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EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai  
User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 17785 times:

Together with the airshow, Dubai also hosted a major multinational exercise involving fighter assets from four nations.
So their we finally have it the Rafale , the Eurofighter and the Raptor go up against each other together with other interesting fighters like the most modern F16's , Arabian F15's and possibly some M2000's.

Sure most people here would give an arm and a leg to know the specifics on this one.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oon-make-surprise-appearances.html

Quote:
So with new orders for the Typhoon and F-22 not on the table in the UAE this week, why are they both here?

The answer is that not only has the UAE attracted the cream of the global aerospace industry to the Middle East this week, but it is also playing host to a major multinational exercise involving fighter assets from four nations.

In addition to the RAF and the USAF, the UAE air force is also exercising with military aircraft from France and Pakistan, with the manoeuvres being conducted from Al Dhafra, near Abu Dhabi.

The Typhoon on show is drawn from the RAF's 3 Sqn, based at Coningsby, Lincolnshire. The service has sent six of its aircraft to participate in the advanced tactical leadership course in the UAE. The unit also recently sent four aircraft to the Falkland Islands to begin providing air defence duties for the territory.

and, from the horses mouth , the new French AdlA chief, Jean-Paul Paloméros;
http://defensenews.com/blogs/dubai-a...nch-air-chief-jean-paul-palomeros/

Quote:
Q: Six Eurofighter Typhoons and six F-22s took part in the UAE military exercise. Did the Rafale take part?

A: Six Rafales took part in the exercise.




[edit post]
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 17750 times:

I wonder why this British test pilot & former Red Arrow pilot thinks the Rafale is better not only air to ground.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...assault-rafale-rampant-rafale.html


User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 17704 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
I wonder why this British test pilot & former Red Arrow pilot thinks the Rafale is better not only air to ground.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

I fail to see how he could know, not having flown the EF, F22 or anything else that could be considered state of the art fighters like the AESA equiped F-16's, SuperHornets or latest versions of the Flanker and Fulcrum.



[edit post]
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 17679 times:



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
not having flown the EF

Are you sure?


User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 17663 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
not having flown the EF

Are you sure?

Not 100% no, but I was lead to believe that apart from the Harrier , Tornado and M2000 , mr Collins was no longer involved in flying fast jets, certainly not the latest models.

If I'm wrong, which is very well possible, than it obviously indeed would reflect very positively on the Rafale vs the Typhoon.



[edit post]
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 17561 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
not having flown the EF

Are you sure?

This has been widely discussed over the internet and I have yet to see a source claiming he has flown any other of the latest high end fighters.


I'm very skeptical to the last sentence in his report: "If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

So in a hypothetical A2A combat against a F-22, he'd rather sit in a Rafale than an other F-22? No hard feelings about the Rafale, but it's not a 5th gen aircraft.

Quote:
The Typhoon on show is drawn from the RAF's 3 Sqn, based at Coningsby, Lincolnshire. The service has sent six of its aircraft to participate in the advanced tactical leadership course in the UAE.

What type of interactions between the three fighters might one see during a "advanced tactical leadership course"? Flying side by side or against each other?


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 17496 times:

I still find the fact that Obama canceled the F-22 to be a stupid idea. I understand he want's to keep his campaign promises but he made that promise with little to no information about the project.

User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1332 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17363 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 5):
What type of interactions between the three fighters might one see during a "advanced tactical leadership course"?

Some advanced level de-briefing, involving much gesturing and flapping of arms, coupled with inhalation of vast amounts of liquid courage. They might also go out and commit aviation inbetween bar rallying, but that's really just a side effect  Wink



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2741 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17334 times:

I'm not being biased at ALL. But seriously give me the F-22 or EF2000 anyday.


View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineKukkudrill From Malta, joined Dec 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 17022 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 5):
I'm very skeptical to the last sentence in his report: "If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

So in a hypothetical A2A combat against a F-22, he'd rather sit in a Rafale than an other F-22? No hard feelings about the Rafale, but it's not a 5th gen aircraft.

