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The Vigilante Rises Again  
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 15737 times:

Perhaps affected in the agricultural front by the current economic situation, Air Tractor is now reviving their converted V-1A Vigilante for potential sale to the USAF and "other militaries". They consider it a good aircraft for "irregular warfare" and see it fitting in areas like Afghanistan.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/AT-802U_3.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/AT-802U_3.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/cgi-bin/...earch=Air+Tractor&IncludeBlogs=108

Quote:
"The Air Tractor AT-802U is now en route from Olney, Texas, to Le Bourget, France, to be unveiled at the Paris Air Show, said Lee Jackson, design engineer.

Featuring an armoured fuselage, a 10hr loiter time and the ability to haul more than 8,000lb of payload, unarmed AT-802Us have been operated by the US State Department in South America since 2002 eradicating drug crops, Jackson said.

Air Tractor is now offering the weaponized AT-802U Air Truck to the US Air Force and other militaries to serve as a a trainer/light attack fighter. After its international debut in Paris, the PT6A-67F-powered turboprop will return to Olney for a series of wepaons and sensor integration trials, he said."


If not for the current market slump, it could be said the timing was spot on, with so many insurgencies ongoing around the world. One might even think this other blog entry was not entirely coincidental.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...ost-unfortunate-headline-of-t.html


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15732 times:

You had me all excited that a North American A-5 Vigilante was resurrected and flying by the Collins Foundation or CAA or someone!

I shall name you Destroyer of Dreams.

 

[Edited 2009-06-12 21:53:48]


Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15722 times:

Been tried so many times (based on all kinds of aircraft) I've stopped counting.
Fact is, apart from some "rebel armies" noone wants a cropduster or GA light aircraft with a few rocket pods and machine guns slung under the wings.
Armed forces want Apaches or Mi-24s, F-16s and MiG-29s.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4071 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15735 times:

Yes, you fooled me as well, I thought we were going to see the USN Viggi airborne again, that would be impressive !


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15722 times:



Quoting Jwenting (Reply 2):
Been tried so many times (based on all kinds of aircraft) I've stopped counting.
Fact is, apart from some "rebel armies" noone wants a cropduster or GA light aircraft with a few rocket pods and machine guns slung under the wings.
Armed forces want Apaches or Mi-24s, F-16s and MiG-29s.

The concept of a turboprop light attack aircraft is coming back into vogue for those nations that are actively involved in counter-insurgencies. They are cheap, can carry a decent amount of ordinance, and can stay aloft for a reasonable amount of time.


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15713 times:
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Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 1):
You had me all excited that a North American A-5 Vigilante was resurrected and flying by the Collins Foundation or CAA or someone!

 checkmark 

Thought we had a Vigi flying, got a crop duster instead....  frown 



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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29699 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 15565 times:



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 1):
You had me all excited that a North American A-5 Vigilante was resurrected and flying by the Collins Foundation or CAA or someone!

I too was disapointed.

I don't know how well this "poor mans A-10" will do.

I suspect that somebody with a dedicated design would have better luck.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15447 times:
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I have to say that modern militaries are not really interested in an airplane too slow to avoid being shot down by a helicopter (guns even), but it may be that they're missing on a basic issue. Such an airplane is a great COIN aircraft, if it's being used in airspace dominated by friendly air.

It's very cheap, and one of the reasons that no one wants it is that it's a terrible career post for a fighter dominated Air Force. The USMC got rid of the OV-10s after the first Gulf War because they took losses, and they figured they could do the same job with UAVs, plus any money spent on these things took away from the big jets they wanted. Same goes for the USAF. They don't want little airplanes (hell, they don't want the A-10s) that have to take ground fire.

I think this airplane, or any like it, could be a real benefit to convoys, pipeline patrols and quick reaction for long range patrols. Jets don't have the loiter time these things will, and the Afghans adn Iraqis would do well to look hard at them. Can buy several of these for what it costs to buy one Apache.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 15376 times:

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 1):
I shall name you Destroyer of Dreams.

Thank you. I think that goes well with my user name.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 2):
Fact is, apart from some "rebel armies" noone wants a cropduster or GA light aircraft with a few rocket pods and machine guns slung under the wings.
Armed forces want Apaches or Mi-24s, F-16s and MiG-29s.

