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Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 12964 times:

From AW&ST. Could these be Chinese built? So far, no reaction from Australia or Singapore (at least that I could find).

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...ers%20Plus%20F-16s&channel=defense

Quote:
BEIJING — Indonesia intends to acquire 180 Sukhoi Flankers and also to buy Lockheed Martin F-16s, Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro says, setting out plans for a massive expansion of the Southeast Asian country’s air combat force.

If Indonesia is serious about buying 180 Flankers, then Canberra will almost certainly fund the Royal Australian Air Force’s plan for 100 Lockheed Martin F-35s, says Andrew Davies, an analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. Until now, there was a significant chance that Australia would buy fewer F-35s.

The Sukhoi fleet will be built up by 2024, with 18 aircraft in each of 10 squadrons, Purnomo says. F-16s will replace BAE Systems Hawks, the government’s Antara news agency says in a report carrying Purnomo’s statement.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12946 times:

Interest..... I would expect the RAAF to increase its order of F/A-18Fs, too. They could still reduce their order for the F-35A if they consider buying some F-15SEs.

User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12898 times:
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180 Flankers??? what the heck for??? or is the product so maintenance prone and the parts supply so poor that one needs that many to keep 30% available?

User currently offlineCMB56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12853 times:

I don't care how many pilots you have if you don't have the engineering staff to keep them airworthy and combat ready the best technology in the world is useless.

User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12851 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 2):
180 Flankers??? what the heck for??? or is the product so maintenance prone and the parts supply so poor that one needs that many to keep 30% available?

That makes for some awefully expensive "cann" birds. What kind of threat does Indonesia feel is present to justify that kind of weapons buildup? And what is the threat from Indonesia that would cause Australia to build up their defenses in response? Has there been animosity between those two nations that would justify the mutual defense expansion?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 12797 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 2):
180 Flankers??? what the heck for???

That's my thought as well. Who do they feel so threatened by that they need that many planes. Or more directly, who are they going to attack?

If they wish to do this, then it'd be only appropriate for Australia to push very strongly for the F22 Raptor, and large numbers of them in response (along with keeping the F-111 on for longer, and refurbishing them). F35 is just not adequate.

It would be utter madness to sit by and do nothing with that kind of air-force power next door. Prudence demands that we also arm ourselves up very heavily so we can adequately 'observe' the other side.

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 4):
Has there been animosity between those two nations that would justify the mutual defense expansion?

Not in my recent memory, but there was that intervention in Timor Leste that I think caused some rather major headaches for Indonesia. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a few people high up that are still quite annoyed by that.

[Edited 2010-09-30 17:11:57]

[Edited 2010-09-30 17:13:04]

User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 12674 times:

The reason they are doing it is because Obama is president and he wont do anything to stop them. Do you think the previous administration would have offered them the F-16?

Quoting cpd (Reply 5):
If they wish to do this, then it'd be only appropriate for Australia to push very strongly for the F22 Raptor, and large numbers of them in response (along with keeping the F-111 on for longer, and refurbishing them). F35 is just not adequate.

Ok you do know that the F-35 and even the F-18 Superhornet can handle the flankers right? Maybe not in the numbers an F-22 but both are still very capable aircraft against the Flanker

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Interest..... I would expect the RAAF to increase its order of F/A-18Fs, too. They could still reduce their order for the F-35A if they consider buying some F-15SEs.

They dont need the F-15se to handle the indonesian airforce, the vermont air nation gaurd can handle the indonesian airforce. Although I always thought that Australia could have used a version of the F-15 but not needed to compete with indonesia.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12581 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
Ok you do know that the F-35 and even the F-18 Superhornet can handle the flankers right? Maybe not in the numbers an F-22 but both are still very capable aircraft against the Flanker

But the F22 makes a much stronger statement.

Australia rejected the F15 already (I remember the promo image of one in RAAF scheme), so it's unlikely we'll see one in the future.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12566 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 7):
But the F22 makes a much stronger statement.

