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Osprey For Marine One?  
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4836 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18414 times:

The Navy is relaunching the presidential helo competition and has issued a fresh RFI to industry for their input. It's reasonable to expect the same set of platforms competing save for one --- Boeing is proposing either the CH-47 Chinook or the V-22 Osprey!

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...ell-boeing-v-22-osprey-cutaway.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-changes-for-us-presidential.html

Quote:
"The second round of bids is expected to include a challenge from Boeing, which has discussed offering a variant of its CH-47 Chinook or the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey tiltrotor. However, the RFI suggests that the latter type could be disadvantaged in the new competition, as the navy requires a speed of 140kt (260km/h), or roughly half of the V-22's capability."

I'm not sure why the Osprey's greater speed would be a liability, but the tiltrotor as Marine One sure fits the image. And their consideration of a mixed buy could facilitate this.....

Quote:
"Rather than buy a common aircraft to replace 11 Sikorsky VH-3Ds and eight Sikorsky VH-60s, the service would consider splitting the contract with a mixed fleet, the RFI says. Options under review include buying a common aircraft with two variants, or simply purchasing two different aircraft types.

The RFI discusses buying one aircraft with a fully appointed executive suite, including galley and lavatory, and a different aircraft with a full load of command, control and communications equipment."


Here is one instance where the Osprey's exalted price could be justified. The rose bushes in the garden are perhaps the only ones which would not be happy at the idea!  


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18409 times:

Er, no.

I don't mean to pour cold water on things, but on something as crucial as the President's transport - something more conventional might be a lot better.


User currently offlinedw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18383 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 1):
something more conventional might be a lot better.

I doubt the brass would be willing to go with something as radical as the V-22, especially since the safety record isn't particularly impressive. It would certainly be great for the mission, but for this role I think the brass will be conservative.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):

I'm not sure why the Osprey's greater speed would be a liability, but the tiltrotor as Marine One sure fits the image.

Perhaps they are saying that the added speed won't get the V-22 any points--effectively it looks like a 140 knot helicopter on paper in the contest. Just a 140 knot helicopter with a lot of added complexity, cost, and risk when compared with the other 140 knot helicopters!

It is interesting that they are considering a separate "everyday" transport and a command and control chopper.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18323 times:

Quoting dw747400 (Reply 2):

I doubt the brass would be willing to go with something as radical as the V-22, especially since the safety record isn't particularly impressive. It would certainly be great for the mission, but for this role I think the brass will be conservative.

Given the time frame of these contests tend to require, perhaps they may at least kept it as a contender as long as possible, in the hope that the early crashes become ancient history, and the rates of aircraft going tech subside with experience. the Secret Service I'm sure would be enthusiastic about using it if it proves reliable enough, I can imagine them thinking of all the extra countermeasures that the increased payload could allow, not to mention the speed making it more difficult to shoot down generally.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18293 times:

Obama has traveled in the Osprey, just not as President. During the campaign when he visited Iraq he was flown from Al Assad to Jordan on a V-22.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12146 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 18292 times:

Both a VH-47F and a VCV-22B from Boeing might be good contenders, with the Chinook offering more room.

The CV-22A/B has not had a crash in a long time now, I am sure the USMC and USAF have gotten a handle on the initial problems now.

Of course the CV-22 is a lot noiser than most other helios, so that would be a drawback for it, requiring more sound proofing.


User currently offlinedragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18283 times:

The white smoke that spews out of the Osprey every time it starts may not be very Presidential. Not that I think that would be a deciding factor, but in todays "green" world I am sure it will be mentioned.


Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18240 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Of course the CV-22 is a lot noiser than most other helios, so that would be a drawback for it, requiring more sound proofing

On the ground during lift off and landing the V-22 may present a greater noise signature than other large tandem helicopters. But compared to conventional large helicopters, the V-22 has a lower noise signature due to the noise generated by tail rotors.

Interior cabin noise comes from the engines, transmisons, and mechanical components like hydraulic pumps as well as the rotors. On the V-22 these sources are located in the nacelles far from the cabin instead of up on the roof a couple feet from the passengers heads.

Finally, in airplane cruise mode after the rotor speeds are reduced the, V-22 becomes very quiet inside and out compared to any large helicopter. If you get a chance to witness a V-22 do a low pass in airplane mode you will be suprised.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently onlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18232 times:

Is it even possible for that thing to fit on the south lawn of the White House ? Wouldn't the massive propwash damage the surounding trees and vegetation ? Is just seems like overkill.


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 18212 times:

Quoting CTR (Reply 7):

Interior cabin noise comes from the engines, transmissions, and mechanical components like hydraulic pumps as well as the rotors. On the V-22 these sources are located in the nacelles far from the cabin instead of up on the roof a couple feet from the passengers heads.

