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UAE Demands Landing Rights For Rafale Sale  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10272 times:

Any pretense of this being solely a military deal has long gone. According to this news report, and Steve Trimble's blog at Flight, the UAE is not only demanding that France take back 60 Mirage 2000s in trade, but grant Emirates and Etihad additional landing rights in France, to the detriment of Air France. In other words, a choice between industrial "crown jewels".

http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...nce-.html&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Quote:
According to several sources, the Emiratis are now in the balance of additional traffic rights (permissions flights) in France, mainly in Roissy, for their airlines Emirates (Dubai) and Etihad especially, the carrier of Abu Dhabi. That nearly a week of a second round of bilateral negotiations on air services, six months after the failed first, when Paris has rejected the demands colossal Emirates (doubling the number of flights in France) . The representatives of Abu Dhabi had gone mad.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...report-rafale-sale-sparks-war.html

Quote:
Until recently, France was reportedly resisting demands by the UAE to take back about 60 Mirage 2000-9s in exchange for a Rafale sale. But now French newspaper La Tribune has reported the UAE has insisted on a second condition.

In return for buying the Rafale, France must give the UAE's two airlines -- Abu Dhabi's Etihad and Dubai's Emirates -- more landing slots at major French airports, especially Charles de Gaulle near Paris.

The French are absolutely desperate to sell the Rafale to an overseas customer. India, Brazil, and the UAE represent their best shots. On another thread I posted links that cited the F-18 was purportedly being considered by the UAE in lieu of the much more costly French aircraft, but now the UAE's end game becomes apparent. Frankly, IMVHO, if they were to put airbus A380 orders on the table, the French would no doubt cave in and grant them all the rights they wanted, in addition to acceding to these two demands.

The UAE has shown they are willing to do what it takes to foster the expansion of Emirates (and Etihad); witness the imbroglio with Canada over landing rights for EK. There have already been skirmishes in Europe on the same subject.. 100 A380s on order and a significant share of the A350 program provide plenty of leverage.

And the French really, really want to sell the Rafale....


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10194 times:

Well, this puts the ball clearly in France's court. How much are they willing to give up just to make a sale?

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10175 times:

A clear sign that Ethihad is part of "Abu Dhabi Inc." and not a private company like other airlines.

Jan


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10168 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):
Ethihad is part of "Abu Dhabi Inc."

Dubai Inc., Abu Dhabi Inc., Sharjah Inc., different emirates, all under the UAE umbrella. I considered putting this thread on Civ-Av, but there have been enough acrimonious discussions on the topic already. Personally, I think the airbus governments will give the UAE whatever they want so as not to jeopardize the A380/A350 sales,even at the expense of their national airlines. WRT the Rafale, it is only domestic sales that are sustaining the production line, and at a minimum rate. They are DESPERATE for a foreign sale. They'll probably get the Brazil deal, but only at the expense of considerable technology transfer.

As for taking the Mirage 2000s in trade, the French could possibly do this and sell them to another country. I wonder what their "trade in" value is? I know Taiwan would undoubtedly be interested in acquiring more, but the French government would eat ground glass before they risk offending the Chinese government and putting airbus sales at risk. India is buying new fighters. Who else would be interested?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9997 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Who else would be interested?

It would be interesting to see India double their current fleet. Anything to replace the MiG-21s earlier would be a good idea and they already operate the aircraft in suitable numbers. The Mirage 2000 was also initially a contender for the MRCA contest.

Out of left field but someone like Indonesia might be a (very) remote possibility? While it is not a Su-27 or F-16 derivative they would likely have no issues acquiring spares in case of sanctions. Perhaps operate 20-30 and use the rest for spares and attrition? It would give them an opportunity to replace the older aircraft in their fleet such as the F-5 and F-16A as well as reduce the number of types. I can't imagine France/Dassualt would ask a lot for them either.

Last even more remote option might be a private company to start an aggressor squadron. We keep hearing talk about a contracted aggressor squadron operating out of Europe somewhere. Again plenty of spares but perhaps the Mirage 2000 pilot base is too small to support this kind of operation?

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
On another thread I posted links that cited the F-18 was purportedly being considered by the UAE in lieu of the much more costly French aircraft

The F-18 has a lot of advantages including common weapons with their F-16s but most of the Arab nations have tended to purchase weapons politically as well as needs based and I don't see the UAE being any different. A rafale deal gives them a foot in both the US and Europe as well as a different type to any other Air Force in the region.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 9908 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 4):
A rafale deal gives them a foot in both the US and Europe as well as a different type to any other Air Force in the region.

