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Northrop May To Drop Out Of Tanker Competition  
User currently offlineSeefivein From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20228 times:

Not Good for fairness

Northrop may to drop out of tanker competition

By JOSHUA FREED (AP) – 29 minutes ago

Defense company Northrop Grumman says it will drop out of the running for a major Air Force tanker project valued at $35 billion unless the government changes its request for bids.


[Edited 2009-12-03 14:50:20 by srbmod]

309 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20216 times:

Quoting Seefivein (Thread starter):
Not Good for fairness

Why is not "not good for fairness"? They can bid if they want. IF they elect not to bid, that is their decision (well, its really airbus' but we must keep up appearances here).

If they don't bid, I fully expect them to sue in U.S. District Court for something.

However, IMO the most likely outcome is that DOD runs after them and kisses their @$$ to stay in--again.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20195 times:

"To ask people to bid fixed prices on things that may not materialize until 18 years in the future is simply absurd," he said. He said Boeing officials saw Northrop's letter as "some sort of a maneuver," but they shared the concerns about the amount of risk the contractors were expected to carry.

It's just as absurd for taxpayers to take on this risk. No airline or business would do it. When they say this stuff, you can tell with almost 100% certainty that the bid prices are not realistic and will be exceeded. How can they sell fleets of aircraft to well run airlines years out at a fixed price, but not to the taxpayer?

User currently offlineSeefivein From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20191 times:

I do not see that they (Boeing) want a fair bid - the link below from Seattle mentions boeing went to court to keep a maintenance contact for plane that they are suppose to bidding on to replace.

Does this imply that Boeing will not have a Tanker ready for service if they end up with the contract.


User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20187 times:
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Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 2):
How can they sell fleets of aircraft to well run airlines years out at a fixed price, but not to the taxpayer?

1. no airline is buying stuff out to 18 years
2. the military always change specs

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20164 times:

I think the rest of the world will think the specs were tuned towards the 767 during the last 18 months, under massive political pressure.

The trick was avoiding rewarding the superior capabilities the A330 offers over the 767.

Protectionism. That is how the world will probably judge the process.

The 767 / Boeing badly needed a boost from above.

The A330 will sell anyway. Airbus will have to look for a new A330F conversion / FAL location.

[Edited 2009-12-01 15:39:28 by keesje]

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20157 times:

Quoting Seefivein (Reply 3):
I do not see that they (Boeing) want a fair bid


Why would Boeing want a fair bid? It is the U.S. Air Force that is the customer.  Yeah sure

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 20071 times:

NG/EADS ploy may have worked the last time, but it could backfire now.

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12938 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 20075 times:

The current articles are clearer: NG is NOT going to bid if the RFP doesn't change significantly, and the DoD is saying that's not going to happen!


Northrop Grumman told the Pentagon Dec. 1 it will not bid for the USAF replacement aerial tanker under the existing request for proposals (RFP).

The decision - reminiscent of an earlier maneuver in the tanker saga - apparently still could be reversed if the Air Force RFP was "substantially" changed, according to comments made in a letter from Northrop President and COO Wes Bush to the top defense acquisition official, USAF secretary and deputy defense secretary.

Defense leaders let it be known recently that changes to the source-selection plan for the U.S. Air Force's $35 billion KC-X program were not likely to be substantial. Northrop executives have complained that the 373 pass/fail requirements outlined for qualification in the competition equally weigh less important items -- such as water flow in sinks and toilets -- with critical capabilities -- such as fuel offload rates.

Ref: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...Tanker%20Bid%20Under%20Draft%20RFP


Northrop President and Chief Operating Officer Wes Bush told the Pentagon's chief weapons buyer on Tuesday that Northrop would not submit a bid in the competition unless the Defense Department significantly changed the terms.

Bush told Ashton Carter, defense undersecretary for acquisition, technology and logistics, in a letter dated Dec. 1 that Northrop remained concerned that the current terms showed a preference for an aircraft smaller than the A330-based tanker it had offered previously with Airbus parent EADS.

As written, the terms also imposed a structure that "places contractual and financial burdens on the company that we simply cannot accept," Bush said.

He said the Pentagon had told Northrop it did not plan to issue a second draft, and its responses to Northrop's questions did not appear responsive.

"As a result, I must regrettably inform you that, absent a responsive set of changes in the final RFP, Northrop Grumman has determined that it cannot submit a bid to the department for the KC-X program," he said in the letter, which was released by the company.

The Defense Department said it regretted the move and hoped Northrop and EADS would return to the process when the final terms were announced.

Ref: http://www.forbes.com/feeds/reuters/...2-01T224711Z_01_N01513369_RTRIDST_

NG/EADS has already kicked the toys out of the tram once, so it's no big surprise to see them do it again.

Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 20022 times:

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 4):
1. no airline is buying stuff out to 18 years
2. the military always change specs

The initial order is for only 80 tankers. At 12-15 tankers per year as planned, that's only a span of 5-7 years. Some commercial orders are over longer periods than that and some involve more frames, like Ryan Air's order for 200 B737s. EK's order for 53 A380s also comes to mind, etc....I'm sure there are many examples. How about Boeing's 787 sales of over 800 frames and Airbus' sale of 500 A350s.

They can do that but not sell 80 to the taxpayer at fixed costs? There is only one reason I can think of to complain....they will under bid and pass on the true costs to taxpayers. I'm talking about Boeing here too. Both are just as guilty and it's time to represent the true costs of these programs to the Congress so they can make an informed decision and not be fooled into something and then stab taxpayers in the back later.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 19916 times:

Interesting response by DOD. I wonder what they're really thinking? Go ahead, prove me wrong and tell airbus...I mean Northrop Grumman...to take a long walk off a short pier!

In a written statement, the Defense Department said it regretted "that Northrop-Grumman and Airbus have taken themselves out of the tanker competition and hope they will return" when the request for proposal is issued, which it expects in January. Northrop's partner, Airbus, is owned by Paris-based European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co.

The Defense Department said both companies suggested changes to its request for proposal that would favor their own planes.

"Both companies can make a good tanker. The department wants competition but cannot compel the two airplane makers to compete," the statement said.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 7627 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 19901 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
The trick was avoiding rewarding the superior capabilities the A330 offers over the 767.

Protectionism. That is how the world will probably judge the process.

Ok, lets see if I got this right.
1. Air Force gives Boeing an illegal lease for 100 tankers, US Congress jumps in, deal is cancelled, Boeing officials go to jail. Protectionism of the highest order.
2. Air Force puts out an RFP, NG / Airbus protest that the RFP favours Boeing's smaller tanker and does not favour their larger a/c, Air Force changes the RFP to favour the larger a/c. Once again protectionism of the highest order, now for the other side of the pond.
3. NG/ Airbus wins the RFP, but the GAO finds that the Air Force violated the rules of its own competition / RFP rules to give the victory to NG / Airbus, protectionism once again to Airbus.
4. New RFP is done, NG / Airbus now starts again at 2 above. Its a circle.

When NG / Airbus won the competition their supporters claimed that the Air Force did a professional jobs and that they were not being protectionist in spite of political pressure. The Air Force wants the NG/Airbus tanker, if they did not they would have followed the rules of their RFP and let the chips fall where they may, instead they put in a fix. The DOD removed then put them back in charge without any personnel adjustment - as fas as I read - so why would the Air Force brass now do a 180 against their favoured vendor, if we claim political pressure then we are disclaiming their proffesionalism which we praised when NG / Airbus won. Just does not sound right.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
The A330 will sell anyway. Airbus will have to look for a new A330F conversion / FAL location.