While they doubtless dream about such fancy machines (old tech by FW standards) it's also a fact that the insurgencies are mostly in poor, Thirld World countries where there won't be any money left to keep those flying if they bought them - that is, if they could afford to buy in the first place. The choice is "need" rather than "want". And it quickly dawns that purposely designed combat helos and fighter jets are way "overkill" for chasing ragtag rebels (albeit supplied with MANPADs) in their mountainous jungle lairs and scattered island hideaways.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
I don't know how well this "poor mans A-10" will do.

This said it fared quite well in South/Central America and in Southeast Asia.....

http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n3/articles/ayres.html


Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
I suspect that somebody with a dedicated design would have better luck.

Well, Hawker Beechcraft already won the Iraqi contest.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_AT-6B_Concept_Desert_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...es/AIR_AT-6B_Concept_Desert_lg.jpg

These are almost always included in any shortlist.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Super_Tucanos_Formation_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...AIR_Super_Tucanos_Formation_lg.jpg

While this had been selected for the PAF IINM, but was subsequently dropped due to alleged "irregularities".....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_AH-6_Little_Bird_Display_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...IR_AH-6_Little_Bird_Display_lg.jpg

Quoting DL021 (Reply 7):
I have to say that modern militaries are not really interested in an airplane too slow to avoid being shot down by a helicopter (guns even), but it may be that they're missing on a basic issue. Such an airplane is a great COIN aircraft, if it's being used in airspace dominated by friendly air.


http://www.timawa.net/images/modernization/vigilante.jpg

Yes. Recall that we have discussed it two years ago.....

U.S.A.F. Bids Coin Platform For Iraq (by DEVILFISH May 4 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

The COIN aircraft for the most part, are not intended for the USAF per se, but for the various entities it is supporting. IMO, the points given in this piece remain valid.....

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/WJohnson.html

Quote:
"According to the original FID study conducted by AFSOC in 1991, a majority of Third World air forces either do not possess the appropriate aircraft or are unable to maintain the aircraft they do have. Moreover, 'they have equipped their air forces to fight external wars, often with fast-moving jet aircraft entirely unsuited to counter-insurgency, counternarcotics, and nation-building operations.' These aircraft tend to be expensive, maintenance intensive, and possessing limited to no capability to access remote areas. Accounting for this tendency is the fact that foreign air forces tend to look to the US Air Force as a model and mentor. Unfortunately, since the US Air Force has 'concentrated on developing sophisticated tactical and special operations weapons systems for US war-fighting requirements, its aircraft are far too expensive and complex for use by Third World governments.' Yet the innate tendency of the US Air Force is to encourage Third World air forces to buy these very systems. And very often, small foreign air forces acquire these self-same systems more for 'prestige' purposes than military necessity."

[Edited 2009-06-14 00:21:34]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 15260 times:

It's been tried, look up the Piper Enforcer for example.
I'd want something like that for my air force if I had to go on a budget and wanted to buy new, not a cropduster with rocket pods under the wings.

Apart from some armed trainers doing double duty as light attack aircraft (heck, the RAF planned to use their Hawks as point defence interceptors to shoot down Soviet Bears and Badgers over the North Sea) there's not been much commercial success.
Bronco is probably the last one that did sell, and that one was quite a bit larger than a cropduster.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15160 times:



Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
It's been tried, look up the Piper Enforcer for example.

Well, one is bound to succeed, while most others would fail. It's survival of the fittest (or the one best connected). At the moment, that one seems to be the AT-6B, with its first export sale to Iraq - courtesy of the USAF. The parallel purchase of the basic trainer variant for the US air force and navy could only help it along. Maybe Afghanistan would follow. The Super Tucano isn't doing too badly either, with another recent sale.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
I'd want something like that for my air force if I had to go on a budget and wanted to buy new, not a cropduster with rocket pods under the wings.

It may be a bit difficult for you to appreciate what minuscule "budgets" air forces contemplating this "improvised" solution are working with. To give you an idea, they're having a very hard time just providing their men uniforms and keeping them shod. Don't even mention housing.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
Apart from some armed trainers doing double duty as light attack aircraft (heck, the RAF planned to use their Hawks as point defence interceptors to shoot down Soviet Bears and Badgers over the North Sea) there's not been much commercial success.
Bronco is probably the last one that did sell, and that one was quite a bit larger than a cropduster.

While Air Tractor would certainly be hoping for bigger sales, I think they also realise that there is no prospect of a long production run for such an endeavour - that they're just filling up an unfilled need, which hopefully, could tide them over until they could revert to their regular bread and butter products. The conversions wouldn't take much investment on their part, and they could call themselves lucky if another two or three countries order the same. And those air arms will definitely look to Hawker or Embraer first if they had the money.