It would, but that option is off the table--permanently.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12553 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
but that option is off the table--permanently.

as permanent as anything subject to congressional review... change the mix in congress or other external considerations, and it becomes doable again...


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12542 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 9):
as permanent as anything subject to congressional review.

The only problem with that is that it was Gates and the White House that pushed for the line to close, not Congress. Changing the "mix" in Congress won't alter that fact and in a dismal budget environment; when all the heavy lifting has been done on killing at least one program it won't be resurrected.

This is one case to which I'm quite confident in saying that the "never say never" rule does NOT apply.  Wink

[Edited 2010-10-01 09:01:29]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12380 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
This is one case to which I'm quite confident in saying that the "never say never" rule does NOT apply.

I wouldn't say that to loudly. Stranger things have happened. If keeping the LM line of F-22s open and keeping their employees and suppliers working, then anything is possible. That includes the RAAF buying some F-15C/Ds Eagles and F-15Es Mudhens. The F-15E comes the closest to replacing the F-111C/G capabilities. Of course the RAAF could bring back the F-111Gs and cancel the scheduled retirement of the F-111C.


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4675 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 12354 times:
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Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
The reason they are doing it is because Obama is president and he wont do anything to stop them. Do you think the previous administration would have offered them the F-16?

Well Reagan sold them F16s when they had a military dictator, they have a half passable multiparty democracy now so why shouldn't we sell them F16s again???

The better question is can they really afford these planes , and can the Australians afford a response. I would say no to both, especially the latter.


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3383 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12309 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Stranger things have happened.

didn't Reagan also restart the B-1 or was it the C-5 line... ?


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 12239 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 12):
why shouldn't we sell them F16s again???

Because it's just not a very good idea for a number of reasons that should be quite obvious. For the same reason we shouldn't have given training to their special forces (who then terrorised innocent people). The country also has huge problems with insurgency from groups like JI - so it should get those under control first.

Quoting kanban (Reply 9):
as permanent as anything subject to congressional review... change the mix in congress or other external considerations, and it becomes doable again...

Exactly right. If it makes money and keeps people in jobs, it's worth exploring the sale to reliable allies (such as Australia).

Quoting trex8 (Reply 12):
an the Australians afford a response.

I think we probably could if needed. It'd also give the government a card to play against the conservative opposition. If the conservatives oppose the spending, the government can paint them as being weak on national security and caving in to the radical anti-war movement.  

This is one case where a bit of good old fashioned massive overkill would be quite good. Just as the old F-111 was.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Of course the RAAF could bring back the F-111Gs and cancel the scheduled retirement of the F-111C.

The worst problem here is when a decision is made, the retirement and scrapping is usually done with indecent haste. The powers that be never usually like to make embarrassing backdowns on major policy decisions.

[Edited 2010-10-02 19:23:58]

User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4675 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12158 times:
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Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
Exactly right. If it makes money and keeps people in jobs, it's worth exploring the sale to reliable allies (such as Australia).

Reliable allies like ones whose FM says publicly if the US is fighting China over Taiwan , don't count on us??? Somehow that wasn't just a slip of the tongue. Canberra seems very reliable when there is no real threat to the the Australian mainland , when the PLA could wipe Sydney and every other urban area of Oz off the face of the earth then suddenly all that bravado and loyalty seems to dissipate!


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7084 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12122 times:

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 4):
That makes for some awefully expensive "cann" birds. What kind of threat does Indonesia feel is present to justify that kind of weapons buildup?

If you look at the Australian build up of late the reason for Indonesia buying more kit could be justified.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 12):
and can the Australians afford a response. I would say no to both, especially the latter.

Considering the recent big ticket purchases in Australia recently 3 x Destroyers, 2 x LHD's, 24 x F18, 60 x M1A1, plus other programs under consideration Collins II (possibly doubling ther fleet to 12), ANZAC II, and the likely purchase of a 4th destroyer and maybe a 3rd LHD, it's pretty obvious Australia that Australia has the funds.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12041 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 15):
Reliable allies like ones whose FM says publicly if the US is fighting China over Taiwan , don't count on us???