I thought the A330F was already offered, had customers and was going to be built in France, the US line would be additional, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think customers were told that the product would be delayed if the US did not select an Airbus tanker.

The harsh reality is that they are dissimilar a/c in terms of size, the US unlike any other military already has huge cargo capacity, so the only advantage the larger a/c really has that is of value is the amount of fuel to offload, cargo numbers are less relevant. I'll repeat what I said in another thread, this project should not be put out to bid since there are no off the shelf a/c of similar size by each vendor, and the size will matter as the facilities have to be upgraded for one and not for the other.

The 767 appeared before the A330, the A330 "killed" the 767 market by upsizing and offering more range and payload, that principle has to carry over to the military competition as well, whether it is just as important remains to be seen.

User currently offlineSkysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1137 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 19871 times:

So why doesn't the US Government admit that they want a Boeing product and just get it over with? If the NG/Airbus product was ever even considered then there'd be hell to pay from the 'protectionist' people! Hell, whilst we're at it lets put tariffs on Canadian lumber because it hurts the american lumber industry (going against what NAFTA stands for), but wait....we'll still take all the electricity you can send us! The USAF should be free to buy whatever they feel is the right equipment for the mission, it's when the government gets involved that things get inefficient! It's a disgrace and a complete double standard...remember when a certain country objected to the war in (insert here) and all of a sudden french fries became 'freedom fries'?!?! Puhhhleasse! Buy the best investment....it might spur more innovation in the competition instead of buying an inferior product. Industry needs competition otherwise advances are never made and we all end up with garbage.



ps....b4 u flame me, my flag flies the UK which is where i'm from, but i'm living in Canada and i fully support A n B......i don't support Governemnt BS!

In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4881 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 19863 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 11):
I thought the A330F was already offered, had customers and was going to be built in France

Isn't it done in Spain? I knew someone who will be serving on the A330 tanker, and he fully expected to be off to Spain this year on one of the early ones.

It's not a big drama if Northrop pulls out of the tanker competition. USAF will just have to deal with having only one vendor (and no competition).

[Edited 2009-12-01 19:51:10 by cpd]

User currently offlineMoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2401 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 19851 times:

Quoting Seefivein (Reply 3):
I do not see that they (Boeing) want a fair bid - the link below from Seattle mentions boeing went to court to keep a maintenance contact for plane that they are suppose to bidding on to replace.

Does this imply that Boeing will not have a Tanker ready for service if they end up with the contract.

No, that's not what the article says. Boeing went to court to keep a maintenance contract for aircraft that the USAF plans to operate for many more years. Regardless of which aircraft is selected in this current tanker program, they will not be replacing the entire KC-135 fleet. There will be many KC-135s in service for years to come.

KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 7627 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 19849 times:

Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 12):
Buy the best investment....it might spur more innovation in the competition instead of buying an inferior product. Industry needs competition otherwise advances are never made and we all end up with garbage.

I have begun to question the reality of this, is it really true? Japan has been building cars in the US for decades, yet all their designs are still Japanese, where are the US designers who learned under their Japanese brethren? Rather than continue to buy US made a/c the Europeans decided to create their own company to produce their own a/c, it worked on the civilian side and they are now on the way to doing it on the military side, I am certain that the result will be the same.
Do we really believe that by the US giving their largest military contract to essentially Airbus that somehow Boeing or NG will learn to design and build better a/c, heck NG is really just the middle man in this venture.

Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 12):
So why doesn't the US Government admit that they want a Boeing product and just get it over with?

As of right now the US govt. has been the peacemaker in this project, they stopped the Air Force from giving an illegal lease to Boeing and stopped the Air Force from violating their own rules to give the contract to NG / Airbus, if anything the US govt. should be commended for being impartial and letting the rules, regulations and laws take its course.

User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4881 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 19819 times:

Quoting Par13del (Reply 15):
Do we really believe that by the US giving their largest military contract to essentially Airbus that somehow Boeing or NG will learn to design and build better a/c, heck NG is really just the middle man in this venture.

However, the requirements should be written in a way that is impartial.

And by that, you don't write them in such a way that it discounts the advantages that one side may have - in order to make the playing field level. That's discrimination.

It would be like in an office, setting a policy that is equal for everyone, but still discriminatory or unfair to some people.

If one side has a product that better matches the specs, then so be it. But it shouldn't be because the specs have been rewritten to discount advantages that the other side might have. I would hope this would be about choosing the best product, rather than the most politically correct one.

It may well be that someone decides that it is all to difficult, and that the contract doesn't get awarded to anyone.

User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 19779 times:

Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 12):
So why doesn't the US Government admit that they want a Boeing product and just get it over with?

So they can lecture others regarding fair competition while being total hypocrites about it. Thus why I'm glad the F-18 has no chances of winning in Brazil

User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 19698 times:

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 2):
No airline or business would do it.

Rubbish, all long term commercial aircraft contracts are indexed, these clauses are from a real contract.



[...***...], the Base Price of the Aircraft is subject to revision up to
and including the Delivery Date, in accordance with the Seller Price
Revision Formula.

The formula is taken from published goverment indexes.



The Base Price of the ****** Aircraft is quoted in Clause ****** and of
the ****** Aircraft in clause ****** of the Agreement. Each Base Price is
subject to adjustment for changes in economic conditions as measured by
data obtained from the US Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics,
and in accordance with the provisions hereof.


The Base Price of the Aircraft has been established in accordance with the
average economic conditions prevailing in ******, ******, ******
and corresponding to a theoretical delivery in ******
as defined by [...***...] and [...***...] index values indicated

[...***...] and [...***...] index values indicated herein will not be
subject to any revision.


Labor Index: [...***...]

Material Index: [...***...]




5.1 Roundings

The [...***...] average and the [...***...] average will be computed to
the first decimal. If the next succeeding place is five (5) or more, the
preceding decimal place shall be raised to the next higher figure.

Each quotient shall be rounded to the nearest ten-thousandth (4 decimals).
If the next succeeding place is five (5) or more, the preceding decimal
place shall be raised to the next higher figure.

The final factor will be rounded to the nearest ten-thousandth
(4 decimals).

The final price will be rounded to the nearest whole number (0.5 or more
rounded to 1).

5.2 Substitution of Indexes for Aircraft Price Revision Formula


(i) the United States Department of Labor substantially revises the
methodology of calculation of the labor index [...***...] or
material index [...***...] as used in this Exhibit G, or

(ii) the United States Department of Labor discontinues, either
temporarily or permanently, such labor index [...***...] or
material index [...***...] index, or

(iii) the data samples used to calculate such labor index [...***...] or
material index [...***...] are substantially changed;

the Seller will select a substitute index for inclusion in the Seller
Price Revision Formula (the "Substitute Index").

The Substitute Index will reflect as closely as possible the actual
variance of the labor costs or of the material costs used in the
calculation of the original labor index [...***...] or material index
[...***...] as the case may be.

As a result of the selection of the Substitute Index, the Seller will make
an appropriate adjustment to the Seller Price Revision Formula to combine
the successive utilization of the original labor index [...***...] or
material index [...***...] (as the case may be) and of the Substitute

5.3 Final Index Values

The Index values as defined in Paragraph 4 above will be considered final
and no further adjustment to the basic prices as revised at delivery of
the applicable Aircraft will be made after delivery of the applicable
Aircraft for any subsequent changes in the published index values.

