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Helicopters In Afghanistan  
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7687 times:

I have heard from more than one place that ISAF is short Helicopters for operations in Afghanistan ... Why ?

How in the world are we having trouble resupplying our FOB's in Helmand ? How can we initiate a huge operation into Helmand and not have plenty of lift ! .

1. Should command add more aircraft to the aviation assets assigned to the brigades ? I understand that we assign a combat brigade and its air assets .. is the air assets enough? seems it is not.

2. Is it maintenance issues ... flight crew deployments , or is it just the number of helicopters.?

3. Do the use fix wing ? Like C130 C27 .. Is it a option ?

I guess it just worries me when we have problems getting the beans and bullets too our guys out there. I am no expert about it just a concerned citizen.


You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7661 times:

Another simple question .... are our Helos to "hightech" and less functional to operate in these hard battlefield areas and high use environments.-. Does the number of support personal and logistics hamper deployments of more aircraft ?


You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7601 times:

Higher altitudes in Afghanistan mean each helicopter has less lift capability. Requires more aircraft to do the same job than it would at sea level.


Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7493 times:



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 2):
Requires more aircraft to do the same job than it would at sea level.

Then it appears that command underestimated severely ,

The MI-26 shot down last week ... who was operating that aircraft .? Contractors I assume ?



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7360 times:



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 2):
Higher altitudes in Afghanistan mean each helicopter has less lift capability.

There are a lot of CH-47s in country. These are operated by the RAF, Italian Air Force, and US Army. They are the primary high altitude heavy lift helio in Afghanistan.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
The MI-26 shot down last week ... who was operating that aircraft .? Contractors I assume ?

That is correct.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7333 times:

Hinds and Mi-8s didn't seem to have issues in Afghanistan, till the locals got a hold of Stingers. I wouldn't worry, I think we have plenty of airlift to get guns and butter to the boots on the ground.
UH60FtRucker is our resident rotary-wing expert and our go-to helicopter guy, but I haven't seen him around lately.  Smile



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7299 times:

The French just brought the Tiger to the scene;

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...r-helicopters-arrive-in-kabul.html




[edit post]
User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7285 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
There are a lot of CH-47s in country. These are operated by the RAF, Italian Air Force, and US Army. They are the primary high altitude heavy lift helio in Afghanistan.

I agree that the 47's are the primary aircraft being used in country. A mission requiring heavy lift in Afghanistan probably would require medium lift in Iraq though. I would guess that they are not heading out with full bags of fuel and max passengers.



Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7215 times:



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 5):
I wouldn't worry, I think we have plenty of airlift to get guns and butter to the boots on the ground.
UH60FtRucker is our resident rotary-wing expert and our go-to helicopter guy, but I haven't seen him around lately.

I have not heard much complaint from the US side of the coalition , but it is a big debate with the Brits. M Yon who is embedded with a rifle platoon in Helmand says that lift is very limited for them. Randy Gardie , a local reporter who has been with the french and Germans posted that they are having allot of problems as well.

Me thinks UH is somewhere over there making dust clouds.... I wish them well.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7165 times:

Not too much interest in the thread , so what the hell here are some pics to show the tough operations going on in Afghanistan . It really must be a brutal task to keep the birds operating . Here is too the maintenance crews !

Big version: Width: 400 Height: 261 File size: 45kb
Big version: Width: 294 Height: 258 File size: 9kb
Big version: Width: 640 Height: 425 File size: 75kb
Big version: Width: 640 Height: 427 File size: 21kb
Big version: Width: 427 Height: 640 File size: 94kb



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6943 times:

Nope. There's a very large demand for air assets, yes, but there is adequate support provided for essential mission requests.

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6921 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
yes, but there is adequate support provided for essential mission requests.

Translation.

We can get the job done but we wish we had more....  Big grin



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1822 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6919 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):

Translation.

We can get the job done but we wish we had more.... Big grin

Another translation: we have enough to do essential tasks, but in order to allow our forces to perform to its best, we need more helicopters.


User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6914 times:



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 12):
Another translation: we have enough to do essential tasks, but in order to allow our forces to perform to its best, we need more helicopters.

Actually that wasn't what I was saying.

