Greaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1081 posts, RR: 4 Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9404 times:
Don't know who saw the 'investigative' piece by CNN today, but arguing that further F-22 production is unneeded "because we are not fighting China or Russia", but "fighting a deficit", come on. I know Robert Gates said 180-190 is enough, but I think a lot of brass disagree. The F-22 is an investment in air superiority. CNN's claim is that the program is being run solely for jobs, and that we wont need them anyway because 'most of the countries we attack don't have significant AA ability'. It's amazing how quickly people forget why the US (and any other country) gets caught off guard.
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5129 posts, RR: 29 Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9381 times:
I seem to recall a F-117 got shot down over Bosnia, which isn't Russia or China but they had Russian equipment. AA technology is for sale to whomever can afford it.
Osiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3182 posts, RR: 25 Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9357 times:
CNN has gone right downhill ever since Turner sold it. While there is certainly some truth to the fact that the US deficit is troubling, the only reason it's getting any play is because Iraq is quiet and no planes have crashed/hurricanes/earthquakes/etc. exist to have them terrify their viewers.
CNN has become just as bad as Fox for sensationalizing things. Just with a different spin.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10569 posts, RR: 21 Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9279 times:
Quoting Greaser (Thread starter): CNN's claim is that the program is being run solely for jobs
Aren't we doing a lot of that kind of thing anyway, with support from both political parties?
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9261 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 4): CNN's claim is that the program is being run solely for jobs
Aren't we doing a lot of that kind of thing anyway, with support from both political parties?
Its happening all over the world. Governments & their electorates hate to close good companies / product lines & put skilled labor forces & their families on the street.
Free market mechanism are put in the fridge.. Who would have thought so 2 yrs ago.
MCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9224 times:
I'd rather have them and not need them then to need them and not have them.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 2): I seem to recall a F-117 got shot down over Bosnia, which isn't Russia or China but they had Russian equipment. AA technology is for sale to whomever can afford it.
Yeah, I've related this here before but it was a lucky shot with a low frequency radar, very hard to duplicate.
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9214 times:
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 6): but it was a lucky shot with a low frequency radar, very hard to duplicate.
It wasn't all that lucky. One of the pilots I flew with operated F117s over Bosnia during that time. Entry and exit corridors were very limited not only in airspace but time as well. After a few runs through those corridors the radar operators learned what to look for and were able to lock in on it.
Killing the F22 at this time will do nothing for stimulus. I really can't stand the news outlets anymore.
MCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9208 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 7): It wasn't all that lucky. One of the pilots I flew with operated F117s over Bosnia during that time. Entry and exit corridors were very limited not only in airspace but time as well. After a few runs through those corridors the radar operators learned what to look for and were able to lock in on it.
Sure, predictable ingress/egress paths do make things easier for an adversary. That could be fixed with better planning and ROEs. Still, low freq radars show every little speck in the sky as well as some ground clutter, so it's a matter of picking the right return to make sure you're not shooting at a bug. The flight paths also wouldn't be as predictable in a full scale war, making things tougher for air defense people.
JakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1247 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9175 times:
Ahhh yes, and what is CNN's solution to our already aging F-15 fleet? Hell, there's not near enough F-22s as it is now.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9129 times:
The F-117 shoot down never should have happened. The Air Force let their guard down and became complacent.
The F-22 has become the media's favorite whipping boy as an example of government waste. There are all of these journalists trying to make a name for themselves by slamming the greatest fighter ever made. If any of them knew just how good the F-22 is, they'd change their tune pretty quickly.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Greaser From Bahamas, joined Jan 2004, 1081 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9082 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 7): I really can't stand the news outlets anymore.
The slant on the news is terrible, and has only gotten worse. The BBC and PBS are two of a few legit sources. They dont put emotion and opinion so blatantly in as it is in the case for CNN's reporting on the F-22, the C-17, and the Commanche
Max550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1114 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9049 times:
Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 9): Ahhh yes, and what is CNN's solution to our already aging F-15 fleet?
It's especially interesting when they also sensationalize every crash an F-15 has and say that the type is falling apart and should all be pulled from service. (I know they didn't go that far, but you know what I mean)
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7506 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9021 times:
Quoting Greaser (Thread starter): I know Robert Gates
said 180-190 is enough, but I think a lot of brass disagree.
Just like 100,000 troops was enough to hold Iraq? (It was, but Iraq got rotted out in the process).