We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 19690 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 18):
Rubbish, all long term commercial aircraft contracts are indexed, these clauses are from a real contract.

No airline that would enter into a cost plus contract like NG and Boeing want the USAF to enter into with them. It's not rubbish.

User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 19683 times:

Zeke, I don't think you quite understand the distinction of what I'm talking about:

What NG and Boeing are complaining about is that the USAF wants them to take on cost over run risks, among other things. Why don't you quote the relevant part that NG and Boeing are complaining about? That would be in context to what I said.

No airline would enter into a contract where the airlines takes on the cost in the event of a cost over run. Show me one. You can't.

[Edited 2009-12-02 00:08:28 by tommytoyz]

User currently offlineCargotanker From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 164 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 19680 times:

Call me naive, but is there a chance this is not protectionist and simply a request for what the USAF wants?

Basically, something to replace the KC-135 that is...

Similar in size to the -135
Can do the -135 mission as well or slighlty better than the -135
Cheaper in terms of initial purchase price and long term costs
Better cargo capabilities than the -135, but extra capacity is more of a bonus than a necessity

In these categories the 767 is the better ( or good enough) selection. The extra size, capability, and cost of the A330 are a significant disadvantage when competing in a KC-135 replacement competition.

I'm not arguing that the 767 is the better tanker, but given the criteria and what the USAF wants, I think its the better tanker for this competition.

I think its great that the USAF is looking for a plane that is 'good enough' instead of something that has to be 'next generation/top of the line.' It saves us some money and gets us what we want.

User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 19657 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 18):
Rubbish, all long term commercial aircraft contracts are indexed, these clauses are from a real contract.

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 2):
t's just as absurd for taxpayers to take on this risk. No airline or business would do it. When they say this stuff, you can tell with almost 100% certainty that the bid prices are not realistic and will be exceeded. How can they sell fleets of aircraft to well run airlines years out at a fixed price, but not to the taxpayer?

Zeke, in the future, please quote me in context. No commercial airline would take on development and program cost over run risks. It's much more than taking on only index risks. I hope you understand the difference, as it's a distinction *with* a difference.

User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2287 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 19626 times:

Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 2):
"To ask people to bid fixed prices on things that may not materialize until 18 years in the future is simply absurd," he said. He said Boeing officials saw Northrop's letter as "some sort of a maneuver," but they shared the concerns about the amount of risk the contractors were expected to carry.

You don't know the feature for which the USAF demands fix prices. You assume its for aquisition but that is only your assumption. You can't take that for granted. Therefore your line of reasoning is problematic and likely doesn't hold water.

I won't even enter the discussion about those fix prices...because I don't know the feature for which the USAF demands fix prices too!

Someone who knows the RFP proposal very well may shed light on the fix price clauses, Zeke, TopBoom?

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 19578 times:

Alabama is mad.

"All Americans should be outraged that the Obama administration has corrupted the tanker selection process with a blatantly unfair competition," Riley said, in a statement.

Northrop and partner EADS planned to assemble their tanker in Mobile, Ala., should the Air Force select it over Boeing's offering for the $35 billion contest.

"All along, we’ve said the process should be fair and the needs of our warfighters must come first. That definitely isn’t happening," Riley said. "The question is why is this RFP so radically different than the one Northrop Grumman won last year?”

I think that last staement is a big question indeed.

For yrs the USAF communicated they want a multirole logistic platform, no more long lines of unused expesive platform gaining dust.

within a yr they re specified a platform with only tanker capability of just the known fifties KC135 / KC 767 platform with a new procudure to not rewards any additional capabilities unless the price is the same.

A dramatic turn around during a time Boeing really needs support. (IDS no fresh programs / 787 billions / 737 replacement / 777 / 747 replacement).

The US is the biggest weapons Exporter not importer. Hopefully the rest of the world is understanding & doesn't see this as a nationalistic fix.

