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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk (Part 2)  
User currently offlineEI787 From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1513 posts, RR: 21
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Continued from here: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk (by david_itl Apr 10 2010 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2915 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The NYT in this article comes with some brilliant analysis:

Quote:
One possibility, he said, was that the pilot was not aware that the plane, the TU-154, loses altitude faster than usual when it is descending at more than 20 feet per second.

More seriously, the head of MAK has said that the CVR read out does not show any pressure being put on the pilots. And as said earlier, there seems to have been only one landing attempt..



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2956 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I feel sorry for the family and friends of the TU-154 captain. Looks like the government and air force will try to place the entire blame for this tragedy on him by claiming pilot error.


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 77
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting rafaelyyz (Reply 3):

As I said, they still have a long way to go. You just gave another proof.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineacabgd From Serbia, joined Jul 2005, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 309):
And, Yes, the wreckage was smack on the extended runway centerline.

On April 15th the Russian MAK released first results of the investigation and preliminary analysis of both flight data and cockpit voice recorder today saying, that the airplane was attempting its first approach when it impacted trees 1050 meters short of the runway threshold and about 40 to 45 meters to the left of the extended runway centerline.

Gotcha again!  



CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting acabgd (Reply 5):
Gotcha again!

96 people are dead and a whole nation is in mourning. This isn't a contest.

So facts from MAK so far:

1. This was the first approach, I guess "repeated warnings" were issued during the discussion between pilots and controlles when the plane was still in the holding pattern.

2. There was no confirmed pressure from the President or anyone in the cabin on the cockpit crew.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  


User currently offlinerafaelyyz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 4):
As I said, they still have a long way to go. You just gave another proof.

It was a strange wording to suggest that the recent ceremony attended jointly marked an end to WW2 for some. Katyn isn't only about WW2. Katyn is also about the time up until 1989, and a huge swath of history even before WW2. To suggest that anything regarding this can be "ended" in a moment is too simplistic. Even the deceased president's speech which was supposed to be given on that saturday, reminded us that while we are on the road toward healing this wound, there remains a lot to be done.

I propose we stick to aviation.


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 77
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting rafaelyyz (Reply 7):
I propose we stick to aviation.

Agreed. We can't live inthe past for ever. It's unhealthy.
Picked up this photo :
http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/101-196ab6.jpg
showing that the big piece torn from the airplane was indeed the tip of the left wing.
Now we have confirmed that the reason the airplane veered to the left and - apparently - ended up upside down was a left roll which ended with the airplane impacting the ground inverted.
On Pprune, some have plotted the last flightpath on a terrain profile and found out that , at the first tree impact, they were below the airfield and their subsequent trajectory was a 5% climb, insufficient to clear all obstacles.
That 5% value is puzzling : way below the gradient we would expect in a go-around, the final approach geometry it would lead to makes a landing a lot more difficult than normal...even if they were well above stall speed...



Contrail designer
User currently offline3MilesToWRO From Poland, joined Mar 2006, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
Agreed. We can't live inthe past for ever. It's unhealthy.

Yeah. As we can see one can even end in an air crash. As a matter of fact all this trip was just living in the past and making politics of things that should be left to historians.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
On Pprune, some have plotted the last flightpath on a terrain profile and found out that , at the first tree impact, they were below the airfield and their subsequent trajectory was a 5% climb, insufficient to clear all obstacles.
That 5% value is puzzling : way below the gradient we would expect in a go-around, the final approach geometry it would lead to makes a landing a lot more difficult than normal...even if they were well above stall speed...

There's also a set of images (I can't find the link now) showing that first trees are cut lower than some of the next. And it seems the first impact was not antenna, but a birch tree. Had they cleared one really huge pine everything would be probably OK, but they did not.
So, would it be ice?


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting 3MilesToWRO (Reply 9):
So, would it be ice?

I don't think so and to me, all point toward human factors :
- A crew under heavy stress, both on the political importance of landing at Smolensk and on time, and an approach ( whether GCA or 2NDBs ) that was certainly not suited to the visibility conditions.
- An approach-to-land taken to its absolute possibilities - and beyond,
- all with an incomplete knowledge of the airfield ( in terms of relief, aspect...)
The challenge was huge : with a visibility of 400m, for any chance to land safely (considering that their approach speed wass in the vicinity of 280 km/h i.e. around 80m/s), they just had five seconds) to identify the runway , at a height of some 35 m ; any more would have been an overhigh flare and a longer landing distance, any lower was a recipe for hitting obstacles.
It is my opinion that they presumed too much.