As a general rule, when you write an article on the basis of special access - be it a free stay in a hotel, a test drive of a new car etc. - you don't then trash your benefactors. Let alone if you get access to the controls of a high-performance jet fighter. Nothing to do with the qualities of the Rafale - it's just a widespread practice in the media.



Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 16981 times:



Quoting KPDX (Reply 8):
I'm not being biased at ALL. But seriously give me the F-22 or EF2000 anyday.

Contradition Internio

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 4):
but I was lead to believe that apart from the Harrier , Tornado and M2000 , mr Collins was no longer involved in flying fast jets, certainly not the latest models.

He also flew recently KAI T-50, Aeromachi M311 & M-346's , PC21, Falcon 7X, Piaggo Avanti. Thats published. I cannot find an article on the EF..


User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 16906 times:



Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
Some advanced level de-briefing, involving much gesturing and flapping of arms, coupled with inhalation of vast amounts of liquid courage. They might also go out and commit aviation inbetween bar rallying, but that's really just a side effect

I had a feeling this story had a kind of tabloid touch to it, if you know what I mean. The publisher want the reader to believe some advanced areal acrobatic combat is taking place, when in real life it's more about boring meetings and showing each other power points.  Smile

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 9):
As a general rule, when you write an article on the basis of special access - be it a free stay in a hotel, a test drive of a new car etc. - you don't then trash your benefactors. Let alone if you get access to the controls of a high-performance jet fighter. Nothing to do with the qualities of the Rafale - it's just a widespread practice in the media.

It wasn't the overall positiveness about the Rafale I opposed to. I fully understand and agree to the 'general rule'. It was his final statement I found a bit too much. I can think of several analogies with hotels or cars where this would apply as well. A drag racer might be fantastic to drive in a straight line, but put it up against a nascar on an oval circut... you get the point  Smile


User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2741 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16815 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
Contradition Internio

Huh? Big grin

If what you meant was contadicting, I was meaning the F-22 or EF2000 over the Rafale anyday.  Wink



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 16809 times:



Quoting KPDX (Reply 12):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
Contradition Internio

Huh?

If what you meant was contadicting, I was meaning the F-22 or EF2000 over the Rafale anyday.

If you are not baised at all, why would you prefer the EF or F22 over the Rafale anyday?


User currently offlineFerrypilot From New Zealand, joined Sep 2006, 897 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 16805 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 5):
I'm very skeptical to the last sentence in his report: "If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

Perhaps he's seen stuff like this and thinks the F-22 mght not be all it's cracked up to be - Quote is from Wikipedia:-

While attempting its first overseas deployment to the Kadena Air Base in Okinawa, Japan, on 11 February 2007, a group of six Raptors flying from Hickam AFB, Hawaii experienced multiple computer crashes coincident with their crossing of the 180th meridian of longitude (the International Date Line). The computer failures included at least navigation (completely lost) and communication. The fighters were able to return to Hawaii by following their tankers in good weather. The error was fixed within 48 hours and the F-22s continued their journey to Kadena.

It's a joke! ...Good job Jimmy Doolittle didn't have 5th generation machines on his way to Japan in 1942.  duck 


User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1595 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16657 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 13):
If you are not baised at all, why would you prefer the EF or F22 over the Rafale anyday?

If i may answer that: Could it be that the Rafale has worse acceleration, worse climbing rate, worse thrust to weight ratio, worse avionics and sensors, lower service ceiling, worse AA weapons, worse turn rates and worse RCS??

Give it up, we all know you deny any facts when it comes to the Rafale. Its admirable how you defend it, maybe Dassault should hire you as publicity expert.  Yeah sure



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16580 times:



Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
If i may answer that: Could it be that the Rafale has worse acceleration, worse climbing rate, worse thrust to weight ratio, worse avionics and sensors, lower service ceiling, worse AA weapons, worse turn rates and worse RCS??

