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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c  
User currently offlineChuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 771 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12686 times:

http://www.liberation.fr/monde/01015...gocier-l-achat-de-36-avions-rafale

(in french)

Brazil will start negociations for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, in exchange for an order of 12 Embraer military transport aircraft, and unprecedented technology transfer.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12688 times:

So does it mean that France will get 12 C-390s?


Now get your f***ing Jumbo Jet off my airport!!! - AC/DC "Ain't No Fun To Be a Millionaire"
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 928 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12633 times:

I wonder what Argentina, Chile and Colombia will do now? They have to keep up with the Joneses...

User currently offlineAllegro From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 12565 times:

WOW!!

Congratulations to Dassault for getting a much needed sale!



Flown on: DC-3, DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, MD-90, 707, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, A300, A310, A320, A330,
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 12527 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 2):
I wonder what Argentina, Chile and Colombia will do now? They have to keep up with the Joneses...

Chile already have what they need. If anything, their next fighter will either be the Typhoon of the Eagle, but that will happen after 2015 at the earliest.

Colombia will probably stay with the Kfirs and hope that if things go down the shitter, the US will come out and defend them from everything.

Argentina will do nothing, other than probably buying used Mirage F-1 from the Jordan Air Force.


User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 12465 times:

BlueSky1976

Yes France will get 10 or 12 C390s.Sometimes i heard 10 , sometimes i heard 12 !


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12396 times:

Well, I suppose it's largely over now. . . just that is an accomplishment. This thing has been running off and on for the past 11 years.


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12370 times:

Congratulations to Embraer. Is this the first order for the C-390?

Apart from the french there is an enormous C130 replacement market. Many are very old..

Seems a good deal for all 4 parties. Dassault, Embraer and the French and Brazil airforces.





User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 12272 times:

Here's a new twist.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Quote:
Brazil is negotiating to buy 36 Dassault Rafales and France intends to join development of the Embraer KC-390 tanker/transport, and buy 10 to replace its C-130 Hercules. That's the gist of a statement from the Brazilian defense ministry on the occasion of French president Nicolas Sarkozy's visit to meet his Brazilian counterpart Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4669 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12218 times:

Glad to see this beautiful Aircraft find another home.


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12054 times:



Quote:
France intends to join development of the Embraer KC-390

What does that means ?
Joint venture with EADS ?
Only financing ?


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11913 times:

I will believe it when Brazilian pilots will be flying the rafales, not before.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11898 times:

The combination of 30 Rafales (with conformal fuel tanks, active scanned radars, stand off weapons and KC-390 tankers would result in a very much expanded strike capability for the Brazalians. Maybe a reaction on the Venezuela Flankers?

User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11791 times:
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Let's say that they both had pilots of equal skill, could a Brazilian Rafale, take a Venezuelan Flanker in a dog fight?

Thanks,



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11780 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
The combination of 30 Rafales (with conformal fuel tanks, active scanned radars, stand off weapons and KC-390 tankers would result in a very much expanded strike capability for the Brazalians. Maybe a reaction on the Venezuela Flankers?



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 13):
Let's say that they both had pilots of equal skill, could a Brazilian Rafale, take a Venezuelan Flanker in a dog fight?

Both very good questions. I would think the Rafale would have a better than even chance against the Flanker. That is because the KC-390 tankers could assure the Rafales would be at the optimum fighting weight and fuel load for both BVR engagements and dogfighting.

Does anyone know how the KC-390 matches up to the KC-130J? Where is Brazil buying the WARPs from? EU? UK? US?


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11693 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
The combination of 30 Rafales (with conformal fuel tanks, active scanned radars, stand off weapons

Who knows if the brazilian Rafales are going to come with the same equipment as the F.3?. I remember reading in several news article that the version offered to the brazilians its more cheap.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
Maybe a reaction on the Venezuela Flankers?

Not really. This competition has been going on for almost a decade if you include the first FX mess while the Flankers have been around 4 years at the most.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 13):
Let's say that they both had pilots of equal skill, could a Brazilian Rafale, take a Venezuelan Flanker in a dog fight?

Probably. We will find out when Brazil take their Rafales and Venezuela their Flankers to Cruzex.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Both very good questions. I would think the Rafale would have a better than even chance against the Flanker. That is because the KC-390 tankers could assure the Rafales would be at the optimum fighting weight and fuel load for both BVR engagements and dogfighting.

The other side has a tanker too, with more comming online in the future. The real advantage for the Brazilians lies on their AEW&C platforms.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 11666 times:



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 1):
So does it mean that France will get 12 C-390s?