Honestly, the foreign minister is just that, a foreign minister and no longer has much power to do anything. In fact, nobody has any power to do anything in this parliament at the moment.

I don't know quite what brought on that anti-Australian rant. Perhaps it might be better said in front of our forces who are fighting alongside yours in Afghanistan and suffering lots of casualties, or better still, in front of the families of those who have died..

[Edited 2010-10-03 15:37:26]

User currently onlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3904 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12003 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 17):
Honestly, the foreign minister is just that

And the Indonesian defence minister is just that, too. This is just not going to happen.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11987 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
They dont need the F-15se to handle the indonesian airforce, the vermont air nation gaurd can handle the indonesian airforce.

That line had me laughing out loud for real! That was funny  
Quoting kanban (Reply 13):
didn't Reagan also restart the B-1 or was it the C-5 line... ?

Reagen brought back the B-1A that Carter cancelled as the B-1B. He had nothing to do with the C-5 line afaik.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4675 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11927 times:
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Quoting cpd (Reply 17):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 15):
Reliable allies like ones whose FM says publicly if the US is fighting China over Taiwan , don't count on us???


Honestly, the foreign minister is just that, a foreign minister and no longer has much power to do anything. In fact, nobody has any power to do anything in this parliament at the moment.

Downer went to Beijing and spouted something which Howard had to immediately back track on publicly. FMs do not go overseas on official trips and say things in public unless they are loosing their minds or its policy. Take your pick.


User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 11875 times:
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Quoting trex8 (Reply 20):
Downer went to Beijing and spouted something which Howard had to immediately back track on publicly. FMs do not go overseas on official trips and say things in public unless they are loosing their minds or its policy

It might be worth noting that neither FM Downer nor PM Howard have had any influence over Aus Foriegn policy for 3 years now... longer than the current US administration!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13964 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11862 times:

Back in the 1960s, under Sukarno, there existed a movement in Indonesia, which wanted to unite all countries with Malayan based languages (Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, Philippines) under Indonesian leadership to form a South-East asian superpower. The fact that the other countries did not want to join Indonesia did not detract Sukarno and his government from their goals and the Indonesian army started invading parts of Brunei and the Malaysian part of Borneo, as well as causing sabotage in Singapore.
Malaysia and Brunei asked their former colonial power UK for assistance. A joint Malaysian / British expeditionary corps managed to beat back the Indonesian units in Borneo. The whole thing ended when Sukarno was overthrown by General Suharto.
For more information see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maphilindo

I wonder if this ideology still has followers?

Jan


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4675 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 11839 times:
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Quoting stealthz (Reply 21):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 20):
Downer went to Beijing and spouted something which Howard had to immediately back track on publicly. FMs do not go overseas on official trips and say things in public unless they are loosing their minds or its policy

It might be worth noting that neither FM Downer nor PM Howard have had any influence over Aus Foriegn policy for 3 years now... longer than the current US administration!

True but when they were in power and made these comments they ran the shots and do you think Rudd or Gallard is going to be less friendly to Beijing than Howards more conservative government, especially Rudd who was a real sinophile, possibly the most simophile and China savvy Australian national leader ever???

The point I am making is that while Australia is a great US ally, it has its own national interests which may not align with the US as this situation shows. If Clinton or Powell had traveled to Beijing and told Tokyo or Seoul, there may be issues with China where they shouldn't count on the US's help in a fight against China, this wouldn't give the ROK and Japan government pause to think about their true relationship with the US? Downers comments were probably meant to be given in private to the PRC leaders but it shows where the Australian government policy was at that time. The fact that they would even think about it, while perfectly understandable from an Australian national interest viewpoint, points to the fallacy that old allies will always be true allies in the future. Everyone is out for number one only.