Compared to the EF?

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
Give it up, we all know you deny any facts when it comes to the Rafale. Its admirable how you defend it, maybe Dassault should hire you as publicity expert.

No, its an ex Red Arrows British test pilot that flew it, that's the issue  Wink

Anyway who knows.. http://blogs.frontierindia.net/index...9/rafale-evaluation-in-switzerland


User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 16376 times:

Oh great, another one of these threads... It reminds me of the Youtube video comments under any video showing any of these aircrafts.

Despite the pressing need for many to gauge these aircrafts up against another, for various reasons, but mainly missplaced national pride, the reality of it is that all 3 aircrafts were designed to fulfill different sets of specifications.

The F-22 was designed to be a superlative air to air superiority fighter integrating all the latest stealth technology, and with a design budget, purchasing and operating price to match, and it is.

The EF-2000 was designed to answer several European air forces' need for a new generation fighter with excellent air-air capability as well as the ability to deliver air-ground strikes, and it does.

The Rafale was designed specifically to answer the French Air Force's need for a truly versatile military aircraft that would be as competent in air defence as it is in an air-ground attack mode, reconnaissance missions, nuclear deterrence, etc..., all the while being available as a carrier based version as well. And it is.

After all, one of the main reasons France went its own way for its latest generation fighter was because the capability of the originally proposed Eurofighter differed from the country's need.
Seeing that all these aicrafts were designed to fulfill different missions, I'd rather leave the 'which is best' debate to overeager 13 year olds on youtube...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 16357 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 17):
Seeing that all these aicrafts were designed to fulfill different missions, I'd rather leave the 'which is best' debate to overeager 13 year olds on youtube...

So Peter Collins is the new 'overeager 13 year old' and Flightglobal is the new Youtube?  Wink


User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 16342 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 17):
Oh great, another one of these threads... It reminds me of the Youtube video comments under any video showing any of these aircrafts.

Despite the pressing need for many to gauge these aircrafts up against another, for various reasons, but mainly missplaced national pride, the reality of it is that all 3 aircrafts were designed to fulfill different sets of specifications.

The F-22 was designed to be a superlative air to air superiority fighter integrating all the latest stealth technology, and with a design budget, purchasing and operating price to match, and it is.

The EF-2000 was designed to answer several European air forces' need for a new generation fighter with excellent air-air capability as well as the ability to deliver air-ground strikes, and it does.

The Rafale was designed specifically to answer the French Air Force's need for a truly versatile military aircraft that would be as competent in air defence as it is in an air-ground attack mode, reconnaissance missions, nuclear deterrence, etc..., all the while being available as a carrier based version as well. And it is.

After all, one of the main reasons France went its own way for its latest generation fighter was because the capability of the originally proposed Eurofighter differed from the country's need.
Seeing that all these aicrafts were designed to fulfill different missions, I'd rather leave the 'which is best' debate to overeager 13 year olds on youtube...



Quoting TGIF (Reply 18):
So Peter Collins is the new 'overeager 13 year old' and Flightglobal is the new Youtube?

I am not trying to put words in his mouth nor do I know even who peter collins is but he is correct all 3 aircraft were designed with different missions in mind all 3 seem to be able to do their mission really well but to say the rafale is the better of the 3 is rediculous at best and sounds like a sales pitch knowing that it would be in drect comption with at least the euro fighter for future mideast contracts, I am taking the F-22 out of it for several reasons the biggest is that once the US is done buying there wont be any more made at least in the near future anyway. I didnt take it he was refering to Mr collins as a 13 year but sounded like he was one making comments on youtube about a product in a play sales pitch.


User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16290 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 18):
So Peter Collins is the new 'overeager 13 year old' and Flightglobal is the new Youtube?

