kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The first two aircraft flew last year, T2 just got a new radar (Boeing site news).. and a new torpedo for this application was announced at the Singapore Airshow (Flightglobal report). However there seems to be nothing on the web about the flight test status of these planes.
flybaurLAX From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 633 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I have no clue about the schedule of test flights or it's progress, but I saw it out on the ramp at Boeing Field yesterday on my approach to SEA from the jumpseat in a 737. I saw it next to a 787. I suppose if it's out there, it must be getting close to flying.
flybaurLAX From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 633 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
So, I may have seen the wrong thing when I came in last weekend. I thought I saw the P-8, but I believe it would have had to fly from Renton to BFI in order to be there. I was at the Museum of Flight today, and saw 2 Turkish Air Force 737s there, so maybe these are the grey a/c I saw.
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The first P-8A is inside the BCA flight test hangar at Boeing field. It was out on the commercial airplanes flightline earlier last week with flight test instruments on the tail. It flew four or five times in October using the callsign "SCORE 85," but hasn't flown since.
The second and third (airworthy) P-8A's are inside the developmental centere hangar across the street from the Boeing military ramp. Both the second and third planes haven't flown since their first flights, which were in June and September, respectively. Currently, there are no airworthy P-8A's being assembled at Renton.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I don't see a USN P-8A in the pisture, or the Turkish AF B-737-AEW aircraft. That is a picture of the RAAF B-737-AEW-Wedgetail. It is carrying the FAA reg. N35BBJ, which I think is Wedgetail airplane #5. I don't recall this airplane flying yet, either.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 3): Both the second and third planes haven't flown since their first flights, which were in June and September, respectively.
And if the A/C are at Boeing Field instead of Renton they had to fly at least once, no?
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 5): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
#2 and #3 have yet to fly their FF.
I think you missed this:
Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 3):
Both the second and third planes haven't flown since their first flights, which were in June and September, respectively.
And if the A/C are at Boeing Field instead of Renton they had to fly at least once, no?
flybaurLAX From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 633 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4): I don't see a USN P-8A in the pisture, or the Turkish AF B-737-AEW aircraft. That is a picture of the RAAF B-737-AEW-Wedgetail. It is carrying the FAA reg. N35BBJ, which I think is Wedgetail airplane #5. I don't recall this airplane flying yet, either.
Gotchya, there was the one (pictured), that I see now says RAAF, but there was one to the right of it yesterday that said Turkish Air Force. I didn't see these guys last weekend when I flew overhead jumpseating, but did see a darker grey, so possibly that was the P-8.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 3): The first P-8A is inside the BCA flight test hangar at Boeing field. It was out on the commercial airplanes flightline earlier last week with flight test instruments on the tail. It flew four or five times in October using the callsign "SCORE 85," but hasn't flown since.
The second and third (airworthy) P-8A's are inside the developmental centere hangar across the street from the Boeing military ramp. Both the second and third planes haven't flown since their first flights, which were in June and September, respectively. Currently, there are no airworthy P-8A's being assembled at Renton
thanks.. that's more than I could get from my ME contacts at Boeing..
Quoting flybaurLAX (Reply 7): Gotchya, there was the one (pictured), that I see now says RAAF, but there was one to the right of it yesterday that said Turkish Air Force. I didn't see these guys last weekend when I flew overhead jumpseating, but did see a darker grey, so possibly that was the P-8.
The RAAF is an Australian Wedgetail... P-8's dont have that dorsal fin
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Apparently the USN P-8A #1 just completed a month long vibration test of the wing mounted weapons stores.
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
YP003 (P-8A T2) was towed across East Marginal Way to the Boeing military ramp at 0400 PST this morning. I didn't see any noticeable external modifications from when I last saw it in June.
Zkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4739 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting flybaurLAX (Reply 2): So, I may have seen the wrong thing when I came in last weekend. I thought I saw the P-8, but I believe it would have had to fly from Renton to BFI in order to be there. I was at the Museum of Flight today, and saw 2 Turkish Air Force 737s there, so maybe these are the grey a/c I saw.
Yes there are some Turkish 737s but I think they are for VIP transport or something.
The 737 in the pic is the RAAF (Australian) Wedgetail... its an AWACS/Over the horizon radar type platform.
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
In early Feb T-1 was outside at the North end of Boeing Field for about 12 hours. You probobly saw that one. It went immediatly back inside the big Boeing hangar at the North end of the field. A really close look would have revealed its underwing surprises.
P8A radar is APY-10.
This week T-1 and T-2 both relocated to the Military Flight Center and are basking outdoors there right now. They are side by side in stalls at the Military Flight Center.
One more (T-3) lurks close by, waiting for its oppurtunity to escape the build hangar. The 2 static test (S-1, S-2) birds are safely in their steel fixtures in Renton. There was a recent successful mile stone of 150 percent load.
Along side the 2 P8As at the South end, there is 1 Austrailian AEWC (Wedgetail) and 1 Turkish AEWC (Peace Eagle) in residence and both are flying regularly. There are occaisional visits of targets visiting the MFC ramp to support the AEWC testing. There are 5 additional Wedgetails currently in Austrailia, and 3 additional Peace Eagles in Turkey.
Of course there is the resident E3 AWACS that flys regularly, and the 757 flying test bed flying regularly.
The P8 is on schedule, and will have 3 full up models in flight testing shortly.
Ironicly since the P8s have moved outdoors, the P3 Orion training traffic at Boeing field has increased dramaticly. The Navy bubbas trying to glimpse the future, ya know.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting drewski2112 (Reply 16): Sure did. Left at 1600 with N416X and returned back to BFI at 1800. Terrible weather for both takeoff and landing. Here's my pic from yesterday:
Good picture, thanks..are you going to upload it to the A.net photo file
Also heard the the a/c will head to Patuxent River by the end of the month for formal flight test
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 32767 times:
After a failed attempt yesterday due to weather conditions (for some reason they don't like to fly through clouds), T-1 left at 0645 PDT today for NHK. They were only cleared up to FL230.
I was up there last week (last Sat and Sun) and it was in fact out of the hanger. When my buddy and I were at the Museum it was parked facing to the north. It was completely surround with orange tape to prevent any un-welcomed guest. I didn't see much security, but I am sure it was there. Great looking wing on the P-8.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
P-8A T-2 (cn 34396/2814) flew yesterday afternoon as "SCORE 97" on a BFI round robin. No chase planes like we saw with T-1's flights. This was T-2's first, and second ever, flight in literally a year (first flight was on 5 June 2009).
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
P8 no longer requires chase to fly. The ATC system can now handle P8 without chase. T1 is in Maryland, T2 going shortly, T3 in about a month. T4 is in Renton, on assy line 3.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 25, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I am wondering if the success (so far) in the USN P-8A program actually reduces the risk on the proposed KC-767NG program?
