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"By Americans, For Americans" Claim On Eads Web  
User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1265 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6844 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

EADS North America claims on their website the following statement about the proposed assembled in US A330 civilian and miltary aircrafts:

http://www.kc45now.com/american-made/built-here.asp

"Our state-of-the-art tanker aircraft will be built in Mobile, Alabama, at the country’s newest aviation production center, where we also will produce a commercial freighter based on the same platform, for a combined production of as many as 40 aircraft annually."

From my understanding should this not be :

" By Europeans,Assembled by Americans"

 

Please correct me if I got it wrong.

[Edited 2010-06-10 10:57:13]


World Wide Aerospace Photography
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29689 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6793 times:
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There are a number of US-based suppliers who produce parts for the A330 family (as well as all of the other Airbus Commercial and Military families of aircraft).

User currently offlineavalon2862 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6784 times:

"By Americans, For Americans" means "BUILT by Americans, For Americans"... Europe doesn't enter into that equation - except for production of parts (just like Boeing will get parts from "around the world" if they win the tanker war)

User currently offlineDelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1486 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6760 times:

Have you seen Boeing's rhetoric? And honestly, who cares? Aren't we supposed to be a capitalist society?

Perhaps this would be better in the Military Forum however?


User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 515 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6602 times:

More interesting would be is the Mobile plant union? Being a right to work state and if they were non-union would mean to me lower paying jobs would prevail over higher paying ones.

User currently offlineDelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1486 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6548 times:

Perfect. This thread has amazing possibilities. Not only can we have an A vs. B argument and a free trade vs. protectionism argument, but a union vs. non-union argument as well.

This thread will be epic.


User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1265 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6501 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

Quoting avalon2862 (Reply 2):
By Americans, For Americans" means "BUILT by Americans, For Americans"...

As long as 51% of the components are American MADE, then the claim seems valid. But otherwise it is still not really American built.

I do recognized that there are many part suppliers around the world and that is great. However, the issue arises when someone tries to slip a product as something it is not. I think the Boeing aircraft should be examined too. This is not a A vsd B arguement but a truth in advertising and marketing issue PERIOD.



World Wide Aerospace Photography
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6427 times:

Built in America is a good marketing campaign, but designed in America is a big factor as well. Design work is where technology is and in my opinion is more valuable than manufacturing. Those are high paying specialty jobs. Even though tankers are to be built on existing platforms, there is significant design work involved.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1011 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6427 times:
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Boeing's 787 Dreamliner is an American assembled aircraft with a lot foreign made parts.
Made the USA is not what it used to be.   


User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6377 times:

Quoting eksath (Thread starter):
"By Europeans,Assembled by Americans"

What a terrific slogan that would be for EADS. You should work in their marketing department.  


User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6299 times:

Quoting Delimit (Reply 3):
Have you seen Boeing's rhetoric? And honestly, who cares? Aren't we supposed to be a capitalist society?

Perhaps this would be better in the Military Forum however?

True, but when you can produce your own military aircraft etc. and a high end technology, its better to keep that in country for what its worth. Just like you wouldn't want to give F-22 technology for Iran to build etc.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 8):
Boeing's 787 Dreamliner is an American assembled aircraft with a lot foreign made parts.
Made the USA is not what it used to be.

A lot of that went back to Boeing after all the problems they had.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2011 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6173 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):
but designed in America is a big factor as well.



I've seen those "Design in USA/Made in China" bicycles or "Assembled in USA of Foreign Components" labels. Just makes me laugh. Who's to say USA design is better than anyone else.

Just take Apple for example. Does anyone knows if Apple makes anything in the US? But regular guys and gals out there would swear that Apple is an American (US) company.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 8):
Boeing's 787 Dreamliner is an American assembled aircraft with a lot foreign made parts.



By weight or part count?   

But seriously, if you take a hunk of aluminum, or the raw material for a composite frame and trace it through the whole fabrication process, you'll be surprise on where it starts and the route it takes to get to the final delivered aircraft.

It's just easier wrap your head around the "where it's assembled" concept.

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3709 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6120 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):
Built in America is a good marketing campaign, but designed in America is a big factor as well.

"By Americans For Americans" is a perfect motto. It doesn't say what is "by Americans," it just implies that the plane is, giving patriotic cover to local and state politicians lobbying for it, and I don't believe that Boeing will try very hard to discredit this claim, not only because it is vague enough that it's actually hard to discredit, but because Boeing does have foreign suppliers as well and while it would win any comparison with Airbus over country-of-origin, it may not want to dispel in the process the public's erroneous notion that Boeing is 100% American.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 10):
A lot of that went back to Boeing after all the problems they had.