Contrail designer
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
, at the first tree impact, they were below the airfield

That's what I said three days ago.

Google Earth shows the terrain east of the runway is below field elevation, in some places near the projected impact point close to 100 feet below the runway threshold elevation. So we knew that inorder for the plane to make impact in that area, it had to be more than just low, but severely low.

I would be interested in the descent rate in the five km before impact.

Why did they sink so low?


User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

So the airfield was elevated. That would explain odd altimeter readings.

It's quite strange, though, that the Polish investigator was talking about crazy speed of 150-180 m/s.

From Pihero's last post I can only assume that it was very dangerous approach.
Which can not be justified by no means IMHO.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I'm not sure elevated is the right term.

The airport sits on a hill north of the city, close to 300 feet above the elevation of the river that runs through the city.

The terrain slopes away and down from the runway to both the east and the west. While it is lower than the airport, it would not make the airport stand out like an aircraft carrier. Probably something like the approach to KCOS or KSEA from the south

Certainly not as bad as LAS. There Rwy 25L rises 109 feet from the east to west ends, or Rwy 25R rises 148 feet. The off airport terrain rises 50 feet in the last KM, 100 feet in the last mile.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Today Poland holds the official public ceremony for the crash victims.
The funeral will be held on Sunday.

See more about it here on BBC News

Tens of thousands of people are taking part in a memorial service in the Polish capital for the 96 victims of last weekend's plane crash.
Polish President Lech Kaczynski and key public figures, including the heads of the armed forces were among the dead.
Sirens sounded across the country to signal the start of the service.
As well as speeches from politicians, including Prime Minister Donald Tusk, Polish bishops are celebrating a solemn Mass service.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8626683.stm

Requiescat In Pace crash victims.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 77
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Found this extract from a russian forum, with a Google translation, but at least it is quite understandable.
The reconstructing work done by this poster is quite astonishing.
In my opinion, he managed to catch the gist of the airplane trajectory in its final moments.
Here it is
There are three pages of that post.
The remaining question now would be about how they were to let themselves into that situation.
I heard that the prelim report is ready to be published.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The burial Mass is live on Polish TV on the Internet for those who want to watch it.

Several links on this page

http://delicast.com/tv/Poland/Religia_TV

Religia TV has an excellent quality live cast. This is so extremely sad... it brings tears...

At this moment I hear "Ave Verum Corpus" sung by the cathedral choir with a full orchestra.

Polish President and First Lady will be buried in the Cracow cathedral.

RIP TU154 victims.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
The reconstructing work done by this poster is quite astonishing.

Thanks for the link - it really is amazing detective work! Do you have any ideas on why an aircraft would roll over like that? I suppose with the prelim report coming out soon we'll know the chain of events.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3071 posts, RR: 37
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):

Quite a remarkable reconstruction from someone who acknowledges he has no particular knowledge of aviation.

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
Do you have any ideas on why an aircraft would roll over like that?

Losing a chunk of wing along with the aileron will do it - asymetrical lift and loss of roll control.

The real question, as pihero noted, is

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
how they were to let themselves into that situation



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The detailed analysis from Smolensk recreates a horrible picture.
But it can't - obviously - answer the main question: how could have possibly the aircraft found itself so amazigly low?
All alarms should have kept warning the crew.
Radio altimeter was supposed to show those amaizing numbers - 3 meter, 5 meter of altitude.

Reading made me depressed.


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 77
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting pylon101 (Reply 18):
The detailed analysis from Smolensk recreates a horrible picture.

Facts have that sort of habit, in aircraft accidents.

There are quite a lot of discussion on this one : people talking about instrument approaches procedures in Russia, heirloom from the soviet era :
There are three possibilities on the procedure they were shooting :

1/- A GCA approach, which would confirm the initial Russian controller who said that " they stopped acknowledging my messages and they lost altitude very quickly..." required vis is 1000 m.

2/- A very unusual procedure - apparently quite common in the ex-soviet world - in which, the pilots would use two NDBs for the alignment on centerline, while being talked down by a ground operator. I have never heard of that method until to-day, and it seems to me quite dangerous as the pilot has to deal with two mental pictures - one from his instruments on a visual cue, another from a needed "materialisation" of some height orders from the ground (aural / visual cues ). Required vis is 1200 m.

