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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk  
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7329 posts, RR: 14
Posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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BBC has breaking news that plane with the Polish President has crashed on approach to Smolensk.

And a brief story has now been put up but I expect will be updated with the tragic news.

[Edited 2010-04-10 00:45:02]

401 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLOT767SP-LPA From Poland, joined May 2002, 156 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

87 dead   very sad day for poland

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2607 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Oh my God.... What type of airplane did he use?

User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5909 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Would this have been a chartered LOT plane, or does the Polish Air Force still have their Tu154?

User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 2992 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Hardly any details out yet. I hope it's not going to get worse  

RIP to the victims!

Aeroflot777


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 2992 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Russian media reporting the TU-154 went down on landing into Smolensk. President was confirmed on board, and no survivors are found. Everyone perished.  

Aeroflot777


User currently offlinef.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1523 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

RIP. Very sad news.
What type of aircraft was it?


User currently offlineTobseren From Denmark, joined Sep 2006, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 3):
Would this have been a chartered LOT plane, or does the Polish Air Force still have their Tu154?

I think it is the Tu-154, the last picture taken of the Polish Tupolev on airliners.net is from 25th of March 2010.


Sad situation, RIP.



Flown on: A300, A320, A321, ATR42, ATR72, B733, B738, E170, MD82, Saab 340
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 2992 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

http://gazeta.ru/news/lastnews/2010/04/10/n_1481368.shtml

Press is mentioning that Polish teams say the aircraft crashed on approach, right on final it hit a tree and then went on fire by the time it hit the runway. Doesn't seem good. But media can be wrong as usual. Let's hope.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

It was a Tu 154M like this:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rafael Nunes



The President of Poland with his wife and many officials on board. RIP

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:03:11]

User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

No information on the aircraft. I just tuned in to N24 but no information so far except for the breaking news ticker. Any additional information available says that 84 people died in the crash, including Lech Kaczynski and his wife.

Unless he always travels with a big staff, my guess is that the aircraft was civilian.

EDIT: N24 is now presuming that it was indeed the Presidential Tu-154. They also say that the landing was apparently in the fog.

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:02:58]

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:03:35]

User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

"MOSCOW (BNO NEWS) -- Reports say a plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed at Smolensk Airport in Russia's Smolensk Oblast.

http://wireupdate.com/wires/2914/bno-eu-int-bulletin-11/"


Polish President Lech Kaczynski 'in plane crash'
Russia map

A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed near a Russian airport, officials say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8612825.stm

Unconfirmed but apparently the President is dead among at least 80 others

RIP Mr President and all those who died in the crash.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 2):
What type of airplane did he use?

If at least 87 people were on board, it can't be the Yak-40. so I guess it's probably a Tu-154.

Just reported on the news by the Polish Authorities : No survivors. The President of Poland and several Polish Officials and families were on board.
Mr Kaczynski was due to visit Smolensk to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviet troops killed thousands of Poles.

The plane hit trees on approach, crashed and caught fire.

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:05:46]

User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26478 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Aircraft was trying to land in heavy fog , President was on his way to attend a memorial service for Polish troops.


AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting oa260 (Reply 13):
Aircraft was trying to land in heavy fog , President was on his way to attend a memorial service for Polish troops.

It was 70th anniversary of Katyn masacre, hence many other officials were with him.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5909 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

A very sad day indeed, RIP to all the victims  

User currently offlineViper911 From Russia, joined Oct 2005, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Israeli Media is stating that the aircraft crashed about 1.5km short of the runway, the aircraft in question is indeed a Polish TU-154

User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1727 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

AlJazeera indicates that the Polish President and his wife has died in the crash! RIP

Its his private Presidential Plane.



لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlinef.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1523 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I've just heard there were 132 pax onboard.

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 17):
AlJazeera indicates that the Polish President and his wife has died in the crash! RIP

Its his private Presidential Plane.

It was a military plane used by officials, not his private one.

Quoting f.pier (Reply 18):
I've just heard there were 132 pax onboard.

This aircraft only had 87 seats.

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:29:43]

User currently offlineBritishWorld From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2010, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Regrettably, Sky News is also now reporting that the President was indeed killed in the crash. Deeply shocking news; it is a terrible day for any nation when it loses its leader.


"sic itur ad astra."
User currently offlineEBGARN From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Swedish media is reporting that also the head of the Polish central bank, the head of the Polish army, and the deputy foreign minister were on board.

A very sad day indeed!



A306,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343/6,A380,B717,B727,B737,B744,B752/3,B763,B772/3/W,C-130,AN26,CRJ900,Il62,DC-8/9/10,MD80's,BaeR
User currently offlineFauzi From Brunei, joined Jul 2005, 217 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Yeah I just heard that too, but nothing official on CNN yet... Hope everything is alright  

Any idea what went wrong?



BI - The Asian Underdog
User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 41
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

MSNBC is reporting 132 were aboard - 87 dead - no survivors...... Obviously still a lot of confusion at this point.

Russian news agencies reported at least 87 people died in the crash near Smolensk airport in western Russia, citing the Russian Emergencies Ministry. They reported 132 people were aboard the Tupolev Tu-154.

Polish state news agency PAP said there were no survivors.


People often post what they see in the media, and we all know the media doesn't know what they're doing when it comes to aviation.

RIP to all aboard, what a sad day for Poland.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Thomas Brackx





[Edited 2010-04-10 01:35:36]


I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8488 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Danny (Reply 19):

It was a military plane used by officials

In that case isn't this thread in the wrong forum ? In any case , even though it is in the wrong forum this is very sad news . Sympathies to the people of Poland .

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:15:38]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineViper911 From Russia, joined Oct 2005, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Fauzi (Reply 22):
Any idea what went wrong?

Israeli media states that there was a heavy fog in the area, someone can confirm that? a very sad day indeed  


User currently onlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Google Earth shows two airports nearby..neither of which appear to have precision landing devices...ie ILS structures. Maybe they were making a non-precision approach and undershot.

User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5909 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 24):
In that case isn't this thread in the wrong forum ?

I think the general interest in the civilian aspect of this crash warrants that it stays here.

Especially since it looks like a good chunk of the Polish leadership has just been wiped out. The president, the leader of the opposition, the deputy secretary of state, the leader of the National Security Bureau, the Chief of Staff, and the list goes on.

[Edited 2010-04-10 01:30:09]

User currently offlineBritishWorld From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2010, 16 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 23):
Be nice - I doubt it was intentional. People often post what they see in the media, and we all know the media doesn't know what they're doing when it comes to aviation.

Quite true - and further to my post about Sky News' reporting of the President's "confirmed" death, I should just clarify that that assertion is coming from reports from Smolensk government officials that there were apparently no survivors. No word of who these officials might be, and how in the loop they are on these details, so of course - as with all breaking news situations - we must treat all news that comes out as being dubious until confirmed by multiple reliable sources.

For what it's worth, BBC News has also just mentioned claims by Russian news agencies that there were 132 people on board, but they've rightly labelled that claim as 'unconfirmed' and their own reportage is sticking with the total number of souls on board as 87.

On a personal note, I'd also like to add my sympathies to the people of Poland, and indeed to our Polish friends here on A.net for the loss to their nation; perhaps some here may have disagreed with the policies of President Kaczynski, but a national and human tragedy such as this really does transcend political divides in civilised societies. One hopes that the Polish people will find comfort in finding some unity with each other and with their global friends as the process of national healing begins in the wake of this disaster.



"sic itur ad astra."
User currently offlineChristopherwoo From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Just heard from my polish friend all passengers were officials, the top 80 in the country including popes and diplomats.... bad day

User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5909 posts, RR: 3
Reply 30, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Danish Tv-2 News is currently showing pictures from Polish TV, who apparently has found a camera crew who are at the scene. Plenty of debris spread around, with nothing immediately recognisable apart from the tail which has apparently survived in one piece. A couple of small fires are being put out by the firefighters who are on the scene.

Not sure if it's due to the fires, but it does appear to be a bit foggy.


User currently offlineAndrej From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 866 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Al Jazeera (ENG) just showed latest images. The crash site is in woods, the weather seemed foggy, and it does look indeed like Tu-154.

Really sad news indeed.

Cheers,
Andrej


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 32, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Truly shocking news...condolences to all Polish A-netters.

A terrible human tragedy, but by the sounds of it there will be a huge political void in Poland once the enormity of this sinks in.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 33, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 27):
it looks like a good chunk of the Polish leadership has just been wiped out. The president, the leader of the opposition, the secretary of state, the leader of the National Security Bureau, the Chief of Staff, and the list goes on.


Why did they put them all on one plane is one thing I can't understand.
My deep respect goes to the people and the Nation of Poland.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 34, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting f.pier (Reply 18):
I've just heard there were 132 pax onboard.
Quoting Danny (Reply 19):

This aircraft only had 87 seats.

f.pier is right.