If you believe that Boeing will hesitate one second to send work and parts to foreign countries again if they think they have resolved the issues that plagued them with the 787, I have a famous French-made statue in New York for sale you might be interested in...

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 10):
True, but when you can produce your own military aircraft etc. and a high end technology, its better to keep that in country for what its worth.

Two issues with that argument:
#1 What do you do when a foreign supplier manufactures parts/equipment that are clearly superior to anything that is produced domestically?
#2 Generally speaking (and you may be the exception), this kind of noble argument tends to disappear when a US manufacturer finds obstacles in its attempt to sell to foreign countries...



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1690 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

So Europe which supports unions, generous social benefits, the right to strike is going to a third world country to manufacture and where few or none of those things are available. Oops, I meant parts of the US.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6060 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 10):
Just like you wouldn't want to give F-22 technology for Iran to build etc.

You are not the America in this analogy though (the EU are) you are the Iran. Thus, presumably you, Iran, would be delighted with F-22 technology and therefore you are saying you will be delighted with A330MRTT technology?


User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1892 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5926 times:

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 12):
"By Americans For Americans" is a perfect motto. It doesn't say what is "by Americans,"

We may assume that it means "Paid by Americans, For Americans"   


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5919 times:

By Americans, For Americans, but Profits EADS, which feeds into Germany/France's GDP, taxed by their governments, which use those taxes to bail out Greece, so those lazy Greek union members can continue their high wage and low productivity lifestyle.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15486 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5825 times:

Quoting eksath (Thread starter):
Please correct me if I got it wrong.

It doesn't matter. There are plenty of good reasons to buy the A330 or 767. Being or not being built in America is not one of them.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 12):
"By Americans For Americans" is a perfect motto.

...because it panders to idiots.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2196 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5779 times:

Quoting eksath (Reply 6):
As long as 51% of the components are American MADE, then the claim seems valid. But otherwise it is still not really American built.

What is American Made anymore. Every thing everywhere is composed of parts from all over the globe, INCLUDING the Boeings.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 16):
By Americans, For Americans, but Profits EADS, which feeds into Germany/France's GDP, taxed by their governments, which use those taxes to bail out Greece, so those lazy Greek union members can continue their high wage and low productivity lifestyle.

What kind of car do you drive? (GM, Ford, etc import parts) Checked the labels in your shirts lately? What about our bailouts? Did you know EADS has manufacturing facilities in Wichita Kansas?

It's a global economy now. Look a the content of a new 777 or 787, then tell me all about EADS again.

BTW. I saw Budwieser on sale in a Waitrose South of London. Maybe they should prohibit that.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

Quoting avalon2862 (Reply 2):
Europe doesn't enter into that equation -

Yes it does. It is an A330 airframe...an European design.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1486 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5674 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 10):
True, but when you can produce your own military aircraft etc. and a high end technology, its better to keep that in country for what its worth. Just like you wouldn't want to give F-22 technology for Iran to build etc.

Let's not let jingoism trump context. This is a tanker to be produced by a company owned by a group of nations that will probably be our allies for the foreseeable future.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
It doesn't matter. There are plenty of good reasons to buy the A330 or 767. Being or not being built in America is not one of them.

Common sense rears it's ugly head.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
...because it panders to idiots.

Twice.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15486 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 18):
I saw Budwieser on sale in a Waitrose South of London.

They are owned by InBev now, so it's really a European product. (at least if you ask someone from St. Louis anyway)

Quoting Delimit (Reply 20):
Common sense rears it's ugly head.

I know right.

And, by the way, BAe Systems sells more to the US than it does to its home country.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2196 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5487 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
They are owned by InBev now, so it's really a European product. (at least if you ask someone from St. Louis anyway)

O M G ! Do the NASCAR fans know this yet? Between that and no more french fries, their calorie intake will be reduced by %75.


I forgot about the InBev thing. I noticed the Free Houses were thinning out a bit again.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineDAL7e7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 357 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5296 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Yes it does. It is an A330 airframe...an European design.

You do know that Airbus specifically (not broad parent EADS) has an Engineering & Design Center in Mobile? Much of the A350 is being designed there. Significant design work on the A380 was done in ICT.



DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
User currently offlineeksath From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1265 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (3 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5195 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
ARTICLE EDITOR

Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 23):
Much of the A350 is being designed there. Significant design work on the A380 was done in ICT.

Sure. But the A 330 is an existing aircraft. Heck there is already a A330 tanker out there. So this is not designed ground up in Mobile,Alabama by Americans hence the claim "By American,For American" is dubious at best.