Well, I don't know how his words somehow ended up on this thread (there is another thread about his article), but as said above, his views on the subject were certainly influenced by many factors, including the fact that he might be a tad out of touch with the current generation of fighters, and that Dassault would probably not have appreciated him saying anything else about the aircraft after giving him a free ride.

I agree with you that the factuality of his statement is certainly questionable. That being said, you will notice that my post had nothing to do with his article.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 19):
well but to say the rafale is the better of the 3 is rediculous at best and sounds like a sales pitch

It probably was, in a way.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 16269 times:

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 20):
Well, I don't know how his words somehow ended up on this thread (there is another thread about his article), but as said above, his views on the subject were certainly influenced by many factors, including the fact that he might be a tad out of touch with the current generation of fighters, and that Dassault would probably not have appreciated him saying anything else about the aircraft after giving him a free ride.

Keejse raised the question why Collins preferred the Rafale in other roles than A2G, and it derailed from there. I fully agree that Dassault wouldn't have been very pleased if the article didn't have a positive tone regarding the Rafale.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 20):

I agree with you that the factuality of his statement is certainly questionable. That being said, you will notice that my post had nothing to do with his article.

Yes, I noted that and I fully agree on your whole argument in your original post. The three fighters were designed based on three different specifications and that’s why a can't understand his last statement in the article. None of the fighters are the best in every role. Therefore, I couldn't resist making the link between an 'overeager 13 year old' and Peter Collins.  

BTW, are there no spotters in UAE able to get all three fighters in one shot??

[Edited 2009-11-19 05:04:21]

User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 16260 times:

Was not the Rafale optimized for the air-to-ground role and the EF optimized for the air-to-air role. Rafale does a good job in air-to-air and EF does a good job in air-to-ground but it's important to remember what each airplane is optimized for when conducting comparisons. With that said, it makes sense to compare the EF with the F-22A, regarding air-to-air, but leave the Rafale out because air-to-air is pretty much a secondary role for it, at least in service with the French Air Force.


Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 16085 times:



Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
Some advanced level de-briefing, involving much gesturing and flapping of arms, coupled with inhalation of vast amounts of liquid courage. They might also go out and commit aviation inbetween bar rallying, but that's really just a side effect

Unfortunately it seems you were correct revealing the boring truth.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...xb09-sheikh-rattles-aermacchi.html

Quote:
The F-22s did not participate in ATLC. They were planned in as part of the exercise, then shortly beforehand they were withdrawn. Six jets were still deployed to Al Dhafra but they did not come out to play with the other boys and girls (OK, there were no girls). The USAF representatives at the show refused to acknowledge the aircrafts' presence or explain what they were doing in the UAE.

Why bring six fighters half way around the world and then let them sit on the tarmac? De-briefings, gesturing and flapping of arms as well as beer drinking is easily done with out the $200 fighters.

Could there be technical difficulties? Surly the F-22 have seen hot weather while flying around at Nellis. I had 41°C (106°F) when I visited Vegas this summer (although I didn't spot any Raptors  Sad )


User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3745 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 16075 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 22):
With that said, it makes sense to compare the EF with the F-22A, regarding air-to-air, but leave the Rafale out because air-to-air is pretty much a secondary role for it, at least in service with the French Air Force.

Not entirely true. The F-22 and EF-2000 represent 2 different levels of air superiority. Their capability isn't the same, neither is their development budget.

Wiki's article on the Typhoon has some interesting quotes on the subject from a USAF General who is one of the few persons who flew both types. (towards the end of the article)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

