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Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?  
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3606 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 13002 times:

I under stand that in California, C-130s with new eight blade props, are be tested. These C130 are powered by the old T-56 I believe, but they are going though the same eight blade props conversion that E-2 Hawkeyes and C-2 Greyhounds just went though. If any body have any info on the eight blade C-130s, please post it?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 12989 times:

Here is an Air Force pages talking about it:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123229491

http://www.edwards.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089573


From what I can see, it looks like they are replacing the T-56 engines with Rolls Royce engines (along with the propeller). If this upgrade works as good as they hoping, it looks like the legacy C-130's could be around for even longer. I'm not sure if the E-2's and C-2's had an engine change for their new props.



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1696 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12859 times:

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 1):
Here is an Air Force pages talking about it:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123229491

http://www.edwards.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089573


From what I can see, it looks like they are replacing the T-56 engines with Rolls Royce engines (along with the propeller). If this upgrade works as good as they hoping, it looks like the legacy C-130's could be around for even longer. I'm not sure if the E-2's and C-2's had an engine change for their new props.

Problem is that the legacy Hercs are suffering from centre wing box cracking, and the only solution to that problem is a very expensive swap of the section with a section that was destined for a new Herc J. The incremental costs of keeping the legacy Herc and buying a new Herc from LM isn't that much I'm afraid after all the man hours required to perform the job.


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 12809 times:
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It's a prop swap only, engine remains the same. BTW: the T-56 is a Rolls Royce engine since RR bought Allison.

I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...



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User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12653 times:
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What about a 10 bladed prop? Wouldn't that decrease vibration even more or would it make the system too complex?

Thanks,

F



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User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12457 times:

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...

It might but I doubt it. From what I have read, the Jato systems are used on the birds making artice runs. I dont think the new prop provides that much more lift than the old one, atleast not enough to make up for the loss of the Jato.

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 4):
What about a 10 bladed prop? Wouldn't that decrease vibration even more or would it make the system too complex?

Yeah a 10 blade prop would be a bit much. The new 6 and 8 blade props are much more quite and efficent than the old ones.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
BTW: the T-56 is a Rolls Royce engine since RR bought Allison.

I was unaware of that, thanks!



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12468 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12450 times:

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 5):
It might but I doubt it. From what I have read, the Jato systems are used on the birds making artice runs. I dont think the new prop provides that much more lift than the old one, atleast not enough to make up for the loss of the Jato.

The first article linked above says:

Quote:

"It is designed specifically for the LC-130 mission in Antarctica," said Maj. C.B. Cain, a C-130 flight commander. "Right now, they use these jet-assisted takeoff bottles to help them takeoff to get to about a 60-knot takeoff range. If this propeller does what it is supposed to do, then it would produce additional thrust and reduce the need for those JATO bottles, or eliminate them completely.

Of course, emphasis is on the "if the propeller does what it is supposed to do" part...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineCMB56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12369 times:

The modification to the aircraft does not replace the engines.

The engines are upgraded to full electronic controls instead of direct mechanical control and the new composite propellars are installed.

The combination has major improvements in thrust, fuel burn, and engine life. The question is how long is the payback between the upfront cost and the savings.


User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 12089 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Of course, emphasis is on the "if the propeller does what it is supposed to do" part...

Agreed there. I dont see how a propeller can equal the same thrust 8 rockets. I think it might be a bit of a stretch.



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12468 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11951 times:

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 8):
I dont see how a propeller can equal the same thrust 8 rockets.

Very good point. I saw the Blue Angels "Fat Albert" do a RATO and it's very impressive.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3471 posts, RR: 47
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 11683 times:

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...

I suspect the prop change is being made for the same reason the USN E-2/C-2 acft changed to 8 bladed props.... the "old" propeller was no longer being manufactured = time for a look at what current technology has to offer.



*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
User currently offlinehercppmx From United States of America, joined May 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 11564 times:

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 8):
Agreed there. I dont see how a propeller can equal the same thrust 8 rockets.