132 are now confirmed dead including the President.

http://s.tf1.fr/mmdia/i/10/4/l-avion-du-president-polonais-qui-s-est-ecrase-en-russie-le-10-avril-4396104pdtcp_1713.jpg?v=1


User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 418 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Christopherwoo (Reply 29):
the top 80 in the country including popes and diplomats.... bad day

"popes" ......As far as I know, there is only one Pope  


User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 36, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

"A Polish government official said the head of the Polish army and the head of the presidential administration were also on board the plane, along with the president's wife and families of other senior officials. The plane was also carrying the governor of Poland's central bank, Slawomir Skrzypek."

RIP


User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26478 posts, RR: 58
Reply 37, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 34):
f.pier is right.

132 are now confirmed dead including the President.

We must be careful with the figures nothing confirmed and conflicting reports according to Sky News, so figures not exact yet.



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 38, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting oa260 (Reply 37):
Quoting FlySSC (Reply 34):
f.pier is right.

132 are now confirmed dead including the President.

We must be careful with the figures nothing confirmed and conflicting reports according to Sky News, so figures not exact yet.

Reuters is also now talking about 132 dead ... but you are right. We must be careful.
Some journalists are already reporting the plane crashed during its 4th attempt to land at Smolensk ... how can they know ?

We just saw the first image of the Crash on the French T.V, some debris were still on fire ...


User currently offlinemilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 39, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Read in a Polish newspaper that the plane was on approach, but due to heavy fog, declared missed approach and proceeded with the go-around. Whilst turning, it got caught on some trees. This according some Russian officials that the paper was quoting.

I guess the plane was about 40 years old and from what I read, the Polish government recently just ordered new executive planes.

/Milan320



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26478 posts, RR: 58
Reply 40, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I wonder if it was this one I photographed on my last trip to WAW.

.



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlinemxp From Italy, joined Aug 2003, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

This is indeed a horrible news

Rip to alll and condolances to the families

Alberto


User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting milan320 (Reply 39):
I guess the plane was about 40 years old

I don't know why you "guess" it was 40 years old?

It was produced in 1990, delivered July 1990.



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting oa260 (Reply 40):
I wonder if it was this one I photographed on my last trip to WAW

If the registration is 101 (can't really see on this photo) then - yes, that's the one.



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2226 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Serbian TV as well as the BBC confirm that the aircraft was instructed to divert to Moscow due to poor visibility but that the pilot elected to go ahead and attempt to land.


Kafa, čaj, šraf?
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 38):
Reuters is also now talking about 132 dead ... but you are right. We must be careful.

The spokeperson for Polish Foreign Affair Ministy has just confIrmed that there were 88 names on the passenger's list.


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (4 years 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Horrible news. Sad day in Poland today.   It is tragic and ironic that a disaster like this struck when the delegation was going to commemorate the events of Katyn.

Does anyone know, if the aircraft was 101 or 102? No luck finding a metar for Smolensk - the airport doesn't even seem to have an ICAO designator. I figure an ILS is also bit too much to be expected.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3238 posts, RR: 17
Reply 47, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting JoKeR (Reply 44):
Serbian TV as well as the BBC confirm that the aircraft was instructed to divert to Moscow due to poor visibility but that the pilot elected to go ahead and attempt to land.

Question.
If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineFatmirJusufi From Albania, joined Jan 2009, 2435 posts, RR: 7
Reply 48, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Sad news.  
RIP to all

Preliminary accident description
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20100410-0

Fatmir



DO FLIGHTS. NOT FIGHTS.
User currently offlinej0rdan From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Terrible news, very sad day in Poland.  Sad



Heres a news link for anybody intrested. (with video)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612825.stm]

RIP

jordan

[Edited 2010-04-10 02:21:52]

[Edited 2010-04-10 02:23:11]

User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 50, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Bad news and a sad day for Poland. May the victims rest in peace


R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineBeakerLTN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

BBC news now updated with video of crash site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8612825.stm



300/319/320/321/330/732/733/734/73G/738/744/772/77W/146/EMB135/EMB145
User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting acabgd (Reply 43):
If the registration is 101 (can't really see on this photo) then - yes, that's the one.

They also used 102 for the president.

Quoting OV735 (Reply 46):
No luck finding a metar for Smolensk - the airport doesn't even seem to have an ICAO designator. I figure an ILS is also bit too much to be expected.

Smolensk has both an airport and an air base. The airport (LNX) runway seems to be too short for a Tu-154 (5500ft) so I'm guessing they were headed to the base (XUBS), whose runway is 8400ft.


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 53, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 46):
Does anyone know, if the aircraft was 101 or 102?

It seems to be 101

http://s.tf1.fr/mmdia/i/19/7/l-avion-du-president-polonais-qui-s-est-ecrase-en-russie-le-10-avril-4396197smbdw_1713.jpg?v=1


User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 46):
No luck finding a metar for Smolensk - the airport doesn't even seem to have an ICAO designator. I figure an ILS is also bit too much to be expected.

The plane was landing at Smolensk-North, ICAO designator XUBS.

Smolensk-South (IATA: LNX) is a very small airport with a short runway (1600m / 5249ft).



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3235 posts, RR: 32
Reply 55, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
Question.
If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?

My guess is that the pilot has a final word. At least, he's the one with all responsibilities



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineGdabski From Poland, joined Oct 2001, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 52):

They also used 102 for the president.

102 is undergoing maintainence/overhaul in Moscow.


User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 57, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Very sad and easily avoidable accident...

Is it the first time a head of state is killed in a plane crash?

Does Poland have a Vice-President, or who's going to succeed?


User currently offlineViper911 From Russia, joined Oct 2005, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 57):
Does Poland have a Vice-President, or who's going to succeed?

According to Wikipedia its Bronisław Komorowski, in don't know if its official or not, plus i don't dent to trust Wikipedia so much..


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 59, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Bronislaw Komorowski is the speaker of the Parlament house, who becomes acting president in case of elected president's death.

Also, apparently all Polish military Chiefs of Staff have perished.

[Edited 2010-04-10 02:47:26]


All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 60, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 57):
Is it the first time a head of state is killed in a plane crash?

No.

In 1994 the President Juvenal Habvarimana of Rwanda and President Cyprian Ntayamira of Burundi were on board the same aircraft that crashed near Kigali Airport.

in 2004, President Boris Trajkovski of Macedonia died in a plane crash in Bosnia.

In 2008, Samora Machel, the Mozambican president died in crash of a Tupolev TU 134A-3, on its way home following the Lusaka Summit in Zambia.


User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 61, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 58):
According to Wikipedia its Bronisław Komorowski, in don't know if its official or not

He's just acting President, since he's the Speaker of the House.

Apparently, there's no VP in Poland.


User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 62, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 60):
In 1994 the President Juvenal Habvarimana of Rwanda and President Cyprian Ntayamira of Burundi were on board the same aircraft that crashed near Kigali Airport.

How could I have forgotten about that one!

In a former Belgian colony... leading to the mass killing of over a million people and a huge scandal in my country over us just standing by and watching at it!

  


User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1933 posts, RR: 9
Reply 63, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

May they all Rest in Piece.


Next Flights: 18/04/14 QF1011 MEL-HBA; 21/04/14 JQ712 HBA-MEL
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 64, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

List of those on board.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/wiadomosci/kraj/artykul153440.html

(all in Polish)

R.I.P.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 65, posted (4 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Several sources are stil mentioning 132 dead...

The InterFax agency is reporting that the Russian authorities proposed to the crew to divert to Minsk or Moscow because of the fog but the pilot decided to try to land in Smolensk.
InteFax is also saying the plane crashed during its 4th attempt to land ...
Yet to be confirmed ...


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (4 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 65):
Several sources are stil mentioning 132 dead...

If my counting is correct, there are 98 names on the pax manifest.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3238 posts, RR: 17
Reply 67, posted (4 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 60):
No.

Will also add:
President Abdul Salam Arif of Iraq died in a helicopter crash in 1966.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5909 posts, RR: 3
Reply 68, posted (4 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 61):
Apparently, there's no VP in Poland.

As I understand it, the role of the Polish President is largely ceremonial. The position is 'merely' that of head of state, whereas the real day to day power lies with the Prime Minister.


User currently offlinemilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 69, posted (4 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting acabgd (Reply 42):

Don't shoot the messenger, just rehashing what I read in the newspaper. Maybe the meant AC type is 40 years old. Not sure.



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (4 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting milan320 (Reply 72):
Don't shoot the messenger, just rehashing what I read in the newspaper. Maybe the meant AC type is 40 years old.

Sorry, you said "I guess the plane is 40 years old" and I just asked "Why guess"?