The question is not if France will get KC 390 but if they will get them sooner then the A400M Big grin



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 928 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 11572 times:

Shades of the early 1900's A-B-C battleship wars...

User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11442 times:

According to the Brazilian MoD Nelson A. Jobim, no winner of the F-X2 has been selected.

Quote:
Given this new reality, the selection process of the project FX-2, led by Air Force Command, has not yet closed, will continue negotiations with the three participants, which will be elaborated and eventually redefined the proposals.

Nelson A. Jobim
Minister of State for Defense

https://www.defesa.gov.br/mostra_materia.php?ID_MATERIA=33409

More on this on Ares and DEW Line:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...049773-3354-480b-a3ea-29abe93f00bd

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...razil-backtracks-on-rafale-se.html

My feeling is still that the Rafale will be selected eventually...


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11182 times:



Quoting Acheron (Reply 15):
Who knows if the brazilian Rafales are going to come with the same equipment as the F.3?. I remember reading in several news article that the version offered to the brazilians its more cheap.

It will be F3 multi role standard allowing Exocet anti-ship missiles, the Reco NG reconnaissance pod and deliver e.g. the ASMP-A nuclear missile.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 11149 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 18):
According to the Brazilian MoD Nelson A. Jobim, no winner of the F-X2 has been selected.

That seems to be what the Brazilian AF is saying, despite what their president has publicly announced. Check out this story from a French magazine.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ion-still-open%2C-brazil-says.html

And the editorial comment.

Quote:
(EDITOR’S NOTE: French sources attribute the above announcement to Brazil’s legal obligation to complete the FX-2 fighter competition as originally planned. Simply cutting it short in favor of the Rafale would have made it liable to the other two competitors, Boeing and Saab.
However, local media report that the statement was demanded by air force commander Gen. Juniti Saito who considers the announcement in favour of Rafale as premature, and who was supported by an emergency meeting of the air force high command.
Jobim’s statement reveals for the first time that France has promised to sell the Rafale to Brazil at a price that is “comparable” to what it is paying for its own aircraft. This sets the price at about 75 million euros per aircraft, as the 2009 French defense budget earmarks 4.5 billion euros for a multiyear order of 60 Rafales.
This is considerably lower than the 4.5-5 billion euro price mentioned by Sarkozy’s staff during the French president’s visit to Brasilia.
Finally, it is noteworthy that Jobim’s statement implies that the competitors will be able to lodge new, revised offers.
These new developments contradict Monday’s formal announcement in favor of Rafale by Brazilian President Luis Ignacio Lula da Silva, and by Foreign Minister Celso Amorim, and suggest a power struggle regarding this hotly-disputed contract.
Thus, the real question today is what extraordinarily powerful argument the air force chief, Gen. Saito, used to persuade the defense minister to contradict, publicly and in writing, the president and foreign minister.)




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4881 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11103 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
Jobim’s statement reveals for the first time that France has promised to sell the Rafale to Brazil at a price that is “comparable” to what it is paying for its own aircraft. This sets the price at about 75 million euros per aircraft, as the 2009 French defense budget earmarks 4.5 billion euros for a multiyear order of 60 Rafales.
This is considerably lower than the 4.5-5 billion euro price mentioned by Sarkozy’s staff during the French president’s visit to Brasilia.

This exposes once more the disconnect among the French entities, which cost them the Morocco deal last time around.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
Finally, it is noteworthy that Jobim’s statement implies that the competitors will be able to lodge new, revised offers.

If true, expect the two other remaining bidders to pounce on this immediately.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 18):
My feeling is still that the Rafale will be selected eventually...

As I've mentioned in the other thread, the Brazilians might just be baiting. A little more suspense before they can bring out the "bubbly".  champagne 



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 11051 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 21):
As I've mentioned in the other thread, the Brazilians might just be baiting. A little more suspense before they can bring out the "bubbly". champagne

Reading different blogs, newspapers and columnists, I'm thrown from believing in Rafale to dismissing them, and back again. Only time will tell I guess. Below are some sources and some of my personal views on this saga.

http://colunistas.ig.com.br/luisnass...vo-o-acordo-militar-brasil-franca/

Quote:
In October, Eurofighter, Lockheed and Sukhoi were eliminated. The first, because it is a consortium of several European countries, which hamper the transfer of technology. The Lockheed because there is no more precise information about the control that had the technology. And Sukhoi not to accept speaking in technology transfer.