On the Legacy c-130's the 8 jato bottles add enough trust to make it as if you have a 5th Engine On the plane. The C-130J model has different engines and props, and jato isn't an option on the J models. The J's at military power produce the equivalent thrust of a legacy with Jato. The main engine difference is 1. Fadec instead of a hydro-mechanincal fuel control. 2. the engine on the J's has variable stator vanes. 3. the J engine is not direct drive like the legacy's 4. the prop changed from a 4 bladed hamilton standard 54H60-111 to a 6 bladed prop made by dowty.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
BTW: the T-56 is a Rolls Royce engine since RR bought Allison.



Yes the T56 is now considered a Rolls Royce engine. the legacy KC-130T's operated by the USMC use the T56-A-16. It's a 14 stage axial flow single spool compressor. with 4 stages on the turbine. It's direct drive, the prop is fed through a reduction gearbox with 13.54 to 1 Reduction. I.E. 100% on the engine equals 13820 rpm and 1020-1021 rpm on the prop.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...

As I understand the bottles are no longer made. (maybe due to cost.) I know that the blue angels "fat albert" no longer does JATO shots, and we don't do them in the fleet. The 8 bladed prop was tested on the LC-130 a.k.a SKI-130 for at least the last 3 years on it Antarctic trips. I don't think the lack of JATO was an Influence in the prop change as JATO is very very very rarely used in the fleet, if at all. I have never see a C-130 besides "Fat Albert" use JATO.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
I saw the Blue Angels "Fat Albert" do a RATO and it's very impressive.

I was fortunate enough to ride on Buno 164763 A.K.A. "Fat Albert" on it's 3rd to last JATO demonstration. It's impresive on the outside, but on the plane it's so much better. at Vr they light the rockets and it almost throws you sideways toward the back of the aircraft it climbs at 40-45 deg. AOA to around 110 KIAS and then they do a zero g pushover which creates about 4-6 seconds of weightlessness. The entire demonstration is remarkable inside the plane. So much so that you hope a C-130 your on never does that again. That Plane is capable of so much more then the standard mission profiles we fly.



C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12468 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 11498 times:

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 11):
The entire demonstration is remarkable inside the plane. So much so that you hope a C-130 your on never does that again.

LOL! Sounds like a very cool experience to have, but just once!

The Wiki JATO page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JATO

has a video of LC-130 doing a JATO takeoff in the snow.

I went there to see if JATO or RATO was the right term to use. The answer is:

Quote:

In all of these cases the term "jet" is correct but the system is more accurately called RATO. However JATO remains the most popular version, apparently due to its US origin.

True jet-engine assisted takeoff (as opposed to rocket) was used on the later piston engined airplanes such as the B-36 bomber (six turning, four burning), among others. But as mentioned, a rocket is also a "jet" engine, because one definition of "jet" is "a coherent stream of fluid that is projected into a surrounding medium, usually from some kind of a nozzle or aperture".



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11196 times:
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Quoting B727LVR (Reply 8):
Agreed there. I dont see how a propeller can equal the same thrust 8 rockets. I think it might be a bit of a stretch.

Those eight JATO bottles are only 1000lbs of thrust each. That's not really all that much on a 150,000lb airplane. It's difficult to compare HP and thrust, since it's dependent on the speed of the aircraft or requires a better understanding of the engine propeller combination, but a four engine jet in that size range would have a total of about 35,000lbs installed, so as hercppmx noted, the eight JATO bottles are roughly equivalent to a fifth engine.

So if the new props and engine combination increases low speed thrust by 20-25%, they can replace the JATO bottles at the same takeoff weight. The AE-2100's are flat rated to just a bit more power than the old Allisons, and can probably put out a fair bit more power, especially in (far) below ISA conditions (RR claims that versions can produce up to 6100HP). The Antarctic birds may have dispensation to use them at the higher rating for ice takeoffs (often the extra power is available in the case of an engine failure anyway, but normally isn't used outside of emergencies).

[Edited 2011-01-03 23:33:16]

User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11147 times:

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 11):

"I have never see a C-130 besides "Fat Albert" use JATO."