25 EPA001 : Sadly enough this will happen. This whole process has become such a mess where the image decides a lot. If it will be Boeing, then it is a nationalis
26 Par13del : How is that possible and how is that real, there is discrimination in everything that is done, it is one of the reasons why folks the world over are
27 Post contains images EPA001 : That is a silly question of course. After the B787 will fly with airlines we can and should expect an increased performance over the A330, though not
28 Post contains images Lumberton :    Great remarks, but it won't move the nay sayers out of their comfort zone.[Edited 2009-12-02 04:11:56]
29 Autothrust : The 767 will be cheaper or better in long term costs? The A330 is much more advanced with more maintenance friendly systems and structures like FBW,
30 Revelation : The airframes are built on the A330 line in France and the militarization and testing is done in Spain. It's next to impossible to write a "fair" com
31 Zeke : I did not take you out of context, you claimed airlines were paying for aircraft at a fixed price. "How can they sell fleets of aircraft to well run
32 Acheron : 767 Backlog: Less than 60 planes. A330 Backlog: Over 350 planes.
33 Par13del : Where was Alabama a couple months ago when the RFP was first released, did they not read it and see the problems or were they waiting for NG to decid
34 Wingman : With any luck that 767 backlog number will grow to over 200 as the US applies the same level of protectionism that is practiced by France, Germany and
35 Post contains images EPA001 : Maybe this is the case for the US Air Force, I will not comment on that. But the "sillyness" was stated by me upon your original question; which was:
36 Par13del : The re-engine option is also on the table - at the tax payors level - because it is an ongoing project, the question is how many KC-135's will get th
37 KC135TopBoom : " target=_blank>http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/...7.asp Go back and read or review the history here. You will find the Pemco/AAII are the ones c
38 AirRyan : What a joke. NG is still peeved that the USAF debriefed Boeing and disclosed their pricing numbers, which in a re-bid puts them at a distinct pricing
39 Tommytoyz : I was not clear. My bad. Too much wine and fun with the lady.......... Of course the Commercial contracts call for indexed price adjustments, as do m
40 Par13del : Exactly how old is the 767 versus the 330, compared to current a/c they are both old, and since Boeing still does not use the superior flight stick,
41 Keesje : I think congress forced the Dod to change the spec & home state jobs / re election / campaign funding were more important then the war fighter.
42 Bhill : Sheesh...it's a TANKER for heavens sake...for carrying AIRPLANE GAS!!! As long as it can carry enough for the mission detailed to it, who cares how ne
43 EPA001 : The RFP might be written for the war-fighter, it better should be, and the previous one was. But as the representatives of state of Alabama already p
44 EPA001 : But it will be built by a US company (NG) under US control (>62% will be US content). EADS will deliver the baseline platform and the boom, both to b
45 Par13del : Boeing may be trying to take the Airbus line on this one when recommending the 767, recall Airbus comment with the composite 787 a/c. Well Boeing is
46 Bennett123 : It strikes me as weird that people want to replace the KC135 with another KC135. Firstly, because neither the KC767 or KC330 has 4 engines and secondl
47 Par13del : I would like all economic options on the table, this is an economic situation, they can buy new a/c now, or they can buy them later, if one postpones
48 Revelation : Actually, many of us want re-engined KC135s! As per the above, it just hauls gas around for other planes to use. I'd rather invest in the pointy end
49 Moose135 : They will be brand new - Boeing isn't going to take old airliners and give them a freshening up and turn them into tankers, they will be new build ai
50 Post contains links Lumberton : No permanent link, so I'm quoting this blurb in full. http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Pages/default.aspx I still feel that DOD will cave and change t
51 Revelation : Interestingly enough we know the thing that ends up limiting the life of the KC-135 and it's corrosion, and what are we thinking of replacing them wi
52 Par13del : Composite may be the way of the future but as of right now, it is new on a large scale basis - A380, B787, A350 - that the OEM's will charge a premiu
53 Flighty : What extra cost? Most times, wartime requirements do "give advantage" to the superior competitor. What gives? Is this about Fairness McLawyerpants, o
54 Post contains links Tommytoyz : Yes, I agree with the gist of your post. Though you will be surprised to find out how much longer the KC-135s can still serve. They're only flying th
55 Revelation : It's so interesting because when KC-135 was introduced it absolutely was state of the art, and I don't think it'd be fair to say Boeing charged a pre
56 Par13del : Is this really true, I am under the impression that the reasn why current military projects cost so much is because the client has to pay for a lot o
57 KC135TopBoom : The USAF disclosed the pricing information to Boeing after it lost last year. That is what the laws tell them they have to do. Even EADS/NG has not d
58 Tommytoyz : This is the point. It can actually be argued that the entire KC-Xs concept is inferior to what we already have. What happens when a large KC-X tanker
59 Zeke : Apart from the same size cross section as the A300, the A330 has no similarity on a structural scale. The A300/A310 line has shut down long time ago.
60 EPA001 : In addition to what Zeke already replied, all I have written is true, and you know that. It is even undisputed. Hell, it is one of the main reasons w
61 NorCal : The question is if we need those extra capabilities or not and how much do they cost us not only in aquistion costs but also things like MILCON costs
62 Revelation : It sounds to me like you are talking about the A400M now!
63 Tommytoyz : Then they wouldn't actually be flying today's missions.
64 Tommytoyz : Not if the receptor needs the boom Not if the KC-X is not there because it has been destroyed or has technical issues That may or may not be true, de
65 Evomutant : In a sense it is the same. American's bitch that the Europeans went with a home grown project in the A400M, rejecting a built and capable American al
66 EPA001 : This in general is very true. But the one tanker would do the job better than the other. But what you have stated is agreement with what I wrote earl
67 Flighty : If the KC-X entails fewer maintenance soldiers and fewer aviators, then that saves a "metric f**kton" of money, to steal a phrase. The main cost of t
68 XT6Wagon : Many here seem to be unaware that the MAJORITY of the recievers in the US military use the boom and not the drogue. When you narrow it down to the US
69 Post contains links Tommytoyz : How is this for a war scenario: "The core problem in Pacific Vision 2008 was that even an invulnerable American fighter force ran out of missiles befo
70 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Why do you need a checklist in a computer? I carried mine, it was a booklet. The USAF uese booklet checklists. Are you saying the LCD flat screens of
71 Par13del : The devil is in the details, there are numbers and statistics, so let's play with the 3.5 number. Pilot, Co-pilot and boom operator. Since the cargo
72 Bennett123 : Revelation If you wait 10 years, then the A330/B767 will be out of the frame. It will be the A350, B787, (which Boeing says is unsuitable) or the B777
73 XT6Wagon : Thats the interesting thing, The KC135R's low fuel burn due to minimal plane size for capacity gives it very good offload as you reach the longer dur
74 CMB56 : A head to head competition between the 767-200 airframe and the A330-200 airframe is impossible. They are simply not the same capabilities. Airframe p
75 Par13del : The US has only one maker of large commercial a/c, that is Boeing, how exactly did they come up with the idea of a competiton for what is potentially
76 JarheadK5 : There is only one refueling boom mounted to each tanker, regardless of who builds it. Therefore... more tankers = more booms. You misunderstood what
77 Par13del : My apologies, I should have used a smiley, I understood exactly what he meant its the reason why I made the comment about numbers and statistics. Lay
78 KC135TopBoom : Boom Operators are also Loadmasters. They are qualified in both disiplines, but only on their assigned tanker. You cannot use a KC-135 Boom Operator
79 EPA001 : What an incredibale stupid and arrogant comment to make here. So all the airliners in the world replacing their B767's with (at this time) almost exc
80 Par13del : I'll let others defend their comments, but when I mentioned this it was because there are many 767's still in use and the reason why all have not yet
81 KC135TopBoom : How many B-767s has AA replaced with A-330s? DL? BA? AF? KE? JL? NH? LH? AC? UA? CO? QF (they currently fly both types, I guess keeping the B-767s to
