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Pentagon: Less V-22 And More Helos?  
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6710 times:

Are some finally coming around to the realization that a mixed buy of say CH-71's and MV-22's is a better investment of taxpayer monies than throwing all your eggs in one tilt-rotor basket? Sure would help ease the pain for LM and the Owego plant with the cancellation of the VH-71.

Quote:
But Gates let it be known recently he also plans to challenge the Marines to better justify some of their costly future weapons buying plans.

A number of defense analysts and insiders, including some former think tank officials who have received appointments in the new administration, have written studies suggesting the Marines need a mix of transport helicopters and V-22s. Modern helicopters could be bought for $20 million or less, compared to the roughly $80 million initial price tag of the V-22.

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1361445.html

http://64.34.169.161/ifolio_files/file_gallery/Screenshot_Gallery/Development_Screenshots/chUSMC1.jpg



[Edited 2009-05-06 14:12:52]

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSASD209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6682 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Are some finally coming around to the realization that a mixed buy of say CH-71's and MV-22's is a better investment of taxpayer monies than throwing all your eggs in one tilt-rotor basket?

The article made no mention at all of any "CH-71"....is that your idea or is there a source on that someplace to match the really big picture you also posted?


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6680 times:



Quoting SASD209 (Reply 1):

The article made no mention at all of any "CH-71"....is that your idea or is there a source on that someplace to match the really big picture you also posted?

Well what other traditional helos would they be talking about? UH-1Y's are too small and the CH-53K's will be too large, the Osprey is still medium lift in the Air Wing and since the Navy/Marines are already familiar with the H-71 via the HMX endeavors, wouldn't that be the logical choice to supplement the Marine medium helo requirement?


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4318 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6682 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Are some finally coming around to the realization that a mixed buy of say CH-71's and MV-22's is a better investment of taxpayer monies than throwing all your eggs in one tilt-rotor basket?

Why is a mixed buy better than a single-type buy? Isn't the MV-22 a better platform all the way around than a rotary wing aircraft for the Marines' combat ops? With regards to cost, even the quote you provide says, "...$80 million initial price tag of the V-22." That hefty price tag is an initial investment. The unit cost will come down with additional purchases.

I'm not one of those who believes in buying something just because it is ultra-modern and the best available; however, the V-22 is just far and away beyond anything a helicopter could ever be or do. I think it is the one military program that historians will look back upon it as a true milestone in combat arms.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineSASD209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6675 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
Well what other traditional helos would they be talking about? UH-1Y's are too small and the CH-53K's will be too large, the Osprey is still medium lift in the Air Wing and since the Navy/Marines are already familiar with the H-71 via the HMX endeavors, wouldn't that be the logical choice to supplement the Marine medium helo requirement?

Oh, how about the AW139, or the S-92, or even the H-60, among others that I'm surely forgetting? If you have a choice, that's fine, but your original post is misleading along with the uncredited picture below the newspaper link.


User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6657 times:



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
I'm not one of those who believes in buying something just because it is ultra-modern and the best available; however, the V-22 is just far and away beyond anything a helicopter could ever be or do. I think it is the one military program that historians will look back upon it as a true milestone in combat arms.

For as long as the V-22 has taken to finally get to a point where it's actually hauling Marines around, I'd bet it's already in the history books!!! It'll be in there for being one of the longest to develop, most money spent before it flew, and longet time to reach actual deployment...

Nope. I am NOT it's biggest fan.



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3396 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6611 times:



Quoting StudeDave (Reply 5):
For as long as the V-22 has taken to finally get to a point where it's actually hauling Marines around, I'd bet it's already in the history books!!! It'll be in there for being one of the longest to develop, most money spent before it flew, and longet time to reach actual deployment...

Ok, compare that to the development of the conventional helicopter from toy to tool.

New ways of doing things usualy takes a while to refine and polish into a usable form.


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6554 times:



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 6):
New ways of doing things usualy takes a while to refine and polish into a usable form.

True enough. As the technology advances the challenges relative to applying it seem to grow ever larger. But then, nothing worth having comes cheap, monetarily or timewise.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineStudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6527 times:



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 6):
Ok, compare that to the development of the conventional helicopter from toy to tool.

I'm talking about one program- all at tax payers' expense-- start to finish--- are you?