3/- A dual NDB approach. The problem with this letdown is the absence of a glide slope information ; everything is done by stopwatch, down to an MDH of some 200m / 600 ft.
Contrarily to what some may think, the lateral precision of that approach is very good (the deviation of some 45 m at 1500 m from the threshold amount to a precision of less than 2° (and Yes, on that sort of approach, that's "smack on the centerline" ! )

Another image I would have liked to see is a cockpit view of that approach, especially at the point where they started that strange "dive"...was there a visual clue that made them think they were closer to the runway ( and too high, of course ) ?

What makes this subject even more puzzling is that the airfield was in all intents and purposes closed, and the GCA would only have been a "battlefield apparatus" with very little in terms of set procedures for a given airstrip. It could only work on a fixed-for-all type of utilization.

All the above to just say that nothing could have therefore allowed them to even initiate an approach with publicly reported visibilities below 1000 meters.

The Poles have said that they will publish the prelim on Thursday.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):

A sobering picture. Kudos to the author of that for analyzing the topography around Smolensk-North airbase. Seems like he answered the "how" as he put it. The why though remains to be seen.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 18):
All alarms should have kept warning the crew.

Would alarms go off when the Tu-154M is in landing configuration? This is an honest question as I don't know about warning systems on the Tu-154M. Since this wasn't an ILS approach, I'm certain "glideslope" was not uttered by the plane.

I noticed the cockpit on this aircraft is different from the "stock" Tu-154M cockpits. Who did the cockpit mod, and what specifically was modified? Was this a custom job for the Polish Air Force? Anyone know?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
The Poles have said that they will publish the prelim on Thursday.

I will certainly be interested in reading it.

If I haven't said so already, may all who perished RIP.  

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I just dug up an article from USAToday.

The Polish Tu-154M was equipped with TAWS.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...04-13-fog-plane-crash-poland_N.htm

Excerpts

Device spurs questions in Polish crash By Alan Levin, USA TODAY


The Polish jet that crashed short of a runway in fog, killing that nation's president and other top leaders, was equipped with a safety device that warns pilots when they get too close to the ground, the device's manufacturer said Tuesday.

...

The Russian-built Tupolev TU-154 had been equipped with a Terrain Awareness and Warning System (TAWS) made by Universal Avionics Systems of Tucson, said company spokesman John Hamby. He said the company could not discuss the investigation into the crash or other details.

...

Bill Voss, president of the non-profit Flight Safety Foundation, said that the crash may highlight a weakness in the TAWS. Maps of the U.S. and other developed nations are highly accurate, but gaps exist in the maps for countries such as Russia and in the developing world, Voss said.

...





View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michal Kaczmarek (Wlkp_Spotters)



Why did this plane descend so low????

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  


User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

45 meters left off centerline would not be that dramatic - they might have enough time to align. Or go around.

Doesn't TAWS based on radio altimeter data?
Besides standard TU-154M has aureal warning, like " low terrain, low terrain".

All those could be turned off not to distract attention, though.

Anyway the approach should have been based on the altitude of the airfield.

Yes, will be waiting for the report.


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 77
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
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Quoting pylon101 (Reply 22):
45 meters left off centerline would not be that dramatic - they might have enough time to align. Or go around.

It's nothing. Just consider how many non-precision approaches are offset by some degrees.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 22):

Isn't TAWS based on radio altimeter data?

Yes, but that's the "dumb" part of it : In normal utilization, especially outside some countries which haven't yet adhered to the WGS 84 - or equivalent - model, the system, coupled with the GPS navigation accuracy , generates a terrain model around the aircraft position and warns of potential CFITs.
More on the Tu-154 on-board system on this brochure :Universal TAWS

The problem is that Russia hasn't - for political and financial reasons, I guess - gone to the WGS 84 standard, therefore, the equipment is only equal to an older generation GPWS, i.e based soleley on radio-altimeter and aircraft configuration data.

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 22):
Besides standard TU-154M has aureal warning, like " low terrain, low terrain".

I'm afraid that, considering their landing configuration, the only warning they could have heard were either "SINK RATE !" or "PULL UP !", which, by the way could also explain the ascending trajectory they showed ( the combined airplane descent rate AND the rising terrain could have generated such warning )

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 22):
Anyway the approach should have been based on the altitude of the airfield.

It doesn't really matter : A QNH setting gives you the altitude of your aircraft and , as all approach and en-route charts are based on terrain / feature alitudes, the transition is easy.
On the other hand, a QFE setting, giving the pilot the height relative to the airfield reference point allows - IMO - a better SA of one's descent profile. After all, having an altimeter reading "zero" upon landing makes quite a lot of sense, doesn't it ? So whatever the setting they chose - and I am quite certain that it was QFE as it is standard procedure in Russia, especially using some form of a descent-to-land profile -, provided the altimeters have correctly been set and crosschecked, it won't make any difference.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineAVLNative From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 19):
The Poles have said that they will publish the prelim on Thursday.

