Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 24 Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 22483 times:
The want the initial squadron of 18 this year, with up to 90 by 2020.
Quote: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Iraq wants to buy an initial squadron of Lockheed Martin Corp F-16 fighter aircraft this year to help guard against perceived threats from Iran and Syria after U.S. forces leave, the head of the Iraqi Air Force told Reuters Tuesday.
Lt. Gen. Anwar Ahmed said he hoped to sign a contract for 18 advanced F-16s as the centerpiece of billions of dollars Iraq is expected to spend on arms in coming years.
"This is very important to us," he said in a telephone interview while visiting Washington. "It is a priority."
Provided funds are made available by Iraq's Parliament, he said his goal was to acquire up to 96 F-16s through 2020. He cited the F-16C/D Block 50/52 models now being produced for Poland, Israel, Greece and Pakistan.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3974 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 22438 times:
From Bird Dogs to Falcons --- they're rather fast. I guess it will be okay as long as no other Saddam comes along and brandishes those against the US and its allies.....
The 18 airframes would be a logical follow-up to the KAI T-50 advanced trainers they are eyeing, and would stand up almost a full transition squadron, gradually building up as their pilots hone their skills and gain more proficiency. However, it might be prudent to sell them the lead-in fighter/light combat aircraft version first, until it is well-established where their allegiances truly lie.....
Whichever way, Lockheed Martin stands to gain a lot, and as this seems to be a sole-source procurement, the Fighting Falcon may well be on the way of another decade of production. And maybe LM won't get in the way of their equipment selection like in South Korea, so NG's SABR or Raytheon's RACR may be specified.....
Quote: "Korea’s F/A-50 was recently barred from using the Vixen 500E, under an agreement with co-developer Lockheed Martin that did not allow the F/A-50’s capabilities to surpass the ROKAF’s F-16s."
Spacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2457 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 22068 times:
Let them fly to Iran. We've converted the last F-4E to a drone, and we're down to RF-4Cs before we get to starting the QF-16A/B conversions. We'll have plenty of practice by then.
Venus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1366 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21956 times:
Are they asking for new builds or A/B's from AMARC? The plane is capable but what type of avionics,radar, weopens software do you load them up with.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 24 Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21944 times:
Not A/B's.
Quote: Provided funds are made available by Iraq's Parliament, he said his goal was to acquire up to 96 F-16s through 2020. He cited the F-16C/D Block 50/52 models now being produced for Poland, Israel, Greece and Pakistan.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 21780 times:
Even if relations went deep south with Iraq in the future... 90 F-16C/Ds is not going to do much for them in a fire fight. As discussed in the Iran SU-30MKI order thread, 90 vipers in anyones hands are not a particular threat to the US. Israel might be a bit concerned, but considering the caliber of professionalism and skill coming out of the Iraqi military... they would have more to fear from the ground than mixing it up in the air.
The F-16 is not really cutting edge anymore... if anything it is becoming a entry level aircraft, everyone else who can afford it is moving on to the F-35, and if they can manage, the F-22.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 24 Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 21555 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 6): The F-16 is not really cutting edge anymore... if anything it is becoming a entry level aircraft, everyone else who can afford it is moving on to the F-35, and if they can manage, the F-22.
It is still capable of putting ordnance on target, and will be for the foreseeable future.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Fridgmus From Kuwait, joined Oct 2006, 1206 posts, RR: 9 Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 21540 times:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2): Why? So they can fly them over to Iran, in the next war?
I'm not a pilot and I mean no offense or disrespect to the Iraqi Air Force or their pilot candidates, but do they have enough competent personnel to fly these high performance aircraft?
After watching a few IAF C-130 landings at Kirkuk AB and talking with some of the flight instructors there, I dunno.
Maybe others know more?
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
KingAirTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21445 times:
Why should we care about Iraqi pilot competency? It's Iraqs money. Let em spend it. I say go for it. Keeps US jobs.
Jetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7137 posts, RR: 54 Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 21248 times:
Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 8): I'm not a pilot and I mean no offense or disrespect to the Iraqi Air Force or their pilot candidates, but do they have enough competent personnel to fly these high performance aircraft?
Sure, I think they have probably many intellectually capable individuals. I'm sure there are some Iraqis around the world who might consider returning Iraq to serve in the armed forces there. There are millions of Iraqi's who are attending higher education in Europe and here in the US. Iraq someday could become the next India
Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 8): After watching a few IAF C-130 landings at Kirkuk AB and talking with some of the flight instructors there, I dunno.