The type might be as old as you want it to be, it's the maintenance that counts. Plenty of DC-9s with over 40 years of age flying around the US daily and not a single problem.

AC "type being 40 years old" then also includes B737, B747 and many others still flying fine today. This Polish presidential aircraft was delivered at about the same time as the current US Air Force One(s), therefore it's got nothing to do with its age.

There was no distress call reported and it seems the pilot tried to land several times, although advised to use alternates such as Minsk or Moscow. I don't want to speculate further, but it seems the plane was not at fault here at all.



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 71, posted (4 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting milan320 (Reply 72):
Don't shoot the messenger, just rehashing what I read in the newspaper. Maybe the meant AC type is 40 years old.

Both Tu-154Ms have been delivered in late 1980s (1989 IIRC), so they were not really that old. I'd say they were on par with most of government VIP aircraft in the majority of the other countries.



All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineLtbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12877 posts, RR: 12
Reply 72, posted (4 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

One news report I heard here in the USA suggested that the a/c was considering to divert to another one due to the fog conditions. That diversion would have caused greater difficulty for the passangers who were to appear at a ceremony as to a site of a great human rights mass murder at Kaytan in 1940, including many Polish citizens.
Unless the failure was due to a mechanical failure (as occured with 2 flights of LOT in the 1980's), we have to reason that the heavy fog conditions were a major contribution to this crash. To all killed, RIP.


User currently offlinejayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (4 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

May the President and pilots,and all of the occupants Rest in Peace.


Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlinemorvious From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 705 posts, RR: 1
Reply 74, posted (4 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

People died and all we care is why this post has been mooved.

R.I.P. to all who died and my condolences to families and friends.



have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6094 posts, RR: 9
Reply 75, posted (4 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Probably no ILS. Can a TU-154M sport a HUD ?

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 35):
"popes" ......As far as I know, there is only one Pope

One Catholic Pope, sure, but there are others. Although here he probably meant priests.

Quoting acabgd (Reply 42):
I don't know why you "guess" it was 40 years old?

It was produced in 1990, delivered July 1990.

Yeah, the TU-154 EIS is not even 40 years ago, and the TU-154M EIS is 1982.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
Question.
If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?

In a functional chain of command, the captain has the final word. If the president is not a pilot, he should not even be consulted. But there sure is pressure. The plane was also loaded with officers, that can't help.

Not wanting to jump to conclusion, but if it was indeed the 4th try, that doesn't sound good, you shouldn't try that much, too much stress involved.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (4 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 72):
Unless the failure was due to a mechanical failure (as occured with 2 flights of LOT in the 1980's)

Heh... If a plane crashes in the US would you go and say "Just as happpened in 1990s and 1980s and 1970s and....?? The two LOT crashes were back in different times, with different planes and have really absolutely nothing to do with this crash apart from the planes coming from the same country.

Furthermore, there is up to now absolutely no hint of any mechanical failure, so why point to the 2 LOT crashes some 30 years ago?



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6094 posts, RR: 9
Reply 77, posted (4 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

One black box recovered, according to Agence France Presse.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinebigphilnyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 78, posted (4 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Condolences to all Polish peopel and our aviation friends. What a horrible disaster.


Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6094 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

AFP also reports more victims, unfortunately : 96 total, including 88 members of the delegation, and I guess 8 crew.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11912 posts, RR: 25
Reply 80, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I'm so sorry to hear about this.

Poland is a great partner of the EU and in NATO.

And is working hard to improve relations with Russia.

One article mentions how Poland's GDP is growing even in these tough times so they should feel proud.

It makes the loss of so much of their leadership even more difficult to bear.

Rest in peace, and know that better days lie ahead!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinetom355uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 336 posts, RR: 3
Reply 81, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 76):
Probably no ILS. Can a TU-154M sport a HUD ?

I dont think so, but even a HUD is pretty useless without any form of vertical guidance. The best weather report I have seen states a visibility of around 0.5km. Even if your MDA was 350ft AAL you would be over 2km from the TDZ at that point, thats well into CATII ops. What type of Non-precision approach is there at Smolensk airbase? I would have guessed NDB, but I really don't know - can't locate any sources.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited 2010-04-10 05:28:52]

[Edited 2010-04-10 05:29:35]


on Twitter @tombeckett2285
User currently offlineaerdingus From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 2755 posts, RR: 15
Reply 82, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

This is just terrible. Condolences to the Polish community. Hope they find out the cause soon.

Just watching the Euronews coverage of the crash, and am kind of disappointed that they are going down the "this plane was delivered in 1990" and even "Russian airline SU retired it's TU 154 fleet due to safety concerns". Eh was it not because they were gas guzzlers. 1990 isn't that long ago, the Irish government uses a Gulfstream from 1991.

[Edited 2010-04-10 05:40:44]


Cabin crew blog http://dolefuldolegirl.blogspot.ie/
User currently offlineosteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Bild Online is reporting that the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk refused to fly the Tupolev planes of the Polish Air Force.

After this happened maybe some people understand the decision of the German government to buy new planes for official trips.


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 84, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 75):
Not wanting to jump to conclusion, but if it was indeed the 4th try, that doesn't sound good, you shouldn't try that much, too much stress involved.

I agree with you. Many civil airlines only allow pilots a specific number of tries before going to alternate airport. Without jumping to conclusions it seems strange that such a flight with government officials is not conducted with more modern equipment. Also an ordinary ILS would be no problem if within minima for a qualified airline crew.



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineosteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Navigator (Reply 84):
I agree with you. Many civil airlines only allow pilots a specific number of tries before going to alternate airport. Without jumping to conclusions it seems strange that such a flight with government officials is not conducted with more modern equipment. Also an ordinary ILS would be no problem if within minima for a qualified airline crew.

Some news agencies are speculating that the pilot was instructed to try it so that they did not miss the very important commemoration event.


User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 418 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 83):
After this happened maybe some people understand the decision of the German government to buy new planes for official trips.

Does the German government use Tupolev aircraft?


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6094 posts, RR: 9
Reply 87, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Video of the crash site : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMwhZtlQ2hY

You can stop at 43", after that it rewinds. The woman seems to be reading names of victims. I didn't see anything shocking.

A Russian illustration :



from http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2010/04/10/3349949.shtml

It seems the plane hit the last trees before an opening in the forest for the runway (can also be guessed in the video) :

http://hfr-rehost.net/http://nsa14.casimages.com/img/2010/04/10/100410021000520030.jpg

Courtesy of Spit XIX from crash-aerien.aero



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 88, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 83):
Bild Online is reporting that the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk refused to fly the Tupolev planes of the Polish Air Force.

When Donald Tusk visited Tallinn, he flew on a Yak-40. I don't see why he would refuse to fly on a much more modern Tupolev, if he was fine with the Yak. Probably just a tabloid-style claim.

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 86):
Does the German government use Tupolev aircraft?

The government of the DDR did, and the Tu-154 was taken over and used by the Luftwaffe after the reunion, until late 1990's, when it collided with an USAF C141 somewhere over Southern Africa.


User currently offlinemiszaqq From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 55):
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
Question.
If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?

My guess is that the pilot has a final word. At least, he's the one with all responsibilities

Just to clarify some things, on the official passanger list there were 89 names (but one person never get on board the aircraft, so there were 88 people) plus 7 crew members, so some media may probably add 89 passangers and 7 crew members.

Remember that there were President and Polish Air Force Commander (Lt. Gen. Andrzej BLASIK) onboard, and apparently they were going late, as that crash happened at 8:56 and the ceremony they were heading to was due to start at 9:30. It was also their 4th approach to land at Smolensk airport, and my guess is that the pilot may have been simply ordered to land here and now, or beeing under so much pressure with all those onboard that he decided to try again and again.

There are also a story from august 2008 when the polish, ukrainian, lithuanian, latvian and estonian presidenst were onboard of polish TU154 (don't if the same that crashed today), and due to security pilot refused to land in Georgia capital Tibilisi, and diverted the plane to Azerbaijan. That time he refused to follow the order given to him by deputy of Polish Air Force Commander, but later he (the pilot - Grzegorz Pietruczuk) was granted with medal from polish ministry of defence.

So maybe this time they ordered the pilot to land despite bad weather conditions at smolensk airport.

