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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk  
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7370 posts, RR: 13
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
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BBC has breaking news that plane with the Polish President has crashed on approach to Smolensk.

And a brief story has now been put up but I expect will be updated with the tragic news.

[Edited 2010-04-10 00:45:02]

401 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLOT767SP-LPA From Poland, joined May 2002, 156 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

87 dead   very sad day for poland

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Oh my God.... What type of airplane did he use?

User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Would this have been a chartered LOT plane, or does the Polish Air Force still have their Tu154?

User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3007 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Hardly any details out yet. I hope it's not going to get worse  

RIP to the victims!

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3007 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Russian media reporting the TU-154 went down on landing into Smolensk. President was confirmed on board, and no survivors are found. Everyone perished.  

Aeroflot777


User currently offlinef.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1523 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

RIP. Very sad news.
What type of aircraft was it?


User currently offlineTobseren From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 3):
Would this have been a chartered LOT plane, or does the Polish Air Force still have their Tu154?

I think it is the Tu-154, the last picture taken of the Polish Tupolev on airliners.net is from 25th of March 2010.


Sad situation, RIP.



Flown on: A300, A320, A321, ATR42, ATR72, B733, B738, E170, MD82, Saab 340
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3007 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

http://gazeta.ru/news/lastnews/2010/04/10/n_1481368.shtml

Press is mentioning that Polish teams say the aircraft crashed on approach, right on final it hit a tree and then went on fire by the time it hit the runway. Doesn't seem good. But media can be wrong as usual. Let's hope.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

It was a Tu 154M like this:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rafael Nunes



The President of Poland with his wife and many officials on board. RIP

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:03:11]

User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

No information on the aircraft. I just tuned in to N24 but no information so far except for the breaking news ticker. Any additional information available says that 84 people died in the crash, including Lech Kaczynski and his wife.

Unless he always travels with a big staff, my guess is that the aircraft was civilian.

EDIT: N24 is now presuming that it was indeed the Presidential Tu-154. They also say that the landing was apparently in the fog.

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:02:58]

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:03:35]

User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

"MOSCOW (BNO NEWS) -- Reports say a plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed at Smolensk Airport in Russia's Smolensk Oblast.

http://wireupdate.com/wires/2914/bno-eu-int-bulletin-11/"


Polish President Lech Kaczynski 'in plane crash'
Russia map

A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed near a Russian airport, officials say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8612825.stm

Unconfirmed but apparently the President is dead among at least 80 others

RIP Mr President and all those who died in the crash.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 2):
What type of airplane did he use?

If at least 87 people were on board, it can't be the Yak-40. so I guess it's probably a Tu-154.

Just reported on the news by the Polish Authorities : No survivors. The President of Poland and several Polish Officials and families were on board.
Mr Kaczynski was due to visit Smolensk to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviet troops killed thousands of Poles.

The plane hit trees on approach, crashed and caught fire.

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:05:46]

User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26952 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Aircraft was trying to land in heavy fog , President was on his way to attend a memorial service for Polish troops.

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting oa260 (Reply 13):
Aircraft was trying to land in heavy fog , President was on his way to attend a memorial service for Polish troops.

It was 70th anniversary of Katyn masacre, hence many other officials were with him.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5991 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

A very sad day indeed, RIP to all the victims  

User currently offlineViper911 From Russia, joined Oct 2005, 264 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Israeli Media is stating that the aircraft crashed about 1.5km short of the runway, the aircraft in question is indeed a Polish TU-154

User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1818 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

AlJazeera indicates that the Polish President and his wife has died in the crash! RIP

Its his private Presidential Plane.



لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlinef.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1523 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

I've just heard there were 132 pax onboard.

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3509 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 17):
AlJazeera indicates that the Polish President and his wife has died in the crash! RIP

Its his private Presidential Plane.

It was a military plane used by officials, not his private one.

Quoting f.pier (Reply 18):
I've just heard there were 132 pax onboard.

This aircraft only had 87 seats.

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:29:43]

User currently offlineBritishWorld From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2010, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Regrettably, Sky News is also now reporting that the President was indeed killed in the crash. Deeply shocking news; it is a terrible day for any nation when it loses its leader.


"sic itur ad astra."
User currently offlineEBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Swedish media is reporting that also the head of the Polish central bank, the head of the Polish army, and the deputy foreign minister were on board.

A very sad day indeed!



A306,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343/6,A380,B717,B727,B737,B744,B752/3,B763,B772/3/W,C-130,AN26,CRJ900,Il62,DC-8/9/10,MD80's,BaeR
User currently offlineFauzi From Brunei, joined Jul 2005, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Yeah I just heard that too, but nothing official on CNN yet... Hope everything is alright  

Any idea what went wrong?



BI - The Asian Underdog
User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

MSNBC is reporting 132 were aboard - 87 dead - no survivors...... Obviously still a lot of confusion at this point.

Russian news agencies reported at least 87 people died in the crash near Smolensk airport in western Russia, citing the Russian Emergencies Ministry. They reported 132 people were aboard the Tupolev Tu-154.

Polish state news agency PAP said there were no survivors.


People often post what they see in the media, and we all know the media doesn't know what they're doing when it comes to aviation.

RIP to all aboard, what a sad day for Poland.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thomas Brackx





[Edited 2010-04-10 01:35:36]


I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8556 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting Danny (Reply 19):

It was a military plane used by officials

In that case isn't this thread in the wrong forum ? In any case , even though it is in the wrong forum this is very sad news . Sympathies to the people of Poland .