Besides, what is "enough?" What if that calculation is slightly wrong? Is that really something we want to think about? This is the most important global dominance/defense weapon we are going to have, in some ways.
Quoting Greaser (Thread starter): but arguing that further F-22 production is unneeded "because we are not fighting China or Russia",
Of course we have to be on guard versus China. Should we wait until a serious problem with China to start inventing the technology to defeat them? I don't think our military wants to be outclassed by Hu Jintao's forces. That would alter world geopolitics in strange new ways.
Joperrin89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 24 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8999 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 13): but arguing that further F-22 production is unneeded "because we are not fighting China or Russia",
Yes this is a rediculas claim from CNN. Almost if not every country, terrorist orginazation ect, that is hostile tward the United States uses either Russian or Chinese weapons.
Have we allready forgotten Vietnam??? We were fighting North Vietnam, not china or Russia. The VC and north vietnamese were using almost nothing but state of the art Soviet SAM's and MIG's.
The F-22 is a long term investment in the superiority of the United States Air Force. It frustrates and saddens me that so many in the media cannot see this.
JakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1247 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8928 times:
Quoting Max550 (Reply 12): It's especially interesting when they also sensationalize every crash an F-15 has and say that the type is falling apart and should all be pulled from service. (I know they didn't go that far, but you know what I mean)
No, the practically said it (or at least strongly implied.) Things to ponder, eh?
To answer this question, you must look at where the world's militarys stand as of now. I would say about 600 F-22s are sufficient for today's needs. Now, if China/Russia/N. Korea/etc start to mass produce combat jets (thousands), then of course 600 would not be enough.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
Venus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1410 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8899 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 7): It wasn't all that lucky. One of the pilots I flew with operated F117s over Bosnia during that time. Entry and exit corridors were very limited not only in airspace but time as well. After a few runs through those corridors the radar operators learned what to look for and were able to lock in on it.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8899 times:
Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15): I would say about 600 F-22s are sufficient for today's needs.
That number sounds about right. We don't want to limit ourselves to being just a little better. We don't want to win when we can dominate. The government shouldn't accept a 12:1 kill ratio when 20:1 is possible. With the F-22, the USAF can control any piece of airspace it wants. It really bugs me to see the liberal media always dumping on the armed forces while applauding the government handing out bailouts to anyone who wants one.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Joperrin89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 24 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 8767 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17): That number sounds about right. We don't want to limit ourselves to being just a little better. We don't want to win when we can dominate. The government shouldn't accept a 12:1 kill ratio when 20:1 is possible. With the F-22, the USAF can control any piece of airspace it wants
Very true. Training is the thing that has kept US fighters superior to that of other nations for the last 60 years. As good as the F-22 is, well trained pilots is the only thing that is going to give the USAF a 20:1 kill ratio. Well... and the fact that you can barely see the F-22 on a radar screen
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2073 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8711 times:
I think we need the F-22. Yes it is expensive and that concerns me but there are a few things to think about here... no war has been won in the last 50+ years without having air superiority. If there is one thing the U.S. armed services is good at, its is air supremacy. Now I do believe that the F-15s and F-16 would do extremely well against most countries we are likely to have a problem with, but they are old and there is at least parity out there if not outright superior planes in other countries hands. Imo we need THE best fighter, period.
I realize the F-22 would make more sense during the cold war where we were faced with the prospect of large numbers of well trained fighter pilots/bombers and epic aerial battles would happen ala WWII/Korea. But even though we are in guerilla warfare in 3rd world countries right now we cannot NOT have the best fighter. It took almost 20 years for the F-22 to hit the line from getting the green light. Things in the world change fast and if we didn't have the 22 and things change in a few years and we did need it... well then it's too late.
Better to have the F-22 and not need it, then the other way around.
Vega9000 From Portugal, joined Aug 2006, 180 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8648 times:
I'm no expert, but from what I'm reading in several politics blogs, and since Robert Gates opposes the program, I think the F-22 is probably dead. Most likely replaced by the F-35.
But in order to kill such a program, you have to predispose the public against it, so I think this is probably the first wave of a "anti F-22" media blitz.
Anyway, if you haven't read it already, here's an excellent article about it in this month's Atlantic:
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11742 posts, RR: 51 Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8636 times:
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 3): CNN has gone right downhill ever since Turner sold it.