World Wide Aerospace Photography
25 Burkhard : Exactly. Airbus cannot make a profit from the tanker deal. But having an assembly line for A330s in the US can make them less depended on exchange ra
26 KC135TopBoom : EADS is offering to assemble the A-330F in MOB, along side of the A-330MRTTs sold to the US. But, the A-330 is a product that will see the end of its
27 avalon2862 : No it doesn't... it's being BUILT in Alabama... so unless Alabama joined the EU, Europe only figures into the parts end of things.
28 BMI727 : But considering how much of the money that goes into the cost of designing and building an aircraft goes to engineering, it most definitely is a fact
29 KC135TopBoom : The A-330F and A-330MRTT will be ASSEMBLED in Alabama from parts BUILT in Europe. MOB will be a FAL if EADS gets this contract. There is a big differ
30 par13del : Well, the parts built in Europe will be built in Europe, the flight control software is intellectual property which will remain in Europe, and no mat
31 Post contains links and images astuteman : I can't believe I'm researching this on a Saturday morning but... http://company.monster.co.uk/anheuseruk/ It's a good bet that any liquid beverage w
32 Post contains images autothrust : Its incredible how much BS can be found on this site. I though i had seen everything but this tops it all. You have no idea about EADS , Germany/Fran
33 Post contains images astuteman : Nope. It didn't open an assembly line, but it DID open quite a few other things in the USA for that purpose, some of which have already been alluded
34 Post contains images par13del : For military projects I disagree with both of those comments, especially if one has an all volunteer force. I rue the day when wars etc. are started
35 zeke : Dont know about being a red herring, 150 frames seems to be the volume they need to justify a new assembly line, they have successfully done this in
36 Post contains images par13del : It was related to the post below, on the importance of EADS minimizing their "currency situation" As the astute one mentioned, they were already deal
37 Acheron : That must be why Boeing decided to bid with the EH101 for the Marine One replacement, right?. That kind of put to bed the claims of those who said th
38 zeke : The assembly line in China is not doing 40 a month, the combined A320 series assembly lines in Germany, France, and China are not even doing 40 aircr
39 UH60FtRucker : Par Americans. Pour des Américains.
40 KC135TopBoom : I have asked this question before. Where is the A-330MRTT more capable, efficient, and modern that the Boeing offered KC-767NG? Buying the best airpl
41 zeke : Must be in a lot of places for Boeing not only to dump the KC-767J, KC-767A, and KC-767AT for the KC-767 NewGen. Correct me if I am wrong, is this th
42 KC135TopBoom : It is the third version. Boeing is not offering the Japanese KC-767J or the Italian version of the KC-767A (the USAF 2003 version offered by Boeing w
43 zeke : So you are saying you were incorrect in reply 40 ? as that is what I was saying....the USAF is not looking for "the lowest priced tanker" May as well
44 KC135TopBoom : How did I contradict myself in both replies? The lowest price is that defined in the RFP, not the price per unit from the OEMs, but the USAF adjusted
45 zeke : They are not looking for the lowest priced tanker, "price" reflects what the USAF will pay the OEM. When you buy a car, what you pay the dealer is th
46 kanban : It is also to support about the tenth change of specs from the AF...... only a fool keeps the same package on the table when the specs change... time
47 zeke : As it is being pointed out in various circles, the KC-767 has needed some significant tweaks to make it, while the KC-30 is only needing minor tweaks
48 KC135TopBoom : On 9 July, each OEM will submit their offer, including a price per airplane and package, but that is only the first factor used to determine price. T
49 scbriml : Doesn't that evaluated cost include the IFARA results? You don't seem to have mentioned that.
50 KC135TopBoom : Yes, IFARA will be part of the evaluation. Since the GAO found the IFARA evaluation in 2008 was a problem and part of the sustained protest, people w
51 zeke : Been pushed back to November No, that is the OEM price submitted, period. The cost adjustments that the USAF does not change the price they will pay
52 Post contains links scbriml : That's contract award. Bids are still due by 9th July as far as I can see. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4676853&c=AIR&s=TOP
53 KC135TopBoom : Correct. The current timeline is the bids are due to Wrigt-Patt by 1400 local time (EDT) on 9 July. Then the USAF has until about 12 Nov. for the eva
54 zeke : Funny how when we talk about the RFP requirements I can quote the actual paragraph specifications to backup what I am saying.....and others don’t.
55 kanban : It's interesting how the most convoluted attacks of the process come from those who believe once things are proposed / written nothing can be changed.
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