On board of todays filght that crashed in smolensk were:

Gen. Bronislaw Kwiatkowski (Commander Operations)
Gen. Andrew Blasik (Air Force Commander in Chief)
Gen. Tadeusz Buk (Commander of Land Forces)
Gen. Wojciech Potasinski (Commander of Special Forces)
Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta (Commander in Chief of the Polish Navy)
Gen. Casimir Gilarski (Commander, Training)

plus

* Lech Kaczynski, the President of Poland
* Maria Kaczynska, the first lady
* Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last President of the Polish government-in-exile
* Jerzy Szmajdzinski, Deputy speaker of Sejm (Polish Parliament)
* Wladyslaw Stasiak, Minister of Internal Affairs and Administration
* Aleksander Szczyglo, head of the National Security Bureau
* Pawel Wypych, Secretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
* Mariusz Handzlik, Undersectretary of State for International Affairs
* Andrzej Kremer, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
* General Franciszek Gagor, Chief of the Polish Army General Staff
* Andrzej Przewoznik, Secretary-General of Rada Ochrony Pamie;ci Walk i Me;czen'stwa
* Grzegorz Dolniak, member of the Sejm
* Przemyslaw Gosiewski, Deputy Prime Minister of Poland
* Zbigniew Wassermann, member of the Sejm
* Janusz Kochanowski, Polish Ombudsman
* Slawomir Skrzypek, President of the National Bank of Poland
* Janusz Kurtyka, Historian and president of the Institute of National Remembrance
* Bishop Tadeusz Ploski


User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 90, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 86):
Does the German government use Tupolev aircraft?

No, they are using Challengers and 2 A310'a (which formerly belonged to the GDR leadership), but these will be replaced by new A319's and 2 ex-LH A340-300. Especially the Challenger jets have quite a long tech record, including some emergency landings with high-ranking politicans on board, so it's definitely worth modernizing the fleet.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlineukair From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 91, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

If conditions were below minimums why did it try to land? I'm afraid this is looking like pilot error.

User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 92, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting miszaqq (Reply 89):
Remember that there were President and Polish Air Force Commander (Lt. Gen. Andrzej BLASIK) onboard, and apparently they were going late, as that crash happened at 8:56 and the ceremony they were heading to was due to start at 9:30. It was also their 4th approach to land at Smolensk airport, and my guess is that the pilot may have been simply ordered to land here and now, or beeing under so much pressure with all those onboard that he decided to try again and again.

That is probably a fair guess, but in normal civil circumstances the Pilot in Command, (Flight Captain), is according to aviation rules and laws the only one allowed to make decisions concerning safety of the flight. This is the case no matter who is onboard, the Chief of Flight Operations or anybody else. The pilot in the flight plan stated as PIC = Pilot In Command is always in charge no matter what. The decisions of the PIC can never be overruled by anyone else onboard or on ground no matter what.

But this was a military flight...



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineosteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 93, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Navigator (Reply 92):
That is probably a fair guess, but in normal civil circumstances the Pilot in Command, (Flight Captain), is according to aviation rules and laws the only one allowed to make decisions concerning safety of the flight. This is the case no matter who is onboard, the Chief of Flight Operations or anybody else. The pilot in the flight plan stated as PIC = Pilot In Command is always in charge no matter what. The decisions of the PIC can never be overruled by anyone else onboard or on ground no matter what.

I am not sure if this is always the case. What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere. Can he refuse to do this? I am not sure if this law applies always and in all countries.


User currently offlinemirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7437 posts, RR: 62
Reply 94, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I heard the news this morning.

A very sad day for the Polish people, many of which I see and tend to everyday. My heart goes out to my polish friends and patients.

May the lost rest in peace and the living be consoled.


-mirrodie

[Edited 2010-04-10 06:08:35]


Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 95, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

My sympathy goes to Poland and all his people, in such a tragic - and cynic, if you think about it - moment. What lead half the government of Poland on the same airplane is beyond me anyway. May everybody rest in peace.

User currently offlineTobias2702 From Germany, joined Sep 2008, 700 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 93):
What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere.

IIRC, the US President is also the head of the Armed Forces. Now idea how this is in case of the Polish Army. But obviously there were some high ranking generals on board.



PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
User currently offlinehugoandres1984 From Venezuela, joined Dec 2009, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (4 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

does anybody have the approach plate of that airport Posible CFIT

[Edited 2010-04-10 06:16:50]

User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 98, posted (4 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 93):
I am not sure if this is always the case. What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere. Can he refuse to do this? I am not sure if this law applies always and in all countries.

Of course the pilot of AF 1 has the authority to rule out any order coming from Obama if it concerns safety. Anything else would be stupidity. The pilot has more knowledge about flying a plane and the safety of the plane than the President. However if it is within safetymargins, of course the pilot will do as the President says.

And as you can understand, Obama being an educated and smart president he will of course always follow safety advices from his pilots....

I think you get the going here...

[Edited 2010-04-10 06:22:34]


747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3269 posts, RR: 2
Reply 99, posted (4 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 60):
In 1994 the President Juvenal Habvarimana of Rwanda and President Cyprian Ntayamira of Burundi were on board the same aircraft that crashed near Kigali Airport.

Not sure you can count this one as a "plane crash" It was shot down by some kind of land to air device as they were taking off. This what ignited the Rwandan genocide spree.

May G-d comfort everyone in their time of loss.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 915 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (4 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Some media are reporting that due to bad weather the plan must have hit the trees and burst into a fireball.

User currently offlinekubus From Poland, joined Dec 2005, 179 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (4 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Black Box was found according to InterFax (around 6:30A EST).

The TU154M had 5004 hours and 1823 landings. Went through D-Check (major tear down) in Dec'09 and since had 50 landing and 124 hours. It was certified for another 25 years of service.
Of note, the YAK-40 that supposed to take the press to Smolensk, had mechanical problem and the flight was switched to another YAK-40. Polish Gov't has 1 154M left (in D-Check as well), 4 YAK-40s, 3 M-28 Bryza, 6 Mi-8's, 5 Sokol (polish made chopper) and 1 Bell-412.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4946 posts, RR: 28
Reply 102, posted (4 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 44):
Serbian TV as well as the BBC confirm that the aircraft was instructed to divert to Moscow due to poor visibility but that the pilot elected to go ahead and attempt to land.

If this is the case, it was obviously a tragic mistake. I am deeply saddened for the people of Poland, and I send my deepest condolences. Damn, I wish we could turn back the hands of time.  

How is the ILS system in Smolensk? Could the system be manipulated to direct the aircraft wrongly perhaps? Excuse my ignorance to this, but I know there is some sour history between Russia and Poland. Also, is the TU-154 capable of landing in heavy fog? Meaning, do they have CAT II or III type systems on that particular aircraft? So many important people on this flight, it is a tragedy.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineViper911 From Russia, joined Oct 2005, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (4 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 102):
How is the ILS system in Smolensk?

IIRC, there is no ILS in both airports of Smolensk.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 104, posted (4 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 96):
IIRC, the US President is also the head of the Armed Forces. Now idea how this is in case of the Polish Army.

I just looked it up. The President of Poland is the commander in chief of the Polish Armed Forces, so he would thus be the head of the Armed Forces. However, the Minister of Defence also has command authority and I believe that the Polish President only takes over all the duties as head of the Polish Army in case of war (specifically in case of a direct attack on Poland and subsequent military retalliation).


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 105, posted (4 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 103):
IIRC, there is no ILS in both airports of Smolensk.

If that is so, then they should have diverted somewhere else. It would be irresponsible to land in the fog visually.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8637 posts, RR: 75
Reply 106, posted (4 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 105):
If that is so, then they should have diverted somewhere else. It would be irresponsible to land in the fog visually.

Military airports normally have the capability for talking pilots down on what is known as a precision radar approach (PAR), and military pilots are normally trained on flying them. A lot of military aircraft do not have ILS receivers, and the PAR allows them to get to ILS minima without an ILS installed.

I do not know if this is the type of approach they were conducting, I would just keep an open mind on other possibilities. As you said it would be “irresponsible to land in the fog visually”, and with the Polish President onboard I do not think they would be pushing the limits.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 107, posted (4 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

CNN London is covering the event as a breaking story and I would like to make some corrections to the wrong report made by Richard Quest:

- both Tu-154s operated by the 36th Special Squadron were not initially delivered to Lot Polish Airlines. They were delivered directly to the Polish Air Force, however, they wore initially a livery similar to Lots with navy-blue cheatline and tail.
- the aircraft is a regular "M" model, not some special military variant. It is fitted with VIP interior and secure communication link equipment, along with upgraded avionics.



All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlinemiszaqq From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 2 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (4 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

according to the picture of the passanger list published in one of polish portals/newspapers gazeta.pl it was TU-154M/101

it was late departure from warsaw airport, as the plane was scheduled 7:00am and it actually left at 7:56 (or 7:58) local warsaw time,

please see the attached printscreen with the passenger list

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/7930/presidentcrash.jpg

[Edited 2010-04-10 08:17:37]

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/7930/presidentcrash.jpg






[Edited 2010-04-10 08:26:07]

User currently offlineuzzzer From Ukraine, joined Dec 2006, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (4 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

They could have pushed the limits, considering the political circumstances. Polish president's rival - the prime minister Tusk was just in Katyn by Smolensk with his Russian counterpart Putin. So Lech Kaczynski has decided to go to the commemoration as well, mostly for internal Polish political reasons (Poland has scheduled presidential elections months away). Russian authorities have stated that the pilots were advised to divert either to Moscow or to Minsk because of weather conditions. It well could happen that after 3 missed approaches the president, faced by need of diversion with all the political symbolism (giving in to the advise of the Russian side to divert from much heated issue of Katyn in bilateral relations), would asked the pilots to do "the best they can", and the pilots attempted exactly that...

