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India Beefs Up Air Defenses On Chinese Border  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10205 times:

Will the Chinese counter? Are there boundary disputes?

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4742485&c=ASI&s=AIR

Quote:
The Indian Air Force has deployed a full squadron of Russian-made Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole aircraft to an air base near the Chinese border.
The Su-30s are at the Air Force base in Tezpur in the eastern state of Assam.
Another air base near the border, Chabua, is being upgraded to house Sukhois, transport aircraft and eventually the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), a senior Indian Air Force official said.
The moves are part of the effort to strengthen India's defenses against China.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10138 times:

This weakens the argument that India shouldn't buy F-16INs because Pakistan also has F-16s.


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10098 times:

Several years ago, in connection with another topic, I posited the possibility that an expansionist China would cast a covetous eye south and north for land and resources. As I recall that drew howls of protest from a few here.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 10014 times:

Let's see what their MKIs would be up against.....


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They would definitely need something else besides their Tejas, Mirages and MiGs! But it would be too expensive to cover it all with Typhoons or Rafales.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1380 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9938 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Are there boundary disputes?

yes, there is a disputed area and "line of control", similar to Jammu-Kashmir but much less fought over and publicised, between India and China



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlineShmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 453 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9623 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Are there boundary disputes?

SEVERE!!! about 250,000 sqkm. And a war in 62 where India got thrashed royally.

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Will the Chinese counter?

This is a counter to a Chinese build up. The Russo-Chinese treaty covering the Su-30 sale asked for the Sus to be stationed away from the northern borders. so they were stationed in Szechuan aimed at India's north east and in the guangdong province and hainan island aimed at dominating the spratly islands.

The Szechuan bases are the main threat to the entire Indian north-east (about 300,000Sqkm) that are separated from India by a slender chickens neck.

India enjoys civilian overflight rights - but military will probably be suspended by Nepal, Bangladesh and Bhutan during a war - this given the Chinese the opportunity to herd Indian planes into a very narrow killing zone.

http://www.alebo.se/china/maps/china_big.jpg



Vi veri universum vivus vici
User currently onlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9458 times:

Actually, Assam boarders Tibet (which is also claimed by China) and Burma (Myanmar?). Assam has some oil and natueral gas reserves.

India would be hard pressed to defend the state of Assam, but it could be done. They would need a lot more than one squadron of new fighters, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assam


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 9238 times:

Are the Indian pilots much better trained than the Chinese? I would imagine they would have the edge, no?


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2774 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9207 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 7):
Are the Indian pilots much better trained than the Chinese? I would imagine they would have the edge, no?

Not sure, but India has attended Red Flag in Nevada recently so I am sure that helped sharpen their skills somewhat, going up against the best pilots from across the world.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9139 times:


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And a very secretive adversary also.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ry-transparency-still-lacking.html



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9037 times:

India received a drubbing at the hands of China in the 60s. She needs to either have overwhelming superiority against this threat or better still, have the US guarantee her borders. Today we learn that China has just strung a necklace of CSS-5 MRBM missiles across the border:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ch...-borders-with-india-pentagon-45220

Granted, as nuclear powers, MAD comes into play as a deterrent, but for India to take on China and its BFF Pakistan simultaneously is the real challenge it must meet.

The Doomsday scenario is when China has to grow at a certain percentage to prevent civil unrest, and that growth is contingent on access to scarce resources.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8941 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 10):
The Doomsday scenario is when China has to grow at a certain percentage to prevent civil unrest, and that growth is contingent on access to scarce resources.

I'm not sure I'd call it "Doomsday", but I have maintained that this is a likely scenario at some point in the future. The Indian border isn't the really scary one; IMO, its the northern border with Russia, particularly along the Amur. A nuclear armed China, desperate for living space and resources just might be willing to take the chance and go "all in" in an attempt to carve out a chunk of Siberia. That's a "Doomsday" scenario.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8885 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
A nuclear armed China, desperate for living space and resources just might be willing to take the chance and go "all in" in an attempt to carve out a chunk of Siberia. That's a "Doomsday" scenario.

With the slight problem that China would cease to exist if they don't give up quickly.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8878 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 12):
With the slight problem that China would cease to exist if they don't give up quickly.

Alternatively, China might just think they could intimidate Russia by threatening mass retaliation? Russia's defense capabilities are nowhere close to what they were in the heyday of the USSR; less interceptors, aircraft and missiles, and lacking the conventional military capability to resist a serious Chinese offensive thrust into Siberia. I have no idea of the extent of the Chinese nuclear stockpile but I would be willing to hazard a guess that they could deliver a few hundred nukes via aircraft and missiles. Would Russia's leadership risk mutual assured destruction?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8867 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
Quoting comorin (Reply 10):
The Doomsday scenario is when China has to grow at a certain percentage to prevent civil unrest, and that growth is contingent on access to scarce resources.