As it is, the adoption of converted GA aircraft seems to be going well.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ty-flies-first-combat-mission.html



MC-12 Flies First Combat Mission
(Source: U.S Air Force; issued June 11, 2009)

Quote:
"JOINT BASE BALAD, Iraq --- The Air Force's newest intelligence, reconnaissance and surveillance aircraft flew its first combat sortie June 10 over Iraq.

The MC-12 Liberty, assigned to the 362nd Expeditionary Reconnaissance Squadron, arrived in Iraq June 8 and took off from Joint Base Balad at approximately 2:30 p.m. local time for a four-hour mission."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineVzlet From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 15026 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 8):
These are almost always included in any shortlist.....

Regarding those Tucanos, Maverick's "gutsiest move ever" may be getting some competition: centerline-mounted rocket pods on single-engine props!



"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29699 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 14884 times:



Quoting Vzlet (Reply 11):
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 8):
These are almost always included in any shortlist.....

Regarding those Tucanos, Maverick's "gutsiest move ever" may be getting some competition: centerline-mounted rocket pods on single-engine props!

Do they make interupter gear for rocket pods?  flamed 

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 8):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
I suspect that somebody with a dedicated design would have better luck.

Well, Hawker Beechcraft already won the Iraqi contest.....

Well at least that is developed on a military airframe.

Picture this gun-nose B-25J reengined with PW-120's.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineJderden777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1754 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 14842 times:

Might not be as far fetched as you think...it could find a niche role with AFSOC. After all the USN is testing a Super Tucano or two....


"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 14799 times:

I know this is the wrong (right! in my mind) Vigilante, but...




When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 14791 times:



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 1):
You had me all excited that a North American A-5 Vigilante was resurrected and flying

 checkmark   Sad

Quoting N328KF (Reply 14):
I know this is the wrong (right! in my mind) Vigilante, but...

Yeah, that would turn some heads at Oskosh ! Unfortunately..

video ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyIOyQniNe0


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6590 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14770 times:

I see it wants nice 7.62mm gatlings... Why not shove it on a moveable turret, and put 2 turrents under an AN-2  Smile You can have the AN2 with turboprops (AN3)  Smile Then it can serve as aerial COIN Command post... that'll make the other attacking platforms even deadlier ! *I must be kidding!* The AN2/AN3 is also from the agricultural background by usage...

When you need to go in (as in too close), just paradrop some troops, and pick them up later if there's some flat land there... or get a man extractor since the plane can fly slow enough... (<50kts estimated stall speed)... Now that's a versatile COIN platform!  Smile  Smile Much cheaper than a helicopter.

Otherwise...
Bring back the SPAD!!!!!

Actually, since the Iraqis already have Caravans, my not make an attack version of the Caravan? Use the underbelly cargo pods as bomb bays  Smile or the PAC750XL attack version if you want ugly looking airframes.

I think I've drunk too much!

COIN aircraft = Ugly looking aircraft carrying loads of cheap unguided munitions right?



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineTrigged From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 14484 times:

Not sure about the effectiveness of a crop duster for anything other than crop dusting. Armor the cockpits as have been done and let them just dust the coca/poppy fields. If you want CAS aircraft, go back to something like the A-1D Skyraider or F-8F Bearcat. I hear alot of arguments about the fact that props are slow. Yes, they are slow because of their intended purpose. You want something that can loiter over the battlefield at a distance out of small-arms range, but close enough to be called in on a moments notice.

A turbine powered F-8F or A-1D would make more sense. They did make six new copies of the FW-190. Maybe those are available for hire? Big grin


User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 14369 times:



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4):



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 4):
The concept of a turboprop light attack aircraft is coming back into vogue for those nations that are actively involved in counter-insurgencies. They are cheap, can carry a decent amount of ordinance, and can stay aloft for a reasonable amount of time.

nothing that an A-10 can't do now, besides I can't remember what it is called but the US already has a design and it was discussed about a year ago bringing it back, it was a prop job they used in Korea and vietnam the aircraft was developed towards the end of WWII and from my understanding is they already have some in storage. (if anyone can help with the name or pics it would be appreciated) Its much more capable than the aircraft pictured above