User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2026 posts, RR: 4
Reply 110, posted (4 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 106):
and with the Polish President onboard I do not think they would be pushing the limits.

I don't know if this is true, but it is said that, after the instruction to divert, the pilots answered that Kaczynski has insisted: "The Polish president lands where HE wants!"



Wer wenig weiss muss vieles glauben
User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 111, posted (4 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 106):
I do not know if this is the type of approach they were conducting, I would just keep an open mind on other possibilities. As you said it would be %u201Cirresponsible to land in the fog visually%u201D, and with the Polish President onboard I do not think they would be pushing the limits.
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 102):
Quoting JoKeR (Reply 44):
Serbian TV as well as the BBC confirm that the aircraft was instructed to divert to Moscow due to poor visibility but that the pilot elected to go ahead and attempt to land.

If this is the case, it was obviously a tragic mistake. I am deeply saddened for the people of Poland, and I send my deepest condolences. Damn, I wish we could turn back the hands of time.

Just read that in 2008 there was an incident when an Polish Air Force pilot refused to land in Tbilisi, Georgia due to safety concerns and diverted, the president was then driven by car to Tbilisi. Kaczynski then had the PIC court martialled on charges of insubordination. He was reportedly finally cleared, but I could imagine that story had influenced the pilot's descision to land by all means in Smolensk. Guess no officer likes the prospect of being charged by a court martial...



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 112, posted (4 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Old aircraft are only a problem if badly maintained and badly flown. Conversely, a determined flight crew can crash a brand new FBW airliner.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?

The Captain.

Quoting ukair (Reply 91):
If conditions were below minimums why did it try to land? I'm afraid this is looking like pilot error.

A bit soon for such a conclusion.

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 93):
What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere. Can he refuse to do this? I am not sure if this law applies always and in all countries.

As mentioned, of course he can and should refuse.

Quoting WROORD (Reply 100):
Some media are reporting that due to bad weather the plan must have hit the trees and burst into a fireball.

Media oversimplifies as usual. "Bad weather" is a problem, not a cause. What I mean is that with modern forecasting, bad (enough) weather should engender a course of action from controllers and flight crew allowing the aircraft to avoid the consequences of the weather conditions.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 113, posted (4 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting kubus (Reply 101):
The TU154M had 5004 hours and 1823 landings. Went through D-Check (major tear down) in Dec'09 and since had 50 landing and 124 hours. It was certified for another 25 years of service.

That's a fine plane that I would fly on any day. Well maintained, low cycles, passed D-Check and had a nice time after it confirming everything was okay. I doubt again the plane was at fault.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 107):
It is fitted with VIP interior and secure communication link equipment, along with upgraded avionics.

Exactly what I expected regarding avionics, probably very up to date with CATII/III landing capability, the only question remains if it had the GPWS - would be nice to know if anyone has any idea.

Quoting uzzzer (Reply 109):
Russian authorities have stated that the pilots were advised to divert either to Moscow or to Minsk

If this really came from the official source then we must doubt the captain. If you are advised the weather is so bad you should better divert, you better listen to it despite what anyone else on board says, even if it's the president himself.

I was in Poland last september for the Eurobasket and I really enjoyed Warsaw, Katowice and especially Lodz. I'm really saddened by this news and I offer my sincere condolences to the Polish people. I cannot imagine what a tragedy this would be for any country, to be "decapitated" in a single moment with so many fine people gone. I'm laso most saddened about president's children (if he had any) as to suddenly become an orphan is really a tragic thing.



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlinecysafan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 114, posted (4 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 9):
It was a Tu 154M like this:

View Large View Medium

Photo © Rafael Nunes



The President of Poland with his wife and many officials on board. RIP

This is exactly a same aircraft that crashed... Polish Air Force VIP fleet consists of just ONE Tupolev-154M...


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 115, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

What a shock and a tragedy for Poland. RIP.

User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7928 posts, RR: 5
Reply 116, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Has anyone mentioned just what was the level of visibility at Smolensk airport? Without ICAO Catagory II and III ILS at that airport, landing in fog would have been downright dangerous, to say the least.

User currently offlinebraynfeeble From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I'm sorry to hear about this tragedy.

WYRAZY SZCZEREGO ŻALU I WSPÓŁCZUCIA Z POWODU ŚMIERCI KACZYNSKI.



♥☆•*¨*•.¸¸¸.•*¨* •☆•*¨* je voudrais voler / comme un oiseau d'aile d'aile ♥☆•*¨*•.¸¸¸.•*¨* •☆•*¨*
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 118, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting kubus (Reply 101):
The TU154M had 5004 hours and 1823 landings.

Interesting to find out how new the jet actually was. Most commercially operated aircraft will reach 1800 cycles in a year or two.

This crash reminds of another Polish AF crash just two years ago, when crew errors led to the crash of the C-295 transport just a kilometer short of the runway in bad weather, with 20 killed.

I cannot imagine what the Polish people are going through. Kaczynski was a strong and charismatic leader and a dedicated anti-communist. The sickening irony of this happening near Katyn is simply awful.


User currently offlinecysafan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 119, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

You all should know that the Tupolev-154 got a bad reputation of huge number of tragedies by non-pilot error... They are beautiful to look at and they are deadlier than the earlier version of the DC-10 so this crash was no surprising... Polish AF kept this Soviet built aircraft because the state just run out of funds to buy a new VIP jet... Once and for all let 's bow low to commerate this sad tragedy!!  

User currently offlineipodguy7 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

My prayers go out to Poland in this time of unimaginable pain. God Bless Poland!


God Bless America
User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

It is not the civil airport of Smolensk.
It's a big military base with dozens of IL-76.

Some time ago military allowed to land there.
But they raised the issue that military and civil airplanes avionics and procedures are different.
Upgrade for complete civil aviation use was not completed.

That's what a Russian military expert said.


User currently offlinecysafan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 122, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

If you all wanted to know why this plane has crashed... You should see this video... A huge number of problems on the list for Polish Air Force Plane 101..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGz6y4qmyws&feature=channel
Hope it helps!!

[Edited 2010-04-10 12:06:03 by srbmod]

User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3378 posts, RR: 3
Reply 123, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting acabgd (Reply 113):
Exactly what I expected regarding avionics, probably very up to date with CATII/III landing capability, the only question remains if it had the GPWS - would be nice to know if anyone has any idea.

In landing configuration GPWS would probably not have gone off



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineCodyKDiamond From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 537 posts, RR: 1
Reply 124, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

My condolences to all aboard, their families, and their friends. This is a terrible loss and a major tragedy.

User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 125, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting cysafan (Reply 119):
You all should know that the Tupolev-154 got a bad reputation of huge number of tragedies by non-pilot error... They are beautiful to look at and they are deadlier than the earlier version of the DC-10 so this crash was no surprising... Polish AF kept this Soviet built aircraft because the state just run out of funds to buy a new VIP jet... Once and for all let 's bow low to commerate this sad tragedy!!

I think you're confusing it with some other aircraft type.

The Tu-154 has a rather good safety record among airliners of it's generation. When comparing the number of aircraft lost to the number of aircraft manufactured, the -154 ranks quite high, being beaten by only a few types.

As with most other aircraft types, the majority of the crashes can be attributed to human error. A fair share of Tu-154's have been brought down by missiles (at least 3), terrorist bombs (1) and mid-air collisions (at least 3), as well.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 126, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting cysafan (Reply 114):
Polish Air Force VIP fleet consists of just ONE Tupolev-154M...

Actually it consists of two Tu-154M number 101 (that crashed) and 102.


User currently offlineMacsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 127, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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I just saw the news reports of this tragic accident. Seeing as the aircraft was on the way to a ceremony of rememberance for the 70th anniversary of the deaths of Polish officers in the Katyn Forest, I suspect both the President and the officers aboard the aircraft were in a rush to get there. If they departed almost an hour late, as was suggested above, diversion would have made them even later as well.

Mistakes in judgment, caused by rushing to arrive, can bring down any aircraft without regard to age or origin. Let this serve as yet another reminder to us that, as is so often said, this is an activity that is very unforgiving of carelessness and that when we are in that left seat, we must be supremely careful.

May all aboard Rest in Peace along with all of those whose deaths they were seeking to remember. At this tragic time, more than ever, may God, in whatever form He or She may take, bless Poland and the Polish people.



Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
User currently offlinecysafan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 128, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 125):

I think you're confusing it with some other aircraft type.

The Tu-154 has a rather good safety record among airliners of it's generation. When comparing the number of aircraft lost to the number of aircraft manufactured, the -154 ranks quite high, being beaten by only a few types.

As with most other aircraft types, the majority of the crashes can be attributed to human error. A fair share of Tu-154's have been brought down by missiles (at least 3), terrorist bombs (1) and mid-air collisions (at least 3), as well.

No.. I am not. My grandfather almost got killed when a Tupolev 154 of CAAC lost engine thrust so sudden but it managed to return back to the airport...


User currently offlinePillowTester From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting cysafan (Reply 122):
If you all wanted to know why this plane has crashed... You should see this video...

All the information we have so far points to the probability of pilot error and not the aircraft itself.



...said Dan jubilantly.
User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Since 1972 about 1,000 frames produced. 66 lost for various reasons.
It's about the same proportion compared to B-727 or DC-9/MD-80 or any other aircraft of the 70ies.

It's not a TU-154 thread. So we'd better concentrate on available information about this tragic crash.


User currently offlinebillreid From Netherlands, joined Jun 2006, 967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 131, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Dutch press reporting that the acft did 4 attempts at landing. yes 4 missed landings due to very poor visibility problems.

ATC had ordered the acft to divert, but the President told the pilot to keep on trying. Dutch press is saying the Polish rules where the President can overrule the Pilot will now be up for re-evaluation.



Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 132, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

According to this article,

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/10/poland.plane/

The Tu-154M in this crash received a major overhaul (including all engines) in December 2009.

This must have been a relatively pristine aircraft. Poland has some resources now. It looks like they had a good aircraft for their president.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3238 posts, RR: 17
Reply 133, posted (4 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting OV735 (Reply 125):
The Tu-154 has a rather good safety record among airliners of it's generation

Not really. I remember back in early 70's Egyptair aquirred few of those planes, pilots were not happy with them so TU sent there chief pilot to show that Egyptian pilots do noy know how to fly them, well he crashed short of CAI killing himself and few Egyptian pilots. Egyptair asked TU to take back there planes they refused, they sat there for over a year till a diplomatic solution was found. Egyptair never bought Russian planes since then.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19740710-1

Another time i was flying a leased TU154 BEY-CAI the plane was not very full so ground crew started loadind sand bags and secure them on the seats for balance. I was not happy on that flight.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 7
Reply 134, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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My condolences to all the Polish members of A.net and the citizens of Poland.

Has anyone when was built this airframe? Is very strange to see nowadays a Tupolev TU154 flying in Europe and more to see it as a presidential aircraft.

Regards,

Gerard



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineMedAv From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The Polish quotes in some of the media articles seem to be blaming the plane, bemoaning how they should've replace the fleet. It's obviously early to say what specifically happened, but this seems more like a bravado, landing past minimums crash than anything else. Regardless, RIP for all the victims, and I hope the Polish people are able to get a good set of people to replace their lost leadership.

User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 413 posts, RR: 3
Reply 136, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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I find the comments regarding the pilot having the final word on landing rather naive.

This was not an airline captain. This was an air force plane. The pilot was probably only a Major.

With all those Brass and politicians on board, it is certain he was ordered to get it down.

The evidence is four attempts to land in visibility below minimum.

Of course, the pilot knew it was dangerous and foolhardy, but he had his military career to consider.

BA84


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 137, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting cysafan (Reply 128):
No.. I am not. My grandfather almost got killed when a Tupolev 154 of CAAC lost engine thrust so sudden but it managed to return back to the airport...

I'm happy for your grandfather and that he got out of the trouble, but with all due respect, you cannot call an aircraft type unsafe based on just one incident. In-flight engine failures happen to all types of aircraft, from the DC-3 to the 777.

As it has been said before, in this case, evidence seems to point to pilot error, at least in this case.

Quoting Macsog6 (Reply 127):
Seeing as the aircraft was on the way to a ceremony of rememberance for the 70th anniversary of the deaths of Polish officers in the Katyn Forest, I suspect both the President and the officers aboard the aircraft were in a rush to get there. If they departed almost an hour late, as was suggested above, diversion would have made them even later as well.
Quoting billreid (Reply 131):
ATC had ordered the acft to divert, but the President told the pilot to keep on trying. Dutch press is saying the Polish rules where the President can overrule the Pilot will now be up for re-evaluation.

Does the Dutch press have it as a fact that the President called for the crew to press on, even if the captain deemed it unsafe? I agree that it does call for some speculation, especially in light of the 2008 Georgian thing, but nevertheless, how can they be so sure? Also, is it really a rule in Polish AF that the President can overrule the PIC's decisions? Will the President then also assume responsibility for the aircraft?


User currently offlineBolek From Czech Republic, joined Apr 2010, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Tragic day for Poland indeed. My condolences go to that fine country.

Some Czech experts have claimed that one possible explanation could be 'unit confusion'. If I understood correctly, Russia and Belarus generally give altitude in metric units, whereas the rest of the world uses classic feet figures. The pilot could have used the map with values in meters and therefore could have been flying much lower altitude than expected. Has anybody some insight into this?


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 139, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 133):
Not really. I remember back in early 70's Egyptair aquirred few of those planes, pilots were not happy with them so TU sent there chief pilot to show that Egyptian pilots do noy know how to fly them, well he crashed short of CAI killing himself and few Egyptian pilots. Egyptair asked TU to take back there planes they refused, they sat there for over a year till a diplomatic solution was found. Egyptair never bought Russian planes since then.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...710-1

Again, you can't judge a plane's safety record just by one incident. I have no information regarding the cause of the Egypt Air crash, and it might indeed have been mechanical. Still, overall statistics show that the vast majority of fatal hull-losses of the -154 are caused by crew error.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 133):
Another time i was flying a leased TU154 BEY-CAI the plane was not very full so ground crew started loadind sand bags and secure them on the seats for balance. I was not happy on that flight.

Ballast bags are a fairly common thing on most types. Just this last week I was in a ERJ-135 that had 400kg of ballast in the cargo hold on both inbound and outbound flights, in addition to some 200kg of baggage. Normally ballast bags are loaded into the cargo hold, but who knows what the ground crew in Beirut were told to do on your flight.


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 140, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Bolek (Reply 138):
Tragic day for Poland indeed. My condolences go to that fine country.

Some Czech experts have claimed that one possible explanation could be 'unit confusion'. If I understood correctly, Russia and Belarus generally give altitude in metric units, whereas the rest of the world uses classic feet figures. The pilot could have used the map with values in meters and therefore could have been flying much lower altitude than expected. Has anybody some insight into this?

I strongly doubt that. Pilots, even air force ones, do a complete and thorough briefing before each flight, to familiarize themselves with the procedures and conditions of the destination and the alternates. I would also imagine that the Polish AF pilots have plenty of experience flying also on Russian airspace.

Furthermore, with the Tu-154 being a Soviet design, it has both modern (meters) and traditional (feet) altimeters.

As an interesting sidenote, even the Jeppesen approach charts I've seen for Poland, have lower altitudes in metres, despite Poland actually using the traditional measurement system.


User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Bolek (Reply 138):
The pilot could have used the map with values in meters and therefore could have been flying much lower altitude than expected. Has anybody some insight into this?

This is such a widely known fact that any half-educated private pilot will pay double attention to metric/feet conversion when flying over Russia. Not to mention the (hopefully) senior captain of this flight.

Furthermore, if there were previous 3 attempts to land, how can any metric confusion be the problem if you already flew the same approach three times?



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 142, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 118):
Interesting to find out how new the jet actually was.
Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 134):
Has anyone when was built this airframe?

Read this thread.

Quoting cysafan (Reply 119):
Polish AF kept this Soviet built aircraft because the state just run out of funds to buy a new VIP jet...

And your source is?



Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
User currently offlineferengi80 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 685 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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My heart goes out to all people affected by this tragic accident.

The people of Poland have lost a great man.

RIP Mr. President.



AF1981 LHR-CDG A380-800 10 July 2010 / AF1980 CDG-LHR A380-800 11 July 2010
User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 413 posts, RR: 3
Reply 144, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Further to my comment in Reply 136:

In civil aviation, the captain is omnipotent.

In military aviation, the pilot's command decisions are directly related to the Brass onboard.

In this case, the pilot would have been a bus driver.

BA84


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5597 posts, RR: 19
Reply 145, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

My deepest conolences to our Polish brothers. It's a tragic irony that Poland loses its political and especially military elite once again in the woods around Smolensk...
According to local news outlets, Czech and Polish flags shall be flown on the Prague Castle at half mast.