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 26, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Slight error with the report. T-2 took off and landed at Boeing Field. The take off from Renton was earlier in the year. T-4 airplane should be taking off from Renton for Boeing field pretty soon.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 27, posted (2 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 29, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28): Could one of those be by any chance this South Korean AF "Peace Eye" AEWC aircraft?.....
they are both Korean...note the Korean characters on he forward fuselage... and the aft logo is Korean
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4423 posts, RR: 1 Reply 30, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 29): they are both Korean...note the Korean characters on he forward fuselage... and the aft logo is Korean
It's the same airplane - I knew - I put the photos together. I was referring to Reply 14's description of the apron scene and inquiring if something was overlooked, and one of the AWACS might actually be RoKAF 06(?) 700 (N735JS).
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 31, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 30): It's the same airplane - I knew - I put the photos together. I was referring to Reply 14's description of the apron scene and inquiring if something was overlooked, and one of the AWACS might actually be RoKAF 06(?) 700 (N735JS).
sorry misread your question... I was over there late Feb and didn't see the Korean unit out on the field...
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 33, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I have discovered that that is the only Korean Wedgetail to be modified in Seattle, the rest will be done in Korea from kits.
it's strange with all the whoop-la that some military programs seem to get, both the P-8 and the wedgetail stay under the radar (no pun intended)
N92R03 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 250 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Somewhat off topic but...
The hangar/simulator bay in Jacksonville is being built. Projected completion is about a year away.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 35, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Has the USN announced basing plans for the 108 P-8As, besides JAX?
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 36, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35): Has the USN announced basing plans for the 108 P-8As, besides JAX?
Found this on the web
"From Defense Aerospace
P-8A Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft Homebasing Announced
(Source: US Department of Defense; issued Jan. 02, 2009)
The Department of the Navy announced today its decision to provide facilities and functions to base five fleet squadrons of the P-8A Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) with a fleet replacement squadron (FRS) at Naval Air Station (NAS) Jacksonville, Fla., four fleet squadrons at NAS Whidbey Island, Wash., and three fleet squadrons at Marine Corps Base Hawaii Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii, with periodic squadron detachment operations at NAS North Island."
BTW, the interior of the P-8A looks pretty nice compared to the P-3 (age wear and tear not withstanding). And instead of a couple of fold up bunks for crew rest, you get a couple of lay flat seats. Don't know if they come with IFE.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 37, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Boeing Commercial and Boeing Military have swapped some properties so the old Thompson site (previous life as 737 assembly and then propulsion division) will become the P-8 systems installation facility. Commercial got the Developmental Center and all the big autoclaves... will they make the 737 replacement fuselage there or components.
I think this closes the possibility of F-22 component manufacture.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 38, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 37): Commercial got the Developmental Center and all the big autoclaves... will they make the 737 replacement fuselage there or components.
Don't forget the big fiber placed machines. Having taken over the DC and all the composite capabilities there, it would lead one to conclude that Boeing Commercial is leaning toward a composite fuselage for 737 and the DC will be where it is developed. There is not enough space there for rate production.
Quoting kanban (Reply 37): will become the P-8 systems installation facility
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 41, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 39): How do those who will fly/operate the new aircraft view the move from the P3C?
Well, they will get . . .
- a new lav
- a new galley
- lay flat crew rest seat instead of fold down cots
- large LCD screens
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting SHAQ (Reply 42): Can this a/c be refueled air-to-air ?
Yes on recieving fuel as built right now, and conceptually eventually able to deliver fuel in the long term.
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 39): How do those who will fly/operate the new aircraft view the move from the P3C?.
Test crews are ecstatic about it, they wish the SDD (system design and development) phase could be shrunk and get it in to the operational test and evaluation phase much sooner. Issues do exist, primarily with testing the mission profile which requires a 737 to do things nobody envisioned when the origional 737 design was put to paper, getting the bits and bites talking the same language in the mission system. Crew comfort is miles ahead of the P3, and the open architecture data systems allow mission, sensor, and weapons growth to occur with a data load rather than a complete redesign of the aircraft and consoles. T4 will be the first operational test unit, and as planned now will go to PAX River for operation by the 2 Navy test and evaluation squadrons for crew training and deveopment.
Recent anouncent of milestone "C" commits the Navy to two waves of LRIP (low rate initial production) production, with 7 airplanes per wave. LRIP 1 and 2 is where the first P8Is will appear. LRIP is where Boeing proves to the Navy that the production system can actually deliver the promised full rate.
Quoting SHAQ (Reply 42): I hope the USAF buys also the Wedgetail 737
Imagine the Wedgetail MESA system on a P8. The article could support that with enough electricity and engineering investment
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1063 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
On the subject of the P-8, it appears that the Indians want to add to their order. The Indians are planning an additional 4 P-8i's through exercising of an option for $1 billion dollars US.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 45, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Eskimotail (Reply 43):
Imagine the Wedgetail MESA system on a P8.
You would have to chose: Sonobuoy launchers/bomb bay or Mesa Radar. Both system will not fit in the back of the airplane.
Even if the Wedgetail can do what it was advertised to do, I heard that the US Air Force was not interested. I think the platform is too small. For a while, they were looking at a wide body aircraft to include both an airborne and ground search radar (E-10A plus a MESA type antenna on a non rotating disc). All of that was to be temporary anyway until the Air Force gets space based radar.
Boeing is pitching the P-8 variant with a ground search radar (similar to the Rivet Joint). Imagine a "Rivet Joint" aircraft with attack capability (bomb bay and wing pod)!
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The fourth P-8A (cn 40594/3324) flew out of RNT today as BOE6A. This is the first production frame.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 47, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 48, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 49, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 41): Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 39):
How do those who will fly/operate the new aircraft view the move from the P3C?
Well, they will get . . .
- a new lav
- a new galley
- lay flat crew rest seat instead of fold down cots
- large LCD screens
bikerthai
And the pilots will get a logbook filled with 737 time, which will be damn nice thing to have if they are thinking about a nice post-military career with the airlines.
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 51, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 50): I wonder if this will be the first P-8A to be worked at the Thompson site.
if we told you we'd have to shoot you... actually I believe it is...
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 52, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 50): I wonder if this will be the first P-8A to be worked at the Thompson site
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 53, posted (2 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 54, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
[i]The new building obviously wasn't purpose-built for the P-8. One giveaway is the extremely tight clearance between the vertical tail and ceiling and between the wings, walls and beams running down the middle of the plant.[/]
I heard they had to lift the power lines when they towed the plane across the street to the new plant. Also, they had to do some "special" things to get the plane through the hangar door.
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The crossing from the airport to the Thompson site, based on Google earth, shows it at 114ft thanks to Hangar 89 that went up this summer. The 737NG wingspan is 118ft, while the P-8A w/ raked winglets is 124ft.