I'm not sure I'd call it "Doomsday", but I have maintained that this is a likely scenario at some point in the future. The Indian border isn't the really scary one; IMO, its the northern border with Russia, particularly along the Amur. A nuclear armed China, desperate for living space and resources just might be willing to take the chance and go "all in" in an attempt to carve out a chunk of Siberia. That's a "Doomsday" scenario.

Let's hope that for a while China is more interested in economic growth versus expansionism. Ironically, being armed to the teeth with nukes is what keeps the peace these days - so much for START.

Russia still has ICBMS and nukes in the 000's but perhaps stretched for conventional warfare?


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2170 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8857 times:

All this talk about China and Russia reminded me of the Tom Clancy novel "The Bear and the Dragon".
If Russia is so weak, maybe they should join NATO to get protection from China 

Back to China and India. I would think you'll more likely get a shooting war between China and Taiwan then China and India.

Even a shooting war between China and Vietnam over the Spratly is more likely. The border conflict in 1979 had China doing of damage to Vietnam but getting it's nose bloodied badly in doing so. India would be a tougher opponent.

Furthermore, any long term conflict between India and China would require major logistics. How are the road/train network in western China vs. eastern India? These issues are not as flashy as planes and missiles but they are the things that win wars. Maybe the Indian C-17 will shore up some logistics deficiency?


bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinenorcal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8845 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 12):
With the slight problem that China would cease to exist if they don't give up quickly.

Sadly I don't think China would care if they lost tens of million or even a hundred million of it's citizens. Their government simply doesn't value human life. As long as their leadership isn't directly affected and they can maintain control of the country they simply won't care. They also have plenty of nukes capable of reaching Russia and an overwhelming technological and numerical military advantage. I think Russia's best defense (as it's always has been) will be the winter.

I hope if full out war ever did break out between China and Russia or China and India that the US could find a way to stay out of it.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
How are the road/train network in western China vs. eastern India?

I don't know about China, but India has awful trains


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8772 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
Would Russia's leadership risk mutual assured destruction?

I don't know, but I'm 99% sure Putin wouldn't sit on his hands and just accept it. He would show strength, and IMHO this includes nuclear warfare if necessary.

Quoting norcal (Reply 16):
Sadly I don't think China would care if they lost tens of million or even a hundred million of it's citizens. Their government simply doesn't value human life. As long as their leadership isn't directly affected and they can maintain control of the country they simply won't care.

The number would be more like several hundred millions. And if a war of such scale breaks out, the leadership WILL be affected. The country is going to break down completely, and what may be left of the leadership will be swept away.


Just my   

Edit:

Quoting norcal (Reply 16):
They also have plenty of nukes capable of reaching Russia and an overwhelming technological and numerical military advantage.

You're correct about the numerical advantage, but IMO not about the technological one. After all, despite their own aircraft programmes, they are still buying Su-30s and reverse-engineering Su-27s. Their strategic bomber fleet essentially consists of domestic-built, mildly updated Tu-16s. However, it seems like they're now advancing in terms of ICBM technology.

[Edited 2010-08-18 13:52:37]


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8743 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
Back to China and India. I would think you'll more likely get a shooting war between China and Taiwan then China and India.

I agree that a Taiwan "gambit" is much more likely. However, just like us here trying to postulate on the future, even the best of plans go awry. (I've always felt, and have speculated here one or two times, that Taiwan has a couple of insurance nukes stashed away, possibly from the aborted South African program, or purchased outright from Israel, India, or Pakistan--or even those zany, lovable North Koreans). A China-India border quarrel could escalate into something ugly, but I believe it would stop short of nuclear war. The Chinese would have too much to lose for too little gain. Siberia, on the other hand, represents a huge treasure trove of living space and resources--including arable land.

I guess another question would be related to the Indian Air Force. Most of us, myself included, felt it was aimed at Pakistan. Perhaps China looms just as large in their planning?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlinevivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 542 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8705 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
I guess another question would be related to the Indian Air Force. Most of us, myself included, felt it was aimed at Pakistan. Perhaps China looms just as large in their planning?

After the 1962 war with China and the subsequent period of "relative peace", China was sort of relegated to Threat No. 2. Remember that India fought two and a half wars with Pakistan there after - 1965, 1971 and the Kargil conflict in 1999. Pakistan has therefore been a more current and regular threat as compared to China.

However, China has always been on the defence planners' minds. Former defence minister George Fernandes had once famously branded China as India's enemy no. 1. There have been a few incidents (border skirmishes, intrusions, etc) with China on and off, but largely there has been peace.

These steps that India is taking NOW is in response to China building up its military infrastructure across the border, especially in Tibet. This includes building the railway line to Tibet, upgrading its airfields and now the deployment of CSS-5 missiles.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8692 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
I'm not sure I'd call it "Doomsday", but I have maintained that this is a likely scenario at some point in the future. The Indian border isn't the really scary one; IMO, its the northern border with Russia, particularly along the Amur. A nuclear armed China, desperate for living space and resources just might be willing to take the chance and go "all in" in an attempt to carve out a chunk of Siberia. That's a "Doomsday" scenario.