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:15:38]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
25 Post contains images Viper911 : Israeli media states that there was a heavy fog in the area, someone can confirm that? a very sad day indeed
26 airtechy : Google Earth shows two airports nearby..neither of which appear to have precision landing devices...ie ILS structures. Maybe they were making a non-pr
27 CPH-R : I think the general interest in the civilian aspect of this crash warrants that it stays here. Especially since it looks like a good chunk of the Pol
28 BritishWorld : Quite true - and further to my post about Sky News' reporting of the President's "confirmed" death, I should just clarify that that assertion is comi
29 Christopherwoo : Just heard from my polish friend all passengers were officials, the top 80 in the country including popes and diplomats.... bad day
30 CPH-R : Danish Tv-2 News is currently showing pictures from Polish TV, who apparently has found a camera crew who are at the scene. Plenty of debris spread ar
31 Andrej : Al Jazeera (ENG) just showed latest images. The crash site is in woods, the weather seemed foggy, and it does look indeed like Tu-154. Really sad news
32 EDICHC : Truly shocking news...condolences to all Polish A-netters. A terrible human tragedy, but by the sounds of it there will be a huge political void in Po
33 MadameConcorde : Why did they put them all on one plane is one thing I can't understand. My deep respect goes to the people and the Nation of Poland.
34 Post contains links and images FlySSC : f.pier is right. 132 are now confirmed dead including the President.
35 Post contains images AAEXP : "popes" ......As far as I know, there is only one Pope
36 keesje : "A Polish government official said the head of the Polish army and the head of the presidential administration were also on board the plane, along wit
37 oa260 : We must be careful with the figures nothing confirmed and conflicting reports according to Sky News, so figures not exact yet.
38 FlySSC : Reuters is also now talking about 132 dead ... but you are right. We must be careful. Some journalists are already reporting the plane crashed during
39 milan320 : Read in a Polish newspaper that the plane was on approach, but due to heavy fog, declared missed approach and proceeded with the go-around. Whilst tur
40 Post contains images oa260 : I wonder if it was this one I photographed on my last trip to WAW. .
41 mxp : This is indeed a horrible news Rip to alll and condolances to the families Alberto
42 acabgd : I don't know why you "guess" it was 40 years old? It was produced in 1990, delivered July 1990.
43 acabgd : If the registration is 101 (can't really see on this photo) then - yes, that's the one.
44 JoKeR : Serbian TV as well as the BBC confirm that the aircraft was instructed to divert to Moscow due to poor visibility but that the pilot elected to go ahe
45 Danny : The spokeperson for Polish Foreign Affair Ministy has just confIrmed that there were 88 names on the passenger's list.
46 Post contains images OV735 : Horrible news. Sad day in Poland today. It is tragic and ironic that a disaster like this struck when the delegation was going to commemorate the even
47 SOBHI51 : Question. If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?
48 Post contains links and images FatmirJusufi : Sad news. RIP to all Preliminary accident description http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20100410-0 Fatmir
49 Post contains links and images j0rdan : Terrible news, very sad day in Poland. Heres a news link for anybody intrested. (with video) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612825.stm] RIP jordan
50 Aleksandar : Bad news and a sad day for Poland. May the victims rest in peace
51 Post contains links BeakerLTN : BBC news now updated with video of crash site. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8612825.stm
52 GothamSpotter : They also used 102 for the president. Smolensk has both an airport and an air base. The airport (LNX) runway seems to be too short for a Tu-154 (5500
53 Post contains links and images FlySSC : It seems to be 101
54 acabgd : The plane was landing at Smolensk-North, ICAO designator XUBS. Smolensk-South (IATA: LNX) is a very small airport with a short runway (1600m / 5249ft
55 Aleksandar : My guess is that the pilot has a final word. At least, he's the one with all responsibilities
56 Gdabski : 102 is undergoing maintainence/overhaul in Moscow.
57 slz396 : Very sad and easily avoidable accident... Is it the first time a head of state is killed in a plane crash? Does Poland have a Vice-President, or who's
58 Viper911 : According to Wikipedia its Bronisław Komorowski, in don't know if its official or not, plus i don't dent to trust Wikipedia so much..
59 BlueSky1976 : Bronislaw Komorowski is the speaker of the Parlament house, who becomes acting president in case of elected president's death. Also, apparently all Po
60 FlySSC : No. In 1994 the President Juvenal Habvarimana of Rwanda and President Cyprian Ntayamira of Burundi were on board the same aircraft that crashed near
61 slz396 : He's just acting President, since he's the Speaker of the House. Apparently, there's no VP in Poland.
62 Post contains images slz396 : How could I have forgotten about that one! In a former Belgian colony... leading to the mass killing of over a million people and a huge scandal in m
63 tonymctigue : May they all Rest in Piece.
64 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : List of those on board. http://www.polskieradio.pl/wiadomosci/kraj/artykul153440.html (all in Polish) R.I.P.
65 FlySSC : Several sources are stil mentioning 132 dead... The InterFax agency is reporting that the Russian authorities proposed to the crew to divert to Minsk
66 Tobias2702 : If my counting is correct, there are 98 names on the pax manifest.
67 SOBHI51 : Will also add: President Abdul Salam Arif of Iraq died in a helicopter crash in 1966.
68 CPH-R : As I understand it, the role of the Polish President is largely ceremonial. The position is 'merely' that of head of state, whereas the real day to d
69 milan320 : Don't shoot the messenger, just rehashing what I read in the newspaper. Maybe the meant AC type is 40 years old. Not sure.
70 acabgd : Sorry, you said "I guess the plane is 40 years old" and I just asked "Why guess"? The type might be as old as you want it to be, it's the maintenance
71 BlueSky1976 : Both Tu-154Ms have been delivered in late 1980s (1989 IIRC), so they were not really that old. I'd say they were on par with most of government VIP a
72 Ltbewr : One news report I heard here in the USA suggested that the a/c was considering to divert to another one due to the fog conditions. That diversion woul
73 jayeshrulz : May the President and pilots,and all of the occupants Rest in Peace.
74 morvious : People died and all we care is why this post has been mooved. R.I.P. to all who died and my condolences to families and friends.
75 Aesma : Probably no ILS. Can a TU-154M sport a HUD ? One Catholic Pope, sure, but there are others. Although here he probably meant priests. Yeah, the TU-154
76 acabgd : Heh... If a plane crashes in the US would you go and say "Just as happpened in 1990s and 1980s and 1970s and....?? The two LOT crashes were back in d
77 Aesma : One black box recovered, according to Agence France Presse.
78 bigphilnyc : Condolences to all Polish peopel and our aviation friends. What a horrible disaster.
79 Aesma : AFP also reports more victims, unfortunately : 96 total, including 88 members of the delegation, and I guess 8 crew.
80 Revelation : I'm so sorry to hear about this. Poland is a great partner of the EU and in NATO. And is working hard to improve relations with Russia. One article me
81 tom355uk : I dont think so, but even a HUD is pretty useless without any form of vertical guidance. The best weather report I have seen states a visibility of a
82 aerdingus : This is just terrible. Condolences to the Polish community. Hope they find out the cause soon. Just watching the Euronews coverage of the crash, and a
83 osteogenesis : Bild Online is reporting that the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk refused to fly the Tupolev planes of the Polish Air Force. After this happened may