Convince me the V-22 is a good bird~ AND that we're gettin' our money's worth...

Then we can talk.


Still NOT a fan...

StudeDave  cool 



Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6452 times:

I guess militairy commanders need raw lift with shrinking budgets.

Maybe an opporunity for Sikorsky..



User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6403 times:



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
Isn't the MV-22 a better platform all the way around than a rotary wing aircraft for the Marines' combat ops?

I would not say all the way around. It is better at a lot of things than the forty year old helicopter it is replacing, but I am not sure how much of an achievement that is.



Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4318 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6379 times:



Quoting StudeDave (Reply 8):
Convince me the V-22 is a good bird~ AND that we're gettin' our money's worth...

I don't think anyone would have a problem convincing you of the first part of your comment; however, only time will tell if the second part will ever come to fruition. And it never may.

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 10):
I would not say all the way around. It is better at a lot of things than the forty year old helicopter it is replacing, but I am not sure how much of an achievement that is.

For combat ops, I don't think a helo can touch the V-22. Given a choice, I don't think there's a commander around that would opt to mount out on a helo if they had the option to mount on a V-22.

But I'm not advocating that the V-22 should replace all rotary wing aircraft. There are plenty of utility operations that a helo could perform just as well, and for a lot less cost.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6359 times:



Quoting StudeDave (Reply 8):
Convince me the V-22 is a good bird~ AND that we're gettin' our money's worth...

It's a great platform when it works, but it's expensive and try as it may it will never justify the disproportionate amount of time and money spent to develop the aircraft.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Maybe an opporunity for Sikorsky..

An opportunity to bid a lose, sure - as seen in CSAR-X the US101 derived H-71 would have little trouble beating out any other rotary-winged platform available on the market for a supplemental medium Marine lift.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
But I'm not advocating that the V-22 should replace all rotary wing aircraft. There are plenty of utility operations that a helo could perform just as well, and for a lot less cost.

That's how I always thought the V-22 should be wielded, as a supplement to a more traditional modern rotary-winged platform that can still do things the Osprey cannot, and do so for less initial as well as operating costs.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
Why is a mixed buy better than a single-type buy?

But you don't need V-22's all the time, save the big guns for when you really need them.

Quoting SASD209 (Reply 4):
Oh, how about the AW139, or the S-92, or even the H-60, among others that I'm surely forgetting? If you have a choice, that's fine, but your original post is misleading along with the uncredited picture below the newspaper link.

Oh there might even be an actual RFP but if I were a betting man, I wouldn't put any chips on anything other than the H-71.

The H-71 is ideal for USMC medium lift and the Marines have already got their claws and teeth into it, it'd be all but improbable for they to buy an all new platform that wasn't the H-71.


User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6318 times:



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
For combat ops, I don't think a helo can touch the V-22. Given a choice, I don't think there's a commander around that would opt to mount out on a helo if they had the option to mount on a V-22.

I suppose it depends on what your mission is. The only advantage the Osprey gives you is speed over long distances. The short distance from the IP, to landing, disembark, takeoff, and clear of the LZ, the difference in time would be negligible for a V-22, H-46, or H-60. Since that is the most important and dangerous time in helo combat ops, I would think that most commanders would prefer an aircraft that has a suitable defensive weapon.

Long range, over the horizon, time critical, then yes the Osprey is your best bet.



Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4318 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6294 times:



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 13):
The only advantage the Osprey gives you is speed over long distances.

I believe it also offers advantages over a hot LZ in the form of faster insertions and extractions. It can fly in from a higher altitude, faster, and also accelerate far faster out of an LZ than a conventional rotary wing carrying the same payload. Its speed, even over short distances, is not something that can be easily discounted. A helo's slower speed, coupled with the relatively lower altitude, is also its weak spot over a battlefield - flying low and slow is never a good thing when you're being shot at. There's also the added advantage of the V-22 being self-deployable over long distances, which frees up valuable cargo-lift capabilities during a deployment.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineHighlander0 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6273 times:

Good luck to the H-71 - based on a fantastic and capable platform.

I think it'd be a good platform for AFG, where the dust (as described to me) is like talcum powder. This is where the MV-22 is going to be operating. Type "MV-22 Iraq" into Google's image search; get a few pages in and look at the pictures!