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 14327 times:
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Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 18):
besides I can't remember what it is called but the US already has a design and it was discussed about a year ago bringing it back, it was a prop job they used in Korea and vietnam the aircraft was developed towards the end of WWII and from my understanding is they already have some in storage. (if anyone can help with the name or pics it would be appreciated) Its much more capable than the aircraft pictured above

Boeing has been discussing bringing the Bronco back into production. It's Vietnam vintage not WWII or Korea though.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Markus Willmann




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User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 14210 times:



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 18):
nothing that an A-10 can't do now, besides I can't remember what it is called but the US already has a design and it was discussed about a year ago bringing it back, it was a prop job they used in Korea and vietnam the aircraft was developed towards the end of WWII and from my understanding is they already have some in storage

Maybe the A-1 Skyraider but I don't think it was in Korea or the A-20 Havoc or A-26 Marauder? You can Google it for pix I just woke up and don't have the time to post pix.

Hearing the OV-10 might come back is cool... I saw them still down at Patricks AFB near Cocoa, FL all the time til just recently it seems.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6681 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14158 times:

Any time you have air dominance anything that flies can be used for ground attack, and the slower it flies and the more maneuverable it is the easier it is to hit ground targets precisely. This plus its excellent armor is why the A10 has proved to be so effective. However, if there is any aerial opposition the requirements for effective aircraft increase dramatically.


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11226 times:

A year and a month after the last post - this comes out. Air Tractor must be laughing all the way to the bank.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ent-fighter-to-first-customer.html

Quote:
"Texas-based Air Tractor has launched production of the AT-802U surveillance, precision strike and utility aircraft for an undisclosed foreign customer, chief designer Lee Jackson confirms.

Details about the order's size and identity remain secret at the request of the customer, Jackson says.

The converted cropduster parked on the static line also displayed a full array of weaponry, including an all-new precision glide bomb with 3m (10ft) circular error probable (CEP) accuracy in the 50kg (110lb)-class designed by Moog/FTS that is called the 'border protection weapon' (BPW).



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Simon Curtis

With the ability to carry a 4,000kg payload and 10h endurance, the AT-802U is able to carry a wide range of weapons and sensors, Jackson says.

On nine hard points, the static AT-802U carried two 50-cal GAU-19 Gatling guns, two BPWs, one AGM-114 Hellfire, four direct attack guided rockets (DAGR), two Mk82 (225kg-class) bombs and a launcher for unguided rockets.

In the fuselage beneath the nose, the AT-802 also carries a partially retractable targeting and surveillance sensor called the L-3 Communications Wescam MX-15Di."



If one has to guess about the customer, this news report provides a clue.....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/22/ap/asia/main6701439.shtml

SEPilot (Reply 21):
However, if there is any aerial opposition the requirements for effective aircraft increase dramatically.

There's probably not going to be aerial opposition. The real opposition would likely be aired through the various groups protesting the idea.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2010/07/29/AR2010072906010.html


If the assumption was off the mark, another possibility lies slightly north of there - or halfway around the world where the other flag on the tail belongs.

[Edited 2010-08-01 21:36:44]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11221 times:

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 19):
Boeing has been discussing bringing the Bronco back into production. It's Vietnam vintage not WWII or Korea though.


Is this what the Ravens used to fly recco?


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10961 times:

Here is my recommendation:

http://www.aerospace.co.nz/aircraft/...e-aircraft/fletcher-fu-25-defender

I built a wood model of one of these when I was like 7, loved them ever since.


25 mffoda : I think Wvsuperhornet was refering to the ---> AD / A-1 Skyraider.
26 Bennett123 : Once the bad guys get SAM 7's ..........
27 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : It seems SAM 7s would be overkill - but the report indicates landing error..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...precision-strike-demonstrator.h
28 hka098 : They did make six new copies of the FW-190. Maybe those are available for hire? Big grin Now you're talking!
29 ZANL188 : Sure would like to see ANY discussion of bringing the Skyraider back....
30 Post contains links and images 474218 : When I read the title I got excited, but upon opening the thread I was sure disappointed. I though it was this Vigilante that was raising: View Large
31 HaveBlue : I still get to see A-1 Skyraiders fly at the TICO airshow (Titusville, FL) every year, and I'm thankful for that.
32 Post contains images DEVILFISH : The half-scale or so replicas look to be about the same size as the AT-802U..... Alas, nobody came forward to fund an armed, full-size production ver
33 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Did you mean this?..... Indeed, an outfit called ATK is trying to resurrect the type for the COIN mission..... http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th..
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