It would, but this news of the UAE demanding a quid pro quo (quid pro quos?) could signify that they have drawn a line which they won't cross, i.e., no landing rights, no Rafales; no "take-in-trade-Mirage 2000s", no-deal. If their bargaining position has hardened this much, the French would be facing terms that would be tantamount to capitulation. Just last June most industry observers thought the Rafale was a cinch for the UAE. Then late in the summer, news emerged that they really liked the F-18. Now, they want landing rights & presumably slots at CDG. Air France will fight this tooth and nail, but if it comes down to exporting the Rafale, continued airbus sales, and the continued welfare of EADS, I think Air France will come in second place.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9662 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The French are absolutely desperate to sell the Rafale to an overseas customer. India, Brazil, and the UAE represent their best shots.
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
As for taking the Mirage 2000s in trade, the French could possibly do this and sell them to another country. I wonder what their "trade in" value is?

Dassault's marketing strategy seems too rigid. They may lose a bit by taking back the Mirage 2000-9s but could recoup their loss if they clinch the deal. I don't imagine the UAE asking a lot for those as they also appear eager to unload them. If anything, I see the French making a bargain basement offer. So the landing rights remain as the ticklish issue.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
They are DESPERATE for a foreign sale. They'll probably get the Brazil deal, but only at the expense of considerable technology transfer.

They could use the Mirage 2000-9s as sweetener. Those are more advanced than the jets the FAB received recently. Brazil is unique among the Rafale prospects in that it could use the Mirage 2000-9 as a second tier fighter without much disruption in their organization. Of course, this scheme might reduce the number of Rafales ordered eventually.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 4):
It would be interesting to see India double their current fleet. Anything to replace the MiG-21s earlier would be a good idea and they already operate the aircraft in suitable numbers. The Mirage 2000 was also initially a contender for the MRCA contest.

Although familiar with its earlier version, and below sanctioned strenght, the IAF may need to find a place in its order of battle for the homegrown Tejas. The Mirages, though suitably qualified, could eat into that. Besides, they have tons of relatively new Russian metal.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 4):
Out of left field but someone like Indonesia might be a (very) remote possibility?

Most promising would be former eastern bloc countries looking to recapitalize their fleets to ease transition into NATO, but lack the finances to acquire brand-new aircraft.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9653 times:

I don't like that kind of deals, nor the idea of giving the blueprints to Brazil, but I'm thinking AF has less to lose than Dassault/EADS has to gain, so it should be done.

And if that brings down the price of some routes it can't be a bad thing for customers.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 9627 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
Most promising would be former eastern bloc countries looking to recapitalize their fleets to ease transition into NATO, but lack the finances to acquire brand-new aircraft.

Thats possible, but 68? A dozen here, a dozen there, but finding a home for all might be tough.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
but I'm thinking AF has less to lose than Dassault/EADS has to gain, so it should be done.

I think that AF and its employees would vigorously disagree with you on this.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 9432 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
Most promising would be former eastern bloc countries looking to recapitalize their fleets to ease transition into NATO, but lack the finances to acquire brand-new aircraft.

I didn't even think about that but your right, that would be an ideal scenario for an eastern Eurpoean country!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
Thats possible, but 68? A dozen here, a dozen there, but finding a home for all might be tough.

You don't have to use all 68. I imagine anyone who purchased these used frames would also acquire a significant number as spares. After all the Eastern Europeans have been using that strategy to keep their aircraft airworthly for a while now.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
Although familiar with its earlier version, and below sanctioned strenght, the IAF may need to find a place in its order of battle for the homegrown Tejas. The Mirages, though suitably qualified, could eat into that. Besides, they have tons of relatively new Russian metal.

Given the number of Mig-21s, 27 and Jaguars they are trying to replace I think there will be enough room left for the Tejas as well as the SU-30, MiG-29, Mirage, and MRCA.

Ultimately it might just come down to what condition the Mirages are in.....


User currently offlinegipsy From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 9409 times:

How about equipping the QE Carriers with Rafales? Or is the F35 the final decision...or maybe it's unthinkable? F35 would be good for the smaller Carriers like Juan Carlos Class. That deal would surely aid sales ( and lift some pressure to take the not so good deals) for the Rafale and I see it's real strength in the Naval Version.

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 9230 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
but I'm thinking AF has less to lose than Dassault/EADS has to gain, so it should be done.

I think that AF and its employees would vigorously disagree with you on this.

Well, I know more people at Airbus and Dassault anyway !

But seriously, AF isn't going anywhere and some competition is good, while on the other hand military contracts are rigged anyway, so we have to do some rigging too.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6453 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (3 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8959 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
I think that AF and its employees would vigorously disagree with you on this.

Maybe AF employees one day will actually have a reason to go on strike.

Apart from that, France surrendering to good old-fashioned blackmail in weapons trade could backfire on France in many other ways.

First of all it might be harder for some mainly US based airlines to avoid Boeing B737s and buy A320s instead.