It looks (as the photo loaded in front of myself and a pilot) horrific in sand conditions! The small propellers/rotors and a powerful exhaust pointing downwards will whip up a storm, surely?

On another note- when the Merlin gets to AFG, it'll be interesting to hear reports on how well BERP IV works in disappating/reducing brownout conditions.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8491 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6183 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 12):
That's how I always thought the V-22 should be wielded, as a supplement to a more traditional modern rotary-winged platform that can still do things the Osprey cannot, and do so for less initial as well as operating costs.

Of course. But, one problem is they "need" many V-22 to offset the cost of research and development for that product.

But, it makes no sense to deprive ourselves of enough aircraft in the misguided notion that only the V-22 is good enough. The other products are plenty good enough to be very useful (I imagine), and we do know that they're cheap and reliable.

Military finance is so interesting because in a way, it's amazing our military is as good as it is, given that it's financially managed very poorly, or not at all, IMO.


User currently offlineSASD209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6149 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 12):
The H-71 is ideal for USMC medium lift and the Marines have already got their claws and teeth into it, it'd be all but improbable for they to buy an all new platform that wasn't the H-71.

I'm sorry, I must have missed the post that said the Marines were considering a RFP for a new medium-lift helicopter in this thread.....Other than your suppositions, personal observations and opinions, I see no substance to any of your posts, but only "defense analysts and insiders" who are unnamed and vague. I must be missing the point here, we're discussing an idea that does not officially exist...

[Edited 2009-05-08 01:09:06]

User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5819 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
Of course. But, one problem is they "need" many V-22 to offset the cost of research and development for that product.

Yeah, and we need more B-2 and F-22's as well for the same reason, but that just isn't happening anymore.

Quoting SASD209 (Reply 17):
Other than your suppositions, personal observations and opinions, I see no substance to any of your posts, but only "defense analysts and insiders" who are unnamed and vague. I must be missing the point here, we're discussing an idea that does not officially exist

LTG Trautman specifically said that if the QDR suggests that the Marines buy less tilt-rotor and more rotary-winged medium lift aircraft, he and the Marine Air Wing are open and willing to study the issue.

Quote:
The Pentagon is just beginning its Quadrennial Defense Review, a long-range study for determining future defense needs and strategies. Analysts have suggested this process will give Gates and like-minded Pentagon officials an opportunity to further reshape future plans for buying aircraft, ships and other weapons systems.

Trautman said the Marines “are very open-minded” and willing “to study that issue in the QDR if that subject comes up.”



User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5778 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
LTG Trautman specifically said that if the QDR suggests that the Marines buy less tilt-rotor and more rotary-winged medium lift aircraft, he and the Marine Air Wing are open and willing to study the issue.

Flew with him several times when he was the CO of MAG 36 in Okinawa. Will be nice if they follow through and actually review whether a mix with helo's is a better option. I would imagine that the first deployments to Iraq have opened some eyes on true capabilities of the aircraft, and what gaps are being left open.



Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4318 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5721 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
LTG Trautman specifically said that if the QDR suggests that the Marines buy less tilt-rotor and more rotary-winged medium lift aircraft, he and the Marine Air Wing are open and willing to study the issue.

IMO, that's just a political statement intended to appease his bosses. After all, he can't really say, "F*** no, we want only V-22s!"  Wink



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineCurt22 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5691 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
Navy/Marines are already familiar with the H-71

They are familiar alright...familiar with the utter and complete failure the H-71 program has been for them.

That said...it could be a great trash hauler but aside from making your richer Ryan...WHY would the USMC want a smaller, less powerful version of the H-53E/K when it already has them?


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5661 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Are some finally coming around to the realization that a mixed buy of say CH-71's and MV-22's is a better investment of taxpayer monies than throwing all your eggs in one tilt-rotor basket? Sure would help ease the pain for LM and the Owego plant with the cancellation of the VH-71.

I think your projecting your own opinions onto the article. No where in it is there any mention of the USMC buying CH-71's. When you think about it why would they. The Marines are in the process of bringing the V-22 along with the AH-1Z and UH-1Y on line. Add to that the CH-53K I would question the Marines willingness to bring a fifth aircraft type to the mix.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
LTG Trautman specifically said that if the QDR suggests that the Marines buy less tilt-rotor and more rotary-winged medium lift aircraft, he and the Marine Air Wing are open and willing to study the issue.