As for the Rafale, it is true that it was designed with more compromises in mind than the Eurofighter. That being said, it is an aircraft that must still be able to roughly measure up to the EF in terms of Air-Air missions. It is not a secondary role for it, rather one of the many it has to fulfill adequately.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
25 Post contains images Keesje : I think in the nineties the french thought air to ground / long complex missions would become more important. The Rafale was a national program so cou
26 Post contains links and images Ferrypilot : Apparently Peter Collins flew Harriers in the Falklands War and was also a Red Arrows pilot. Furthermore when a British military pilot refers to hims
27 Flagon : Being french living in the UK, I've always been very surprised when I read in all the magazines that the Rafale was optimized for air to ground role,
28 AutoThrust : It doesn't. I know this is hard to understand that for some people. The Rafale does not even feature super cruise, similar thrust weight ratio(to nei
29 Ferrypilot : Where would you super cruise to in Switzerland? ...or are you thinking the Swiss Air Force would like to super cruise around in circles?
30 TGIF : What has that to do with anything? This thread isn't about the Swiss F-5 replacement, there's another one for that... and since when are Switzerland
31 Flagon : This has been said many times I think since the Rafale lost the competition in Singapore, I admit I don't realy understand this statement which seems
32 Zeke : Pete graduated from ETPS in the late 80s about a year after he ejected from the Red Arrows Hawk at RAF Scampton. He also worked on the JSF when he wa
33 ArniePie : Flagon, I think something went wrong with the quoting function. I didn't comment on the Rafale and supercruise. no harm done
34 Post contains links AutoThrust : The Typhoon can do all those things faster. The super cruise ability of the Rafale in AA config. is marginal. From idle to 13000 meter at 1,5mach the
35 Flagon : Cheers mate, sorry about that... Autothrust, I like to think that we can have this conversation without getting too emotional. See my comments below:
36 Tommytoyz : Th page and story you linked to does not mention the Rafale in any way.......FYI
37 Spudh : I was always of the belief the the EF had a much better T/W ratio than Rafale but doing the maths its not as clear cut. Taking empty weights of 9,500
38 Flagon : It is worth noticing that with similar T/W ratios and neglecting aerodynamic forces (which is obviously not a very valid assumption...) the lighter a
39 Acheron : I think the problem might be AutoThrust anti-Rafale bias, more than a mathematical problem.
40 Post contains images Keesje : I think there are many things the Typhoon can do that the Rafale can't. The other way around : serious air to ground capabilities & integrted 2 man lo
41 Flagon : That's for sure, main shortfall of the Rafale to me being the relatively limited detection range of its radar. Some people say this is not so much of
42 Francoflier : I think that would be a waste of taxpayer's money. It would be expensive, complex, and serve a limited role. The future of air combat will probably b
43 Areopagus : It looks more like an FB-23, which Northrop Grumman was shopping around a few years ago.
44 Post contains links Arthuro75 : Three sources about the rafale very good performance in the UAE : [QUOTE]The first account reports made this morning by a French Rafale pilot reported
45 Post contains links Arthuro75 : Half of the prestigious Hunting 01,007 Squadron Provence has made the trip to the United Arab Emirates during the year DPAC This exercise brings toget
46 TGIF : I'm afraid something has happened to the last two links. They're not working for me.
47 Post contains links Rheinwaldner : Remarkable results. How could they be explained (vs. Typhoon)? http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-mon...nt-pas-affrontes-aux/1648/0/402465 http://blog.f
48 NorCal : Can you summarize the details in English please?
49 NoUFO : From what I understand (I only read the first report, and my French could stand some practice), the F-22 dit not really battle against Typhoons and R
50 Wingman : There is apparently a highly classified summary of the mock fights circulating the Pentagon showing that the F22 pilots found the results "orgasmic".
51 Post contains links Arthuro75 : There is also an official report given at a press conference the 17/12/2009 at 11am nammely by Lt. Colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commander of the squa
52 NoUFO : Hence I say that those comparisons and "secret files" don't hold any water unless we have seen them and know the specific tactics involved or even im
53 Evomutant : So. The Rafale's were "degraded versions". The F-22 didn't want to get close enough to compromise it signature. And no doubt the Typhoon was in a some
54 WorldFlight : F-22A AGAINST RAFALE: UNTOUCHABLE RAPTOR: Although French aviators showed off a great deal about the "beatings" inflicted by their Rafales on British
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