Was CNN ever on top of the hill? They have never gotten any news story right. Thanks to when Ted Turner did own it.
BEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 839 posts, RR: 12 Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8620 times:
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 2): seem to recall a F-117 got shot down over Bosnia
Joperrin89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 24 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8556 times:
Quoting Vega9000 (Reply 20): But in order to kill such a program, you have to predispose the public against it
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the Pentagon does not take public opinion about a particular aircraft into account when they decide weather or not to cancel it. Look how popular the Comanche helicopter was, it was in TV shows, books, i think i even saw a really cheesy made-for-TV movie that had one, and the Comanche program is long gone. Same with the SR-71 Blackbird, very popular in the public eye, now its long gone.
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 19): Now I do believe that the F-15s and F-16 would do extremely well against most countries
I agree. The F-15 is still a lethal air supremacy fighter despite its age. Prediction- If the Pentagon does decide to cancel the F-22 program, in 20 years when China has its first stealth fighter, they are gonna be wishing they had the F-22.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8524 times:
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 19): Now I do believe that the F-15s and F-16 would do extremely well against most countries we are likely to have a problem with, but they are old and there is at least parity out there if not outright superior planes in other countries hands.
We would fare just fine, but mostly because of having superior pilots. I believe we should give our pilots the best equipment possible. Why would we play Jalen Rose when we could play Michael Jordan? There is no reason to leave the world's finest fighter on the drawing board when the goverment is passing out money to everyone else.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 Bennett123: Some people seem to think that giving a blank cheque to the DoD is actually a good idea. You do have to balance the various things that money can be s
26 SAS A340: I have followed this from backstage for a while,could it be right to assume that god news for the F-22 (more ordered) are bad news for the F-35(less o
27 MCIGuy: Only in the short term. They want to do a smaller initial F-35 buy over the next few years in order to afford more Raptors. We'd still get the same n
28 BMI727: Well, the government just passed out $800,000,000,000 and couldn't give more than 4.5 billion to DoD. It is ridiculous that agriculture, rural aid, a
29 HaveBlue: Bad link, says this when I click on it... Bad Image Reference The Image ID specified in the URL does not exist. It was probably deleted, but verify t
30 Cloudy: The F22 can do by itself all sorts of things that other aircraft need extensive support to do. It can also patrol a larger area and attack at shorter
31 Nomadd22: Most stories refer to the 117 over Serbia being downed by an SA-3 with an old low freq radar because there was a known SA-3 battery in the area. But a
32 BMI727: I've heard that low freq. radars can sometimes catch a glimps of the F-117. Also, it was wet and that reduces stealth a bit too. The biggest factor w
33 BEG2IAH: Sorry, I messed up the link: http://www.pbase.com/vmarinkovic/image/33081901
34 BubbaJin: My father tried to argue with me about the F-22 being a waste of money. He stated that the USAF hasn't even used the F-22 in Iraq or Afganistan so its
35 Dragon6172: People can "see" that bailout money at work so they are more likely to support and applaud those government actions. Some people are blind to what th
36 JoeCanuck: One can argue not being attacked is proof that the military is working. Having a weapon as capable as the F-22 in the arsenal might make others think
38 Flighty: We are already teetering on that edge. Things have gotten as expensive as they can possibly get. Any more expansive, and they are simply unbuyable, u
39 Keesje: A way to buy time and keep the production lines open would be to sell them to the Japanese. Not selling them to the Japanese also sends a strong signa
40 CURLYHEADBOY: Think the US could give a couple of squadrons as a gift, because Japan doesn't look in the shape of someone who can afford a 137 million dollar fight
41 BMI727: Japan has a very strong military and has pretty much the best of everything. They are one of the few countries that had the money to purchase F-15s.
42 CURLYHEADBOY: Perfectly ok to sell the F-22 to the most reliable allies, nothing wrong with that. Problem is I don't think both Japan and the UK have the money to
44 BMI727: Japan might. The UK certainly doesn't have cash for that and besides, they would have to fight through a blockade of political opposition. Absolutely
45 Olle: USA has been running a trade deficit against for example Japan during many years... They should more afford it compared to US. The 5-7 % of GDP trade
46 AGM100: I would support the slow down in production for a few basic reasons. 1. More HELO lift for our troops on the ground . CH-46G , UH-60 , CH-53. ? Merlin
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