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Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way  
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 16702 times:

Really interesting Big grin
Google translation from Swedish news site RAPPORT.

Aircraft manufacturer Saab will present shortly a new version of the JAS Gripen fighter plane, the report can now reveal. The new version is specially adapted for aircraft carriers. The background is that the Indian Navy has turned to Saab with an inquiry.

The new aircraft is based on the latest NG version of the JAS Gripen, the model Saab is now trying to sell to several different countries. Of these, Brazil and India also showed interest for the aircraft carrier-based variant.

Saab has been over a year working on the project and will shortly be submitting a development plan for the Indian Navy. These include the strengthening of the landing wheels, some other technical changes and a hook on landing.

The new aircraft carrier-based version of the Gripen is called Sea Gripen and are not in reality but only on the drawing board. The background to India's interest is the country's plans for a major expansion of its aircraft carrier fleet in the next 10-15 years.

Overall, it is about three to five new aircraft carriers, which means that any business may be about 50 to 100 new fighter planes. Gripen is one of several aircraft that are being considered.

This deal is completely off the Indian Air Force are now at the final stage of. These are just over 100 new aircraft to be purchased and also here is JAS Gripen is a candidate.

The original specification for the JAS Gripen makes that only limited modifications of the plane to make it clear aircraft carrier takeoffs and landings, according to project manager Peter Nilsson.

The Swedish system with road bases has made great demands on the possibility of land on narrow roads and short runways. An environment that is similar to what happens on an aircraft carrier, he says.


http://svt.se/2.22620/1.1846884/saab_tar_fram_ny_jas-modell


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 16627 times:

Very interesting indeed! Let's hope it will be reality.

Here's an article for our english speaking friends:

http://www.stratpost.com/saab-offers-naval-gripen-to-india

http://i48.tinypic.com/5wwdnt.jpg


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16405 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 1):
Very interesting indeed! Let's hope it will be reality.

O yes  yes  Nice picture! and article.



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 16265 times:

Starting with zero carrier expeience they would need an experienced partner for that. Looks like to a have a niche though. F18/Rafale/Mig29K are much heavier/bigger/twin engined. The JSF is the obvious contender, but such an aircraft, Corsair / Skyhawk / Etendard style, could offer a lower cost/risk alternative.. The Gripen/carrier artist impression looks credible somehow.

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16218 times:



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 2):
Nice picture!

But not a very accurate picture. It shows the Sea GripenNG coming off the slant cat on a Nimitz class CVN. With a Cat assisted TO link (the rod stickin out forward of the nose gear), the airplane would not reach such a nose high attitude, it would be level or a max of about 2-3 degrees above a level attitude.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Starting with zero carrier expeience they would need an experienced partner for that.

Well, they can team up with Boeing (F/A-18), NG (F-14 and other "cat" aircraft), LM (S-3B, and F-35C), or Dassault (Rafile), who all build, or have built carrier based aircraft. There are more companies (T-34C, T-45) with CV capable aircraft to help, too.


User currently offlineGolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16196 times:

IIRC, India's current carrier INS Viraat and it's planned carriers Gorshkov and the 2 indigenous Vikrant class carriers under construction are all STOBAR and do not have a cat.

User currently offlineSejowa From United States of America, joined May 2006, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 16175 times:

I remember while skating around Gotland last year how we came to an icredibly wide stretch of road not too far from Visby with a great view. I'm beginning to make a connection! A very shrewd strategy to consider the entire weapon system's vulnerabilities, and not only the sharp end of the sword.

More (naval) fighter competition is good news!


User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 16135 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
But not a very accurate picture. It shows the Sea GripenNG coming off the slant cat on a Nimitz class CVN. With a Cat assisted TO link (the rod stickin out forward of the nose gear), the airplane would not reach such a nose high attitude, it would be level or a max of about 2-3 degrees above a level attitude.

True. I guess the artist though it looked a bit boring with little/no pitch.


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Photo © Scott Rathbone


The F-14 doesn't seem to have any pitch at all...

Quoting Golfradio (Reply 5):
IIRC, India's current carrier INS Viraat and it's planned carriers Gorshkov and the 2 indigenous Vikrant class carriers under construction are all STOBAR and do not have a cat.

From the article above:

Quote:
According to Peter Nilsson, Gripen’s Vice President of Operational Capabilities, the Sea Gripen is intended for both CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take Off But Arrested Recovery) as well as STOBAR (Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery) operations. “There will obviously be differences in the MTOW (Maximum Take-Off Weight).