Last time they tried that at in 1969 at Damansky, they got pulverized. It was the Chineese regular army vs. a platoon of our Border Guards. A direct order from the Kremlin did not let the Russian regular army engage as that could spark a war, so it was basically the border guards fighting against wave after wave of Chineese infantry. And these guys were also conscripts, and now the quality of training in our army is going up, although quantity is decreasing. So I think that even conventionally, they would have a hard time getting anywhere.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1581 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8684 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):

I'm not sure I'd call it "Doomsday", but I have maintained that this is a likely scenario at some point in the future. The Indian border isn't the really scary one; IMO, its the northern border with Russia, particularly along the Amur. A nuclear armed China, desperate for living space and resources just might be willing to take the chance and go "all in" in an attempt to carve out a chunk of Siberia. That's a "Doomsday" scenario.

as described in the Clancy novel: "The Bear and the Dragon".


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8582 times:

A timely article on China and India was published today by the Economist.

http://www.economist.com/node/16846256

Quote:
The prospect of renewed war between India and China is, for now, something that disturbs the sleep only of virulent nationalists in the Chinese press and retired colonels in Indian think-tanks. Optimists prefer to hail the $60 billion in trade the two are expected to do with each other this year (230 times the total in 1990). But the 20th century taught the world that blatantly foreseeable conflicts of interest can become increasingly foreseeable wars with unforeseeably dreadful consequences. Relying on prosperity and more democracy in China to sort things out thus seems unwise. Two things need to be done.

First, the slow progress towards a border settlement needs to resume. The main onus here is on China. It has the territory it really wants and has maintained its claim to Arunachal Pradesh only as a bargaining chip. It has, after all, solved intractable boundary quarrels with Russia, Mongolia, Myanmar and Vietnam. Surely it cannot be so difficult to treat with India?

That points to a second, deeper need, one that it took Europe two world wars to come close to solving: emerging Asia’s lack of serious institutions to bolster such deals. A regional forum run by the Association of South-East Asian Nations is rendered toothless by China’s aversion to multilateral diplomacy. Like any bully, it prefers to pick off its antagonists one by one. It would be better if China and India—and Japan—could start building regional forums to channel their inevitable rivalries into collaboration and healthy competition.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlinevivekman2006 From India, joined May 2006, 542 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8512 times:

I agree with the above article.

Boundary disputes are going to be secondary issues. In this age, potential conflicts will be triggered off by India & China wrangling over commercial & political issues. India and China are two strong exporters, and they are bound to wrestle for market share.

A recent example is the supply of fake medicines by Chinese companies with "Made in India" labels.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...e-in-India/articleshow/4633377.cms

http://www.knowabouthealth.com/china...drug-with-label-made-in-india/988/

These and other issues like disputes over patents, etc have more potential to sour relations between the two countries.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1822 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8491 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 20):
Last time they tried that at in 1969 at Damansky, they got pulverized. It was the Chineese regular army vs. a platoon of our Border Guards. A direct order from the Kremlin did not let the Russian regular army engage as that could spark a war, so it was basically the border guards fighting against wave after wave of Chineese infantry. And these guys were also conscripts, and now the quality of training in our army is going up, although quantity is decreasing. So I think that even conventionally, they would have a hard time getting anywhere.

The quality of the Chinese military is also going up. The Chinese military is way more professional unlike in 1969 when China was in the grips of the Cultural Revolution, and the quality of the equipment has improved dramatically. Educational requirements have sharply increased despite the Chinese military being a conscripted force (only a small portion of people eligible for conscription are actually drawn into service). It seems the Chinese have learned the lessons of the past few decades and from the observation of conflicts around the world.


25 Post contains images Shmertspionem : The state in question is arunachal pradesh - not Assam. Arunachal is claimed in its entirety by china. Also all of Assam's ONG reserves dried up a fe
26 maxter : I reckon everything East of the chicken's neck will be the first to go. I remember flying over that part of the world in '71 thinking then that it wo
27 par13del : China is still occupying land taken during the last Sino-India war Which made no difference, they still took the majority of the terriroty that they w
28 tu204 : Yes, however their forces outnumbered ours many times over because it was only the Border Guards vs. the Chineese. And the ammount of casualties on t
29 Shmertspionem : Uh -oh dangerous remark. All the treaties from Khiakhta in 1727 onwards were unfair. If you use "unfair" as a measure you would have to cede everythi
30 Post contains links Lumberton : More information. Where's the love? http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4759294&c=ASI&s=TOP
31 Post contains links Lumberton : Update. Interesting that they found it necessary to advertise that the SU-30MKI is "nuclear-capable". http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4997541&a
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