There is no mention in the article about the USMC possibly buying more rotary-winged medium lift aircraft. In fact the word medium is not even in the article.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5590 times:



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 19):
I would imagine that the first deployments to Iraq have opened some eyes on true capabilities of the aircraft, and what gaps are being left open.

The aircraft costs a lot more to operate than what has always been envisioned; the engines for example are not lasting as long as they had planned.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
IMO, that's just a political statement intended to appease his bosses. After all, he can't really say, "F*** no, we want only V-22s!" Wink

I agree, but again, if Obama's minions say find me a less expensive alternative because the V-22's are more expensive to purchase and operate, the Marines are going to have to do the due diligence.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 21):
WHY would the USMC want a smaller, less powerful version of the H-53E/K when it already has them?

Because their are ops and situations where a heavy lift, and in the CH-53K's case, a heavy-plus lift helo can't perform and or operate.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 22):
The Marines are in the process of bringing the V-22 along with the AH-1Z and UH-1Y on line. Add to that the CH-53K I would question the Marines willingness to bring a fifth aircraft type to the mix.

But the 5th aircraft type in this case can be argued is the V-22; a traditional medium-lift rotary-winged platform such as the H-71 would simply be replacing the H-46 and the V-22 would be like the F-22 in the USAF, procured in small numbers and used for it's speed attributes when necessary.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 22):
There is no mention in the article about the USMC possibly buying more rotary-winged medium lift aircraft.

The article implies such...

Quote:

But Gates let it be known recently he also plans to challenge the Marines to better justify some of their costly future weapons buying plans.

A number of defense analysts and insiders, including some former think tank officials who have received appointments in the new administration, have written studies suggesting the Marines need a mix of transport helicopters and V-22s. Modern helicopters could be bought for $20 million or less, compared to the roughly $80 million initial price tag of the V-22.



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 19):
Flew with him several times when he was the CO of MAG 36 in Okinawa.

And so as a former Phrog driver I'm sure he understands that while the V-22 has some awesome qualities it may not be entirely prudent to invest the bulk of the Marine Air Wing in tilt-rotor technology, at least not in this current generation of aircraft when the Corps is otherwise simultaneously pursuing other rotary-winged platforms in the H-1 upgrades and CH-53K. The tilt-rotor concept is a lot more efficient when the entire Air Wing is operating tilt-rotors and maybe the Corps will get there someday in our lifetime, just not anywhere in the next twenty-five plus years or so.


User currently offlineWassupsf From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5526 times:

All right I want my two cents thrown in. I am not a former Marine, but I am a former soldier and helicopter guy. I have worked on very modern ( G450-550 ) aircraft and currently I am back in Iraq working on Chinooks again. I have been on, looked all over, and talked to Osprey guys. It has nothing on a dual main rotor helicopter other than pure speed. The aircraft has almost no cargo capacity other than troops, it is all composite ( which is nice in the civilian world but in Iraq or Afghanistan getting repair materials is not as easy.), and right now is being backed up by conventional helicopters. It was a neat idea. But, it cost to much and took to long and to many lives to get it going. The Air Force has chosen the newest HH-47 to be its next payload search and rescue helicopter. It can lift more, its fast, and its proven.