As you can see from my very rough image above, they certainly did have to be creative! Looks like they took off the raked winglets in the PI picture, just like they did with the 747-8F when the moved that plane in the 3-390 bldg.
YP007 is due for a mid-December 2010 roll out at RNT. It probably won't fly until early February 2011 would be my guess.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 57, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The PI picture seems to imply this will be a moving line, are they bringing the birds in the back of the building? I didn't think there was room to come in that way...
Am still puzzled by the PI's statement that there were B-29's built in this building....
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16250 posts, RR: 52 Reply 58, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 35): Has the USN announced basing plans for the 108 P-8As, besides JAX?
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 36): Found this on the web
"From Defense Aerospace
P-8A Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft Homebasing Announced
(Source: US Department of Defense; issued Jan. 02, 2009)
The Department of the Navy announced today its decision to provide facilities and functions to base five fleet squadrons of the P-8A Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) with a fleet replacement squadron (FRS) at Naval Air Station (NAS) Jacksonville, Fla., four fleet squadrons at NAS Whidbey Island, Wash., and three fleet squadrons at Marine Corps Base Hawaii Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii, with periodic squadron detachment operations at NAS North Island."
A couple questions,
First is it 108 or 117, I've heard all along it will be 108 but now I'm reading 117;
Now even if you take the lower number, 108, the squadrons they've announced so far do not add up to 108 aircraft. They add up to about 78 aircraft. According to everything I've read they're going to have 6 aircraft per squadron;
So according to the Navy's basing decision they have plans for
4 squadrons at Whidbey Island (6 * 4 = 24 aircraft)
3 squadrons at Kanahoe Bay (6 * 3 = 18)
5+1 squadrons at Jacksonville (6 * 6 = 36 aircraft)
That's a total of 78 aircraft, obviously there's something missing;
Possible answers I've come up with:
The 117 (or 108) includes replacing the EP-3E, however it's not mentioned anywhere that they are replacing them with P-8s. The EP-3E replacement was a different program, even if you include the EP-3E replacement that's 11 aircraft (assuming a one for one replacement). That brings that 78 number to 89, but I'm still not convinced that the EP-3E replacement is part of this program order.
That brings me to my other thought;
That the additional aircraft not dedicated to squadrons already identified will be to reestablish reserve patrol squadrons, the reserve patrol squadrons of P-3s were disbanded around 2006/2007 due to the need to replace older active duty P-3 with lower cycle reserve aircraft. Prior to the Reserve squadrons being stood down there were 6 reserve patrol squadrons (1 Whidbey Island, 1 Point Mugu, 1 JRB New Orleans, 1 Jacksonville, 2 JRB Willow Grove). At 6 aircraft per squadron that 36 aircraft, add those possible 36 reserve aircraft to the 78 already identified and it brings us to 114 aircraft. More than the 108, but a little less than the 117 in the aforementioned articles.
Personally I would really like to believe that the Navy is indeed bringing back the Reserve Patrol Squadrons, the basing could be identical to the Reserve P-3 basing save Willow Grove. JRB Willow Grove is closing in 2011, the Navy/Marine Corps and Army Reserve aviation assets are moving to Joint Base McGuire/Dix/Lakehurst. The Navy's new mega hangar at McGuire is well underway, it should be completed by June.
The Navy could base their Reserve Patrol Squadrons as such;
1 Squadron Whidbey Island, 1 Squadron Point Mugu, 1 Squadron JRB New Orleans, 1 Squadron Jacksonville, 2 Squadrons Joint Base McGuire/Dix/Lakehurst.
Ozair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 661 posts, RR: 1 Reply 59, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 58): The 117 (or 108) includes replacing the EP-3E, however it's not mentioned anywhere that they are replacing them with P-8s. The EP-3E replacement was a different program, even if you include the EP-3E replacement that's 11 aircraft (assuming a one for one replacement). That brings that 78 number to 89, but I'm still not convinced that the EP-3E replacement is part of this program order.
Didn't the Navy recently announce that they would b e holding on to some P-3s as the P-8 hadn't been approved for special mission aircraft yet? I'm struggling to find the link but I am sure I saw it somewhere.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 58): So according to the Navy's basing decision they have plans for
4 squadrons at Whidbey Island (6 * 4 = 24 aircraft)
3 squadrons at Kanahoe Bay (6 * 3 = 18)
5+1 squadrons at Jacksonville (6 * 6 = 36 aircraft)
That's a total of 78 aircraft, obviously there's something missing;
Would aircraft permanently based in the Middle East be included in this total?
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16250 posts, RR: 52 Reply 60, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Ozair (Reply 59): Would aircraft permanently based in the Middle East be included in this total?
There are no P-3s permanently based overseas, there are detachment bases that host squadrons rotated in from bases in the US. Overseas P-3 detachments are;
Naval Air station Sigonella, Italy
Naval Support activity Bahrain
Naval Support activity Qatar
Naval Support Activity Oman
Naval Air Field Misawa, Japan
Kadena AB, Japan
Hato IAP, Curacao
Comlapa AB, El Salvador
These overseas detachments have Navy patrol squadrons rotating in to maintain a constant presence, however the aircraft and crews are not permanently assigned to those bases.
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 57):
Am still puzzled by the PI's statement that there were B-29's built in this building....
From everything I've been told, the Thompson site was a purpose built factory for the 737 line. They started making 737's there in late 1967 and stopped in 1970 when they moved production over to RNT. It's been a Boeing laboratory until last year as I recall.
They may have been thinking of Boeing Renton's 4-20 bldg where they assembled B-29's, 707's, 727's, classic 737's and now P-8A's.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 62, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
thought the B-29's were only from Plant II and the KC135s, 377/C97's were from Renton...
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 65, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 58): First is it 108 or 117, I've heard all along it will be 108 but now I'm reading 117;
I think the 117 is the result of 108 Production birds + 9 test frames.
The test frames include T1, through T8 and the static test bird.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 66, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 65): I think the 117 is the result of 108 Production birds + 9 test frames.
The test frames include T1, through T8 and the static test bird.
Correction:
Flying Test frames are T1 through T6. S1 and S2 are static and fatigue frames. I think the Navy did not want the extra test frame and did select an old Southwest 737 for the live fire test.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 67, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Update:
"The P-8A Poseidon program has completed full-scale static testing"
"Although static testing is complete, the airframe still has work to do in support of the P-8 program. Beginning in September, the airframe will be reconfigured as a live-fire test article."
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 68, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
nice video of a touch and go plus a low pass at Paine Field from KPAE Blogspot
njgtr82 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 121 posts, RR: 1 Reply 69, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
There was one flying off the coast on NJ today on a flight from and back to Pax River this afternoon
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 70, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quote:
The fourth test airplane is having its military systems installed at a new P-8 line inside the old Thompson site building across Marginal Way from Boeing Field. The fifth test airplane arrived at Boeing Field from Renton on Saturday and will this week transfer to the Thompson site. The sixth flight test airplane is under assembly in Renton.