User currently offlineBW424 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Sep 2008, 1405 posts, RR: 1
Reply 146, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Very tragic day. My condolences to all the famalies of those that died, as well as all Polish posters on this forum.


It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 147, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting acabgd (Reply 140):
Please, stop such non-educated statements. Only someone who has absolutely no idea about aviation can make such statements. I hope I don't even have to explain why - but I'm still shocked to read such statements on an aviation site

   This fallacy comes up here so often that a couple of years ago I compiled a list of Tu-154 accidents and their primary causes. It was very difficult to find even one where the aircraft design and build were significant contributing factors.

They might be a pain or expensive to maintain (I don't know) but there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence that they're inherently unsafe.

Quoting cysafan (Reply 128):
My grandfather almost got killed when a Tupolev 154 of CAAC lost engine thrust so sudden but it managed to return back to the airport...

Maybe not much fun for a passenger on board but the loss of an engine on a multi-engined airliner doesn't very often end in disaster - a bit more sweating and cursing than usual, perhaps, but not disaster. They're designed and tested in the knowledge that an engine might fail.


User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4966 posts, RR: 18
Reply 148, posted (4 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

It's going to be the Ron Brown thing all over again.

User currently offlineSyeaphanR From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted (4 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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I'm curious...

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 121):
It is not the civil airport of Smolensk.
It's a big military base with dozens of IL-76.

Given the kind of base this was, didn't they have the ability to do an old-fashioned PAR "Talk-Down"? I would have thought it appropriate to all-weather usage of transports.

If such a facility were available, but not offered, it's gonna be a field-day for conspiracy theorists...


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 150, posted (4 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Back to the Aviation subject : It seems finally true that the crew did 3 attempt to land and crashed during the fourth one.
I doubt a "standard" crew of a "normal" commercial airline would have done that under the same circumstances of bad weather and thick fog ...

No doubt the Crew had some "pressure" from the President or its staff to land in Smolensk rather than Minsk or Moscow which would have disorganized all the comemoration ceremony planned.

[Edited 2010-04-10 12:04:42 by srbmod]

User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 413 posts, RR: 3
Reply 151, posted (4 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting wjcandee (Reply 149):
It's going to be the Ron Brown thing all over again.

Most members won't understand this reference.

BA84


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6094 posts, RR: 9
Reply 152, posted (4 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 80):
Poland is a great partner of the EU and in NATO.

This president (and his brother) was not really a great partner of the EU, to say the least. Of NATO and the US, sure.

I'm not saying I wished him anything bad.

Quoting cysafan (Reply 128):
No.. I am not. My grandfather almost got killed when a Tupolev 154 of CAAC lost engine thrust so sudden but it managed to return back to the airport...

All three engines lost thrust ?

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 134):
Has anyone when was built this airframe? Is very strange to see nowadays a Tupolev TU154 flying in Europe and more to see it as a presidential aircraft.

It is in the thread, 1989 or 1990, low cycles, low hours, and out of D-check in December.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineoneworld77 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 153, posted (4 years 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Re the reliability - below from the bbc.co.uk/news website (with fair use) is an interesting article;

Crash focusses attention on Tupolev-154


About 1,000 Tupolev-154s were built
The death of Polish President Lech Kaczynski in a plane crash is likely to raise questions about the 20-year-old Tupolev-154 he was travelling in.
The BBC's Adam Easton reports from Warsaw that there had been calls for Polish leaders to upgrade their planes.
And in late 2008 Mr Kaczynski had suffered a couple of scares. Problems with the aircraft's steering mechanism delayed his departure from Mongolia, forcing him to take a charter flight to Tokyo, and a week later the plane was caught up in turbulence flying to Seoul.
However, the aircraft had recently undergone a major overhaul and Aleksey Gusev, the head of the maintenance plant that carried out the work, told Polish TV that it should not have had technical problems.
"From the moment it entered service, the plane had had 5,004 flight hours and 1,823 landings, which for aircraft of this class is not a lot," he said.
"The plane was flying quite well and there were no complaints."
The overhaul was completed in December and included repairing the plane's three engines. The next major service was due in six years.
'Modernised'
The Tupolev-154 was for more than a quarter of a century the backbone of Russia's and the Soviet Union's air transport system.
It carried about half the number of all passengers flown by Russia's national carrier Aeroflot and its successors in that time, with that number peaking at 137 million per year in 1990.
About 1,000 were built, and some remain in service in Russia and countries that were once part of the Soviet bloc.

The Tu-154 is no longer in production
The aircraft entered service in 1972 and was "modernised" in 1986, with new engines and equipment to improve its fuel consumption and flight operations.
But as an indication of its ageing design, the Chinese government decided in 2001 to withdraw the Tu-154 from its airlines.
Aeroflot took the decision to phase them out more recently, saying their high fuel consumption made them uneconomic.
An expert on Russian aviation, Paul Duffy, assessed the safety record of the Tu-154 in 2004, for the BBC News website.
Of 28 lost in accidents up to that date - a figure about normal for the quantity, years of service and technology of the type, in his view - few had crashed because of technical failure, he said.
Unrelated problems
"The Tu-154 operates in regions with not very good air traffic control and navigation equipment, and in very difficult weather conditions," he said at the time.
Some of the accidents had little relation to the aircraft itself, he added.
For example, in 1982, an aircraft landing at Omsk in Russia in a heavy snowstorm hit six snowploughs that had not been told to leave the runway as the aircraft landed.
About five had been shot down by enemy or terrorist attacks in Lebanon, Georgia and Afghanistan during the civil wars in those countries.
In 2001, a Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea after being hit by a Ukrainian missile fired during exercises.
One landed safely in a field after its cargo of cigarettes caught fire but was completely burnt.
Another ran out of fuel five miles short of the runway when the state airline of an almost bankrupt country decided to carry less fuel from its base, where the price was high.
And Swiss air controllers accepted full responsibility for a mid-air collision between a Tu-154 and a cargo plane in July 2002.
The Tu-154 is now no longer in production.
BBC Moscow correspondent Richard Galpin says Russian airlines are not interested in newer Tupolevs because they are not comparable with Western planes.
Aeroflot is now buying the vast majority of its aircraft from Boeing and Airbus.

Full link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8612915.stm

As for the late, much respected, President, I found his views abhorrent, however, he reflected a certain part of crumbling, catholic, catatonic Polish life and, like all politicians, did not represent 100% of the views of the people of Poland.
Either way, may he and wife and all other SOB rest in peace.



Flown - EI;BA;RE;FR;WW;TW;TS;US;JP;JT;AT;QF;JQ;VB;NC;TR;D7;AA;IB;AF;SN;LX;SR;LH;AY;CX;CP;9K;9W;IX;AI;IC;EK;EY;GF;QR;BE;N
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 123):
In landing configuration GPWS would probably not have gone off

what???


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 155, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 60):
No.

In 1994 the President Juvenal Habvarimana of Rwanda and President Cyprian Ntayamira of Burundi were on board the same aircraft that crashed near Kigali Airport.

in 2004, President Boris Trajkovski of Macedonia died in a plane crash in Bosnia.

In 2008, Samora Machel, the Mozambican president died in crash of a Tupolev TU 134A-3, on its way home following the Lusaka Summit in Zambia.

Also Francisco Sá Carneiro, prime minister of Portugal was killed in a small aircraft crash back in 1980. OPO is named after him.


User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting BA84 (Reply 145):
In military aviation, the pilot's command decisions are directly related to the Brass onboard.

As sad as the tragedy is, this crash will help to prevent future crashes.

If it is really true that both Belarus and Russian ATC advised a diversion to Minsk or Moscow, and the pilot did not follow this advise due to receiving orders form higher ranking military officials or even from the President himself (the latter I personally doubt), then there will be a big change towards a even better crew resource management also in the military aviation.

No commercial plane would have tried 4 times to land in such a weather. It would have diverted after the first or second attempt, if not already before.

Another A.netter mentioned that this pilot may have feared consequences for his own career. Yes maybe. It wouldn't wonder a lot of us.

The crash remembers me somehow to the Teneriffe Disaster.

As I said at the beginning. 96 people lost their life. They may RIP and will never come back.

Let's hope military aviation all over the world will learn a lesson from this crash.

Regards

Tom



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlineMrSkyGuy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 157, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting hugoandres1984 (Reply 97):
does anybody have the approach plate of that airport Posible CFIT

I think that's going to be difficult given that it's a pure-military airfield. I just checked my Jeppesen charts and came up dry. I loaded up a nav database, and the closest airport I was able to even identify was Vitebsk in Belarus.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineFN1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 158, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 149):
It's going to be the Ron Brown thing all over again.

If I remember well, NATO planes have no blackbox, so it will not be very difficult to blame the pilots, what in some media allready is comming as a rumour.

My sincere condolences!