Goodbye V-22


25 JoeCanuck : The US was willing to eat the 7 billion it put into the comanche...and that was one nifty chopper, as far as I could tell. I doubt the V-22 is complet
26 Wassupsf : None, even though it is an all weather aircraft, most of the time the military won't let it fly with fair weather pilots.
27 Dragon6172 : Actually he was a Huey pilot by trade, but as MAG CO you get to fly everything in your command. Funny story. 262 was sending some Phroggys to the Phi
28 RedFlyer : That's still a huge advantage. Speed has always been a rotary wing's Achilles heel. And speed has usually been the most effective tool in battle.
29 Wassupsf : I talked to a couple of sheetmetal Marines today and they told me that the one true advantage of the Osprey is that it won't corrode like the heli's w
30 Dragon6172 : I would consider lift the achilles heel of helo's. In Iraq in the heat of the summer it was a weight issue. In Afghanistan at the high altitudes it i
31 LMP737 : That's a hard argument to make since the H-71 is not in the inventory and the V-22 is. And when would the V-22 be "necessary"? Right now it's flying
32 AirRyan : The V-22 is the epitome of the Marine slogan "hurry up and wait" - the V-22 can out-run it's rotary-winged brethren, but what good is that unless the
33 JoeCanuck : How does the Chinook compare to the V-22? I saw a report that currently, most of the heavy lifting in high and hot Afghanistan is being done by the Ch
34 RedFlyer : There are always environmental operational issues with every aircraft. And I'm certainly not saying the V-22 is a panacea for combat ops. But if we'r
35 TexL1649 : Geeze, airyan, given that mentality, none of our military hardware today would need to have been purchased, unless it had a top speed equivalent to a
36 Post contains links and images L-188 : Right idea, wrong aircraft. What they need to kill is that lousy UH1Y and just order CH-60's. View Large View MediumPhoto © Robin Powney The Knig
37 Post contains links Keesje : The Hawk entered service 30 yrs ago and been produced in large numbers. Many UH-60M's are also be produced to replace older Hawks. Why was it not sel
38 LMP737 : What advantage would the Marines get by killing the UH-1Y and ordering MH-60's? That would mean a whole lot of money flushed down the tubes. It would
39 StudeDave : Uhhhh- you might want to inform my many many friends who have indeed deployed on those boats that it never happened, and they were never there. I thi
40 AirRyan : But if that was all there was to it the extra speed of the V-22 wouldn't really matter as you could just coordinate to compensate for it. If the V-22
41 RedFlyer : Not really. It's speed advantage goes to the benefit (read survivability) of the grunts that are flying into or out of a hot LZ and has nothing to do
42 L-188 : You know anytime somebody points out the V-22 history, I feel I have to point out that the B-17, B-29, F-14 and F-16 all had crashes during their dev
43 Post contains links and images AirRyan : From what I have heard it's not a great platform to winch off of on the aft ramp. That and I think it's too expensive and slightly too large for USCG
44 RedFlyer : Not that I doubt what you're saying, but I would be interested in learning why it wouldn't be a good platform for winching off of. Can't argue with y
45 CTR : This statement reflects a common misconception. With the exception of one VRS accident caused by the pilot violating the recommended flight envelope,
46 Post contains links and images L-188 : Why would you hoist off the rear ramp when you have a perfectly good front door available? View Large View MediumPhoto © Kevin Whitehead - Jetwa
47 Dragon6172 : Where the hell are you going to mount the hoist for crew door winching? You forget that in airplane mode the blades are 6 inches from that door. Hard
48 Highlander0 : One MASSIVE problem with the V-22 is the downwash. Small diameter blades/props+jet efflux when the turboprop engines point vertical= quite a problem.
49 L-188 : If they can figure out how to get a hoist on the HH-65, they can get one on a V-22...Wasn't the USAF developing a combat rescue version of this aircr
50 Dragon6172 : I am not sure why you picked this comparison. There is all sorts of room on an H-65 to mount the hoist, and there is no clearance issue with the blad
51 Highlander0 : I saw that when I was at work and with all due respect to L-188, I thought you skipped past what Dragon had posted!
52 Post contains images Curt22 : - No, USAF wasn't developing a "Rescue" version of V-22, BA was thinking of offering the V-22 for the (PRV) CSAR-X program, but decided not to bid th
53 Curt22 : The acft wasn't designed to be a 'cargo hauler' in the sense that Chinooks were and that's why it doesn't have a significant cargo capacity...There s
54 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Which means one would be a dangling target when a quick escape is needed and couldn't take advantage of the fast, full forward rotor position. Just a
55 CTR : Is repelling from an aircraft flying at 275kts even possible? Maybe in a James Bond movie. Even without the rotors tilted forward enough to block the
56 Dragon6172 : We were limited to 60-80 knots when SPIE rigging.
57 DEVILFISH : Was just stating the obvious. Is it the same limit when winching up injured personnel back into the aircraft, and getting out of the extraction zone
58 L-188 : I don't know about going downhill, but they did it in both Airport 75 and Cliffhanger. Going up to the airplane, do a search for Fulton Recover Syste
59 Dragon6172 : I was replying to the question of whether 100 knots would be too much to be hanging from a rope/cable. I certainly would not have winched in forward
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