84 Navigator : I agree with you. Many civil airlines only allow pilots a specific number of tries before going to alternate airport. Without jumping to conclusions
85 osteogenesis : Some news agencies are speculating that the pilot was instructed to try it so that they did not miss the very important commemoration event.
86 AAEXP : Does the German government use Tupolev aircraft?
87 Post contains links and images Aesma : Video of the crash site : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMwhZtlQ2hY You can stop at 43", after that it rewinds. The woman seems to be reading names o
88 OV735 : When Donald Tusk visited Tallinn, he flew on a Yak-40. I don't see why he would refuse to fly on a much more modern Tupolev, if he was fine with the
89 miszaqq : Just to clarify some things, on the official passanger list there were 89 names (but one person never get on board the aircraft, so there were 88 peo
90 Tobias2702 : No, they are using Challengers and 2 A310'a (which formerly belonged to the GDR leadership), but these will be replaced by new A319's and 2 ex-LH A34
91 ukair : If conditions were below minimums why did it try to land? I'm afraid this is looking like pilot error.
92 Navigator : That is probably a fair guess, but in normal civil circumstances the Pilot in Command, (Flight Captain), is according to aviation rules and laws the
93 osteogenesis : I am not sure if this is always the case. What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere. Can he refuse to do this? I am not sure if this la
94 mirrodie : I heard the news this morning. A very sad day for the Polish people, many of which I see and tend to everyday. My heart goes out to my polish friends
95 JL418 : My sympathy goes to Poland and all his people, in such a tragic - and cynic, if you think about it - moment. What lead half the government of Poland o
96 Tobias2702 : IIRC, the US President is also the head of the Armed Forces. Now idea how this is in case of the Polish Army. But obviously there were some high rank
97 hugoandres1984 : does anybody have the approach plate of that airport Posible CFIT[Edited 2010-04-10 06:16:50]
98 Navigator : Of course the pilot of AF 1 has the authority to rule out any order coming from Obama if it concerns safety. Anything else would be stupidity. The pi
99 bjorn14 : Not sure you can count this one as a "plane crash" It was shot down by some kind of land to air device as they were taking off. This what ignited the
100 WROORD : Some media are reporting that due to bad weather the plan must have hit the trees and burst into a fireball.
101 kubus : Black Box was found according to InterFax (around 6:30A EST). The TU154M had 5004 hours and 1823 landings. Went through D-Check (major tear down) in D
102 Post contains images F9Animal : If this is the case, it was obviously a tragic mistake. I am deeply saddened for the people of Poland, and I send my deepest condolences. Damn, I wis
103 Viper911 : IIRC, there is no ILS in both airports of Smolensk.
104 LTU932 : I just looked it up. The President of Poland is the commander in chief of the Polish Armed Forces, so he would thus be the head of the Armed Forces.
105 LTU932 : If that is so, then they should have diverted somewhere else. It would be irresponsible to land in the fog visually.
106 zeke : Military airports normally have the capability for talking pilots down on what is known as a precision radar approach (PAR), and military pilots are
107 BlueSky1976 : CNN London is covering the event as a breaking story and I would like to make some corrections to the wrong report made by Richard Quest: - both Tu-15
108 Post contains links and images miszaqq : according to the picture of the passanger list published in one of polish portals/newspapers gazeta.pl it was TU-154M/101 it was late departure from w
109 uzzzer : They could have pushed the limits, considering the political circumstances. Polish president's rival - the prime minister Tusk was just in Katyn by Sm
110 oldeuropean : I don't know if this is true, but it is said that, after the instruction to divert, the pilots answered that Kaczynski has insisted: "The Polish pres
111 AustrianZRH : Just read that in 2008 there was an incident when an Polish Air Force pilot refused to land in Tbilisi, Georgia due to safety concerns and diverted,
112 Starlionblue : Old aircraft are only a problem if badly maintained and badly flown. Conversely, a determined flight crew can crash a brand new FBW airliner. The Capt
113 acabgd : That's a fine plane that I would fly on any day. Well maintained, low cycles, passed D-Check and had a nice time after it confirming everything was o
114 cysafan : This is exactly a same aircraft that crashed... Polish Air Force VIP fleet consists of just ONE Tupolev-154M...
115 Flighty : What a shock and a tragedy for Poland. RIP.
116 RayChuang : Has anyone mentioned just what was the level of visibility at Smolensk airport? Without ICAO Catagory II and III ILS at that airport, landing in fog w
117 braynfeeble : I'm sorry to hear about this tragedy. WYRAZY SZCZEREGO ŻALU I WSPÓŁCZUCIA Z POWODU ŚMIERCI KACZYNSKI.
118 OV735 : Interesting to find out how new the jet actually was. Most commercially operated aircraft will reach 1800 cycles in a year or two. This crash reminds
119 Post contains images cysafan : You all should know that the Tupolev-154 got a bad reputation of huge number of tragedies by non-pilot error... They are beautiful to look at and they
120 ipodguy7 : My prayers go out to Poland in this time of unimaginable pain. God Bless Poland!
121 pylon101 : It is not the civil airport of Smolensk. It's a big military base with dozens of IL-76. Some time ago military allowed to land there. But they raised
122 Post contains links cysafan : If you all wanted to know why this plane has crashed... You should see this video... A huge number of problems on the list for Polish Air Force Plane
123 doug_Or : In landing configuration GPWS would probably not have gone off
124 CodyKDiamond : My condolences to all aboard, their families, and their friends. This is a terrible loss and a major tragedy.
125 OV735 : I think you're confusing it with some other aircraft type. The Tu-154 has a rather good safety record among airliners of it's generation. When compar
126 Danny : Actually it consists of two Tu-154M number 101 (that crashed) and 102.
127 Macsog6 : I just saw the news reports of this tragic accident. Seeing as the aircraft was on the way to a ceremony of rememberance for the 70th anniversary of t
128 cysafan : No.. I am not. My grandfather almost got killed when a Tupolev 154 of CAAC lost engine thrust so sudden but it managed to return back to the airport.
129 PillowTester : All the information we have so far points to the probability of pilot error and not the aircraft itself.
130 pylon101 : Since 1972 about 1,000 frames produced. 66 lost for various reasons. It's about the same proportion compared to B-727 or DC-9/MD-80 or any other aircr
131 billreid : Dutch press reporting that the acft did 4 attempts at landing. yes 4 missed landings due to very poor visibility problems. ATC had ordered the acft to
132 Post contains links Flighty : According to this article, http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/10/poland.plane/ The Tu-154M in this crash received a major overhaul (including
133 Post contains links SOBHI51 : Not really. I remember back in early 70's Egyptair aquirred few of those planes, pilots were not happy with them so TU sent there chief pilot to show
134 RAFVC10 : My condolences to all the Polish members of A.net and the citizens of Poland. Has anyone when was built this airframe? Is very strange to see nowadays
135 MedAv : The Polish quotes in some of the media articles seem to be blaming the plane, bemoaning how they should've replace the fleet. It's obviously early to
136 BA84 : I find the comments regarding the pilot having the final word on landing rather naive. This was not an airline captain. This was an air force plane. T
137 OV735 : I'm happy for your grandfather and that he got out of the trouble, but with all due respect, you cannot call an aircraft type unsafe based on just on
138 Bolek : Tragic day for Poland indeed. My condolences go to that fine country. Some Czech experts have claimed that one possible explanation could be 'unit con