82 Cpd : I think you might not be correct about QF. QF has started retiring B767 aircraft. VH-OGD has already gone to the graveyard - meanwhile, it recently t
83 Par13del : So do you see any operators of A330's rushing to replace them with A330's or are they signing up for the A350, 787 or 777's, the principle of replaci
84 Ken777 : Sort of like political pressure from someone running for President put on pressure to change specs to allow NG/Airbus to compete? McCain lost the ele
85 PolymerPlane : So, if the A330 is "cheaper" than the B767, then why is NG/EADS afraid of competing? The competition is not for the cheaper PLANE but cheaper OVERALL
86 Post contains images EPA001 :                Many airlines have, and many are still doing so, and you are in denial of a fact which everybody worldwide acknowledges. Tha
87 Cpd : That was many, many years ago. Some of those A330's have since gone to Jetstar - while other A330s have come along to replace them. Which answers ano
88 KC135TopBoom : Exactly. EADS/NG can compete their A-330, if they can make it meet the 373 mandatory requirements, which they should be able to do. Then they need to
89 CMB56 : I will agree that anyone pulling out now can't file a complaint later. I doubt this is about walking away from the process but is more likely about pr
90 Par13del : If we go by the commercial sector I don't believe that the A330 is within 1% or - of anything related to the 767, I use the 767 because Boeing has al
91 Astuteman : Huh? With the exception of the M777 howitzer which I presume you refer to, which is built in the factory I work in, is the ONLY weapon of its type an
92 KC135TopBoom : Well, it is not just BAE Systems that builds systems or parts of systems for the US. Ever heard of Krupp of Germany (hint one of their products sunk
93 Par13del : So the only benefit a European or UK business gets from opening and operating a branch in the US is publicity and nothing economic whatsoever, unless
94 Astuteman : I responding directly to a comment about BAE Systems, which was not accurate. I actually didn't say that. I was querying the logic of worrying about
95 Zeke : Because even Boeing is admitting it is a stacked deck ... "requirements for a new aerial refueling tanker favor a 767"
96 KC135TopBoom : Your statement is also assuming the B-767 (or A-330) have had no aerodynamic improvements or improvements to engines since they entered airliner serv
97 Astuteman : It isn't actually. All its doing is considering the plane at a system level. No matter what improvements the 767 has had, despite being 36% lighter,
98 Par13del : To make sure we are on the same track, I took your initial comment to mean that BAE Systems were leaving all their profits in the US. Unless I'm read
99 Flighty : ANY deal is legal, as long as the government signs up for it. The deal was a case of public corruption, for which people went to jail. Because even i
100 Astuteman : It is. And as such, I would suggest that the profits made in the USA have been ploughed back into investments made in the USA - either acquisitions o
101 Osiris30 : I wish people would start throwing in the (appropriate) caveat when making comments like this. Said caveat being 'for certain mission profiles'. The
102 Par13del : And that is what foreign investment is and should be about, both sides benefit, it's why I never understood the hit BAE Systems took for increasing t
103 PolymerPlane : You are taking the quote out of context. He was comparing 767 to 777 not to A330. What part of the requirements of KC-X favors the 767 compared to A3
104 Post contains links PolymerPlane : No it does not www.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFPAM10-1403.pdf KC-135R: 10,718 lb/hr B767: 10,552 lb/hr Cheers, PP
105 Astuteman : And thus no caveat was necessary, since we are in complete agreement.. Rgds
106 Revelation : Yes, the aluminum frames can last out to 80+ years, but the reason the USAF says they aren't going to do that with the KC-135Es is because reparing a
107 Zeke : That is not right. The extended A300 designs including the A300 based trijet were dropped, they could not make the stretch work with 2 engines on the
108 Par13del : Well the a/c that is being replaced the KC-135 is based on a civilian frame that did not sell well on the pax front, it had to be extended and improv
109 Flighty : Look, it is a serious question and I gave a serious answer. Clearly EADS is worried about history repeating itself. There is no business opportunity
110 Francoflier : I believe that is THE question. Buying a new tanker with no RFP would have been criticized by taxpayers as being a foolish and expensive decision. Do
111 KC135TopBoom : The law has not changed, it has always been based on the lowest bidder concept, but there are a few exceptions. In this case, The USAF could have gon
112 Revelation : What's so selective about it? Protests of awards happen all the time, some are upheld, others are not (CSAR-X, KC-X). Now THAT's a selective critique
113 Tommytoyz : I would say that because: 1. The procurement officer went to jail 2. The Boeing contract was canceled That Boeing was NOT successful in bribing. Ther
114 KC135TopBoom : So, you think the current DFRP does not write down the decision making criteria? I got a news flash for ya', it does sell it out very clearly and pla
115 Tommytoyz : To bring a little perspective I think is missing in this discussion: The US military is subordinate to the civilian leadership in the Congress and Whi
116 Post contains links Revelation : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darleen_Druyun says: It seems to me that Boeing was quite successful in committing bribery. The only thing Boeing was no
117 Post contains links Moose135 : From Newsday.com: http://www.newsday.com/columnists/ot...-bid-on-air-force-tanker-1.1642016
118 Post contains links and images Zeke : Seems they have done this all over again, not to mention go against the GAO recommendations from the last round. I have not seen anything in the DRFP
119 Revelation : Well, at least now we won't have to deal with any messy protests! Somehow I don't think this is over yet. Well, it was inevitable the guidelines favo
120 Par13del : Well considering the number of things that are painted green and grey in need of replacement and or repairs, that may not be such a bad deal for the
121 KC135TopBoom : What GAO recommendations releast in June 2008 are/were not followed? I agree, this is far from over. But, I think EADS/NG will provide an offer. If t
122 Revelation : Indeed. The real issue is how much work will Boeing have to do to meet the mandatory requirements of the RFP. If they can get away with the current K
123 EPA001 : Controversial or not, they did not only make the NG tanker look better, they underlined where exactly the NG-EADS tanker was better then the Boeing t
124 Revelation : I have to agree. They have put a lot of money into the KC330 and I don't think it was to win the onesy twosy orders they have been getting, it was to
125 EPA001 : Well, when they selected the NG-EADS Tanker they clearly did. But all of that is old news.
126 KC135TopBoom : The current Italian KC-767A does not fit this RFP in many ways, including the ability to offload XXXXX fuel at XXX nm, compared to the KC-135R (the I
127 Par13del : Since the customer is also paying for the development I say it's the way to go, the days of OEM's producing their products then offering them for sal
128 Flighty : That's true. But, Airbus serves a role to keep Boeing an honest and productive contractor to help the Pentagon win wars, not just make megatons of mo
129 Post contains links Seefivein : If they are trying to get rid of all C-5's--why are they telling Boeing to design their new tanker boom and tanker size for the C-5's... If Boeing doe
130 KC135TopBoom : Not all the C-5s are being retired. About 50 C-5As are, but 1 C-5A, all C-5B/Cs will be reengined and AMP'd into the C-5M. I doubt there are any behi
131 Par13del : Look at it as posturing by both sides. NG will be the "boom" specialist in the EADS relationship, they are just testing their first boom, Boeing test
132 Astuteman : Because we haven't seen it passing fuel. don't you remember? The boom ABSOLUTELY doesn't work in any way shape or form until it is actually SEEN maki
133 Zeke : No that is not correct, KC-135Rs will be retired as a result of KC-X as well. This is exactly what was said at the KC-X briefing. Over half of the KC
134 YVRLTN : As the USAF have dozens of C130's, C17's & C5's, not to mention chartering civilian AN124's and whatever else, how much are the KC135's & KC10's curre
135 Rheinwaldner : No, some people simply overlooked how bad the Boeing boom looks when applying their own criteria. By doing that, we see that in fact the Boeing boom
136 XT6Wagon : Nope, cargo capacity is almost exclusively used for deployment missions. More and easier is better, but trust me when I say that most pilots would ra
137 Zeke : Boeing does not have a boom, wing pods, or a center line hose that meets the current spec. That does not stop them from making claims to the contrary