The first ground test airplane completed the static tests required for certification this month. In September, that plane will be refurbished and converted for use in live-fire target practice at Naval Air Warfare Center, China Lake, Calif.
Boeing is also assembling the first P-8 for the Indian Navy, which ordered eight of the jets. The Australian Navy is working closely with the U.S. Navy on the program and is also expected to order the P-8.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 71, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 70):
Seattle Times: Navy inks $1.6B contract for initial P-8 Poseidon production planes
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16250 posts, RR: 52 Reply 72, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quote: e U.S. Navy plans to purchase 117 production P-8A aircraft to replace its P-3 Fleet. IOC is planned for 2013 at NAS Jacksonville, Fla.
Again they're mentioning 117, not 108.
As quoted in reply 36;
five squadrons at Jacksonville
One fleet replacement squadron at Jacksonville
four squadrons at Whidbey Island
three squadrons at Kaneohe Bay
I've understood Patrol squadrons to be equipped with 7 aircraft, is that correct?.. If so 7 aircraft x 13 squadrons equals 91 aircraft. Leaving 26 aircraft unaccounted for, the only ideas I can come up with are;
9 aircraft squadrons (most likely), or reserve squadrons. Personally I wish they would maintain 7 aircraft per squadron, and add three reserve squadrons (Point Mugu, JRB New Orleans, Joint Base McGuire/Dix/Lakehurst).
dahawaiian From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 226 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Possibly 24 more P-8's for Kaneohe Bay? They might as well reopen NAS Barbers Point.
The article's information is a bit confusing, I think as it stands now 117 P-8s are planned to deploy with 13 squadrons (3 Kaneohe Bay, 4 Whidbey Island, 6 Jacksonville). That's 9 aircraft per squadron.
Kaneohe Bay 3 squadrons = 27 P-8s
Whidbey ISland 4 Squadrons = 36 P-8s
Jacksonville 6 squadrons = 54 P-8s
I don't see where Kaneohe Bay could handle 63 P-8s, which is what a full redeployment from Whidbey Island to Kaneohe Bay would bring. I think what they could do, perhaps is indeed what the Navy is studying, would be to take the fourth squadron from Whidbey Island and deploy them out of Kaneohe Bay. 4 squadrons of 36 P-8s is reasonable for Kaneohe Bay considering one or two Squadrons will always be deployed to support detachments in Bahrain, Guam, Japan etc..
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 76, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 77, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Himself (Reply 74): I wonder if the Navy are planning to lend the extra P-8s to the Army for their ISR needs in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Lets hope that we are out of Afghanistan before that.
Personally I hope the Army/Airforce buy this instead:
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 78, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I'm hearing rumors that Boeing is about to erect some new manufacturing buildings in Renton... don't know if these are 737 (P-8) support or 787 or 767 tanker ...
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 79, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 78): I'm hearing rumors that Boeing is about to erect some new manufacturing buildings in Renton... don't know if these are 737 (P-8) support or 787 or 767 tanker
These are primarily to support 737 production rate increases....
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4423 posts, RR: 1 Reply 80, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 33): I have discovered that that is the only Korean Wedgetail to be modified in Seattle, the rest will be done in Korea from kits.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 81, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 80): I assume that protrusion under the tail to be the sensor that will provide rearward coverage?
Yes, but not part of the MESA radar system. If you have a Hi Res copy of flight international cut away poster, it will tell you what that system is. My copy is too fuzzy.
Beiaard From United States of America, joined May 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (2 years 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 32570 times:
Being from Jacksonville, the hum of those Allison T56s and big Hamilton Standard props are like a mother's lullaby to me. That said, I'm excited for the EIS of the P-8. Anybody know the exact date (or window) for the first arrivals to NAS Jax, and to what squadron it will be delivered?
Also, how are they doing the training for them? Sims, I presume, but are there simulators at, for instance, NAS Jax and Kaneohe Bay, or are the future pilots having to go to Renton or otherwise to learn to fly these new machines?
Tolling the bells of the Swamp to delight the Common Spirit
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 31652 times:
A small peek into the P-8A Military Line. This is where the mission equipment are installed after BCA delivers the aircraft from Renton to Boeing Field.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 29989 times:
Quoting Beiaard (Reply 82): Anybody know the exact date (or window) for the first arrivals to NAS Jax, and to what squadron it will be delivered?
According to kanban's link:
Quote:
Boeing will deliver LRIP-1 to the Navy next year in preparation for initial operational capability, which is planned for 2013.
"This is the first P-8 that will go directly to the fleet in Jacksonville, Fla., so the aircraft's first flight is an important milestone for the Boeing team and our Navy customer," said Chuck Dabundo, Boeing vice president and P-8 program manager. "We're on plan to get LRIP-1 to the Navy in 2012."
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 86, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 28281 times:
Matt has captured video of the first Indian P-8I in flight test. http://kpae.blogspot.com/ Good to see this baby in the air and I must admit I thought they were smoking something when the schedules were released.
Quote: "ATLANTIC OCEAN --- On Sept. 15, the bridge watch team aboard the guided-missile destroyer USS Laboon (DDG 58) watches as a P-8A Poseidon executes low level surveillance rigs at 500 feet with a speed of more than 300 knots.
This is the first coordinated test evaluation and training conducted between a surface ship and the new anti-submarine warfare (ASW) platform on the East Coast.
Laboon crewmembers had control of the Poseidon for four hours providing safety of flight and a point of reference as they conduct radar and combat systems testing. The testing was part of establishing a maximum target detection range of various radar modes against a surface combatant."
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 26259 times:
"At a later date, it was planned to acquire 12 more P-8Is for offshore surveillance and protection of the Indian waters and interests, bringing the total to 24, Verma added."
They must like what they see coming out of PAX River.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 90, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 24191 times:
Maybe Bikerthai can shed some light on it's meeting cost and schedule.. it was close and the fact that the Boeing blurb doesn't specifically address it may only mean they are measuring only the initial contract completion numbers and we'll only know when #13 is delivered how they performed.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 91, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24056 times:
Quote:
Hitherto, the Indian Navy has been using old, Soviet-vintage maritime reconnaissance aircraft. But, after the 26/11 terror attack on Mumbai, the government cleared the first eight P-8Is within three months of the horror. Four more were cleared earlier this year.
...
Verma said that the P-8I is the most advanced LRMR platform with a capability to observe even small boats and destroy hostile submarines. India is the first export customer for this aircraft, and the advantage is that India will benefit from the hi-tech systems being developed for the US Navy, which has ordered 117 aircraft.
