Quote: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Iraq wants to buy an initial squadron of Lockheed Martin Corp F-16 fighter aircraft this year to help guard against perceived threats from Iran and Syria after U.S. forces leave, the head of the Iraqi Air Force told Reuters Tuesday.
Lt. Gen. Anwar Ahmed said he hoped to sign a contract for 18 advanced F-16s as the centerpiece of billions of dollars Iraq is expected to spend on arms in coming years.
"This is very important to us," he said in a telephone interview while visiting Washington. "It is a priority."
Provided funds are made available by Iraq's Parliament, he said his goal was to acquire up to 96 F-16s through 2020. He cited the F-16C/D Block 50/52 models now being produced for Poland, Israel, Greece and Pakistan.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3163 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5545 times:
From Bird Dogs to Falcons --- they're rather fast. I guess it will be okay as long as no other Saddam comes along and brandishes those against the US and its allies.....
The 18 airframes would be a logical follow-up to the KAI T-50 advanced trainers they are eyeing, and would stand up almost a full transition squadron, gradually building up as their pilots hone their skills and gain more proficiency. However, it might be prudent to sell them the lead-in fighter/light combat aircraft version first, until it is well-established where their allegiances truly lie.....
Whichever way, Lockheed Martin stands to gain a lot, and as this seems to be a sole-source procurement, the Fighting Falcon may well be on the way of another decade of production. And maybe LM won't get in the way of their equipment selection like in South Korea, so NG's SABR or Raytheon's RACR may be specified.....
Quote: "Korea’s F/A-50 was recently barred from using the Vixen 500E, under an agreement with co-developer Lockheed Martin that did not allow the F/A-50’s capabilities to surpass the ROKAF’s F-16s."
Spacepope From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Dec 1999, 1936 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (7 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5175 times:
Let them fly to Iran. We've converted the last F-4E to a drone, and we're down to RF-4Cs before we get to starting the QF-16A/B conversions. We'll have plenty of practice by then.
Lumberton From United States, joined Jul 2005, 4094 posts, RR: 24 Reply 5, posted (7 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5066 times:
Not A/B's.
Quote: Provided funds are made available by Iraq's Parliament, he said his goal was to acquire up to 96 F-16s through 2020. He cited the F-16C/D Block 50/52 models now being produced for Poland, Israel, Greece and Pakistan.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 412 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (7 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4894 times:
Even if relations went deep south with Iraq in the future... 90 F-16C/Ds is not going to do much for them in a fire fight. As discussed in the Iran SU-30MKI order thread, 90 vipers in anyones hands are not a particular threat to the US. Israel might be a bit concerned, but considering the caliber of professionalism and skill coming out of the Iraqi military... they would have more to fear from the ground than mixing it up in the air.
The F-16 is not really cutting edge anymore... if anything it is becoming a entry level aircraft, everyone else who can afford it is moving on to the F-35, and if they can manage, the F-22.
Lumberton From United States, joined Jul 2005, 4094 posts, RR: 24 Reply 7, posted (7 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4676 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 6): The F-16 is not really cutting edge anymore... if anything it is becoming a entry level aircraft, everyone else who can afford it is moving on to the F-35, and if they can manage, the F-22.
It is still capable of putting ordnance on target, and will be for the foreseeable future.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Fridgmus From Iraq, joined Oct 2006, 655 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (7 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4652 times:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2): Why? So they can fly them over to Iran, in the next war?
I'm not a pilot and I mean no offense or disrespect to the Iraqi Air Force or their pilot candidates, but do they have enough competent personnel to fly these high performance aircraft?
After watching a few IAF C-130 landings at Kirkuk AB and talking with some of the flight instructors there, I dunno.
Maybe others know more?
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
Jetjack74 From United States, joined Jul 2003, 6586 posts, RR: 55 Reply 10, posted (7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4361 times:
Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 8): I'm not a pilot and I mean no offense or disrespect to the Iraqi Air Force or their pilot candidates, but do they have enough competent personnel to fly these high performance aircraft?
Sure, I think they have probably many intellectually capable individuals. I'm sure there are some Iraqis around the world who might consider returning Iraq to serve in the armed forces there. There are millions of Iraqi's who are attending higher education in Europe and here in the US. Iraq someday could become the next India
Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 8): After watching a few IAF C-130 landings at Kirkuk AB and talking with some of the flight instructors there, I dunno.
Maybe others know more?