User currently offlineCheetahC From South Africa, joined Apr 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 16088 times:



Quoting Sejowa (Reply 6):
I remember while skating around Gotland last year how we came to an icredibly wide stretch of road not too far from Visby with a great view. I'm beginning to make a connection!

It could possibly be a road/wartime airforce base.
The standard Gripen can take off within 800m and land within 400m.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 16023 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
T-45) with CV capable aircraft to help, too.

Bingo! The T45 was developped from the BAE Hawk..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/T-45_Goshawk_Side-View.jpg/800px-T-45_Goshawk_Side-View.jpg

and Saab has an alliance with BAE. That could help, however Boeing produces the T-45 but even more the Super Hornet, that could be a complication..

http://www.allbusiness.com/company-a...ntracts-bids-public/6171915-1.html


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 15914 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Bingo! The T45 was developped from the BAE Hawk..

The Navy had all sorts of problems modiyfying it for carrier use. It eneded up costing a lot more than they originally thought and took longer. That was with a company that had years of carrier aircraft expereince.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 7):
The F-14 doesn't seem to have any pitch at all...


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Photo © Scott Rathbone



That picture was taken at the very end of the cat stroke. RIght after that picture was taken the nose gear would uncompress and the nose would pitch up.

Quoting SAS A340 (Thread starter):
The Swedish system with road bases has made great demands on the possibility of land on narrow roads and short runways. An environment that is similar to what happens on an aircraft carrier, he says.

Not that similar. There are some slow motion videos out there of carrier aircraft landing. Watch them and see the punishment they take.

[Edited 2010-01-15 17:09:11]

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29805 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 15842 times:

The other country that could possibly take a really hard look at this aircraft is Brazil.

They are still flogging A-4's on their carrier.

Good aircraft but very very long in the tooth.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Bingo! The T45 was developped from the BAE Hawk..

I don't think it would be that far of a leap to have BAE take the carrier features from the T-45 and incorperate them into a version of either the Hawk 100 or 200 aircarft with their combat features.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 15789 times:



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 10):
That picture was taken at the very end of the cat stroke. RIght after that picture was taken the nose gear would uncompress and the nose would pitch up.

I was using the picture to underline what KC135TopBoom said about the artistic impression i posted above. That 'picture' was also 'taken at the very end of the cat stroke.' It even has both wheel on the tarmac, the F-14 has one off the edge.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 10):
Not that similar. There are some slow motion videos out there of carrier aircraft landing. Watch them and see the punishment they take.

I think Mr. Nilsson was referring to the requirements to make the very difficult approach while landing on an aircraft carrier. I would think the sink rate is far higher while landing on a carrier than on a road base, causing greater stress to the hull. Thus, the increased empty weight of around 400kg.

Quote:
I challenge any existing deck-based fighter to perform a night landing in severe conditions with snow or rain and strong crosswinds on a Swedish standard road-base strip of 17 x 800 meters...

The requirements were set to 9 x 600 m.


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15772 times:



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 10):
Quoting SAS A340 (Thread starter):
The Swedish system with road bases has made great demands on the possibility of land on narrow roads and short runways. An environment that is similar to what happens on an aircraft carrier, he says.

Not that similar. There are some slow motion videos out there of carrier aircraft landing. Watch them and see the punishment they take.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jan Mogren - AirPixPro

Something like this?  Wink ,the plane was in for inspection and shown no damage what so ever,but i see your point.



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15646 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
But not a very accurate picture. It shows the Sea GripenNG coming off the slant cat on a Nimitz class CVN. With a Cat assisted TO link (the rod stickin out forward of the nose gear), the airplane would not reach such a nose high attitude, it would be level or a max of about 2-3 degrees above a level attitude.

Whoever made the image, probably used this image of a Rafale being launched from the USS Enterprise for inspiration.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/French_Rafale_M_launch_from_USS_Enterprise.jpg

As you can see, the nose is quite high.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15631 times:

Unfortunately nobody wants cheap-but-expensive single-engined aircraft with short legs (range) to use off of their carriers. India just begun to take delivery of their order of MiG-29K's from Russia, and if they wanted to compliment what remains to be a chimerical carrier fleet, their are far more logical alternatives such as the Super Hornet, Rafale, or Su-27 navalized variants. Even the F-35C will go against the logical commandments of carrier aviation by having just one engine, but at least it will have decent range.

User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 867 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 15544 times:



Quoting Acheron (Reply 14):
Whoever made the image, probably used this image of a Rafale being launched from the USS Enterprise for inspiration.

IIRC the Rafale were only doing touch and gos, they didn't actually get launched of the deck so it probably isn't an accurate replication.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4689 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15511 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
Unfortunately nobody wants cheap-but-expensive single-engined aircraft with short legs (range) to use off of their carriers.