Adding more aircraft the the BTOE/MTOE literally means a direct increase in almost every other MTOE requirement. More pilots, more crew chiefs, more fuelers, more equipment, more everything. The current design adequately balances the allotments against the needs. It is up to the specific unit level commands to insure those allotments are filled and/or manned.

Honestly - and it's not AGM's fault - but this sounds more like bitching, for the sake of bitching. And soldiers, airmen and marines can be quite good at it.  Smile

So anyway, no further translation is needed: there are enough helicopters here to meet mission requirements.


User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6872 times:

UH60,
When you say ;

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
There's a very large demand for air assets, yes, but there is adequate support provided for essential mission requests.

Does that go for all the forces presently there or are you talking specifically about the US forces?
In other words , is there indeed a big helicopter shortage for the UK in Afghanistan much more so than the other nations involved (NL , DK , CAN , AUS , GER,..........) ?




Second question , a bit of topic, but how will the Tiger work out in Afghanistan, is it the right attack helicopter for the sort of work it has to do there (weapons, range, armour, high altitude performance ,.....) ?



[edit post]
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6841 times:



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 14):
but how will the Tiger work out in Afghanistan

Speaking with some of our Apache pilots from AZANG who have been there and training to deploy again. The mission is patrolling at night around our ground forces and searching out enemy moving about in the dark. Mainly looking for "IED planting , and enemy pre positioning for ambushes.

Sounds like you need a damn good night vision IR package ... and a accurate 30mm chain gun. The sensor and NV camera work is very important for the mission.... I am sure it is far more complex than that but this is how it sounded to me.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6749 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 13):

Honestly - and it's not AGM's fault - but this sounds more like bitching, for the sake of bitching. And soldiers, airmen and marines can be quite good at it.

Damm straight!!!

I look at it like having too much gasoline on a aircraft. Only when it is on fire!

If you aren't getting shot at you have enough, If you are getting shot at, there isn't enough firepower that can be brought in.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6708 times:

If only the UK would had gone with the Blackhawk proposal:

http://www.u.tv/News/MoD-rejected-th...a0a2c0-4866-4b46-b780-1c2102d83259

and

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ju.../mod-reject-black-hawk-helicopters

Quoting from the article:
Defence industry sources have also revealed that under the initial offer from Connecticut-based Sikorsky in 2007, 60 Black Hawks would already have been available for British forces in Helmand province, where they have sustained heavy casualties from roadside bombs in their renewed offensive against the Taliban.

The damaging revelations come days after the head of the army, General Sir Richard Dannatt, was forced to use an American-forces Black Hawk on a visit to Afghanistan due to the shortage of British helicopters.

James Arbuthnot, chairman of the defence committee, whose report last week condemned the Puma refit and expressed concern over its "poor survivability" in combat, said: "The Black Hawks are extremely good, they could be acquired in large numbers and the cost of running them would be low."

Would've been nice though



[edit post]
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6689 times:

Has the aviation compliment been increased along with the latest "surge"? There are more boots on the ground now than during any other period since 2001, does that translate into more aviation assets as well?.

If what Secretary of Defense Gates is saying is correct US forces in Iraq should be down to 50,000 or so in 12-18 months, that would mean for the first time since the 2003 invasion there will be more US troops in Afghanistan than Iraq. Hopefully what force level and equipment needs commanders in Afghanistan feel they need will not have to compete against request from commanders in Iraq.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6677 times:



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 14):
Does that go for all the forces presently there or are you talking specifically about the US forces?
In other words , is there indeed a big helicopter shortage for the UK in Afghanistan much more so than the other nations involved (NL , DK , CAN , AUS , GER,..........) ?

Well... I'm not an expert on what other nations are lacking, here in the 'Stan. In the vast majority of my dealings with them, they really don't NEED a large air support element. The majority of their missions are closer to the FOB, and more public relations and population security, aid and support. When their missions take them to unsecured, hot areas, they are often provided US support... who does have a large air element to lend support.