Looks like issues with ToT was the eliminating factor in the first down selection. I don't think it take Einstein to figure out that the possibility of ToT will be a major reason for the final selection.

Brazilian views on French proposal:

Quote:
In the first conversation they had, Lula warned Mr Sarkozy of the problems of price and TOT. In addition, the French had not established a market for the sale of Brazilian Rafales. It did not matter only buy technology, but have an environment for the marketing of the product.



Quote:
In conversation, Sarkozy said he would ensure Brazil needs. Dassault is a private company, but of which 43% is owned by the state EDS - which, however, does not participate in management. Still, Sarkozy gave his word. He said that Dassault fit to make offer competitive and reasonable, and consistent with the values practiced by Dassault for the French armed forces.

On the Brazilian side, there were doubts about these values. And in them were built some kind of cross-subsidy from the French government to the company? It was then decided that these values would be the ceiling for the talks.



Quote:
Regarding the cost of maintenance, there were doubts about the cost of flight-hours presented by the French. Ratings reported by Saito indicated that, for a period of 30 years (period of obsolescence), the calculation of the FAB had reached very high value applications.

The last concern regarding cost per flight hour was also brought up here:

http://defesabrasil.com/site/noticia...ia-da-avaliacao-tecnica-da-fab.php

Quote:
The operational cost of the Rafale was estimated at $16,000, while the American F-18, Boeing would cost $10,000 and the Swedish Gripen, Saab's U.S. $ 4,500.

I saw another source quoting the FAB, saying they favored the Gripen followed by SH and Rafale. Can't find it right now though...

If I were to believe these sources I'd say that the Rafale was behind on a operational level. The answer to this by Sarkozi was more, more and even more ToT, and a dozen KC-390 as the frosting on the 'ToT cake'. I think it might work since it doesn't seem like price and operational costs will be a deciding factor given the current Brazilian spendings on defence material.

ToT elimitated the EF, F-16 and Su-35, and it will probably give the contract to Rafale.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10901 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):
It will be F3 multi role standard allowing Exocet anti-ship missiles, the Reco NG reconnaissance pod and deliver e.g. the ASMP-A nuclear missile.

I very much doubt that any FAB Rafale's will have provision for the AMSP. Which would not be sold to them in the first place.

However, Dassault/France has history here, the FAB was a Mirage III operator, in the past Embraer types have found their way into French military service.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10883 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 16):
The question is not if France will get KC 390 but if they will get them sooner then the A400M

Oops...  duck   duck   duck   duck   duck 


25 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Not so fast. From D-Ae..... Rival bidders pull out all stops for Brazil fighter jet deal And pounce, Boeing did..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com
26 TGIF : From what I understand (perhaps from French biased and anti Gripen sources) is that it doesn't matter what the US agrees to do now. Whenever US feels
27 Post contains links Rheinwaldner : C390 for the US? Would those be more welcome than KC-30's? The US seem a little touchy when it comes to buying foreign military aircrafts. But maybe
28 Keesje : Political pressure is building apparently..
29 Johns624 : BS. In times of war, the satellites can stop sending the more accurate signals but you cannot remotely change the accuracy of a unit.
30 TGIF : I know how the GPS system works... The error wasn't in the signal, it was in the delivered units.
31 Johns624 : From your original post, you're implying that the US got angry at Brazil and with remote control caused the GPS units not to work correctly...sorry,
32 Post contains links TGIF : I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, that was not the intention. Let me rephrase: Brazil were taking delivery of GPS equipment. The specified er
33 Post contains links Lumberton : Apparently Lula spoke too soon. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Brazil...etter-apf-1104854049.html?x=0&.v=2 Does this embarrass Sarko or what?
34 Acheron : Not really. Lula is probably being polite with SAAB and Boeing to avoid legal battles in the future by letting the contest end legally.
35 SAS A340 : According to Swedish news,SAAB is preparing to add some sugar to the Brazilians....gues Boeing do the same. All this will lead to is to sell perhaps
36 PPVRA : One of the requests was a lower price. I think this will happen.
37 Post contains links Keesje : I expect other (european) airforces buying C-390. It seems an affordable modern, silent multi role aircraft. The C-130J seems the major competitor but
38 Post contains links DEVILFISH : A little backgrounder for the mixup..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-brazil-is-waffling-on-rafale.html Quote: "One of the reasons cited fo
39 Post contains images Keesje : As said a substantial fleet of Rafales / modern weapons + a substantial KC390 tanker fleet will boost regional offensive capability of the Brazilian a
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