The Gripen NG's range will be quite good. Among others, it was modified to carry substantially more internal fuel.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15479 times:



Quoting Ozair (Reply 16):
IIRC the Rafale were only doing touch and gos, they didn't actually get launched of the deck so it probably isn't an accurate replication.

They were launched too.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/Ent%20deck%201.jpg



User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 15470 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 12):
I was using the picture to underline what KC135TopBoom said about the artistic impression i posted above. That 'picture' was also 'taken at the very end of the cat stroke.' It even has both wheel on the tarmac, the F-14 has one off the edge.

Here's what I mean about the nose pitching up when the nose strut uncompressing on the Tomcat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQIYAJvzNxY&feature=related

Quoting TGIF (Reply 12):
I would think the sink rate is far higher while landing on a carrier than on a road base

A lot higher.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 13):
Something like this? ,the plane was in for inspection and shown no damage what so ever,but i see your point.

More like this.  Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fw_Pcmgnus

Quoting Acheron (Reply 14):
Whoever made the image, probably used this image of a Rafale being launched from the USS Enterprise for inspiration.

The French Navy also operated off the Trumman and Roosevelt.


User currently offlineSpudh From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 301 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 15250 times:

Not that I'm doubting you are all correct but there is one distinct difference between all the other Navy aircraft and the Gripen/Rafale. The Canard arrangement is going to have a big effect on the pitch rate at the end of the cat stroke.
All previous Navy aircraft that I can think of have relied on a negative lift downward moment from the tail to generate pitch up at the end of the cat stroke whereas the Rafale and Gripen will both have positive lift from the canards. This will likely lead to a different attitude coming off the ramp (although I doubt it will look as dramatic as the artist impression).


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 867 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15139 times:



Quoting Acheron (Reply 18):
They were launched too.

Cheers, some nice photos too!


User currently offlineJoeinTX From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 14187 times:

"Even the F-35C will go against the logical commandments of carrier aviation by having just one engine, but at least it will have decent range..."

Well, of course it will. Except for the: A-4 Skyhawk, A-7 Corsair II, the F-8 Crusader, the Harrier, Yak-36MP/38, the Etendard/Super Etendard, etc. Note how many very successful and long-serving single-engine carrier aircraft there have been over the last 40 years or so.

Modern jet engine tech being what it is is also largely belying the traditional belief in the necessity of a multi-engine aircraft being necessary for carrier operation.

What I don't really understand about the Gripen NG is it's target customers.................India and Brazil? India has the moribund yet still forging ahead LCA in the very same class for the very same purpose. I suppose SAAB/BAE was hoping to roll a FAB contract for Gripens into a potential opporunity for a handful of naval Gripens? Again, India's LCA is more apt for the Sao Paulo than the Gripen in all terms.........cost, complexity, etc.

Gripen NG can't be the "big" airplane on a carrier for countries looking for primary aircraft and it can't be the budget solution for smaller contracts since it's already too expensive for them.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7563 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13913 times:



Quoting JoeinTX (Reply 22):

What I don't really understand about the Gripen NG is it's target customers.................India and Brazil? India has the moribund yet still forging ahead LCA in the very same class for the very same purpose.

I was of the understanding that the Sea Gripen was the result of a request from India to Saab for a navalised Gripen, I'm pretty sure it wasn't entirely Saabs idea.


User currently offlineDaveflys0509 From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 87 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13634 times:



Quoting JoeinTX (Reply 22):
Modern jet engine tech being what it is is also largely belying the traditional belief in the necessity of a multi-engine aircraft being necessary for carrier operation.

True, but almost all the carrier aviators I know would prefer to have two engines, if something mechanical were to happen while flying over the ocean there's another engine to prevent you from going swimming with the sharks. On a side note the T-45 has a very reliable engine (rolls royce), however they still continue to put three or four in the ground a year, that number would easily be half if it had two engines.


25 JoeinTX : "that number would easily be half if it had two engines...." Possibly. The same could be said regarding the total number of aircraft bought as a resul
26 LMP737 : With the sort of carrier ops the Indian Navy is going to be conducting that would leave out the Super Hornet and Rafale.
27 spudh : What's so different about Indian set up that the most established and successful navy fighters out there are unsuitable?
28 LMP737 : The future INS Vikramaditya uses a ski jump.
29 spudh : US Navy toyed with ski jumps before. I've got pics somewhere of a Tomcat taking off from one. I've a feeling the AF did too in case a runway had bomb
30 EBJ1248650 : Is India perhaps looking for a way to make a shift away from buying French supplied arms to buying from another more responsive source. Rafale or Supe
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