138 XT6Wagon : Zeke, I know you love to play this game but the first 3 planes that NG was to "deliver" were NOT going to be full KC-X specification, and in fact wer
139 Rheinwaldner : Sorry, I don't understand this answer. I stick to my dumb "if it hasn't passed fuel on a KC-767AT it don't work". Beyond that I am not able to grasp
140 KC135TopBoom : The only difference between the KC-767A/J Gen. V Boom and the new Gen. VI Boom is the flow rate. That is not a difficult requirement to meet. Boeing
141 Rheinwaldner : Just wanted to say that this is a fair answer... I like it if you are consistent in both directions. Regardless whether I agree in the details...
142 Post contains images Zeke : Incorrect, all SDD aircraft (4) had to be to the RFP specification. The only difference with the first 4 was they were to be assembled in Europe, NG
143 Post contains links XT6Wagon : “The initial contract for the newly named KC-45 is for the system design and development of four test aircraft for $1.5 billion." http://www.defense
144 Post contains links Seefivein : Didn't see this coming and I hope that this is not an issue if Northrop does stay in. The focus has to stay on the tanker. http://blog.al.com/live/200
145 AndyDTWnwa7 : Sorry if its been mentioned. I didnt see any referance to it in this thread, and my knowledge in the realm of tanker replacements is lacking. Whats go
146 XT6Wagon : Its dead right now as the RFP is written in a very restricted manner and there isn't a big grey area. All the requirements you must meet are now pass
147 EPA001 : Also in the previous RFP there were a lot of requirements to be met. That the B777 would have won hands down is rubbish. The RFP was only slightly mo
148 Post contains links Zeke : The exact wording from the RFP was "The Contractor shall accomplish all effort necessary to design, develop, test, and certify the KC-X System requir
149 KC135TopBoom : While that is true, none of it is beyond current technology for Boeing. Increasing the flow rate on the Boom itself is not difficult, nor is it for t
150 EPA001 : The original requirement out of the previous RFP was for a full load taking off from a 7,000 ft runway. That the B767-AT could not do. So it is no bu
151 KC135TopBoom : In your reply # 147, you said MAXIMUM runway, now you are talking about MINIMUM runway. But, as you also said, that is all water under the bridge now
152 EPA001 : Oops, my bad. I meant in the original post also minimum, but wrote maximum. My apologies.
153 KC135TopBoom : Not a problem, my friend. I think we all do that from time to time.
154 Post contains links and images Zeke : If it was so simple why didn't they have that functionally since day one to have the same flow rate as the KC-10. Show me anywhere that says that cha
155 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : The ITAF KC-767A offloaded some 10,000 lbs of fuel to a USAF B-52H receiver on 5 March 2007. http://www.defencetalk.com/boeing-kc...st-fuel-offload-t
156 Zeke : 73 contacts to offload less than 2 minutes of fuel at the normal flow rate, two years after you claimed it was done. Nope, the Parker one I have seen
157 Post contains links Seefivein : I guess it is time to call a bluff and move on posted earlier today Air Force: No major changes in tanker terms http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE
158 Post contains links Seefivein : I see another post out today about pulling out of the Tanker bid. Are they wanting to go after the new Bomber deal now UPDATE 1-EADS says not fooling
159 KC135TopBoom : I believe not all those contacts were on one sortie. The USAF needs to stick with the warfighter, which the RFP is written for, not EADS/NG and not B
160 Zeke : You may of heard of the B-2.
161 KC135TopBoom : I know, but did not include that as there is not an update model proposed for the B-2A, yet. The B-1R, F-15SE, and FB-22A are all propposed aircraft,
162 Post contains links Seefivein : December 15, 2009 Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala seems to have put a hold on confirmation of Erin Conaton to get the Tanker Competition changed, also block
163 Par13del : Some point I noted from the articles: Pentagon was forced to rewrite the RFP due to cost, hhhmm, thought it was about the needs of the military. Alaba
164 Tommytoyz : ""If those changes do not address Northrop Grumman/EADS's substantive concerns, then (the Department of Defense) cannot legitimately claim that the co
165 Tommytoyz : "The Northrop-EADS team had not identified any single change that would allow it to bid..." They're complaining without mentioning specifics it seems.
166 Silentbob : If I remember correctly, the extra credit for exceeding requirements isn't factored into the process unless they come in at the same price. In other
167 Burkhard : When I understand it correctly, Boeing offers a capable tanker with little use for air lift. Northrop offers a tanker with bigger use for air lift. Th
168 XT6Wagon : Unfortunately the cargo advantage for the KC30 is over rated, with its only clear advantage in extra floor space. It does so with a nearly 777 sized
169 Rheinwaldner : The ultimate blow for Boeing would be for EADS to offer the KC-330 cheaper than the KC-767. How much different are basic cost of a 767 or A330 airfra
170 Revelation : C'mon guys, I know the 767 is somewhat dated, but geez. It's a large 767F order from UPS that is keeping the line open these days because it was the
171 Zeke : 767-300 not 767-200, when was the last 767-200 order ? around 8 years ago ? The equivalent number of KC-30s (315) based upon IFARA analysis as 600 KC
172 KC135TopBoom : Correct No, the proposed KC-767AT has more than 3X the airlift capability of the KC-135 No, it will not. The B-737NG model with the most fuel capacit
173 Revelation : Correct, but I'm not sure why it's relevant. As above: And the real question is how much more are you willing to pay for even more capability.
174 KC135TopBoom : Correct, it is not relevent. Not much. We know that in 95% + missions the KC-X will be used as the KC-10s and KC-135s are today. With a KC-767AT bein
175 Zeke : When did Boeing say they they are going to go with the KC-767AT ? Rumors I heard was more like a Italian tanker with some modifications.
176 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : They have not said that. But the ITAF KC-767A only holds about 160,600 lbs of fuel, and the RFP for the USAF requires the KC-X to carry at least what
177 Zeke : The RFP does not say that, it has a fuel offload vs range requirement. The 767 burns less fuel than the KC-135, so it should not need to carry as muc
178 Par13del : Well in the commercial market the A330 is a more expensive frame than the 767, and that includes taking popularity out of the equation, so unless NG/
179 Post contains links Zeke : One of the reasons for that is the interior, the A330 hold more passengers, and is just more expensive to provide an interior for them. On the actual
180 Revelation : Interesting. I wonder what the average fuel offload was for just the KC-10 family.
181 Post contains links Seefivein : If Boeing is ready to submit their bid for the Tanker as the Contract now reads, how long did they know it would read that way ( in their favor). "mak
182 KennyK : So many arguments back and forth. I think Airbus should walk away and leave the competition to Boeing, otherwise it will be 2050 by the time the USAF
183 XT6Wagon : At most it tells you that other nations are not the USAF. The USAF is reliant on boom refueling, other nations far less so. The USAF needs hundreds o
184 CMB56 : Here - here, fuel is dense so the wide body is not needed to haul it. The wide bodies rule for pax and freight. Taken to the extreme here the flying w
185 Post contains links Zeke : A video of the KC-30 in flight delivering fuel on the flight global website http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...ew-video-who-wins-kc-x-battle.html
186 Post contains links Lumberton : Food for thought--althought they got the party for Dicks & Tihart wrong! US lawmakers warn on Airbus subsidy issue 100 is just the beginning. Edit: Op
187 KC135TopBoom : Ahhh, no it does not. The KC-767 is bigger and heavier than the KC-135, and those two huge engines are very thirsty. The only airlines that got an A-
188 CMB56 : Please don't loose sight here of the fact that the USAF has nearly 500 tankers that will need to be replaced over time. This competition is just for t
189 Playloud : If the KC-767AT burns more fuel than the KC-135R, and they both carry the same 202k fuel load, how could the KC-767AT meet the requirement of >= KC-1
190 Post contains links Zeke : I hope they are equally quick to condemn themselves when the WTO rules against them again next time. Last time when the WTO found they were using ill
191 JoeCanuck : It doesn't matter who is chosen...the tanker will most likely come in late and over budget. I don't think there have every been very many military pro
192 Astuteman : You'll undoubtedly be correct there when it shown that Boeing have benefitted equally from illegal subsidies, as it surely will....... Since when was