139 OV735 : Again, you can't judge a plane's safety record just by one incident. I have no information regarding the cause of the Egypt Air crash, and it might i
140 OV735 : I strongly doubt that. Pilots, even air force ones, do a complete and thorough briefing before each flight, to familiarize themselves with the proced
141 acabgd : This is such a widely known fact that any half-educated private pilot will pay double attention to metric/feet conversion when flying over Russia. No
142 Kaiarahi : Read this thread. And your source is?
143 ferengi80 : My heart goes out to all people affected by this tragic accident. The people of Poland have lost a great man. RIP Mr. President.
144 BA84 : Further to my comment in Reply 136: In civil aviation, the captain is omnipotent. In military aviation, the pilot's command decisions are directly rel
145 L410Turbolet : My deepest conolences to our Polish brothers. It's a tragic irony that Poland loses its political and especially military elite once again in the wood
146 BW424 : Very tragic day. My condolences to all the famalies of those that died, as well as all Polish posters on this forum.
147 Post contains images David L : This fallacy comes up here so often that a couple of years ago I compiled a list of Tu-154 accidents and their primary causes. It was very difficult
148 wjcandee : It's going to be the Ron Brown thing all over again.
149 SyeaphanR : I'm curious... Given the kind of base this was, didn't they have the ability to do an old-fashioned PAR "Talk-Down"? I would have thought it appropria
150 FlySSC : Back to the Aviation subject : It seems finally true that the crew did 3 attempt to land and crashed during the fourth one. I doubt a "standard" crew
151 BA84 : Most members won't understand this reference. BA84
152 Aesma : This president (and his brother) was not really a great partner of the EU, to say the least. Of NATO and the US, sure. I'm not saying I wished him an
153 Post contains links oneworld77 : Re the reliability - below from the bbc.co.uk/news website (with fair use) is an interesting article; Crash focusses attention on Tupolev-154 About 1,
154 413X3 : what???
155 JJJ : Also Francisco Sá Carneiro, prime minister of Portugal was killed in a small aircraft crash back in 1980. OPO is named after him.
156 TommyBP251b : As sad as the tragedy is, this crash will help to prevent future crashes. If it is really true that both Belarus and Russian ATC advised a diversion
157 MrSkyGuy : I think that's going to be difficult given that it's a pure-military airfield. I just checked my Jeppesen charts and came up dry. I loaded up a nav d
158 FN1001 : If I remember well, NATO planes have no blackbox, so it will not be very difficult to blame the pilots, what in some media allready is comming as a r
159 irobertson : Did you watch this?? There was nothing in this report that indicated the aircraft was unfit for flight. All of the incidents were non-mechanical. Thi
160 Post contains links FlySSC : According to vaious sources, at least one of the two "black box" has been recovered : http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=115099 http://www.itar
161 FN1001 : Thank you for correcting. I hope the truth will come out soon!
162 Post contains images OV735 : The Tu-154 is equipped both with a cockpit voice recorder and a flight data recorder. I hope data can be extracted from both, so that the cause (not
163 Danny : # Both blackboxes have been recovered # The body of the President has been found and identified # Polish and Russian Prime Ministers Tusk and Putin m
164 SOBHI51 : I was just saying facts. Was not trying to put down the TU154
165 MCOflyer : May all those who died RIP. I hope this not destroy the Tu154's reputation. She is a very pretty a/c. Hunter
166 DocLightning : CNN is reporting that both of these devices have been found and that authorities have already started examining their contents.
167 3MilesToWRO : Looking at what is left of the plane it seems the impact was very violent. There was not much fire, as far as I understand, but the remains are surpri
168 AirPacific747 : This is always the case. Yes. The PIC can refuse this and definitely should if he/she thinks it is not safe to do whatever they are asked to do.[Edit
169 3MilesToWRO : "What? You can't land? And you call yourself a soldier? Chicken!"
170 Danny : A civilian PIC follows procedure and can refuse to land. A military one follows orders.
171 Flighty : It's a slightly hard legal question. You would have to be insane to order the pilot to land unsafely. Even if you could, that's the last thing you wo
172 dc9northwest : In this case, I suggest the next Polish president use an airline (charter) rather than the Air Force. If Kaczynski would've done that, he would've li
173 sovietjet : All Russian airbases have RSBN which as far as I know can be used to land in bad weather. Correct me if I'm wrong. The problem however is that Tu-154
174 AirPacific747 : No I don't believe so. Not if it compromises safety for everyone on board and people on the ground. Exactly. As said by others - as a civilian PIC, n
175 3MilesToWRO : The point is it'd be probably easier to reject clear order than stand general pressure "you need to land because they already ring the bells in the c
176 dc9northwest : Is it? I don't know, I've never been in the military and generally dislike all "orders", so I suppose this is right for someone like me, but for an A
177 lemang : W polskiej telewizji powiedzieli (oko%u0142o 12:00), %u017Ce nie wynosi%u0142a 4 aproaches, ale samolot dokonane 4 ko%u0142a na lotnisku przed (jedyna
178 SOBHI51 : Did anybody understand the above? Sorry but what village?
179 Post contains links borism : found great article about it "Medal for the pilot, who was not afraid of Lech Kaczynski" http://wyborcza.pl/1,76842,5705983,M...echa_Kaczynskiego_sie
180 Speedbird128 : Ummmm. Was that not 1986? I am nearly 100% certain it couldn't have been 2008...
181 acabgd : Oh, come on now. They "focuss" [sic!] on the Tu-154 citing two incidents which had nothing to do with the plane itself and everything to do with the
182 Post contains links wjcandee : US Air Force VIP Flight carrying commerce secretary Ron Brown and very high ranking US business leaders crashes while on approach to Eastern European
183 dstefanc : W polskiej telewizji powiedzieli (oko%u0142o 12:00), %u017Ce nie wynosi%u0142a 4 aproaches, ale samolot dokonane 4 ko%u0142a na lotnisku przed (jedyna
184 Post contains links dstefanc : I came across this on rmf.fm's website (Polish radio). It is a video shot by a polish reporter moments after the accident. This immediately takes me b
185 acabgd : It was Dubrovnik (LDDU, DBV) and I don't want to go too far OT here, but I still wonder what went on with that flight. I flew to DBV God knows how ma
186 CharlieNoble : My guess is that it probably didn't come down to a clear cut "Land this plane or else." Absent a direct order, the pilot probably felt immense pressu
187 PillowTester : This disaster would have ended up exactly the same way if it were a 787. Please, for the love of god, stop fixating on the Tu-154 itself just because
188 SOBHI51 : Sorry but when an airliner refuses to fly a plane due to safety issues then that is a fact.
189 Starlionblue : As already mentioned above, did you even watch the video? Those problems have nothing to do with the plane. Turbulence for example is hardly the plan
190 zeke : I thought only around 10 or so RSBN transmitters (russian TACAN) were left in Riussia ? Does Poland still use RSBN ? I thought most of their aircraft
191 emair : It wasn't a really smart move of the Polish Government by putting all these important people in only one plane. When many government people are travel
192 Starlionblue : My thoughts exactly. Even in many large corporations, all or large parts senior management cannot travel together, whether it be aircraft, bus or tra
193 Post contains images yyzala : Please point out "safety issues". The link you posted clearly indicates pilot error. Then with your logic no plane is safe. Very unfortunate accident
194 Post contains images Devilfish : Prayers to all, and may they rest in peace. Not to knock the Tu-154, but there had been on and off talks (even here on A.net) of acquiring a BBJ as Po