As for the Brits... they are a very self-sustaining force in many ways. They have their own organic air elements and they use them in conjunction with their operations. From my dealings, they do so efficiently and professionally. I guess if any nation needed MORE assets, it would be the Brits -- but it wouldn't stop at just more helicopters, they need more of a lot of things.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
If what Secretary of Defense Gates is saying is correct US forces in Iraq should be down to 50,000 or so in 12-18 months, that would mean for the first time since the 2003 invasion there will be more US troops in Afghanistan than Iraq. Hopefully what force level and equipment needs commanders in Afghanistan feel they need will not have to compete against request from commanders in Iraq.

Well that's not how it works.

You don't just have a CAB lying around, and the pentagon suddenly says, "Hey! You're not doing anything, get yourselves over to Afghanistan!"

These rotations are mapped out quite literally YEARS in advance. So the draw down of troops in Iraq in 12-18 months does not automatically translate to an immediate increase in troops in Afghanistan.

Moving troops is extremely complicated and difficult.... and most important... it takes a good amount of time.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
Has the aviation compliment been increased along with the latest "surge"? There are more boots on the ground now than during any other period since 2001, does that translate into more aviation assets as well?.

Yes.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

Interesting article on the use of Russian helos in Afghanistan. Could probably warrant its own thead, but this one seems handy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090808/...e_as/as_afghanistan_russian_planes

Quote:
MOSCOW – More than a year ago, the U.N. dropped the Russian air transport company Vertikal-T from its approved list of vendors after a fatal helicopter crash in Nepal.

Yet NATO continued to use helicopters owned by Vertikal-T in Afghanistan. And on July 19, one of those choppers crashed at southern Afghanistan's largest NATO base, killing 16 civilians on board.

The crash reflects a little-known reality behind NATO's military push in Afghanistan: It is relying on Russian aviators flying Soviet-design aircraft, who are clocking up lucrative contracts in a country Russian troops left two decades ago.

Aviation industry analysts say many of these contractors have bad safety records, and allege that NATO has hired some operators with questionable backgrounds through arms-length leasing deals. These same analysts say governments have outsourced crucial military contracts to little-known companies.

"Normally this would be handled by the military, but the military have been cut back. ... They are plugging the gaps with dodgy operators," said Hugh Griffiths, an analyst at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, or SIPRI.




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4055 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6417 times:

The Royal Norwegian Airforce uses Bell 412 SP in Afghanistan, mainly for medical evac of Norwegian and international forces:


Some pictures:

http://www.mil.no/luft/start/article.jhtml?articleID=174717

http://www.mil.no/luft/start/article.jhtml?articleID=166726

http://www.mil.no/start/article.jhtml?articleID=160999


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5929 times:

Yon posted a interesting story this week about Helo operations . The Taliban are working to take the roads back by mining and IED's. Road denial just puts another huge strain on our Helo operators as described in Yon's article. I am sure some of our fellow Anet members have experienced this rotor effect .. man that is something .


http://www.michaelyon-online.com/the-kopp-etchells-effect.htm



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5257 times:

Another trip to the front-lines with Mike Yon... On-board with USAF PJ's on MH-60 Black-hawk MEDEVAC mission near Kandahar. Amazing pictures of a great squadron in action.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/pedros.htm



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4442 times:

I read today in AWST that the UK is sending in the Merlins . Evidently the new rotors and high hot mods have been completed as well as squadron training at El Toro. I would say this is good news ... It makes sense that the troops have every helicopter available. I don't know much about the aircraft ... but " it looks good " . Godspeed to the squadron , good luck and good flying.


You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
25 Columba : I know that the Germans have shortage of helicopters. Currently they are only using CH 53s since the NH 90 is not ready to be deployed. Right now they
26 Post contains links CTR : The US Marines have now announced the V-22 Osprey is headed to Afganistan shortly. CTR http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...us.ART.State.Edition1.3d
27 GDB : Yep, the Merlins should be in theatre starting years end, they will provide a major enhancement. The RAF Chinooks are getting more powerful engines, s
28 Spacepope : Word is that the USMC is sending in 12 Ospreys next month. Let's hope they have at least as much success as in Iraq.
29 AGM100 : A sad weekend for Aviation forces in Afghanistan . We need to remember that this is deadly serious business and our guys do it day in and day out. Man
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