193 Lumberton : undoubtedly"? "surely"? How can you be so...well...sure? What if WTO rules for the US and against the EU on the other? Are you saying that it CAN NOT
194 Zeke : The WTO has ALREADY ruled in 2005 on some of this, it WAS found that Boeing benefited from illegal tax breaks. The EU case against the US is more of
195 Lumberton : "Some of this"? So much hope! Too bad we can't channel this into the climate treaty? In the meantime, I for one will wait until they actually rule on
196 KC135TopBoom : The requirement is to off-load 94,000 lbs of fuel at 1000 nm, plus meet the other off-load and distance requirements on the chart. The KC-135R, KC-76
197 Post contains links Zeke : Well that is what we know about the US case so far. The WTO found what the EU was doing was PARTIALLY illegal (yeah I know it is like saying only bei
198 KC135TopBoom : I can agree with some of that. The US has, for decades subsidized US Farmers, but then again, so has Europe. But, in the rest of that, the hypercriti
199 Zeke : The USAF planning numbers for the 707 is 13,916 lb/hr, I just pulled a random flight plan off out mainframe for an A330-300 flight, it worked out to
200 Astuteman : Come on, guys. Seems like there's "so much hope" on both sides. You've been around long enough to know that ALL big organisations, especially in this
201 KC135TopBoom : Correct, and the pricing (in April 2008) came out just under the low side I wrote. While I agree both the A-330 and B-767 have a supercritical wing d
202 Lumberton : Well, the opponents in congress to the airbus tanker are building up to "hyper-critical". If you think that's "hypocritical", then that's your opinio
203 Zeke : That is evidence of poor wing design, you do not need that same wing sweep as you did 50 years ago. The A380 wing sweep is lower than the 747-8, but
204 Astuteman : That's how I see it, my friend, and in truth, don't have that much of an issue with it - that's the way the world works in BIG business, especially i
205 WarRI1 : That to me says it nicely, I am pro American to a fault myself, I look to help our Friends, but not to the detriment of the US. Airbus/Eads is not ou
206 Astuteman : No need to. ou're quite right. Finishing the comment with the appropriate "Boeing is not out to help anyone in any way shape or form either, they are
207 JoeCanuck : True...so why not go with the local crooks instead of the foreign crooks, eh? I don't know of any country that doesn't. After all, why go overseas whe
208 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : When the KC-135 and B-707-120 wings were designed, they were cutting edge technology. The fact that we know more today then 50 years ago does not mak
209 Zeke : That was back when only Technicolor cameras produced color movies, RCA demonstrates the first electronic color television tube, and CBS television wa
210 Par13del : So is the A330 and 767 faster than the KC-135, we seem to have switched to a discussion on the 747 / 8 and the A380 neither yet in the running for th
211 Post contains links Astuteman : 37.5 degrees according to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747 There also a plan view comparison which I believe one of our own might have ha
212 WarRI1 : Boeing is a businees, absolutely, out to make money etc. The key word is American. I may not agree with all that Boeing does, but, "my country right
213 WarRI1 : I agree, keep it at home as much as one can, a lesson the US and Canada has to relearn as far as I am concerned. Airbus/Eads seems to have leaned tha
214 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : No, the fact we can do more today is directly related to what they learned to do 50 years ago. Yes, we have "improved" on their designs, we have not
215 Astuteman : Don't have a problem with that, by the way. That's a choice that Sovereign Government politicians are at liberty to make. I only start to struggle wh
216 Revelation : Indeed. In the case of the A400M, the customers knew they were sole-sourcing the product and tried to put in protections against cost overruns, but i
217 KC135TopBoom : I seriously doubt that will happen as the USAF already has a good idea what Boeing would charge for a KC-767AT (from last year's compitition), and kn
218 JoeCanuck : That's probably true. They can get everything they really need, (within a few percentage points), from a local supplier, it doesn't really make much
219 Post contains links Lumberton : Scott Hamilton reports that Boeing may offer "launch customer pricing". http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2009/12/18/kc-xalbaugh/
220 WarRI1 : I understand, but we have to look back many years, everything may not have been rosy, but we had a mutual advantagious system, the US supplied the um
221 KC135TopBoom : Very well said. Now watch out for a salvo from our European friends.
222 Evomutant : No one is disagreeing. No one is saying that the US should buy European. All that gets people's back up is the hypocrisy shown throughout this thread
223 Zeke : EADS is a result of merging various companies over the last 100+ years, making military equipment in Europe did not start with EADS. If you go back i
224 Revelation : Seems like bogus statistics to me. Seems you lump together the purchase of commodities like electricity, gasoline and butter and wages of local suppo
225 JoeCanuck : Actually, it could have the opposite effect. It would kill the US dollar and make US exports the cheapest in the world and Chinese some of the most e
226 Zeke : Nothing bogus about the numbers, the budget for next year is $636.3 billion. Not at all, the US is a nett importer, not exporter, they do not make mu
227 JoeCanuck : US industry is fully capable of manufacturing anything. They were a net exporter until the rest of the world started making cheaper goods. This trend
228 Revelation : Right, the numbers aren't bogus, the things you imply based on them are bogus. It's clear that much of the $636.3 billion spend is for salaries, bene
229 KC135TopBoom : Yes, we did import some weapons, but the majority were manufactured in the US, this goes back to just after the American Revolutionary War, when in 1
230 Baroque : I cannot believe you wrote that. Must be the cold weather. Aside from: how would your aviation fare if the UK took back its patent rights on Whittle'
231 JoeCanuck : Considering the Whittle had a centrifugal compressor and modern jets use an axial flow design much more similar to the german junker designs...probab
232 Post contains links Seefivein : I beginning to see this as "It's mine , mine I tell ya - I don't have to tell ya what I'm gonna give ya - it's mine" Merry Christmas folks http://blog
233 ThePointblank : Not good for competitiveness... if we let Boeing be the sole provider of tankers, then they are more than free to gouge the taxpayer, and sit on thei
234 Par13del : Is this trend of thought because Boeing is a private company or an American company, it is not smething we see said about Airbus and or EADS why is t
235 KC135TopBoom : That is if you don't trust Boeing. Don't forget, the USAF does have a fall back position and that is to reengine the KC-135Es if Boeing plays games w
236 CMB56 : I don't trust Boeing any further than I can carry a 747 and I work with them frequently. They are in business to make money. So it Airbus. (Don't forg
237 Trex8 : except for the wing from a -400 and a boom which hasn't flown yet and drogue pods the Italians have been having problems with. otherwise its just lik
238 Par13del : Well this we agree on then you state the line below. The second time US Air Force violated the rules when it awarded the contract to NG/EADS, they sc
239 CMB56 : The 767 is an early 80s design, the A330 and early 90s. Eventually both will require systems upgrades during the life of the airframe. The 135 has cer
240 KC135TopBoom : No, The USAF screwed up both times, first with Boeing, then with EADS. I agree with that. No, the KC-767A for Italy or KC-767J for Japan do not fit t
241 EPA001 : This was discussed many times before here. The hull is the same diameter as the A300, but is newly designed. So the wings and the hull are a late eig
242 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Well, then you had better go back and recheck your facts. Until the A-380 came along, Airbus had only one wide body fuselage to modify into the newer
243 EPA001 : This is correct and contradicts this: The A330 and A340 fuselages share the initial dimensions, and are quite similar to those of the A300-B2 design
244 CMB56 : For me the airframe is a wash between A or B. Neither is going to be changed for this competition. When either first built that particular shape of fu
245 EPA001 : Try the A380. Those systems you mention can be found there as well.
246 WarRI1 : I have to be careful here, they deleted some of my replies as too far off topic. I do not support NG/EADS in their bid for the tanker, politics, mone
247 CMB56 : The A380 display system is not based on large area displays, 10"x15". The 380 displays are 8x10 so that technology has already been replaced in the ma
248 KC135TopBoom : I agree there is not much difference in the age of the two designs. Neither will add to or take away from the tanker mission. Well said, my friend.