Maybe others know more?
I think you could see very soon the USAF training IAF pilot candidates here pretty soon, if they aren't already training them in some sort of capacity like we did with the Saudis and Pakistanis.
Once the security situation drastically improves, we leave and the Tribal Militias (yes they are very tribal) are under control, then I would hope all those educated Iraqi's who are overseas would come home to serve in leadership/technical capacities (ex: military officers) and rebuild their country. Time will tell.
I know we train other Nationalities, so why not the Iraqi's? It most certainly would be a better and safer training environment. They would really learn how to "turn & burn" in a high performance jet! Makes sense. And it might also encourage Iraqi expats to come home and serve. I would imagine being a US-trained pilot looks pretty good on a CV!
F
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 21138 times:
We are training them.
The US has and currently does send pilots over as their job is to train up pilots and units in the operation of various airframes.
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 21011 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7): It is still capable of putting ordnance on target, and will be for the foreseeable future.
So can F-4s, my point being that the F-16 has been dissected by Russia, so any secrets it still contained are not so secret anymore. So if they fly them to Iran, Iran will get airframes, not new secret technology.
Trex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 3647 posts, RR: 15 Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 20656 times:
Maybe they should get their electrical grid working before spending a billion $ on fighters. I suspect they need a bunch more choppers and transports too before supersonic fighters, or even MRAPs and sundry less sexy equipment. I would think a bunch of A10s or similar (bring back the Skyraider!) will be far better suited for their near term CAS needs. That way the Shiites will be able to bomb and strafe the Sunni better in their remaining houses when the real civil war starts up!
As long as there is some US military presence in Iraq I doubt the Iraqis need to worry about Iranian planes coming to bomb them and needing F16s to protect themselves. Maybe to protect against Turkish planes, but aren't they supposed to be a NATO ally? Great, a war with F16s on each side, how wonderful!
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20608 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 13): So can F-4s, my point being that the F-16 has been dissected by Russia, so any secrets it still contained are not so secret anymore. So if they fly them to Iran, Iran will get airframes, not new secret technology.
really? the Block 52 is a very advanced version of the F-16 I doubt the Russians have dissected all of the technology on them.
Quoting KingAirTA (Reply 9): Why should we care about Iraqi pilot competency? It's Iraqs money. Let em spend it. I say go for it. Keeps US jobs.
Because a well trained and equiped Iraqi airforce could be a good ally to the US and its on the Iranian boarder. Thats 2 reasons.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3974 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 20542 times:
Quoting Trex8 (Reply 15): I would think a bunch of A10s or similar (bring back the Skyraider!) will be far better suited for their near term CAS needs.
Quoting Cloudy (Reply 17): My guess is that the main purpose of these birds is to deter future insurgencies.
In connection with the above, Iraq had already selected their COIN aircraft.....
Quote: "Dec 10/08: The US DSCA announces [PDF] Iraq’s formal request to buy 36 AT-6B light attack aircraft. Iraq would become the first customer for this aircraft if a contract is concluded.
Iraq also wants 6 spare PT-6 engines, 10 spare ALE-47 Counter-Measure Dispensing Systems and/or 10 spare AAR-60 Missile Launch Detection Systems, global positioning systems with CMA-4124 GNSSA card, plus tanker support, ferry services, personnel training and training equipment, spare and repair parts, maintenance, support equipment, and other forms of support. The estimated cost is $520 million, which will be finalized once a contract is signed."
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20436 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 16): really? the Block 52 is a very advanced version of the F-16 I doubt the Russians have dissected all of the technology on them.
While true... it still isn't the best on the market. Try suggesting Iraq get F-35s... even allies like Israel would get watered down versions of the F-35 (if they get them). Any F-16 is still inferior to a watered down F-35, so a block 52 F-16 is still 2 steps down from the best. Also, I am pretty sure Russia can match (or come close to) a block 52s hardware, so they might like to have a peek, but they wouldn't gain any real new capacity.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20170 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 20): While true... it still isn't the best on the market. Try suggesting Iraq get F-35s... even allies like Israel would get watered down versions of the F-35 (if they get them). Any F-16 is still inferior to a watered down F-35, so a block 52 F-16 is still 2 steps down from the best. Also, I am pretty sure Russia can match (or come close to) a block 52s hardware, so they might like to have a peek, but they wouldn't gain any real new capacity.