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlineirobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 159, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting cysafan (Reply 122):
If you all wanted to know why this plane has crashed... You should see this video... A huge number of problems on the list for Polish Air Force Plane 101..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGz6y4qmyws&feature=channel
Hope it helps!!

Did you watch this?? There was nothing in this report that indicated the aircraft was unfit for flight. All of the incidents were non-mechanical. This plane was in great condition after the recent overhaul.

People, please stop blaming the Tu-154 design. It makes about as much sense as blaming the 737 design for all its crashes. This was not a 1970s airliner with design flaws like the DC-10 (which had all its problems sorted out), this was a 1990 example of the final version of the 154. A very reliable aircraft. I would fly one tomorrow.

RIP to all the victims of this horrible tragedy.


User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 160, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 159):
If I remember well, NATO planes have no blackbox, so it will not be very difficult to blame the pilots, what in some media allready is comming as a rumour.

According to vaious sources, at least one of the two "black box" has been recovered :

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=115099
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=15011224&PageNum=0
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...found/story-e6frfku0-1225852232993


User currently offlineFN1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 161, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 161):
According to vaious sources, at least one of the two "black box" has been recovered :

Thank you for correcting. I hope the truth will come out soon!



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 903 posts, RR: 3
Reply 162, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FN1001 (Reply 159):
If I remember well, NATO planes have no blackbox, so it will not be very difficult to blame the pilots, what in some media allready is comming as a rumour.

The Tu-154 is equipped both with a cockpit voice recorder and a flight data recorder. I hope data can be extracted from both, so that the cause (not the blame) can be determined and such accidents can be avoided in the future.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 157):
Let's hope military aviation all over the world will learn a lesson from this crash.

 checkmark  Indeed, military aviation is much more loosely regulated than civilian, yet, as we witnessed in this case, it may result in disasters that directly affect civilian life in every aspect.

[Edited 2010-04-10 13:03:13]

User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 163, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 161):
According to vaious sources, at least one of the two "black box" has been recovered :

# Both blackboxes have been recovered
# The body of the President has been found and identified
# Polish and Russian Prime Ministers Tusk and Putin met on the scene of the crash
# Focus is on pilot error, under pressure to land in difficult weather conditions

All per polish TVN which has been the most reliable in their broadcast so far.

[Edited 2010-04-10 13:03:30]

User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3238 posts, RR: 17
Reply 164, posted (4 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting OV735 (Reply 139):
Again, you can't judge a plane's safety record just by one incident.

I was just saying facts. Was not trying to put down the TU154



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8625 posts, RR: 15
Reply 165, posted (4 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

May all those who died RIP. I hope this not destroy the Tu154's reputation. She is a very pretty a/c.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18670 posts, RR: 58
Reply 166, posted (4 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting OV735 (Reply 163):
The Tu-154 is equipped both with a cockpit voice recorder and a flight data recorder. I hope data can be extracted from both, so that the cause (not the blame) can be determined and such accidents can be avoided in the future.

CNN is reporting that both of these devices have been found and that authorities have already started examining their contents.


User currently offline3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 167, posted (4 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Looking at what is left of the plane it seems the impact was very violent. There was not much fire, as far as I understand, but the remains are surprisingly crushed. The "main" image of tail section without fin and with engines torn off makes me think that the fuselage has rolled, breaking off everything sticking out. After all tail section of T-tail, rear-engined plane is especially hard. So it would suggest that the plane did not just fall too early. Additionaly the woods where the crash happened are quite weak, much weaker than those on which famous A320 landed once - and then almost everyone survived, IIRC. Had the Tupolev just touched down in the forest most likely nothing would happen to people.

So, my guess is that something happened during go-around (and some of reports indeed say something like this, after conversion from media language to more technical one), I bet the wing hit the ground and it hit harder than just catch some branches. The aircraft would have cartwheeled then and start to roll on the ground. Why were they so low and so non-wings-level? My guess would be incorect timing of go-around procedure being made 4th time. Too early/too rapid nose up leading to stall, or too early turn...

Knowing my president I find it very likely that the pilots were more or less directly pressed to land no matter what. Indeed, there was a case of arguing with (and trying to avenge on) pilot not wanting to land on Georgian airport possibly under fire. Well, the president is a victim of our culture of bravety without thinking about consequences.

In similar circumstances our Air Force lost a CASA two years ago, transporting a lot of high officers returning, ironically, from flight safety conference. Rumors about pilots being forced to land in bad conditions are, as far as I remember, not completly clarified.

Of course, a flight with most important persons in the state should at first not be directed to airport without basic (for now) navigation aids. It should not be scheduled so late that they had no time buffer for any delay - they had only an hour or two to the mass in the Katyn wood. It should not be also packed with so many officials, in particular not with the whole military staff. What was the chief of National Bank doing there anyway... well, it's not a place for discussing absurdity of our political life.

In general, the crash is probably so trivial that it's particularily shocking. It's almost like the president's limousine crashed in the tree on slippery road. One would thing that when president dies, it's somehow more picturesque. Well, it's not.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2314 posts, RR: 21
Reply 168, posted (4 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 93):
I am not sure if this is always the case.

This is always the case.

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 93):
What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere. Can he refuse to do this? I am not sure if this law applies always and in all countries.

Yes. The PIC can refuse this and definitely should if he/she thinks it is not safe to do whatever they are asked to do.

[Edited 2010-04-10 14:07:18]

User currently offline3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 169, posted (4 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 169):
Yes. The PIC can refuse this and definitely should if he/she thinks it is not safe to do whatever they are asked to do.

"What? You can't land? And you call yourself a soldier? Chicken!"


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 170, posted (4 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 169):
The PIC can refuse this and definitely should if he/she thinks it is not safe to do whatever they are asked to do.

A civilian PIC follows procedure and can refuse to land. A military one follows orders.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 171, posted (4 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 171):

A civilian PIC follows procedure and can refuse to land. A military one follows orders.

It's a slightly hard legal question. You would have to be insane to order the pilot to land unsafely. Even if you could, that's the last thing you would want to do.

This event will change the thinking of some VIPs. Presidents will ask themselves, do I want to end up like the Polish president? It is the other kind of "pilot skill." That of judgement and preserving of life, not just landing no matter what.


User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2199 posts, RR: 7
Reply 172, posted (4 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 170):
"What? You can't land? And you call yourself a soldier? Chicken!"

In this case, I suggest the next Polish president use an airline (charter) rather than the Air Force. If Kaczynski would've done that, he would've likely been alive.

I guess a good "soldier" obeys all orders, including ones that lead to his president's death.

RIP to all. Hope we can all learn something from this.


User currently offlinesovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2516 posts, RR: 17
Reply 173, posted (4 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting OV735 (Reply 46):
I figure an ILS is also bit too much to be expected.

All Russian airbases have RSBN which as far as I know can be used to land in bad weather. Correct me if I'm wrong. The problem however is that Tu-154s in general do not have RSBN as it is a military system. Now since this Tu-154 started out its life as a military aircraft it might have been custom fitted with RSBN so it can land at the Polish airbases as well. I tried to find information but couldn't.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 84):
Without jumping to conclusions it seems strange that such a flight with government officials is not conducted with more modern equipment.

The plane is modern. It's not old, and it has likely received a lot of upgrades.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2314 posts, RR: 21
Reply 174, posted (4 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 171):
A military one follows orders.

No I don't believe so. Not if it compromises safety for everyone on board and people on the ground.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 172):
You would have to be insane to order the pilot to land unsafely

Exactly.

As said by others - as a civilian PIC, no one can tell you what to do if you believe it compromises safety, even if you'd normally be breaking the law, you're not if it is in the name of safety.


[Edited 2010-04-10 14:47:43]

User currently offline3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 275 posts, RR: 0
Reply 175, posted (4 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 173):
I guess a good "soldier" obeys all orders, including ones that lead to his president's death.

The point is it'd be probably easier to reject clear order than stand general pressure "you need to land because they already ring the bells in the church".


User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2199 posts, RR: 7
Reply 176, posted (4 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 176):
The point is it'd be probably easier to reject clear order than stand general pressure "you need to land because they already ring the bells in the church"

Is it? I don't know, I've never been in the military and generally dislike all "orders", so I suppose this is right for someone like me, but for an AF pilot, I don't know...

However, if you're given an order by someone who doesn't know how aircraft and weather go together, it's indicated to take initiative, like happened in Georgia. That takes real courage.


User currently offlinelemang From Mexico, joined Oct 2004, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 177, posted (4 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

W polskiej telewizji powiedzieli (oko%u0142o 12:00), %u017Ce nie wynosi%u0142a 4 aproaches, ale samolot dokonane 4 ko%u0142a na lotnisku przed (jedyna)
My condolences to the Polish village



Lemang