195 Post contains links aaresl : One polish blogger has a very negative opinion on the financing and maintenance of the Polish Air Force 1 http://dziennik3rp.blogspot.com/2010...-samo
196 Post contains links micreaux : Interesting article from the Daily Beast on the topic. http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...nd-killed/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsR1
197 Starlionblue : That Daily Beast article is pure sensationalism with little regard to fact. For example: (I remember landing at Moscow in a 154 in the middle of a bli
198 MrSkyGuy : Interesting you mention that--this was my first impression as well. I'm not a government employee, but even my company has restrictions regarding the
199 Post contains links stasisLAX : The Polish government and the National Bank of Poland, in a “rare moment of unity,” agree to weaken Poland’s currency, the zloty, in an act tha
200 Danny : First of all it wasn't a government's move. It is important to distinguish between the President and the Government led by Prime Minister (who is the
201 Aeroflot001 : Within Poland what are the very 2 different roles between the President and the Prime Minister. Not just in Poland but also generally speaking.
202 rafaelyyz : In fact there are regulations in Poland pertaining to this but they were seldom respected, for reasons unknown.
203 Jana : Sorry for the victims and their families. Really. It strongly seems that the captain of the plane has indeed been stressed and forced to make the land
204 FN1001 : If we consider "%u0142" as a polish " Ł " (the L like in Lodz) and the "%u017C" as " Ż " (Z with a dot on the top) then the text looks a little bet
205 3MilesToWRO : As a matter of fact it's indeed a huge mess, but not a state catastrophy. A lot of functions will need new persons, but it's rather a case of lot of
206 rafaelyyz : That would be my interpretation. A Polish news article on gazeta.pl says they circled the airport 3 times before crashing. Apparently there was only
207 3MilesToWRO : It's probably accidental re-translation of something already translated to English. In general it seems to say that it wasn't 4th approach, but the a
208 Starlionblue : There are plenty of charters available.
209 3MilesToWRO : Man, you have no idea what was happening when prime minister took the Tu to fly to Brussels and it wasn't available for the president who wanted to f
210 AirPacific747 : Of course they do, but doing something you know is extremely dangerous but could easily be avoided just because you are following orders shows lack o
211 3MilesToWRO : I've found some reliably-looking information. According to Russian aviation officials until 2 km before airfield and 100 m altitude everything looked
212 cysafan : Report says that the Polish AF plane number 101 missed the good around approach and one of the wings or tail caught by some trees and slammed on the o
213 GDB : Terrible loss for Poland, coming only a couple of years after a crash of a Polish AF CASA transport killed many senior military officers. To relate it
214 Starlionblue : That may be, but at these levels there is no excuse for such poor planning (and that includes poor budgeting). Just from your comments it sounds like
215 Post contains links and images scbriml : I saw 102 at the VARZ400 facility at Vnukovo last August. Is it still there? View Large View MediumPhoto © Steve Brimley
216 Post contains links Aesma : Well, we know Egypt is quick to blame the plane even when all evidence point to the pilot/training/policies ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Airl
217 David L : I was puzzled at first and was going to comment. However, I think what the article is trying to do is point out why there might be suspicion of the 1
218 Post contains links OP3000 : I had read this explanation a couple of hours ago: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aEH644d2Iyeo&pos=1 Executive power und
219 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Or it was written the way most web reports are with multiple reporters just adding bits on and next to no substantive editing. And what was the safet
220 Pihero : In all this excitement, we seem to forget the basic points of this accident. In itself, a crash in marginal visibility is - alas !- almost usual (When
221 Pihero : .... You really, but I mean REALLY need to revise your sources. France regime has not been called "presidential" for nothing.
222 oneworld77 : Actually, the BBC article I posted earlier comments on recent high profile issues that the late President had with this aircraft. Just as has happene
223 acabgd : If it turns out to be true, the following quote from another forum would make clear as to how bad the weather actually was: "Polish military sources a
224 AAEXP : When people use the expression "bad weather" should it not be "low/poor visibility" instead? Or was there any other weather issues at Smolensk?
225 Post contains images moose135 : Pihero, Pihero, Pihero, your profile shows you have been a member here for 5 years. Haven't you learned by now - the facts, or lack thereof, have nev
226 Post contains links LongHaul67 : I came across this video animation of the crash (from Norwegian Broadcast Corporation NRK) http://nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.7074890
227 Post contains links A342 : My knowledge of aviation in the former Soveit Union is much more limited than yours, but I think RSBN was also used in civilian aircraft. A good desc
228 Aesma : You can call it that, but it's not defined as such. Some call it "semi-presidential". I would call it "undetermined", it changes with each president
229 kubus : Given that both pilots, navigator and mechanic were military, and the head of Polish Air Force was also onboard, some could speculate that order was g
230 spacecadet : Fuel exhaustion. I haven't seen anybody bring up this possibility before. Your later comments about the engines not making noise support that. 4 land
231 Post contains links doug_Or : Warning would be issued for excessive sink rate or below glide slope conditions, but if the ILS was not tuned and the pilots were descending normally
232 SOBHI51 : How long is a flight from Warsaw to Smolensk?
233 doug_Or : Less than 500 miles, but it is unlikely they left with full tanks. Circling or conducting approaches (whichever it turns they were doing) at low alti
234 pilotaydin : As someone who does accident analysis, I haven't had much chance to see the images, but from what i gather, i can put together a hypothesis of what th
235 OV735 : In any case, the RA would have given the correct height readout, and if the bug was set correctly for the MDH, also give an aural and visual warning
236 SOBHI51 : I am sure the captain did know the weather conditions at destination. He must has taken enough fuel for either an diversion or a holding patern.
237 David L : Of course it's possible but if they were running short of fuel you'd expect them to mention it to ATC and, as far as I know, it hasn't been reported.
238 sovietjet : If there was no fuel left then shouldn't there have been no fire?
239 David L : There's a difference between "no fuel left" and "no usable fuel left. However, until there's some evidence to support it, I remain sceptical.
240 doug_Or : Is this the setup on the TU-154? I've only flown one a/c with this type of setup, and it had been deactivated.
241 Post contains links flood : According to avherald, ATC and Polish authorities stated there was only one approach and subsequent crash. "The air traffic controller at Smolensk Air
242 BuyantUkhaa : I would be very very interested in CVR readings, and wonder whether they'll be published in full if they support your hypothesis - which I agree seem
243 OV735 : By default the Tu-154 is equipped with the RV-5 radio altimeter, which functions like I described above. Then, looking at the cockpit photos, it seem
244 pylon101 : Following the developments on RUnet ( we used to call Russian Web-sites this way here) I am getting an impression that both Russian and Polish authori
245 3MilesToWRO : There's no suggestion of fuel starvation and the fact that someone reports not hearing the engines is not a sigificant clue. We all know, I suppose, t