Has anyone seen any evidence that this occurred?


25 Post contains links SyeaphanR : There's this: http://www.thenews.pl/international/...-led-to-smolensk-catastrophe-.html But no sign of the prelim as such...Yet.
26 3MilesToWRO : So far nothing new, only a little tide of pointless "news" saying nothing, but keeping the media business running. This actually includes colonel Piet
27 Pihero : Indeed he did ! The article is just a lot of assembled garbage and uneducated twaddle if not outright false technical falsities (?). Witness the TAWS
28 pylon101 : Usually MAK issues complete and objective reports. Take, for example, A-310 crash in Irkutsk. Or Perm's B-735 crash. From the very beginning I mention
29 Aesma : Maybe the Poles made a copy of the recordings to be safe but only the Russians are qualified to analyze the data ?
30 Post contains images Boeing4ever : According to media information from last week, one of the black boxes was sent to Poland. The source indicated three total recorders. Can anyone veri
31 Aesma : I don't really agree with the argument that he didn't pressure them. Sure, he didn't go to the cockpit, but that doesn't mean there wasn't pressure. I
32 Pihero : Yes, but this accident is heavily politically charged and MAK is very probably having to deal with pressures far outside their "normal" dealings ; pl
33 MD11Engineer : Also don´t forget the memories of General Sikorsky, the leader of the WW2 exile Polish Army in the UK. His plane, a B-24, crashed under misterious ci
34 Post contains links AVLNative : From: http://www.thenews.pl/press/?id=130342 Search for cause of Smolensk disaster continues The location of beacons at the military airfield in Smole
35 Post contains links L410Turbolet : Honestly, I don't k. now what to think about this video. Given the poor resolution one can "see" just about anything and therefore everything is open
36 AVLNative : Reading through all the comments, the last one in English seems to debunk the video as a scam.
37 Post contains images mandala499 : 0:46 doesn't match with: I think it's a hoax... an elaborate one... The trees just don't look the same in that video... the locations of the trees, et
38 Post contains images 3MilesToWRO : I guess it's best to think what Stanisław Lem once said: "I didn't know there are so many idiots in the world until I started using Internet" This v
39 Post contains links AVLNative : From: http://english.ruvr.ru/2010/04/30/7156819.html As part of the investigation into the tragic accident, the Polish Prosecutor General’s office i
40 pylon101 : MAK is extremely reserved in releasing information. They have been making point in each update that they keep doing investigation with Polish collegue
41 Post contains links AVLNative : Interesting article from http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...+president+twin/2997698/story.html Highlights below - more info at link Poland should
42 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : They should read ICAO Annex 13 and refer to Chapter 5.
43 Pihero : New development : Just heard on the radio France Info news that a preliminary report talks about : - the crew warned twice that "landing was impossibl
44 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : Confirmed here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10125435.stm And in the Polish press: http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomos...sy_osob_spoza_za
45 MD11Engineer : ICAO deals with civilian aircraft. The Polish plane was military. Jan
46 Burkhard : It will be more than interesting to learn who else was in the cockpit. If one of these persons wasn't a pilot but from presidential stuff, we could co
47 kalvado : Another interesting detail in MAK news feed: Captain's total is 3480 hours, FO - 1900 hours. Isn't regional FO's in US supposed to have at least 2000
48 Post contains links AVLNative : Can a Polish speaker add any information from this article? Looks like the fifth voice was female: http://www.tvn24.pl/12690,1654929,0,...s-w-kabinie
49 Post contains links Aesma : I just read on a French newspaper's website ( http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-mon...-equipage-n-etait-pas/924/0/456483 ) that the Polish agency PAP i
50 Post contains links kalvado : map of fragments location: http://www.mak.ru/russian/info/news/2010/files/tu154m_101_pic1.jpg and those fragments put together: http://www.mak.ru/russ
51 Post contains links pylon101 : MAK released interim report. It is in Russian: http://www.mak.ru/russian/investigations/2010/tu-154m_101.html I am sorry I don't have time to translat
52 BuyantUkhaa : True, however the preliminary MAK reports says the investigation was done ICAO-style.
53 Post contains images Owleye : I made an artist impression of the Polish Air Force Tu-154 just before impact... [Edited 2010-05-20 11:13:05]
54 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Not sure I would ever hang that up over my fireplace considering the tragic nature of the subject, but nevertheless, it's a very well done painting. R
55 pylon101 : It's a good painting. Really something new on this site. It's an artistic impression. In fact it trying to gain altitude and flying uphill. So in real