Ok, it can observe small boats like the terrorists used, but how would it stop them? A Harpoon would seem to be overkill. I suppose it could just do surveillance till a more suitable craft arrived on the scene.
In any case, it's a great asset to have. It's not like the US taxpayers didn't get their money's worth out of the P3s!
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 409 posts, RR: 1 Reply 92, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 23945 times:
Quoting Drewski2112 (Reply 56): As you can see from my very rough image above, they certainly did have to be creative! Looks like they took off the raked winglets in the PI picture, just like they did with the 747-8F when the moved that plane in the 3-390 bldg.
Ya i know its a little late... But... talking about clearances with the P-8...
At Pax River, they had to cut the doors of the hangar so they could fit two P-8's in the hangar at once. So when two are in, one is fully inside while the other has its empennage outside the hangar.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 93, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 23801 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 91): Ok, it can observe small boats like the terrorists used, but how would it stop them?
Hopefully they will eventually be able to deploy SDBII which would work well against slow moving boats. For the faster boats, you can always do a low buzz and let the jet wash flip them over.
As Boeing is pitching the P-8 Variant to the Air Force for Rivet Joint replacement, I'm sure they can configure the aircraft for a variety of smaller weapons for smaller targets.
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 94, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 23406 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 75): The article's information is a bit confusing, I think as it stands now 117 P-8s are planned to deploy with 13 squadrons (3 Kaneohe Bay, 4 Whidbey Island, 6 Jacksonville). That's 9 aircraft per squadron.
Kaneohe Bay 3 squadrons = 27 P-8s
Whidbey ISland 4 Squadrons = 36 P-8s
Jacksonville 6 squadrons = 54 P-8s
I don't see where Kaneohe Bay could handle 63 P-8s, which is what a full redeployment from Whidbey Island to Kaneohe Bay would bring. I think what they could do, perhaps is indeed what the Navy is studying, would be to take the fourth squadron from Whidbey Island and deploy them out of Kaneohe Bay. 4 squadrons of 36 P-8s is reasonable for Kaneohe Bay considering one or two Squadrons will always be deployed to support detachments in Bahrain, Guam, Japan etc..
I know it probably won't happen but what about NAS North Island? With the S-3 Vikings gone there's open space and there already is a VR squadron that operates out of NI. Like I said though, probably won't happen.
StudeDave From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0 Reply 95, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 23350 times:
Quoting LMP737 (Reply 94): I know it probably won't happen but what about NAS North Island? With the S-3 Vikings gone there's open space and there already is a VR squadron that operates out of NI. Like I said though, probably won't happen.
It has been over three years since I retired and left NAS North Island, but before I left I visited a few friends who where standing up some of the new 'HSM' squadrons. They were taking over the hangers left empty by the VS guys.
But there's no doubt you'll see these new birds in the skys around the base-
the P3 detachments were always in and out of there...
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 96, posted (1 year 2 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 22993 times:
Quoting StudeDave (Reply 95): It has been over three years since I retired and left NAS North Island, but before I left I visited a few friends who where standing up some of the new 'HSM' squadrons. They were taking over the hangers left empty by the VS guys.
Your info is more up to date than mine still. I got out almost twenty years ago! Guess it would make little sense to have three bases on the west coast with P-8's and only one on the east. Unless they decide to close Whidbey Island.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 97, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 22372 times:
I thought I heard a second operational unit has now been delivered to the Navy.. can anyone confirm
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 98, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 22261 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 97): I thought I heard a second operational unit has now been delivered to the Navy.. can anyone confirm
Please clarify.
LRIP1-1 was delivered to the Navy earlier this month. They just had the "official" ceremony this week.
Don't think LRIP1-2 have flown to JAX yet. I could be wrong.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 99, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 22247 times:
LRIP1-1 delivered 3-6 don't know the line number, then line 2931 was reported flown to Elgin 3-20... maybe that isn't a delivery...
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 100, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 22218 times:
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 101, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 22224 times:
Drewski2112 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 102, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 22350 times:
As of 31 March 2012:
United States Navy test frames:
YP001 - BuNo 167951 (cn 34394/2599). First flight 15 April 2009.
YP003 - BuNo 167953 (cn 34396/2814). First flight 05 June 2009
YP004 - BuNo 167954 (cn 34397/2931). First flight 29 September 2009.
YP006 - BuNo 167952 (cn 40594/3324). First flight 18 October 2010.
YP007 - BuNo 167955 (cn 40595/3426). First flight 22 January 2011.
YP008 - BuNo 167956 (cn 40596/3522). First flight 23 April 2011.
Test frames which will never fly:
YP002 - (cn 34395/2722) Static test frame.
YP005 - (cn 34398/3069) Fatigue test frame.
United States Navy production frames:
YP009 - BuNo 168428 (cn 40808/3612). First flight 07 July 2011.
YP010 - BuNo 168429 (cn 40809/3792). First flight 20 December 2011.
YP011 - BuNo 168430 (cn 40810/3879). First flight 28 March 2012.
YP012 - BuNo [TBA] (cn 40811/3916). First flight due for late April 2012.
Indian Navy production frames:
YP201 - IN320 (cn 40610/3702). First flight 28 September 2011.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 103, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 22048 times:
I was forwarded some P-8 news articles that might be of interest.. I realize that a program on schedule and on budget with no major systems problems is boring to A.netters.. so bear with me.
Beiaard From United States of America, joined May 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0 Reply 104, posted (1 year 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21894 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 103): I was forwarded some P-8 news articles that might be of interest.. I realize that a program on schedule and on budget with no major systems problems is boring to A.netters.. so bear with me.
Quoting kanban (Reply 103): I was forwarded some P-8 news articles that might be of interest.. I realize that a program on schedule and on budget with no major systems problems is boring to A.netters.. so bear with me.
Thanks for the links. I'll keep an eye on the sky next time I'm home in hopes of seeing one...at the same time, though, I know I'll miss the chest-vibrations that you get when four of those big honkin' Allisons fly right over you. Growing up in Jacksonville, that sensation became something akin to mother's milk.
Tolling the bells of the Swamp to delight the Common Spirit
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 409 posts, RR: 1 Reply 105, posted (1 year 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 21238 times:
Well now that it's finally public information, the p-8 has been at RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland for the last week and will be there till next Saturday as part of the 2012 Exercise Joint Warrior. Ship 956 from VX-1, The Pioneers, is the one that went.
It's my brothers squad and he is heading the maintenance for the trip.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 107, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 20821 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 106): Nice post flightsimer, enjoyed the pictures..
Also has a good overview of what is coming up in Increment 2:
Quote:
The first major upgrade will be Increment 2, but that effort has been split into two parts, says Boeing's P-8 business development director David Robinson. The incremental upgrade is being developed with Australian participation.