246 WROORD : Maybe, but this time the President was not by himself but had a plane full of people (which I read does not happen very ofetn) so he had to be accoun
247 A342 : Weather radars aren't exactly new technology, all Tu-154s had one, and I'm pretty sure so do all Soviet jetliners and turboprops. I'm also quite sure
248 Danny : I am certainly not getting that impresion in Poland. The controller did not speak english indeed however polish military says that both pilots of the
249 Breiz : Latest summary on news channels (mainly based on Russian officials statements): - Fog, - Polish ac offered to divert but turned down, - Four landing a
250 Pihero : Wrong. The radio-altimeter is not used in a non-precision approach, mainly because the height reference at a distance of 2 Nm from the threshold - wh
251 Post contains images giopan1975 : And this news bulletin reporting on plane's bad incident-full history I find ridiculous. 99,99% nothing wrong with the plane from the little facts th
252 konrad : I beg to differ with that one. The four landing attempts version seems to circulate around, yet it has not been confirmed. According to avherald and
253 Revelation : Based on the list in #89 I've quoted below, for us 'mercans, it'd be as if we lost the Vice President and his spouse, the entire Joint Chiefs of Staf
254 FLYAWA : What were the pre-flight weather observations at the destination prior to departure on such a short hop? Could weather have deteriorated so much, so q
255 acabgd : As mentioned previously, the Yak-40 carrying Polish journalists landed about 2 hours earlier, then the Russian Il-76 made an approach and decided to
256 WROORD : As far as it is widely said the President was not much of a drinker. This is a bit out of line in my opinion...especially considering the purpose of
257 Post contains links FLYAWA : Wikipedia coverage provides interesting insights and possibilities for this incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash
258 Post contains links rafaelyyz : Polish TV reported that the aircraft first hit an antenna or some sort of approach light and then hit the trees. This is also indicated in the follow
259 Post contains links rafaelyyz : Interesting animation, albeit maybe speculative, can be found on this page: (video, mid-way down): http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomos...,Piloci_zdec
260 Post contains links Danny : They flew from Warsaw to Smolensk. That is a rather short distance, very very below the Tu-154s range Large version here: http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/
261 cysafan : The Polish AF plane should have been fitted with fly-by-wire which can minimise or even prevented that pilot error and things will not be like today..
262 Post contains images cysafan : OMG!! That is really a baby can't cry over a spilled milk!! Majority of the politicians and VIPs are DEAD!!! OMG!! They have lost one whole majority
263 3MilesToWRO : Whoa, whoa, cysafan. It's not a mojority of politicians. It's a lot of politicians but by far not even a significant fraction, not to mention majority
264 bjorn14 : I had earlier reports that the Russians spent at least an hour trying to put out the main fire. May or may not be fuel related.
265 David L : We don't even know what happened, never mind why. The aircraft was quite possibly flying very well until it hit the ground.
266 Starlionblue : Incorrect. FBW is not a safety net. FBW in its purest sense doesn't even have envelope protection. Airbus style FBW with envelope protection would no
267 David L : To be honest, I can't remember what I read about a post-crash fire. I have to admit that I did fall into the old trap of confusing "fuel starvation"
268 pylon101 : But it didn't prevent Armavia A-320 from flying into the sea a few years ago.
269 Starlionblue : Aren't we agreeing here?
270 Post contains images trystero : RIP for all on board, and best thoughts for family and friends. Acordingly to the latest news the flight data was recovered and is in good conditions,
271 LTC8K6 : So the black line is the proper glideslope and it was well below that and began to hit things before crashing?
272 YYZYYT : Starlionblue beat to me to this point... - VIP / presidential aircraft, 20 yrs old (give or take) - based on a commercial design that is 40 yrs old (
273 sovietjet : What the hell does FBW have anything to do with the safety of the aircraft?? FBW simply replaces mechanical control linkages with electric cables.
274 acabgd : Please enlighten us what is the pilot error which in this case could've been prevented by fly-by-wire. I'm still shocked by what some people post her
275 pylon101 : Well, still it is misterious a little bit: the aircraft was supposed to keep 60 meters (ca. 200 ft) to catch runway. It's very low for a beast with a
276 Post contains images Pihero : One of the characteristics of this accident is the - relatively speaking - low impact speed, mainly tangential to the ground and dislocation through
277 Post contains images rfields5421 : Apparently the NDB was located quite a bit east of the field to align with the runway heading. On an approach from the west, keeping the NDB aligned
278 rfields5421 : Might also mention that from looking at the site on Google Earth, it appears that near where the plane struck the first objects, the ground is about
279 pylon101 : Regarding updated avionics. In Russian news they showed cockpit of 102 in Samara. It was not a modern glass cockpit, of course. But there was FMS - or
280 Post contains images David L : Yes, I was too lazy to go back and check but I was really just making the point that, even without a fire, though possible, it just doesn't seem like
281 rafaelyyz : From what is known thus far, 1.5km out everything looked fine. Then an increase in the descent rate until the 1km mark when they hit the first object.
282 rafaelyyz : It's hard to imagine that the Polish Air Force would confuse the two. But if what the Russians are saying is true, that these Polish pilots had probl
283 comorin : Pihero, there have been several low-speed crashes, including the LHR T7, where at least a few pax have been able to walk away from the debris. How co
284 giopan1975 : Didn't BA 777 crash at stall speed?
285 A342 : First, the 777 pilots were fully aware of their situation and prepared for the crash-landing accordingly. Second, the 777 didn't crash in a forest an
286 acabgd : I call it facts as the weather was confirmed by both Polish and Russian officials to have been below minima and Russian officials also confirmed that
287 Kaiarahi : The "fact" that the weather was below minima (if it was, consistently - fog banks have a habit of rolling through) says nothing about planning, or la
288 Starlionblue : If there's no ILS, there's no glideslope to intercept ("catch"). Of course the aircraft was low. The pilots were was landing! Your comment about the
289 Post contains links David L : I don't think anyone is suggesting that "the Polish Air Force" would confuse the two, just that a couple of individuals, more used to operating on QN
290 acabgd : They seemed so determined to land that they finally crashed. If they've planned for a diversion in advance (and they should've known what kind of wea
291 rafaelyyz : I deliberately typed "Polish Air Force" to emphasize, perhaps poorly, that having Russia practically next door, and having been a Soviet satellite fo
292 Post contains links kubus : It hasn't been mentioned but the same crew of the fatal flight on Sat, was in Smolensk on Wed with the Prime Minister Tusk. So it's not like they were
293 rafaelyyz : LOL, is that the Russian alphabet stuck to the side there? Perhaps not a good example.
294 rfields5421 : They made one approach ONLY to see if they could land. Since they were at least 1 km from the threshold they may not yet have reached the minima poin
295 sovietjet : It is an active military airbase and has RSBN
296 Aesma : I read somewhere that often in Russia there would be two NDB, one at each end of the runway, with the one on the opposite side of the approach path a
297 giopan1975 : Fierce and irresponsible speculation from people I know and live in Russia suggests that Putin somehow brought down the plane because the Polish were