I am not try to beat a dead horse here, but I was never suggesting that the F-16 block 52 is the best on the market, just that there arent many things that are. A block 52 F-16 in the hands of a US trained Iraqi pilot will be more than a handfull for any of their close neighbors. As far as Israel getting watered down F-35's wont happen Israel has always gotten or at least offered top US equipment the Iraqis wont get it because the US has a long standing agreement with Israel that we would maintain them as the sole military power (so to speak) in the middle east, Iraq will get watered down everything compared to Israel. Actaully Israel's F-16's are more advanced or equal to anything the US has in its inventory along with the F-15I's. So I dont expect the F-35's to be any different.
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 20129 times:
Israel is not quite the buddy they were in past decades. IIRC, they have let slip a few technologies to China that the probably shouldn't have... that probably annoyed a few people over at the Pentagon. Not to mention the Lavi / J-10 thing. I know everyone denies it, but the J-10 is a close copy of the Lavi (which was paid for by the US). China dosent have a original bone in their collective bodies... there is no way they designed a gen 4.5 fighter on their own.
TexL1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 229 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 20122 times:
Iraq doesn't need the best of the best for air dominance. All they have to worry about are (a) insurgents and (b) Iran. The AT-6B's with sidewinders might work vs. Iran.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 20073 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 22): Israel is not quite the buddy they were in past decades. IIRC, they have let slip a few technologies to China that the probably shouldn't have... that probably annoyed a few people over at the Pentagon. Not to mention the Lavi / J-10 thing. I know everyone denies it, but the J-10 is a close copy of the Lavi (which was paid for by the US). China dosent have a original bone in their collective bodies... there is no way they designed a gen 4.5 fighter on their own.
Wont argue that your right the J-10 is a Lavi/F-16 (from pakistan) copy. But that has never stopped our congress from approving it before. I never said I was in favor of it just with the lobbying power Israel has in our congress they will receive the top of the line F-35 wether we like it or not.
Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 23): Iraq doesn't need the best of the best for air dominance. All they have to worry about are (a) insurgents and (b) Iran. The AT-6B's with sidewinders might work vs. Iran.
And Syria, but your right they dont need top of the line for either country, some used F-16's would suite them well.
27 TexL1649: My statement was intended as a bit of hyperbole but in all seriousness (a) the prospect of Syrian intrusion into Iraqi airspace is pretty silly (and t
28 Gsosbee: Not likely to receive an export license in anyones' lifetime.
29 Oroka: Now that they want to end the line at 189 airframes... I think they may become more lenient about exporting the F-22. Maybe just to a select few clos
30 Acheron: And you know this because of two news articles, about accident a few years apart?. As far as I know, the USAF has had far more accidents in the time
31 DEVILFISH: If you say so - it seemed pretty serious. The scenario doesn't involve Syria only..... Quote: "The paper added that the deal is being financed by Ira
32 TexL1649: Iranian exports have been shriveling due to the collapse of production capacity. They've rationed consumption for years, and actually import substanti
33 DEVILFISH: I'm not in any way qualified to make an informed assessment of their talents and skills, but from the helo thread, it seems they and the Iraqis are qu
34 ThePointblank: I would not dismiss the Iranians so lightly. The last time the Iraqi's went up against the Iranians, the Iraqi's got a bloody nose against a supposed
35 Bennett123: UH60FtRucker So what is wrong with Iraqi pilots?
36 DEVILFISH: An update as the withdrawal date looms..... http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...ges/AIR_F-16Ds_Greece_Break_lg.jpg Quote: "Aug 2/10: The Government
37 DEVILFISH: And now, the latest on the hardware..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...eks-F-16-Fighters-05057/#more-5057 Quote: "The US DSCA announces [PDF]
38 ebj1248650: Too much airplane too soon! When I first read this thread, the first thought that came to mind was what the German Luftwaffe experienced when it made
39 trex8: The issue with the Germans probably had more to do with their training in the clear skies of New Mexico and Arizona and then having to fly operationa
40 LegRoomPlease: BTW just a thought. What exactly is in place to stop a disgruntled Iraqi pilot from taking his, for Iran technically cutting edge, jet and defecting?
41 trex8: Well if they only hire sunni pilots you wouldn't need to worry about any defections to iran!