Does it not have transmissions between the engines to drive the rotors in the event of one engine failing?

Quoting alberchico (Reply 8):
Is it even possible for that thing to fit on the south lawn of the White House ? Wouldn't the massive prop wash damage the surrounding trees and vegetation ? Is just seems like overkill.

It does tend to cook carrier decks with its exhaust too, so expect charred grass if it is not using a pad.


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18184 times:

Guess my head has been in the clouds for a while. I wasn't even aware the VH-71 was dead.

I don't understand why the platform needs so much capability. The POTUS isn't aboard the thing that long. Other than small arms and missile protection, what else besides a secure line is needed on Marine One? If a control chopper is needed, the split platform seems more logical. Ch-47 for the "control platform" and the S-92 for the "everyday transport".



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18182 times:

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 6):
The white smoke that spews out of the Osprey every time it starts may not be very Presidential.

True -- and in airplane cruise mode, do we really want the President to fly on a propeller plane?

Replace those rotors with a pair of JT8Ds, and you've got yourself a Presidential transport!  


User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18165 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
However, the RFI suggests that the latter type could be disadvantaged in the new competition, as the navy requires a speed of 140kt (260km

I suspect the Navy expects that the new machine has to be able to achieve 140 knots, not that it's limited to 140 knots. I can't imagine a competitor loosing points 'cause their machine is substantially faster, if it meets or exceeds all other requirements as well.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3369 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18159 times:

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 12):
I can't imagine a competitor loosing points 'cause their machine is substantially faster, if it meets or exceeds all other requirements as well.

They won't loose points on speed, but they won't gain "bonus" points for exceeding the requirement. However, they are likely to loose points on the added complexity and costs a tiltrotor brings over a helicopter.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18143 times:

Quoting GST (Reply 9):
Does it not have transmissions between the engines to drive the rotors in the event of one engine failing?

There is a small mid-wing gearbox to drive the service system hydraulic pump and generator that gets it's power from the shaft that connects the two nacelles. But the noise this creates is nothing compared to the thousands of of horse power generating noise from main transmissions and engines.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25367 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18049 times:

Osprey would be no-good simply for the fact the model size is huge and cannot be easily transported around the US, let alone the globe and positioned for presidential visits. You need something that will fit a C-5.

Also from what I remember White House lawn landing zone does have some space restrictions which the Osprey might exceed with its twin rotors.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2108 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18034 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Osprey would be no-good simply for the fact the model size is huge and cannot be easily transported around the US, let alone the globe and positioned for presidential visits. You need something that will fit a C-5.

I think this is the main con against the Osprey. Aside from being overly complex and having huge downwash, it can't be easily transported by the C-5. That alone should nix it.

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing the VV-22 on The Lawn, but I just don't see it happening.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineArluna From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 88 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 17910 times:

I have a question about the V22 that I don't think any one has completely answered. What happens if you lose power? I can see that if it were in airplane mode it would probably have some capability to glide though the landing might be interesting with those enormous props/rotors hanging out on the wingtips. But what happens in helicopter mode? Can it autorotate? If so can it autorotate from a hover? Are there some Marine Corps V22 pilots on this board that can give a definitive answer to these questions? Heck, is there a helicopter pilot that might know these answers? (FYI, I do have some helicopter experence since I was a crew chief on a Chinook in Sunny Southeast Asia flying recovery missions.)

I think that the answers to these questions would have some bearing on whether or not it would make a good presidential transport.

[Edited 2010-02-21 19:51:00]

User currently offlinedl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 17875 times:

As awesome as it would be I could see some problems, too much downwash and not easily transportable. Now thy could just use the converted blackhawks that they travel with if needed, But not easily transportable could be a major issue. A chinook also seems interesting, it would give a lot of room and would be interesting to see. I would love to see the osprey but it just doesn't seem like it will be the most practical

User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 17873 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Also from what I remember White House lawn landing zone does have some space restrictions which the Osprey might exceed with its twin rotors.

I hope boeing thought that one out before butting a bid in for the V22, if the V22 cannot fit in the lawn then it would be a very bog blunder on boeings part.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Osprey would be no-good simply for the fact the model size is huge and cannot be easily transported around the US, let alone the globe and positioned for presidential visits. You need something that will fit a C-5.

why not just have the thing fly its self, it is almost as fast and you dont have to use another C-5 (I think they actually use the C-17 for the transports). how would that be for green, instead of using two ultra big and hungry jets to pull around a helo, we just mad the helo a plane and had it fly its self around.