The first part of that effort is to equip the aircraft with a new Multi-static Active Coherent (MAC) system, which has been accelerated to be fielded in fiscal year 2014. That will enable the fast, high-flying aircraft to search for enemy submarines over a much larger area with a network of active and passive sonar buoys.
"The major focus is on the anti-submarine warfare," Robinson says. "MAC is a major portion of Increment 2."
The other part of the Increment 2 upgrade includes the Automatic Identification System, which would allow the P-8 to read ships' transponders, plus a new computer architecture to rapidly add new capabilities, a new tactical operations centre (TOC), and a high-altitude anti-submarine warfare (ASW) system.
The high-altitude ASW system, which is a collection of sonar buoys, would enable the P-8 to take a closer look at "areas of interest" generated by the MAC, Robinson says. "You'd be able do both [MAC and high-altitude ASW] at the same time," he says.
It's not clear to me, however, what the difference between MAC and high-level ASW are. Both seem to involve monitoring a network of sonobouys.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 108, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 20775 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 107):
It's not clear to me, however, what the difference between MAC and high-level ASW are.
MAC is the third generation of multi-static active acoustic search systems to be developed under the Multi-statics Family of Systems. MAC brings coherent acoustic source technology (SSQ-125) and improved signal processing to the air multi-static active ASW mission set. The coherent pulses or series of pulses provide waveform flexibility including Doppler-speed sensitive and frequency modulated (FM)-clutter suppressing capabilities. The MAC program will also provide updated tactical and mission software on the P-3C AIP, an updated Mission Planning Tool (MPT), an updated Ground Replay System, updated TacMobile products (SPAWAR), and an updated Tactical Operational Readiness Trainer (TORT).
High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare (HAASW)
HAASW integrates new & modify existing sensors to enhance the P-8A capability to conduct ASW at altitudes up to FL250 and higher. Real time data will be used to update onboard Mission Planning Tools (MPT) for non-acoustic sensor optimization and Tactical Decision Aids (TDAs) for accurate sonobuoy release points.
Sonobuoy modifications include integrating GPS for precise sonobuoy positional information and a digital uplink/downlink for Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) management. New sensors include a Meteorological Sensing Device, (dropsonde) for sensing atmospheric conditions from the aircraft altitude to the surface."
So, MAC is the type of sensor and HAASW is the system to operate at high altitude.
That begs the question . . . how long would it take for a sonobuoy dropped from up high to hit the water?
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 109, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 20630 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 108): That begs the question . . . how long would it take for a sonobuoy dropped from up high to hit the water?
Skydivers use 54 meters/sec as an estimate for terminal velocity, so a 10,000m fall (32.8 k feet) would take 185 seconds, a tad more than three minutes.
And no guarantee it will fall straight down, which I suppose is also one reason for the "Tactical Decision Aids (TDAs) for accurate sonobuoy release points" mentioned above.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 110, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20588 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 109):
Skydivers use 54 meters/sec as an estimate for terminal velocity, so a 10,000m fall (32.8 k feet) would take 185 seconds, a tad more than three minutes.
Are you using the pone position or the dive position?
So if in a clean configuration (no chutes) the buoys would travel at 100+ m/s then it would take about 1-2 minutes to hit the water (they probably would have to deploy some sort of air brakes prior to entry). I guess it's not so bad. . .
Remember those WWII news reels? How long did it take from bomb release to impact?
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 111, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20593 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 110): Are you using the pone position or the dive position?
I'm using a SWAG!
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 110): Remember those WWII news reels? How long did it take from bomb release to impact?
Yep, it was amazing to see not how long they took to fall, but also how unstable they were.
Beiaard From United States of America, joined May 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0 Reply 112, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 20499 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 109): Skydivers use 54 meters/sec as an estimate for terminal velocity, so a 10,000m fall (32.8 k feet) would take 185 seconds, a tad more than three minutes.
I'm an arts and humanities type, so don't mistake this for questioning your knowledge, but wouldn't that terminal velocity only be valid for something shaped like a human?
Tolling the bells of the Swamp to delight the Common Spirit
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 113, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 20460 times:
Quoting Beiaard (Reply 112): I'm an arts and humanities type, so don't mistake this for questioning your knowledge, but wouldn't that terminal velocity only be valid for something shaped like a human?
Your intuition is correct . . .
And as an Engineering Term WAG is "Wild Ass Guess" and a SWAG is just a "Scientific Wild Ass Guess"
Finally looked it up. 54m/s is with arms and legs straight out. Tucked in and vertical, the velocity is about 76m/s.
So the 1-2 minutes estimate is probably "in the ball park"
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 409 posts, RR: 1 Reply 114, posted (10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 17599 times:
Well VX-1 and their P-8 was out of the country again last month in the southern hemisphere but has since returned.
But right now they are a deployment again, only this time out in Hawaii for the 2012 RIM PAC exercise. Most likely they are operating out of Kaneohe Bay which appears to be where the Australian P-3s and Wedgetail along with other nations P-3s are stationed.
My poor brother is living a hard life with all this traveling... So far this year he has been out of the country or away from home for about 3 months cumulative now in exotic or fun places...
And as an Engineering Term WAG is "Wild Ass Guess" and a SWAG is just a "Scientific Wild Ass Guess"
Finally looked it up. 54m/s is with arms and legs straight out. Tucked in and vertical, the velocity is about 76m/s.
So the 1-2 minutes estimate is probably "in the ball park"
bt
I think it depends on shape and density. There is a given air drag for a body, once that Force = mg there is no more acceleration and down she goes. I would actually guess in the 3 to 5 min range as it would want to slow down a lot before hitting the water. Wouldn't want it to go 100' into the water, nor do a 20g impact with 'delicate' electronics followed by a leaking case.
Posted it before and will post again . . . Please keep us updated. It's good to hear what's going on with the P-8 from more than the "official" sources.
At least we are not hearing much about not being able to deploy because of some mechanical malfunction.
Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 115): I would actually guess in the 3 to 5 min range as it would want to slow down a lot before hitting the water.
You would think there would be a parachute/drag chute involved. Question is if the chute is deployed all the time or only at the appropriate altitude.
Ahem, density has nothing to do with it save for surface area exposed to friction. Remember a cannonball will fall at the same speed as a feather in a vacuum. One of Galileo's discoveries IIRC
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 119, posted (10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 17121 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 117): Does anybody know how many have been completed through outfitting and delivered?
Completed P8s
3 Instrumented Flight Test Aircraft to the Integrated Test Team at PAX River
3 full up IOTE aircraft to VX-1 at PAX River
2 full up operational aircraft to VX-30 at Jacksonville
Also:
Why does a sonobouy have to free fall? Google "compressed carriage" to get an idea of just how far a sonobouy could travel before entering the water.
If you could do that with one pass at 20K plus, all the risks go way down.
Batteries eliminate the fuel problem, but it doesn't need to loiter, just travel. Compressed carriage was patented in 1994, so been around awhile.
