'll ask my Admiral 'uncle' in Delhi to ship me copies.
The big thing in India when I was there was the J20 - it was in all the papers. This means a few more billions for the IAF when what we need are clean public restrooms and sanitation, along with education.
Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 20): Aye - spied on a udipi with binoculars to get the secret of their dosa batter - it really has paid off.
That's quite an intelligence feat! You aren't called SMERSH for nothing!
Quote: "India is readying requests for proposals for two maritime patrol requirements: the navy's medium-range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft and the coastguard's medium maritime patrol (MMP) aircraft. Both are likely to be for six aircraft initially, with options for six more, say industry sources, although the initial requirement for the MMP could be as high as nine aircraft.
Speaking to Flight International at the Defexpo India show, where airframers displayed models of maritime patrol aircraft, the sources indicate that requests linked to both projects are expected in 2012, with the coastguard's process to start in April or May. India issued requests for information (RFI) for both acquisitions in 2010."
Quote: "India has issued a request for information (RFI) on nine turbofan aircraft capable of performing a range of roles such as surveying, target towing, communications intelligence and signals intelligence (SIGINT).
Of the nine aircraft, two will be dedicated SIGINT platforms. The other seven will have equipment installed for survey and target towing missions, and three of these will have equipment installed for communications jamming (COMJAM).
In addition, the aircraft must be capable of being converted to a passenger or cargo transport configuration at the flight line level, have a galley suitable for catering to 15 personnel, and a fully enclosed toilet."
So turboprops like this won't be in the running?.....
Quote: "Paul Francis, Raytheon UK's head of airborne solutions, says the Sentinel's dual-mode radar could also possibly be given software-based changes to enable it to provide a maritime patrol capability to search for, track and identify surface vessels."
A pity that those will not be considered. Backup for the grounded E-3s?
Devilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4452 posts, RR: 1 Reply 26, posted (10 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6763 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 25): Boeing is teaming up with EMBRAER on a smaller version of the P-8. So perhaps they are waiting for details of that configuration to be released before re-evaluating the competition.
I was thinking of a 73G variant for this, since it was already used for the RAAF, RoKAF and TAF AEW&C platforms.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 25): Seems like India likes working with Boeing, and the EMBRAER airframe better fits the scope of this competition.
However, as the IAF has just received the first E-145 for fitment of their indigenous AEW&C suite.....
.....it's highly likely that the same airframe would be the platform of choice for these roles. Unless they go for the unexpected and pick the E170... or the much larger, in-development C-390 - which would take so much longer.