Boiler Up!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4836 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 17861 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 1):

I don't mean to pour cold water on things, but on something as crucial as the President's transport - something more conventional might be a lot better.

There seems to be a general feeling here that the V-22 is "unsafe" for presidential use?

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 6):
The white smoke that spews out of the Osprey every time it starts may not be very Presidential. Not that I think that would be a deciding factor, but in todays "green" world I am sure it will be mentioned.

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Photo © Ron Kellenaers


That could be useful when you want to board somebody without being seen.  
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 16):
I think this is the main con against the Osprey. Aside from being overly complex and having huge downwash, it can't be easily transported by the C-5.

From the photos, it looks like the problem would be with the tail stabs.....

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Photo © Karl Drage - Global Aviation Resource


There appears to be a little clearance for the engines - I wonder if the rotors and hubs could easily be disassembled as needed?

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Photo © Alex Christie
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Photo © John Padgett


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Photo © Yauhen Patsel
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Photo © Ronald J Stella


Is there a time window allowed for it to be "mission ready" after being partially disassembled/transported (if possible)?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2108 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 17821 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
From the photos, it looks like the problem would be with the tail stabs.....

I disagree, the problem is even without the stabs its too tall. The C-5 cargo hold is 19' wide by 13' tall and 121' long. I'd wager that stabs or no stabs its taller than 13' tall with the rotors folded up.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17811 times:

It's too freakin' small. Taken a few months ago:



User currently offlineJohnM From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 17651 times:

It is small. Where would the shitter and TV studio fit? Maybe the Pres could ride jumpseat.

User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 17648 times:

Also... how is the president going to board it? Are we really going to make him walk up the ass end? It seems like the V-22 is a nonstarter.

25 venus6971 : There's a door on the right side behind the flight deck . That said it would a need a door on the left side so the POTUS could deplane in the normal
26 dl767captain : Could they maybe make a special version of the V-22 for marine 1? maybe find a way to make some more interior room or something?
27 UH60FtRucker : ...So he's gonna walk right past the left engine nacelle?
28 Post contains images cpd : I don't believe I specifically said unsafe. It's just well, it's just not the right machine for the job.
29 silentbob : Think of the visual; The ramp drops slowly revealing the president standing there. They could also put a door in the rear and remove the ramp. That w
30 web500sjc : And how big is the current marine 1? It's not supposed to be AF1 , it is supposed to fly the pres. Locally to places that could not land say a 747, o
31 venus6971 : Yes, and everybody will see the oily mess that is bottom of that nacelle and the bug killing exhaust smoke you see during engine start up when all th
32 web500sjc : What I mention to say is that the pres doesn't need it to be the size of a chinook, just big enough for 30 min flights max, maybe instead of flying A
33 Post contains images ZkEyE : That would be fine by me if you could arrange smoke - aka Star Wars.
34 LAXintl : You cant see the logistical headaches of such? First time. The choppers could never get anywhere timely for last minute or same day events if they ha
35 dragon6172 : Umm... the whole reason were are re-doing this damn Marine One competition is because they were making a special version of the EH-101. Longer tail b
36 venus6971 : I imagine just the vibration at start up with all the burnt oil smoke at start up will be a non starter for this acft.
37 Stitch : About the only benefit I could see for a V-22 is that it would allow longer radius missions thanks to the speed and range, but it sure seems like the
38 CTR : Checking available information on line for the cargo hold dimensions on the C-5 and C-17, the V-22 can't fit inside without a folding tail and other m
39 Post contains images par13del : Paper work was done, some things about lowering landing gear, et. al, however, I'm not aware of any test using the prototypes already built. New UH-6
40 UH60FtRucker : There was never any dispute that these aircraft would require folding kits, for air transport. The rating factor was the time required to go from air
41 CTR : Good question. Since the V-22 was not proposed during the last POTUS helicopter RFP, I have not seen any publised information. Looking at photos with
42 venus6971 : , CTR As I remember that it took about 8 hours by a Penn NG troops to put one CH-47 back together coming off a C-5 in Keflavik which was putting the t
43 dragon6172 : More complexity to an aircraft that already suffers from being too complex. Wonderful. Osprey is 18.5 feet wide when folded, C-5 cargo hold is around
44 AirRyan : I think you would sooner see an upgraded H-46 (akin to the 360) for Marine One before we will an Osprey; if you think the scope creep was bad on the V
45 JohnM : A normal non tricked out CH-47 fits in a C-5, actually 2 at a time. Of course it does require more break down than other helicopters, but it is done
46 Post contains links CTR : The folded width is the same as the distance between the verticals surfaces. So as I noted, the verticals would need to be folded. The width of the f
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