If France surrenders, and the issue becomes widespread knowledge, then there is hardly any French export article which doesn't have the potential to take a hit. It could have the potential to repeat the "nuclear test incident" a couple of decades ago when shops all over put up big signposts reading "No French products here".

There is also the much more likely outcome, that the whole issue "fades away" and a secret deal is settled some day somewhat out in a rather distant future. Maybe on a day when AF is already on strike for another reason, or for no reason.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (3 years 10 months 5 hours ago) and read 8511 times:

I don't see how some landing rights would have any of the consequences you're talking about. 99,99% of people have no idea of what landing rights are.

Besides, it's the UAE making the blackmailing, not the other way around.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

Perhaps the US could use this tactic, too? We buy the EADS A-330MRTT KC-X offer but France must allow unrestricted access to all French airports for AA and DL to completely take over all air traffic between North America, all Pacific destinations, and the rest of the EU? Plus throw in that France must buy the KC-767NG, P-8, Wedgetail, and C-17s from Boeing and C-130Js from LM.

                 


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8142 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
Thats possible, but 68? A dozen here, a dozen there

Do they really want to sell all 68? I've read that they were trying to sell those to Egypt. Croatia and Slovenia could be good for a dozen each. Same with Romania. Serbia might also be interested. As other countries in Latin America too.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
but finding a home for all might be tough.

If they're that desperate to get rid of the remainder, they could try peddling those to the PAF.  
.
Quoting Ozair (Reply 9):
Ultimately it might just come down to what condition the Mirages are in.....

Seven years old, possibly not flown as intensely as other air forces would, with plenty of oil money for maintenance - not bad. Unless the French sold them lemons in the first place.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Besides, it's the UAE making the blackmailing, not the other way around.

Depends on the viewpoint. The other party would see it as astute bargaining. As you say.....

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11):
on the other hand military contracts are rigged anyway, so we have to do some rigging too.


Latest word on it is.....

"Gulf king mocked French jet as 'yesterday's technology'"

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...rench-jet-as-"yesterday's-".html



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8056 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
Latest word on it is.....
"Gulf king mocked French jet as 'yesterday's technology'"
" target=_blank>http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art....html
That link seems to have been voided.

Here's one that works--at least for now....

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=5133577&c=MID&s=TOP



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7940 times:

Seems France is having trouble selling their contracts? No wonder President Sarkosi is pushing the Rafale, A-330MRTT, A-400, and other airplanes or projects. Sarkosi tried to push Obama into the A-330MRTT, too.

He, like other 'world leaders', is pushing his own country's production lines to keep the French people employed. That is just like everyone else is doing.

[Edited 2010-12-01 07:06:31]

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7909 times:

Now, it has become a question of source.....

"Bahrain disavows criticism of French jet in leaked US cable"

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...french-jet-in-leaked-us-cable.html



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

Update:

It seems talk of the conclusion of a $13B arms deal between the US and Iraq has greatly boosted Dassault's chances of making its first ever Rafale export sale to the UAE.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...u-Courant-in-Time-05991/#more-5991

Quote:
"Jan 6/11: French media report that during a vsit to Paris in mid-December 2010, UAE armed forces commander Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan asked France to renew its proposal to sell up to 60 Rafales to the UAE.

The recent purchase of 200 Meteor missiles by the French government reportedly removed one of the UAE's concerns. Other equipment like the Damocles tasrgeting pod has been integrated late, due to budget constraints, but the French purchase ensures that this won't happen to the long-range Meteor missile as well. A partial squadron of Rafale F3s equipped with Reco NG and Damocles pods is reportedly operating from a new French base in Abu Dhabi, in support of deployments to Afghanistan as well as the UAE sale. That still leaves issues of AESA radar capabilities, improvements to the Snecma M88 engines, disposal of the UAE's 60+ plane Mirage 200 fleet, and possibly airline landing rights near Paris as items of contention.
"



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6670 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 17):
He, like other 'world leaders', is pushing his own country's production lines to keep the French people employed. That is just like everyone else is doing.

Do you have a small idea how big the french workshare of the A400M is...?
I do not think so...

France is not really the main involved country in case of the A400M:


http://www.n24.de/media/import/afp/a...305_19/photo_1267807600447-4-0.jpg


User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2243 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6105 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The UAE has shown they are willing to do what it takes to foster the expansion of Emirates (and Etihad); witness the imbroglio with Canada over landing rights for EK. There have already been skirmishes in Europe on the same subject.. 100 A380s on order and a significant share of the A350 program provide plenty of leverage.

I am sure some here will still claim the airlines are not connected to the government and they don't function as an integral part to play in policy. It is normal for pro quid pro with military orders and usually it covers trade issues. However the tone and nature of these demands is typical for those involved and highly unusual in normal trade negotiations.


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