298 3MilesToWRO : Yeah. He's a known fisherman so he hid in the trees, hooked the airplane with his fishing stick and brought it down.
299 3MilesToWRO : 777 crashed wings level. Had 154 crashed wings level in this little forest, the outcome would be much different.
300 3MilesToWRO : Well, let's not exaggerate. Everyone was learning Russian but this doesn't mean everyone knows it, not to mention knows well. Especially after 15 yea
301 Burkhard : No. Fullstop. Putin himself was very interested in the ceremony, since it would have served as a solution of one of the outstanding problems. Improve
302 Pihero : Questions : - What were the minima ? - What was the approach procedure they were shooting ? -You're citing several times an NDB approach. Where is th
303 ThirtyEcho : Pihero: not a lot of info here and it would be very nice if someone could post the current plate. Conventional wisdom, so far, is that it was an NDB a
304 David L : If a source hasn't already been posted then, yes, you do. Fair enough. My main reason for mentioning it was to show that there are many things that c
305 Post contains links acabgd : Where do I find justification that they were determined to land? Well, if you have a non-precision approach with weather below minima and you still t
306 Danny : Plates for russian military airports are not published.
307 ThirtyEcho : I didn't ask if it was published; I asked if anybody had one.
308 David L : For the sake of argument, if they went below minima, did they know they had gone below minima - i.e. was it deliberate or did they misjudge where the
309 Pihero : Certainly not : Your picture only shows the very derelict eastern apron of that military airport and the two taxiways (?), the right one leading to t
310 Burkhard : You are aware that if somebody publishes secret Russian military information on the web his health insurance will not cover what follows...
311 rolfen : I would like to know what airline you are talking about and keep in mind that airlines are free to give or make up any reasons they want. I think the
312 Starlionblue : Quite. Those things apply to planes like the DC-9 and the 727, plenty of which are in service and which few people would consider unsafe types. Sure,
313 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Do you really think ground transportation is part of the pilots' flight planning?
314 David L : Good point. Anyway, on similar occasions, including in the West, are the alternative plans usually reported? Unless those plans are put into action,
315 giopan1975 : How on earth could the prospect of a logistical nightmare or "pressure from behind" justify some "hawk" crashing an aircraft with 90 souls on board?
316 Post contains images cysafan : It is actually not pilot error at all... Report also says in the CVR that the pilot was simply been pressurised by the President to land the aircraft
317 Post contains links AVLNative : Interesting... http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100413/158559617.html Crashed Polish plane landed without permission - air traffic controller The crew of th
318 rolfen : With the Captain being the final authority on board, doesn't bad judgment qualify as pilot error?[Edited 2010-04-13 07:36:14]
319 Post contains links Mir : Just because something doesn't justify a crash doesn't mean it can't be a cause. It's been reported that the Polish president has a history of pressu
320 Starlionblue : The hypothetical scenario you describe sounds exactly like pilot error...
321 giopan1975 : If "pressure from behind" is the actual "cause" then the deceased captain took not 1 but 2 wrong decisions and he is fully responsible for the accide
322 KochamLOT : PIC is a PIC. This term does not change from country to country. Being the PIC of a flight such as that one is not one that just any pilot can fly - i
323 Post contains images rfields5421 : So do you have evidence the crew was not trying to execute a missed approach? They made an approach and went down. That is all we know. We don't know
324 David L : What report? Where did you read that the CVR reveals pressure from the president? The alleged "four failed attempts" to land has also been questioned
325 giopan1975 : Excuse me but what completion of what mission are we talking about? Landing safely or attending some ceremony? Or some other mission we do not know?
326 David L : Since they didn't land, I wonder how they can say that. We don't know if they had decided to land. Is that report confirmed or is it just another med
327 David L : In a perfect world, both. Anything else is a compromise, at best.
328 rfields5421 : Two, or more, NDB on a runway centerline on opposite ends occurs, or rather did occur, frequently in the US. NDB are being phased out in the US. And
329 rfields5421 : He was the president of the nation. Apparently the top figure in the government of that nation. The Mission was for him and a delegation to attend a
330 giopan1975 : So you are saying that Air Force pilots are brain washed to often compromise flight safety in order to accomplish their mission? And even if the answ
331 Kaiarahi : I don't read him as saying anything of the kind - you're putting words into his mouth and creating straw men.
332 giopan1975 : So what do you think Kaiarahi? Are AF pilots trained to often compromise flight safety in order to accomplish their mission or not? Or is getting bac
333 3MilesToWRO : As a matter of fact, this is what soldiers are for. Soldiers are not for safety, soldiers are for completing the mission. And it's not so easy to cha
334 Post contains images David L : I'm quite sure they're not "trained to often compromise flight safety" but, as human beings in the military, their judgement might be influenced by t
335 David L : I don't know how the odds are but if it turns out to be true then it would have to come from other evidence, evidence that we haven't seen so far.
336 Post contains links Pihero : Hi ! Perhaps you'd like to download the whole sat picture of the accident site here the earlier traces of the impacts are quite visible, especially a
337 acabgd : No, the wreckage is to the left of the centerline, the first point of impact seems to be dead on the centerline. Oh, no I don't have the slightest id
338 Pihero : You can twist and you can wriggle all you want, the picture you linked doesn't give you that info. Hence your mistaken comment on not-aloigned, and m
339 Kaiarahi : I've never flown a VIP flight. But I did fly Hercs into Vietnam at the end of the war. As a military pilot, you are briefed on and aware of the wider
340 Kaiarahi : Amen.
341 Post contains images acabgd : Then i must again emphasize what I said above, you should really try to read the replies of other more thoroughly. If from this you've read only plan
342 Post contains links Pihero : To my knowledge, the first CNN report. CNN Report on TU 154 Crash A very interesting piece of news as it seems that there are different standards on a
343 David L : But your initial comment, among the other things you said, implied that they were flying off the centre-line. That they started to deviate to the lef
344 Post contains links 3MilesToWRO : Of course, you are absolutely right. But before we have evidence, we have only media information and Looks very much like inner half of outboard flap
345 rfields5421 : No, of course not. There is a reason for every flight. For some flights a pilot and the flight planners have to consider the wider mission as a coupl
346 Post contains images 3MilesToWRO : Well, it's CNN after all. Not some "Sleepy Hollow Courier" And anyway, he does not wander so freely. He could go few meters left and right from the r
347 3MilesToWRO : Nothing more than fog. Wind 3 m/s I've heard, cold indeed. Not a single voice blaming other weather conditions.
348 acabgd : Why I would expect it? Because it was a VVIP flight and things happen. If the US President flies, say, from Washington to San Francisco, I'm almost s
349 David L : You're still missing the point. Why would you expect such arrangements to be reported? Do you see alternative arrangements reported every time there'
350 giopan1975 : I do not think that there are any signs of an attempted missed approach. Rather signs of "lost in fog" or of childish persistent to locate the runway