They already have the potential for having several hundred pounds of high explosives in the cabin. a small quantity of heavy fuel or a hydrogen fuel cell would be of small additional concern and easily mitigated.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 123, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16523 times:
Quoting Eskimotail (Reply 122):
Batteries eliminate the fuel problem, but it doesn't need to loiter, just travel
Quoting Eskimotail (Reply 122):
They already have the potential for having several hundred pounds of high explosives in the cabin.
I'm pretty sure you are not talking about the bomb bay. Other than the oxygen tanks and the aerial refueling lines, I don't know what other explosive/flammable/volatile item in the cabin.
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 409 posts, RR: 1 Reply 124, posted (9 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 16308 times:
Though unless it's been delivered since April, I didn't think VX-1 had the third yet. I thought my brother said they only had 2 but I could be mistaking.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 125, posted (9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16190 times:
Quoting flightsimer (Reply 124): I thought my brother said they only had 2 but I could be mistaking.
There is a little confusion in terminology. One of the test frame was delivered with full configuration and will not return to Boeing for re-furb. I'm not sure if this frame went to PAX or JAX.
There was a recent delivery within the last two weeks. I believe that will make 2 LRIP frames and 1 (maybe 2?) test frame "delivered".
The other frames that are/were at PAX will be re-furbed once the test program is completed and re-delivered later. I'm not sure if they will keep any frame in permanent test configuration for future development.
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 126, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 15977 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 123): I'm pretty sure you are not talking about the bomb bay. Other than the oxygen tanks and the aerial refueling lines, I don't know what other explosive/flammable/volatile item in the cabin.
Some Sonobouy species contain 8 pounds of class A explosives. These are carried in the cabin just like all the others.
I can Guarantee there are 6 assigned to PAX and 2 in JAX. The 3 IOTE birds in PAX can be sent to JAX to fill in as training assets and deploy around the world to wave Poseidons flag. 1 has already come back to Seattle for minor refurb.
3 flight test aircraft fully instrumented conducting the testing for systems and flight characteristics. Remember that none, zero, nada of the "737" flight test data generated over the last 40 plus years is transferable to the Navy. The Integrated Test Team using T1 thru T3 are conducting an entire "737" flight test program from scratch to 2012 standards, as if it was an all new airplane.
3 IOTE aircraft (T4-T6) are used by Navy VX 1 in PAX to train and develop tactics and procedures. These airplanes can hit some test points but are limited by a lack of an instrumentation package. These are the ones that are making the world tour and attending every exercise they can.
2 LRIP aircraft in JAX are assigned to the fleet training squadron and are used to train maintenance and flight crew for the future assignments.
There will always be a handful of P8s assigned to test and development at PAX, even today there are at least a dozen P3 assigned to those roles in PAX. Every new thought on maritime patrol and warfare gets installed and tested on at least 1 airframe. There will be at least 1 airframe of the T1-T3 series that will be fatigued out at the end of its test life.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 127, posted (9 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 16008 times:
Just to supplement Eskimotail's summary, P-8I airframe 1 will be doing ordinance dropping test this summer. Expect to see it take off from Boeing field with test ordinance on the hardpoints. Good luck to all the spotters out there. . .
I think the range they will be using is in Canada?
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 409 posts, RR: 1 Reply 128, posted (9 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 15844 times:
blrsea From India, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 1227 posts, RR: 3 Reply 129, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 15541 times:
stealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5425 posts, RR: 49 Reply 130, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 15437 times:
Quoting flightsimer (Reply 105): The P-8 will also be found outside of the US again in the June-July time frame in a P-3 country.
That big island between New Zealand & Madagascar.. made a splashy PR visit to the capital then on to the West coast to see how effective it was at it's "day job".
Can't comment on how well it did.. details of it's performance are understandably difficult to find in the public domain.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 709 posts, RR: 11 Reply 131, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15436 times:
The P-8 should really represent a major leap in capability for anyone who buys it, particularly in the Pacific with its wide spaces. It will have a massive supply of cheap replacement parts for the most part. It really is a platform optimized for the Pacific though. I can't see a lot of them moving in Europe where refitted P-3's would frankly do most people just as well as a P-8.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 132, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 15426 times:
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 131): refitted P-3's would frankly do most people just as well as a P-8.
Well, a 75 Toyota can probably do just as well as a 2010 Honda on my reuglar commute. Good luck trying to find spare parts for that 75 Toyota.
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 709 posts, RR: 11 Reply 133, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15376 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 132): Well, a 75 Toyota can probably do just as well as a 2010 Honda on my reuglar commute. Good luck trying to find spare parts for that 75 Toyota.
bt
That is why I said Europe. A fair number of them have P-3's already. There will be a lot going to the boneyard from the US from which they could draw parts. Since they will operate a few dozen collectively, if that many, the parts from 150 operational US units should keep them running for quite a while.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 134, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 15359 times:
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 133): There will be a lot going to the boneyard from the US from which they could draw parts. Since they will operate a few dozen collectively, if that many, the parts from 150 operational US units should keep them running for quite a while..
And the replacement parts from the US frames will have how many cycles left in them when they are retired? You would think the US P-3 would have fewer cycles left than those in Europe.
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 133): About the only alternative is to buy P-8's.
There are some cheaper (though less capable) alternative(s).
Boeing is pitching to P-8 to Europe and Middle East.
EADS is offering their own A320 version (though it is not any where near the development curve as the P-8).
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 709 posts, RR: 11 Reply 135, posted (9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 15342 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 134): There are some cheaper (though less capable) alternative(s).
Boeing is pitching to P-8 to Europe and Middle East.
EADS is offering their own A320 version (though it is not any where near the development curve as the P-8).
Yeah, the alternatives really don't impress me all that much.
I think the A320 version is pie in the sky. Not nearly enough user base to make it happen with the US, India and Australia (they will confirm fairly soon) already out of the picture and Japan having a domestic option. If Japan's program goes bottoms up (a remote possibility but it was not going great last I heard) they would be almost sure to order P-8's themselves as well for commonality sake.
If you could line all of Europe up behind an A320 it might get done but most are running very small patrol fleets now. If you went back to 80% of the Cold War numbers you could pay for development. The British used to operate 30-40 aircraft in this role. They were eventually going to operate around a dozen had they built the MRA4. That won't really cut it to get a development program done. Other European units have faced similar cutbacks.
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 136, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15267 times:
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1063 posts, RR: 0 Reply 137, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14997 times:
Quoting BigJKU (Reply 131): The P-8 should really represent a major leap in capability for anyone who buys it, particularly in the Pacific with its wide spaces.
Somewhat, if they are already a P-3 operator. The P-8's current sensors and systems are mostly recycled or derived from the latest P-3 Blocks.