56 VokinLoksar : The report contains currently known facts about the flight and the subsequent crash. It does not go into any analysis of the causes. The first sectio
57 Pihero : pylon101 and VokinLoksar[/b], Thanks for these contributions. A very sad event, made even sadder by the circumstances. I can't believe, even knowing t
58 Post contains links Larshjort : Thanks for the translation. Here's a picture of where the aircraft struck at which angle, including of the artificial horizon frozen nearly inverted
59 Aesma : So, the AF training of the crew was done lightly, and the AF commander was in the cockpit, well well, doesn't look good for the AF for sure !
60 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : One of the people in the cockpit was the chief of the Air Force: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10158156.stm
61 comorin : Just wanted to point out that the aircraft was below runway altitude when it hit the trees. I suspect when you have the ultimate boss on board SOP no
62 Post contains links Danny : The transcript of the voice recorder has been published today. You can read it here (Russian and Polish): http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/2/7961/m7961942.pdf
63 VokinLoksar : I don't have the time for a detailed translation, but here is a summary and a few excerpts: The captain states on several occasions to the crew and t
64 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : also on the BBC now: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/10206841.stm Interesting:
65 VokinLoksar : Just watched Russian news about the publication of the transcript. They clarified that ATC's words "Horizon 101" is an instruction to level off when t
66 Post contains images Pihero : You have to accept the fact that this crew was using the radio-altimeter during that approach. The radio-altimeter is, as a matter of fact akin to a
67 3MilesToWRO : ARK is a radiocompass. (Unless this old name means something different now)
68 3MilesToWRO : It's not a good translation. Actually it's more like "We're starting approach. In case of unsuccessfull approach we leave [...]" and here is somethin
69 Post contains images 3MilesToWRO : In Polish there is no indication whether it's he or she. And the word "wkurzy" is a colloquial term for getting angry. It does not necesssarily imply
70 Burkhard : If we take this serious, he has to be exhumilated and placed to rest at a alocation where people end who kill their wife... So it is poven that there
71 pylon101 : Could anyone make good translation from Polish into English? We all seem to be lost in translation. As far as the crash has already become The Argumen
72 VokinLoksar : That statement is surrounded by two more, which were not clear enough to understand on the tape. Until we get better context it is hard to know what
73 OV735 : ARK (APK in Russian spelling) is NDB/ADF. The first NDB set was tuned to frequency 310 (prolly the outer marker), and the second to 640 (prolly the m
74 Pihero : Maybe but it's quite understandable. The usual briefing for an approach would be like this : "-...In case of a missed approach, we will go-around usi
75 rfields5421 : Like you, I cannot conceive of why a professional crew would consider a radio altimeter reliable in that terrain. Sure it would be useful when over t
76 VokinLoksar : Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember reading any report claiming that the crew were using radio altimeter. How did you guys come to this conclusio
77 pylon101 : If the terrain warning system worked there till the very end - and it did - load and clear - obviously RA worked there as well. But it is the right qu
78 Post contains links Pihero : There is an attempt to translate the report into English that you could find here It is quite true that the original clearances were read back on the
79 3MilesToWRO : Note that the transcript contains a lot on missing phrases. And some of them can be said by crew member. It's an automatic assumption that since we h
80 pylon101 : I don't know. How can phrases be possibly missing? MAK is one of the best crash investigation authorities in the world. They restored tapes which were
81 OV735 : There are quite a few lines marked with "(нрзб)", which stands for "неразборчивая", or "unreadable", meaning that the phrases heard
82 pylon101 : Yeah, sure I saw those "unreadables" in the transcript. Nevertheless, I see the match between avaialble information on the tape and factual informatio
83 pylon101 : Sorry, I forgot to mention in the previous post. The transcript proved that the crew checked pressure (745 mm/Hg) for several times. So VokinLoksar's
84 Pihero : If - and I say IF they relied on baro altitudes for that let-down, with readings every second, that means two things : 1/- They were descending at 60
85 Post contains links AVLNative : Can someone who speaks Polish please summarize this article? http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1663248,0,1,d...row-tu_154-i-il-tez,wiadomosc.html
86 pylon101 : As one could expect conspiracy theories have emerged in Poland. Especially interesting is one about "artificial fog". Though there are some less drama
87 MD11Engineer : You can see it by the fact that the President´s brother did not win the election last week. Jan
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