Quoting cpd (Reply 17):
I don't know quite what brought on that anti-Australian rant. Perhaps it might be better said in front of our forces who are fighting alongside yours in Afghanistan and suffering lots of casualties, or better still, in front of the families of those who have died..

I apologize if you consider it a rant but if the number of casualties is the sole criteria for how fancy the toy is that the US should sell , the F22s should be sold to the French and Germans who have had double the casualties in Afghanistan than Australia, heck the Danes and Latvians on a per capita population basis should be getting Trident missile!


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 11724 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 23):
I apologize if you consider it a rant but if the number of casualties is the sole criteria for how fancy the toy is that the US should sell , the F22s should be sold to the French and Germans who have had double the casualties in Afghanistan than Australia, heck the Danes and Latvians on a per capita population basis should be getting Trident missile!

It's worth noting that Australia has supported the USA more closely than some of the other countries you've mentioned. It's not so long ago you might remember that your lot criticised Germany and France in particular for being "Old Europe" among other less than pleasant comments (some people saying that both countries supported terrorism).

So to accuse Australia as somehow not living up to the commitments of the ANZUS treaty is disingenuous. Our commitments, relative to our size are greater than many NATO countries.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 23):

True but when they were in power and made these comments they ran the shots

They are gone - for a very long time. I don't think the current government will be particularly aligned with China at all. The relationship at the moment seems to be one of convenience, more than anything else. We did however just have one of the more "testing" times in the Australia China relationship, so it's not a fait accompli as to which way our foreign policy will lean. But the ANZUS treaty carries more importance than the economic interests I think. And that's the way it will remain under the current leadership.

I can see that you've read the Wikipedia entry reasonably well (with citation needed for that particular comment). If I'm not mistaken, there is a requirement to consult, but not an automatic requirement to defend.

You seem to equate Howard as being more conservative than the current government. However, I don't think you've got it right - his style was more to govern based on what will get him elected. At the moment, there is no difference between the supposed left and right side of politics (the two main parties at least). They are both centre-right wing parties, while the traditional left has been taken up by the Greens, who are currently 'supporting' the minority Labor government on some things, but not everything so it seems.

On national security issues, I'd expect a broad-consensus from the Labor and Liberal/National parties in anything requiring votes in the houses of parliaments, meaning that Green support would not be needed on those issues. So to sum up, there won't be any stark shift to the left on defense policies.

Australia can be very good support at the moment for defense projects that have been put on ice. Keep production lines running, keep people in jobs - with no risk that the technology will be reverse engineered into someone else's fighter plane.. (I'm thinking of a couple of countries in particular). Our economy is working - we weather the financial storm quite well, and in the near future it seems like our budgets will be back in surplus. It's a winning situation for both sides.

[Edited 2010-10-04 17:48:49]