I think you could see very soon the USAF training IAF pilot candidates here pretty soon, if they aren't already training them in some sort of capacity like we did with the Saudis and Pakistanis.
"Shut your pie hole and listen to me when I say that I am finished with the checking of the bags conversation."
Once the security situation drastically improves, we leave and the Tribal Militias (yes they are very tribal) are under control, then I would hope all those educated Iraqi's who are overseas would come home to serve in leadership/technical capacities (ex: military officers) and rebuild their country. Time will tell.
I know we train other Nationalities, so why not the Iraqi's? It most certainly would be a better and safer training environment. They would really learn how to "turn & burn" in a high performance jet! Makes sense. And it might also encourage Iraqi expats to come home and serve. I would imagine being a US-trained pilot looks pretty good on a CV!
F
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 412 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4127 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7): It is still capable of putting ordnance on target, and will be for the foreseeable future.
So can F-4s, my point being that the F-16 has been dissected by Russia, so any secrets it still contained are not so secret anymore. So if they fly them to Iran, Iran will get airframes, not new secret technology.
Trex8 From United States, joined Nov 2002, 2908 posts, RR: 18 Reply 15, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3777 times:
Maybe they should get their electrical grid working before spending a billion $ on fighters. I suspect they need a bunch more choppers and transports too before supersonic fighters, or even MRAPs and sundry less sexy equipment. I would think a bunch of A10s or similar (bring back the Skyraider!) will be far better suited for their near term CAS needs. That way the Shiites will be able to bomb and strafe the Sunni better in their remaining houses when the real civil war starts up!
As long as there is some US military presence in Iraq I doubt the Iraqis need to worry about Iranian planes coming to bomb them and needing F16s to protect themselves. Maybe to protect against Turkish planes, but aren't they supposed to be a NATO ally? Great, a war with F16s on each side, how wonderful!
Wvsuperhornet From United States, joined Aug 2007, 380 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3730 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 13): So can F-4s, my point being that the F-16 has been dissected by Russia, so any secrets it still contained are not so secret anymore. So if they fly them to Iran, Iran will get airframes, not new secret technology.
really? the Block 52 is a very advanced version of the F-16 I doubt the Russians have dissected all of the technology on them.
Quoting KingAirTA (Reply 9): Why should we care about Iraqi pilot competency? It's Iraqs money. Let em spend it. I say go for it. Keeps US jobs.
Because a well trained and equiped Iraqi airforce could be a good ally to the US and its on the Iranian boarder. Thats 2 reasons.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3163 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3668 times:
Quoting Trex8 (Reply 15): I would think a bunch of A10s or similar (bring back the Skyraider!) will be far better suited for their near term CAS needs.
Quoting Cloudy (Reply 17): My guess is that the main purpose of these birds is to deter future insurgencies.
In connection with the above, Iraq had already selected their COIN aircraft.....
Quote: "Dec 10/08: The US DSCA announces [PDF] Iraq’s formal request to buy 36 AT-6B light attack aircraft. Iraq would become the first customer for this aircraft if a contract is concluded.
Iraq also wants 6 spare PT-6 engines, 10 spare ALE-47 Counter-Measure Dispensing Systems and/or 10 spare AAR-60 Missile Launch Detection Systems, global positioning systems with CMA-4124 GNSSA card, plus tanker support, ferry services, personnel training and training equipment, spare and repair parts, maintenance, support equipment, and other forms of support. The estimated cost is $520 million, which will be finalized once a contract is signed."
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 412 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3560 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 16): really? the Block 52 is a very advanced version of the F-16 I doubt the Russians have dissected all of the technology on them.
While true... it still isn't the best on the market. Try suggesting Iraq get F-35s... even allies like Israel would get watered down versions of the F-35 (if they get them). Any F-16 is still inferior to a watered down F-35, so a block 52 F-16 is still 2 steps down from the best. Also, I am pretty sure Russia can match (or come close to) a block 52s hardware, so they might like to have a peek, but they wouldn't gain any real new capacity.
Wvsuperhornet From United States, joined Aug 2007, 380 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3294 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 20): While true... it still isn't the best on the market. Try suggesting Iraq get F-35s... even allies like Israel would get watered down versions of the F-35 (if they get them). Any F-16 is still inferior to a watered down F-35, so a block 52 F-16 is still 2 steps down from the best. Also, I am pretty sure Russia can match (or come close to) a block 52s hardware, so they might like to have a peek, but they wouldn't gain any real new capacity.