249 Boeing4ever : The more I read on this matter, the more it becomes clear that we should select neither Boeing nor Northrop/EADS and just sole-source a clean sheet de
250 Seefivein : Amen not a bad solution
251 Cargotanker : I second that.
252 Evomutant : So again, I ask, why put up the charade that Europeans (in particular) should not pursue their own procurement strategies, like the A400M, instead of
253 KC135TopBoom : Perhaps, but it would take LM perhaps 10 + years to develope a new tanker. But, many also see shutting out EADS from the tanker as the same as EU shu
254 Moose135 : Yes, it goes both ways. But when some of the same people saying it was fine for the Europeans to buy the home-grown A400M regardless of whether there
255 WarRI1 : With the help of the US, Europe has enjoyed peace and prosperity since the end of WW2, explain the shafting that we are guilty of. Now My take on Air
256 Evomutant : Unlike Boeing of course, who are committed to European financial welfare. Like I say, i have no problem with someone wanting to block out foreign con
257 Post contains images Boeing4ever : And it's taken Boeing and Northrop/Airbus and the DoD 10 + years just to lay the ground rules for simply selecting which of their freaking off the sh
258 WarRI1 : I have not read any demands, a lot of opinions on the Tanker contracts. whether it is a good deal for the US and its workers and its defense. Boeing
259 EPA001 : That is way too simple, but also off-topic. Most in Europe are still very grateful for what the US has done after WW-II, but the Marshall help was a
260 Post contains links WarRI1 : It is off topic to some extent, but one has to consider the reasoning from our side about the NG/EADS tanker contract. Talk about too simple, short m
261 ThePointblank : Or Lockheed Martin can turn around and pick a COTS aircraft to build a tanker off of in a fraction of the time... which would lead back to square one
262 Boeing4ever : My whole point is to sole source it to LM and lay down requirements for an airframe optimized for the tanker role, not an existing COTS platform. Squ
263 EPA001 : That would be impossible to state since the whole course of history would have been different without the US helping Europe back on it's feet again.
264 ThePointblank : Then you got one very expensive tanker then.
265 Rheinwaldner : But for the first time in history the US could buy a product that is partly financed by European taxpayers! It is like a chance. For once enjoy the b
266 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Has it really? After all this is the reason why we are talking about a new USAF tanker. The growth in those US companies would have been slower, but
267 Evomutant : Avro was a subsid of Hawker-Siddley even before the war. It didn't go out of business, it was just folded into the main HS operation in the mid 60's.
268 Boeing4ever : Let's wait and see how much this circus costs us if it ever reaches completion before we make that kind of judgement. It's been 10 + years, millions
269 Trex8 : like the CFM56 engines where snecma coughed up all the R & D money 30 years ago which are on all those tankers flying already??
270 EPA001 : The world is far from perfect, that is why we need military forces to secure our security, stability and well being. You are absolutely right about t
271 KC135TopBoom : At least in the EU, many places in the ME and the US.
272 Allegro : As an American citizen the very idea of competing this is an insult. There is absolutely no reason to solicit a bid from anyone else, unless they are
273 WarRI1 : I have no doubt of that, it is just a good idea to refresh our memories, including mine about history. In my opinion only, the US has been much criti
274 ThePointblank : Would you not agree that encouraging a foreign company to setup and employ Americans in the US in a important sector of the economy a good thing? Tha
275 Allegro : All good points! Still makes me a bit nervous ... and I would like any profits to go to an American company. Having two manufacturers does not thrill
276 Post contains links ArniePie : I fully understand where you are coming from but you should be careful what you wish for (exclusivity rights for American companies supplying big mil
277 Rheinwaldner : Good example! You bet on the supremacy of US products. What if this premise is not given? Deal with the second best material? If the US and the Swiss
278 Par13del : The above can be very confusing, what is being hotly debated in this thread is the protectionism of the US by attempting to give a multi-billion doll
279 Burkhard : Yes, I expect that the number of civil Airbuses out of Mobile will exceed the tankers. When they set up for a production of 4 per month, this makes 4
280 KC135TopBoom : Correct, even the USAF said the KC-767AT had a better combat survival system compared to the KC-30. Also, the A-330 does have some quarks that still
281 Astuteman : Works both ways, I suspect Works both ways, too Works both ways, too, demonstrably You don't think Europe paid a high enough price during WW2?????? L
282 PolymerPlane : as opposed to 120 year old design?
283 Par13del : My point exactly, they will be assembling Airbuses, not designing and creating their own a/c and civilian infrastructure. Well some countries seem to
284 ArniePie : Wasn't saying we should sell them anything at all ,just clarifying how ridiculous an embargo from a EU member state towards the US really sounds.
285 Allegro : I was trying to be balanced but it is a little hard on this topic. I am not criticizing Europe as being ungrateful. Did not ever mean to say that Eur
286 EPA001 : Of which at least 62% remains in the US. In the B767-AT case a maximum of 85% stays within the US economy. There is no 100% US scenario here.
287 Astuteman : Many, many thanks for the conciliatory responses, Allegro. Much appreciated. And if I overreacted, then I apologise (which I probably did). The strat
288 Baroque : Oh Joe, you are confusing the engines that lead to the Welland with the patent. Back in 1921: Maxime Guillaume patents the axial-flow turbine engine.
289 EPA001 : I was not aware that you were signing yourself as Erwin Rommel. But seriously, with all the debating that is going on here on A-net, basic knowledge
290 Par13del : Well, in Bosnia while survivors still lived a spectre of the last great war reared its ugly head again, some memory of past tragedies should be kept
291 Baroque : FWIW I read somewhere and now cannot find it - probably Aus Av or and UK mag, that the A32x had a higher US content in $ terms than the 73x did. I pr
292 KC135TopBoom : When has the US not supported an EU country when they needed to use military action. In fact, USAF (SAC) KC-135s picked-up a lot of work for the RAF
293 WarRI1 : This I cannot deny, I seem to have a bias, not towards Europe as a whole, just to a certain country who is part of Airbus/EADS that sometimes brings
294 Trex8 : dunno when the EEC started and for sure the UK weren't in it then, but did we upset the Brits and French during the Suez crisis!!
295 Trex8 : like there were lots of other off the shelf aircraft they could have proposed?? would you be happier with an NG/Antonov partnership??
296 WarRI1 : Some company of US origin would have satisfied me. Jobs, jobs, jobs.
297 ThePointblank : Problem is that who else besides Boeing produces aircraft the size and configuration needed for a tanker? None.
298 Baroque : Dear Basil Don't even think of doing that unless you wish my high heel through one of your toes. Signed Sybil
299 LifelinerOne : Well, you might want to sell them some planes so that the people of Syria have a save way of travelling without the risk of falling out of the sky be
300 Par13del : Hence the reason why this entire issue has been so screwed up, the Pentagon and DOD knew the size of the contract they were proposing and they decide
301 KC135TopBoom : One of your bests replys, ever, Baroque, my friend. Now that I agree with you, scantions and embargos never work. The country that wants what ever is
302 Trex8 : in these days of multinationals what does that mean? When Chrysler was Daimler Chrysler would that be acceptable as a US origin company? If RR N Amer
303 Par13del : That's one way of looking at it but my main point was that the US has only one producer of civilian a/c "on the shelf" capable of competing for the b
304 WarRI1 : My point exactly, I have never said that I like the way Boeing or anyone else has sent jobs overseas, quite the opposite. If someone can find me advo
305 WarRI1 : I must say that I must be more disingenuous from now on. When I have aroused Sybil from her slumber, it is time to rethink my replies. I guess the mo
306 Baroque : The mods would indeed be correct except after all the comings and going about the damned tanker just about anything has to be on topic because the wr
307 KC135TopBoom : Well, then, the most likely company would be LM.
308 WarRI1 : I'm out of here.
309 EI787 : As this thread has grown so long, it will now be locked. If any member wishes to continue the discussion, feel free to start a new thread on the topic
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