However, the P-8 has way more room for expandability and upgrades down the line so yes, in the future, it will be a major leap in capability.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 138, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14739 times:
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 140): The P-8's current sensors and systems are mostly recycled or derived from the latest P-3 Blocks.
Right now, the most obvious increase in systems capabilities lies in the mission computing which is the natural result of using newer chips and processors.
The next major technology to be incorporated will be the surface search radar that will allow for the P-8 to perform functions similar to the Air Force Rivet Joint aircraft.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 139, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14616 times:
I started this thread about 2 1/2 years ago to track this plane remotely (having retired) and wish to thank all those who have kept it updated, especially bikerthai and eskimotail.
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 709 posts, RR: 11 Reply 140, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14637 times:
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 140): Somewhat, if they are already a P-3 operator. The P-8's current sensors and systems are mostly recycled or derived from the latest P-3 Blocks.
The big update to me is the ability of the P-8 to operate effectively in the Pacific much more so than the P-3 due to its ability to get out to a station quickly and then patrol there. It should work better with the long-range detection assets (SURTASS and SOSUS) as it should be able to respond to a necessary patrol area more quickly and then cover more space in a given time once it gets there to conduct the prosecution.
The P-3 was a great aircraft to work in the Atlantic in general and the GIUK gap in particular. The P-8 should provide very good service in the Pacific that the P-3 really can't match.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 141, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14598 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 142): I started this thread about 2 1/2 years ago to track this plane remotely (having retired) and wish to thank all those who have kept it updated, especially bikerthai and eskimotail.
And thank you for starting it!
I too am enjoying the thread.
It's nice to see a military/aerospace project track right to what it's supposed to track to.
It's a cool looking airframe, especially with weapons hanging off the hardpoints!
I'd love to see a fully armed one pointing head on at a Southwest 737 with the caption "Make My Day!"
Never been on a P-3. But from photos, it looks like a glorified "port-a-potty" with your standard toilet seat and a small sink.
The P-8 lav is also a stand-alone lav (not a vacuum system) but will look very similar to your run-of-the-mill commercial lav.
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 409 posts, RR: 1 Reply 146, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12970 times:
Valiant shield is starting here within the next two weeks...
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 148, posted (7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11605 times:
Quote:
This is the third batch of low-rate, production planes bought by the Navy, bringing the total number of P-8 planes under contract to 24, out of a total of 117 that the Navy plans to buy overall
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 149, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10908 times:
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2461 posts, RR: 21 Reply 151, posted (5 months ago) and read 7823 times:
Thanks BT... good to have you over there checking. What's our total delivered now?
You know a lot of people didn't believe the Indian planes would deliver anywhere close to on time.. I guess this proves the plug and play capabilities.
Eskimotail From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 152, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7819 times:
YP/14 is next to deliver and is currently on the flight line at Military Flight.
YP/17 just flew over the hill today to begin its I and C.O. process.
YP/14 will make 6 at PAX and 6 at JAX.
plus the 2 static and fatigue test birds.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10445 posts, RR: 20 Reply 153, posted (4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7679 times:
Quoting kanban (Reply 151): You know a lot of people didn't believe the Indian planes would deliver anywhere close to on time.. I guess this proves the plug and play capabilities.
Indeed. It's great to know there's now a flying tandoori oven!
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 155, posted (2 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4430 times:
P-8 update
Fatigue testing has begun - surprising that fatigue testing has started so late.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 156, posted (2 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4203 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 155):
First LRIP 2 aircraft to be delivered this month.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16250 posts, RR: 52 Reply 160, posted (1 week 4 days 23 hours 38 minutes ago) and read 1004 times:
There's been a major change in the P-8s basing plans, they will now be based at two locations (Whidbey Island and Jacksonville). Plans to base three squadrons in Hawaii have been scrapped.
dahawaiian From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 226 posts, RR: 0 Reply 161, posted (1 week 4 days 14 hours 58 minutes ago) and read 887 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 160): There's been a major change in the P-8s basing plans, they will now be based at two locations (Whidbey Island and Jacksonville). Plans to base three squadrons in Hawaii have been scrapped.
Although the Supplemental EIS is still not finished, it appears as though the Navy has already made the decision to pull the patrol squadrons out of MCAS Kaneohe Bay. Apparently a two aircraft detachment was deemed sufficient.
I'm not sure what to think about this, but it will definitely help to make room for the Marines that are scheduled to arrive in Hawai'i in the coming years.
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 709 posts, RR: 11 Reply 162, posted (1 week 4 days 5 hours 51 minutes ago) and read 791 times:
Quoting dahawaiian (Reply 161): Although the Supplemental EIS is still not finished, it appears as though the Navy has already made the decision to pull the patrol squadrons out of MCAS Kaneohe Bay. Apparently a two aircraft detachment was deemed sufficient.
I'm not sure what to think about this, but it will definitely help to make room for the Marines that are scheduled to arrive in Hawai'i in the coming years.
I think the key thing for the P-8 really should be its ability to deploy just about anywhere in a pinch. You should be able to do most major airframe support and maintenance from almost any decent commercial airport in a pinch as almost all can do some level of service on a 737. You obviously still need to maintain the avionics and put weapons on the thing but your logistical footprint for moving into and operating somewhere should be about as minimal as it could be.
If you can consolidate major MX operations to one place on each coast that should save money and not impact the ability to deploy and provide coverage much in my opinion. I would guess that some P-8's will always be rolling through deployments further forward in both oceans and in the event of a real crisis could/would easily disperse to the most appropriate commercial airports up and down each coast of the US.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1588 posts, RR: 4 Reply 163, posted (1 week 4 days 5 hours 6 minutes ago) and read 782 times:
Could this mean that the US Navy will rely on the Australian P-8's and their bases more for Pacific support? After all, the Aussies will get the same P-8 configuration as the US Navy. So I have been told.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16250 posts, RR: 52 Reply 164, posted (1 week 4 days 16 minutes ago) and read 726 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 163): Could this mean that the US Navy will rely on the Australian P-8's and their bases more for Pacific support? After all, the Aussies will get the same P-8 configuration as the US Navy. So I have been told.
It means technically all the P-8 squadrons will be based at two locations, Jacksonville and Whidbey Island, however at least half the squadrons will be away on six month rotational deployments to detachments around the World in places like:
Bahrain, Okinawa, Misawa Japan, Guam, Diego Garcia, Curacao, El Salvador, Sigonella Italy, Souda Bay Greece, Qatar, and now Hawaii.
There are always P-3, soon P-8, aircraft forward deployed to these bases. In the event of a crisis their presence can be ramped up with additional squadrons.
"The Indian Navy Wednesday received the first of eight Boeing P-8I long range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare (LRMRASW) aircraft at the INS Rajali naval air Station in Tamil Nadu, giving a major fillip to its capabilities."
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