42 Shmertspionem: Given the current sanctions I think its safe to say Iran wont get a gattling gun - leave alone fighters from anyone any-time soon. Even prior to this
43 LegRoomPlease: My apologies for that on UH60. Just noticed.
44 UH60FtRucker: Where did I say anything about compromising the technology? I said they'll fly them over to Iran. ~20 F-16 Block 50s to Iran would be a major additio
45 EagleBoy: Isn't that convenient. And there was me thinking they might go for Mig-29/SU-27 as they historically have experience with these ex-Soviet aircraft...
46 Lumberton: Iraq offered new F-16s with older missiles
47 Shmertspionem: I think there's a lot more to fit the pattern 1) Most of the superbly trained Shah Era pilots were purged from the AF after the revolution - since Af
48 AirRyan: Seriously offered them Sparrow missiles? What a joke, go buy something from France or Russia, Iraq. But then again, so to is it a joke to sell high te
49 wvsuperhornet: Thats a bold statement about the F-16 not being cutting edge anymore. The block 52's and higher are very advanced aircraft.
50 EagleBoy: Because the Bush/Cheney administration sold the war to the USA on the basis that Iraqi oil revenues would pay for it. They grossly underestimated the
51 Burkhard: PLUS: The profit from Iraqi oil imports don't flow back to the US tax payer, but to the share holders of Exxon, Shell, Chevron, BP and others. Billio
52 Flighty: With all due respect, you can't have electricity if you don't have security. Iraq is vulnerable. Obviously policing their large territory from the ai
53 trex8: The security issues Iraq has which impacts their electrical grid will not be helped by supersonic fighters!!
54 kanban: my concern is not what a/c they buy but who's flying them. it seems as good as the pilots may be, Shia pilots may just decide that today's live fire
55 trex8: Sparrows aren't quite as bad or old fashioned as some think, they did fine in Desert Storm and even in recent years the Taiwanese training squadron a
56 AirRyan: Call George S. Patton but I think it should just be implied that to the victors go the spoils of war - we at least should have sucked out a trillion
57 Bennett123: AirRyan That sounds like a mighty powerful incentive for going to war
58 trex8: Tell that to the F16 and F18 drivers with amraams who got smoked by the Gamblers F16s with sparrows at Luke
59 DEVILFISH: Compromised or not, would be adversaries of those aircraft's receivers will still need to invest to defeat them - and it will cost dearly. Though I h
60 EagleBoy: Iraqi F-16s flying overhead wouldn't stop the insurgents (of whatever group) planting roadside bombs are shooting at the electricity workers.
61 Shmertspionem: perhaps - but given the Chinese genius for low cost high quality rip-off's I think I'll err on the side of caution. they also do low cost low quality
64 DEVILFISH: Update: Global Security reports that a Baghdad newspaper quoted an Iraqi defense ministry official who said that the $13B arms deal with the US is alr
65 DEVILFISH: Like this..... http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?c=AIR&s=TOP&i=5558066 Quote: "BAGHDAD - France has proposed to sell 18 Mirage fighters to
66 DEVILFISH: More on the above - with a surprise "Johnny come lately"..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...eks-F-16-Fighters-05057/#more-5057 Quote: "Jan 27
67 AirRyan: Why go for the status quo? Iraq's got plenty of oil money, (still think they ought to be paying back the US) so why buy the same old aircraft types th
68 KC135TopBoom: Let me get this straight. France is proposing to sell the F-1s to Iraq that Iraq already bought but were impounded? The difference is now they are ge
69 DEVILFISH: It does appear that they are being bled twice. . Unfortunately, that might also cut out future support from Dassault that the Iraqis might require -
70 DEVILFISH: Looks like neither is going to happen anymore. They say the money would be used for something more urgent..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/..
71 tak: Looks like they are moving ahead with the F-16 purchase, but limited amounts at first (only 18). Acording to the article the new plan is for 36 aircra
72 Devilfish: It seems they might soon have the jets to hone their skills on..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Iraq-Seeks-F-16-Fighters-05057/ Quote: "Nov 1
73 Devilfish: A second batch of 18 Vipers may be in the offing..... . http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ssible-f-16-follow-on-deal-365934/ Quote: "Iraq could
74 chrisco1204: The F-16 still has quite a few tricks up its sleeves. Just ask the UAE why they like the Block 60 variants so much.
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