351 giopan1975 : He could have taken some of the debris as a souvenir back home to carry on the investigation himself.
352 Pihero : Actually, the days of the "look see" are long gone : Nowadays,either you are above the minima, and you can start an approach , or you ain't and there
353 3MilesToWRO : Visibility is reported to have been 400m.
354 Post contains links and images BuyantUkhaa : I hadn't seen the second photo yet, but I used the first as an overlay on G Earth with the centre line and what seems to be the direction of impact:
355 Kaiarahi : I've just remembered another example. When Obama visited YOW was about 30 minutes behind sked. Obama had an important engagement in Washington (I've
356 acabgd : Aaah, sorry my bad. Well, certainly not reported previous to the accident because of clear security implications, but once this tragedy happened I wo
357 giopan1975 : If that plane had hit some debris and had turned into the newest version of the Concorde with the US Pres on board, then anybody would have every rig
358 Pihero : @3Miles to WRO 400 meters,yes, but at the civilian weather station, apparently. You're in Poland and you should be more aware of the political implica
359 Post contains images David L : I'm not convinced. I think everyone would be far more preoccupied with what had happened. It would be quite naive PR to blurt out that sort of inform
360 Kaiarahi : If pilots adopted your view of risk, there'd be no flights - ever! In fact, the pilots would never get out of bed in the morning.[Edited 2010-04-13 1
361 Aesma : The permission was not necessary, it means that the controller is not taking responsibility. Interesting points. Maybe should they have traveled the
362 Kaiarahi : He is the head of state, although the prime minister may functionally have more powers.
363 rfields5421 : I haven't seem any of that in the US media. Very interesting. Thank you. Thanks for the information. I'm always a bit concerned when the information
364 rafaelyyz : They would have known, presumably, that the yak-40 carrying reporters from the media had already landed prior. Therefore they would have surmised tha
365 WROORD : Isn't true that Russian measure the altitude differently. I know there is something with that being different that would explain why the traffic cont
366 Post contains links rafaelyyz : New info being reported, if I understand correctly, that the pilot increased thrust, attempted to gain altitude while initiating a turn at the same ti
367 Aesma : I don't know if you could say it's the same as AF1, but that probably applies to any country outside the US. The 154s were the bigger in the fleet so
368 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The aircraft in question is indeed Poland's "Air Force One". The 36th Special Aviation Regiment, based in Warsaw, operates a fleet of Mi-8 Helicopter
369 Aesma : Russians use meters. How I envy them ! Interesting. That would go well with spatial disorientation : they realized they were too low, but too late. e
370 rafaelyyz : I believe they're not even going to wait for the next administration. I'm trying to find the source at the moment where this was announced. Changes w
371 Ltbewr : Is it possible that the Pilots and other flight crew were not sufficiently aware of their situation, altitude, speed due to the distractions of having
372 pylon101 : Altimeter settings might be an issue due to different requirements. Though Russian requirements obviously didn't apply to Polish AF1. Here is from our
373 3MilesToWRO : Naming "Polish Air Force One" is actually only a joke. As it's for almost all other "local AF1". Air Force One is actually not a plane, it's an istit
374 acabgd : The airport should not have been unfamiliar to the crew, as they flew the Polish prime minister to the same field last Wednesday.
375 Post contains images CharlieNoble : Haha good one Burkhard. Although it makes me laugh to think that even a military base approach plate would be a 'secret'. Are they afraid that the en
376 Kaiarahi : No pilot I know would call him/herself familiar with an airport after one landing and one take-off.
377 David L : That's what I was wondering. Due to their recent visit, we can probably say they weren't "unfamiliar" with the airport but can we say with confidence
378 rfields5421 : Anyone heard anything about temperatures? The CNN reporter said there were patches of unmelted snow on the ground in the area in his written story. C
379 Starlionblue : Well, technically Air Force One is not a specific aircraft. Any Air Force Aircraft flying the US President is designated "Air Force One", whether it
380 3MilesToWRO : I've heard about 1 degree Celsius, so not much. Indeed, sudden icing could drag them lower than expected.
381 rfields5421 : Yes we know that, in extreme detail. But besides the specific definition as the aircraft with the US President aboard, Air Force One is also widely u
382 Post contains links rfields5421 : http://www.thenews.pl/national/artyk...wo-landing-attempts--not-four.html Two of three black boxes examined. Two landing attempts Okay, how much of wh
383 Kaiarahi : If the previous flight had been in VFR conditions with an opposite approach, you could probably say they were familiar with the taxiways and not much
384 Burkhard : As it has been pointed out, this is a strange flight. The president is not the head of the Government in Poland. The Prime Minister represented Polan
385 Jarek : A lot of miss information in your post. The President is not the head of the government in Poland, but he is the Head of State. By constitution he re
386 Kaiarahi : Not so. The ceremony was held the previous Wednesday and was attended by PMs Tusk and Putin. President Kaczynski was not invited, so decided to hold
387 Post contains links AVLNative : I think that we're going to see a variety of claims as this unfolds, for example http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-plane-crash-claims-Polish-MP.
388 pylon101 : Wow. It is turning into a "psycho-maniac post traumatic depression" with Moscow' hand everywhere. Actually Russian officals put much hope on this even
389 Post contains links dstefanc : Here is the latest information I read. The article is in polish, so I will just give a summary of the details: It states that the crew knew for about
390 acabgd : Isn't that way too fast if they were going for the approach? 160 meters per second is 310 knots!?
391 Kaiarahi : Looks like more misinformation. The wreckage doesn't look like a 300+ kt impact.
392 dstefanc : That seemed odd to me as well, but I quoted what the text was saying. Maybe they made a mistake with the units (common - look at NASA) and meant to w
393 Kaiarahi : They only thing they left out was that Putin was hiding in the trees with his fishing rod, snared the plane as it passed overhead, and reeled it down
394 L410Turbolet : Talk about overstatement of a century. Putin is the chief whitewasher of Soviet history, Stalin's era in particular. Huh? You seem to be completely l
395 Danny : Not at all, it's just one idiot and he has been widely condemned in Poland. It is good for ordinary Russians to learn what happened in Katyn as well.
396 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Awww...c'mon. You miss Mars orbit one time and nobody ever lets you live it down. Besides...the error was made by Lockheed-Martin, not NASA.
397 pylon101 : Something is really wrong with numbers here. 150 meters per sec is 540 km/h What could make them fly that fast? Also having such a speed they could e
398 Pihero : Not really. It depends whether both people want to bury the hatchet and start again in a new peaceful relationship. Hence a very visible ceremony in
399 3MilesToWRO : All those "3 to 5 seconds" and "speed 150 to 180 m/s" come from General Prosecutor office or similar source. So from no one of any aircraft knowledge,
400 pylon101 : The Chairwoman of the Interstate Aviation Committee (MAK) stated there had been no pressure on the crew on the tape. She also asked to ignore news out
401 Post contains links EI787 : Please continue here: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk (Part 2) (by EI787 Apr 15 2010 in Military Aviation & Space Flight) Many thanks. Any addi
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