25 JTR : Can the Indonesians really afford this? The article says the Indonesians want 40% production share and technology transfer. I see this announcement as
26 Post contains images ptrjong : Surely I'm not an expert in Indonesian affairs either, but I know Indonesia a bit and I think the country's government does not have the stomach to b
27 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Ahh, it seems APA subscribes to the views aired here on A.net (or is it the other way around?)..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...k-tank-pro
28 Lumberton : "Improbably political fiction" is an accurate characterization. Barring a miraculous change of heart from the administration, the F-22 line is closing
29 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : As is usually the case, the desired goods ran way ahead of the funding available..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...plans-major-procurement-d
30 Post contains images ptrjong :
31 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Those additional six Su-30s had been in the cards even as the last deliveries were being ordered. It was requested that delivery of the latest airfram
32 ptrjong : Maybe, but the two articles are not congrous.
33 Post contains links mandala499 : The Military Anniversary parade, goes all out on for the Air Force every 5 years... All 6 Su-27s and all 6 Su-30s participated, involving the Russian
34 MD11Engineer : So what are these anti-Malaysian sentiments about? Is it still a reaction following Indonesia´s opposition to the forming of the Malaysian federatio
35 Post contains images mandala499 : No, it's petty border disputes, and cultural claims dispute... nothing worth going to war for! Trade ties are still very close... I guess it's a slow
36 Post contains images ptrjong : Thanks for the update, Mandala. Peter
37 Post contains links and images alberchico : What if Indonesia negotiated for an order of J-10's and flankers as a high low mix. They both use the same engine. But would the Russians allow the ex
38 connies4ever : Absolutely. Not saying the TNI can't do it, but there is a learning curve to crawl up to be able to support 180 a/c. Also very important is the train
39 Post contains images mandala499 : Any G-to-G deals with China would involve other "packages"... guess what, the previous vice-president pushed for more deals with China as a "diversif
40 ptrjong : Good point. I'm sure the Flanker license agreement does not allow for exports. The Chinese are taking liberties with that agreement, as I guess the R
41 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Great, someone with a conscience.....at least. I hope there's better to ask for in a place a little north of there. It was rumored that the Chinese-b
42 Post contains images mandala499 : Could be the mods they've done to the design, in the fields of avionics and systems that make the difference. However, the airframe, if better, would
43 mig21umd : Indonesia struggles to keep a handful of Flankers operational at the moment so I don't see how they will be able to operate 180. That is why there has
44 trex8 : It is also well established that the first few Su27s assembled by the Chinese had to be re assembled, needless to say the Chinese and Russians blamed
45 Baroque : Well I do note that neither Mandala nor any of the Indonesians I know rave on about it much. It was all a bit much for Malaysia to unite especially w
46 MD11Engineer : It seems to be necessary that there is more cooperation among the South-East Asian countries, especially in the face of huge territorial claims by th
47 Post contains links Baroque : Very concerned. There is already and ambit claim over Natuna which has producing oil and gas fields as opposed to potential fields that is the case f
48 columba : Wow Indonesia buys 180 Flankers as well as F16s and Germany will at some point will only have a fleet of 180 (probably even less) fighter aircraft
49 MD11Engineer : As you know I´ve got family ties with the Philippines, so I tend to support their claims, as long as they are reasonable. The Chinese claims (made b
50 trex8 : Some of these disputes go back to the early 70s when S Vietnam still existed!
51 mandala499 : Oh... Batik, Angklung, the Rasa Sayang'e song, Satay, Gamelan, etc etc etc etc etc... the list goes on and on and on and on and on... *yawn* It is NO
52 Post contains images Baroque : Yes, I know some of the folk that were supposed to be surprised and I know they would not. Just wonder why the paper decided to invent a spot of surp
53 hka098 : 180 Flankers? How are they going to afford to buy them, maintain them and put gas in them?
54 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Almost a year later, a ray of hope..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...bish-mothballed-f_16c%C2%A7ds.html Quote: "Just how long it will take
55 Baroque : Interesting. Need some good news. Not enough rain yet in Bandung to get the wells flowing, so good news is at a premium.
56 wvsuperhornet : The F-111 couldn't handle a flanker and the F-22 is not being produced anymore the US can't even buy anymore. The Current fleet of your superhornets
57 Post contains images mandala499 : Well, the C295 was in Bandung the other week... and marked as NC-295... so U know what that means!
58 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Further to the above, FG reports that the US DSCA is preparing the FMS' congressional notification..... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...used-f-
59 mandala499 : What's funny is that, the CN-235 was supposed to be the F-27 replacement... but ended up as "additional airlift capability". But, when the C-295 came
60 Post contains links Devilfish : Bali High!..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...50m-sale-of-refurbished-f_16s.html Would Block 25s lend themselves easily for upgrade to Block
61 Post contains links and images Devilfish : More to the above..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...n-Fighters-to-Join-Flankers-07205/
62 ThePointblank : My guess would be the MLU upgrade... it gives older Viper's a major avionics upgrade that make them fairly equivalent to the Block 50 standard.
63 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Not sure if this qualifies..... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...0h-transports-to-indonesia-365320/ Quote: "'The offer is subject to Indonesia
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