I am not try to beat a dead horse here, but I was never suggesting that the F-16 block 52 is the best on the market, just that there arent many things that are. A block 52 F-16 in the hands of a US trained Iraqi pilot will be more than a handfull for any of their close neighbors. As far as Israel getting watered down F-35's wont happen Israel has always gotten or at least offered top US equipment the Iraqis wont get it because the US has a long standing agreement with Israel that we would maintain them as the sole military power (so to speak) in the middle east, Iraq will get watered down everything compared to Israel. Actaully Israel's F-16's are more advanced or equal to anything the US has in its inventory along with the F-15I's. So I dont expect the F-35's to be any different.
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 412 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3255 times:
Israel is not quite the buddy they were in past decades. IIRC, they have let slip a few technologies to China that the probably shouldn't have... that probably annoyed a few people over at the Pentagon. Not to mention the Lavi / J-10 thing. I know everyone denies it, but the J-10 is a close copy of the Lavi (which was paid for by the US). China dosent have a original bone in their collective bodies... there is no way they designed a gen 4.5 fighter on their own.
TexL1649 From United States, joined Aug 2007, 228 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3246 times:
Iraq doesn't need the best of the best for air dominance. All they have to worry about are (a) insurgents and (b) Iran. The AT-6B's with sidewinders might work vs. Iran.
Wvsuperhornet From United States, joined Aug 2007, 380 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3198 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 22): Israel is not quite the buddy they were in past decades. IIRC, they have let slip a few technologies to China that the probably shouldn't have... that probably annoyed a few people over at the Pentagon. Not to mention the Lavi / J-10 thing. I know everyone denies it, but the J-10 is a close copy of the Lavi (which was paid for by the US). China dosent have a original bone in their collective bodies... there is no way they designed a gen 4.5 fighter on their own.
Wont argue that your right the J-10 is a Lavi/F-16 (from pakistan) copy. But that has never stopped our congress from approving it before. I never said I was in favor of it just with the lobbying power Israel has in our congress they will receive the top of the line F-35 wether we like it or not.
Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 23): Iraq doesn't need the best of the best for air dominance. All they have to worry about are (a) insurgents and (b) Iran. The AT-6B's with sidewinders might work vs. Iran.
And Syria, but your right they dont need top of the line for either country, some used F-16's would suite them well.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3163 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3179 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 24): Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 23):
Iraq doesn't need the best of the best for air dominance. All they have to worry about are (a) insurgents and (b) Iran. The AT-6B's with sidewinders might work vs. Iran.
And Syria, but your right they dont need top of the line for either country, some used F-16's would suite them well.
Don't forget the MiG-29M2s and MiG-31s they were "supposed" to be getting.....
Quote: "In June 2007, Russian newspapers claimed that Russia had begun delivering 5 MiG-31E Foxhound aircraft to Syria, under a deal that was reportedly negotiated in autumn 2006. The Russian newspaper Kommersant added that:
'...a lot of MiG-29M/M2 jets was sold to Syria as well. They are being sold abroad for the first time and are similar in their technical specifications to the MiG-35 model Russia is now offering India. The total value of the contract for the MiG-31 and MiG-29M/M2 aircraft is estimated at $1 billion.'"
27 TexL1649: My statement was intended as a bit of hyperbole but in all seriousness (a) the prospect of Syrian intrusion into Iraqi airspace is pretty silly (and t
28 Gsosbee: Not likely to receive an export license in anyones' lifetime.
29 Oroka: Now that they want to end the line at 189 airframes... I think they may become more lenient about exporting the F-22. Maybe just to a select few clos
30 Acheron: And you know this because of two news articles, about accident a few years apart?. As far as I know, the USAF has had far more accidents in the time
31 DEVILFISH: If you say so - it seemed pretty serious. The scenario doesn't involve Syria only..... Quote: "The paper added that the deal is being financed by Ira
32 TexL1649: Iranian exports have been shriveling due to the collapse of production capacity. They've rationed consumption for years, and actually import substanti
33 DEVILFISH: I'm not in any way qualified to make an informed assessment of their talents and skills, but from the helo thread, it seems they and the Iraqis are qu
34 ThePointblank: I would not dismiss the Iranians so lightly. The last time the Iraqi's went up against the Iranians, the Iraqi's got a bloody nose against a supposed
35 Bennett123: UH60FtRucker So what is wrong with Iraqi pilots?
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