Here is a couple of youtube vids of the USAF Special Operations testing on the YMC-130H... They were testing to see if they could takeoff and land in a football stadium in downtown Tehran, for the first hostage rescue attempt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gXfK4ypirI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKCl3lfAx1Q&feature=related



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12468 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 11123 times:

Quoting mffoda (Reply 14):
They were testing to see if they could takeoff and land in a football stadium

Well, I bet the A400M can land in half a football field, with a tail wind too!  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3606 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 9085 times:

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 5):
Yeah a 10 blade prop would be a bit much. The new 6 and 8 blade props are much more quite and efficent than the old ones.

It would be interesting if somebody tried a 12 blade prop design.


User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1858 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 9020 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):

Well, I bet the A400M can land in half a football field, with a tail wind too!

It would be pretty impressive to see a 148' long plane land in a 150' long space.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlinedlednicer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 544 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 12 months ago) and read 8968 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

As the caption of this photo indicates, Snow Aviation has tested 8-blade Hamilton-Sunstrand props on an old WC-130E:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eric K. Cowan



Separately, the USAF ANG LC-130Hs are getting upgraded with the same prop:
http://www.airforcetimes.com/xml/news/2008/10/airforce_cold_props_101308/101008af_propeller1.JPG

Plus, the ANG is looking at the possibility of putting on them other legacy Hercules:
http://www.ng.mil/news/archives/2010/11/images/110510-C-130-full.jpg


User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8823 times:

Quoting dlednicer (Reply 18):
As the caption of this photo indicates, Snow Aviation has tested 8-blade Hamilton-Sunstrand props on an old WC-130E:

Slightly tech-question here: What are the "pods" at the end of the wings of the Herc' in the first pic, Anyone know? They look a bit small to be fuel tanks, but I wouldn't know and havent seen any on other Weather Recon/search -130's..


User currently offlinetrigged From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8363 times:

Quoting dlednicer (Reply 18):
Plus, the ANG is looking at the possibility of putting on them other legacy Hercules:

I know the Wyoming ANG birds had them on for testing, but took them back off. That photo included in your reply is a WY ANG bird so they had them for a while.

Link to hi-res photo of them being installed: http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/med...todb/photos/080305-F-3571D-009.jpg

More photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wyoguard/sets/72157626004982863/

The 8 blade props were taken off in the end of February.


User currently offlineulfinator From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8310 times:

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...
Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):

Very good point. I saw the Blue Angels "Fat Albert" do a RATO and it's very impressive.
Quoting hercppmx (Reply 11):
I know that the blue angels "fat albert" no longer does JATO shots, and we don't do them in the fleet.

I can't remember who exactly I was talking to but I mentioned that I would love to see 'Fat Albert" do a JATO demonstration and was told that apparently the Navy had stockpiled the late remaining JATO bottles somewhere, I assume Pensacola, and the warehouse they were in was damaged by a hurricane and the JATO bottles were all lost. Can anyone confirm that?


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 8226 times:

Quoting ulfinator (Reply 21):

I can't remember who exactly I was talking to but I mentioned that I would love to see 'Fat Albert" do a JATO demonstration and was told that apparently the Navy had stockpiled the late remaining JATO bottles somewhere, I assume Pensacola, and the warehouse they were in was damaged by a hurricane and the JATO bottles were all lost. Can anyone confirm that?

Not Exactly... The Vietnam era JATO Bottles were used up in Operational testing (Operation Eagle Claw... etc.) and air demonstrations by the U.S. Navy demo's "Fat Albert" which ended in 2009? I Believe? has there been a demo since 2009? Anyway it will be missed!!   



harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineNBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8185 times:

It was my understanding as well that the damage to NAS / Forrest Sherman Field (NPA / KNPA), USA - Florida">NPA by hurricane Ivan in 2004 severely depleted the stockpile of JATO bottles. During the planning for the NAS New Orleans Airshow that year, it was determined that Fat Albert would not be doing anymore JATO shots until the homecoming show that year. As for the official end of the JATO shots I am not sure.


"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineKingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7753 times:

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 19):
Slightly tech-question here: What are the "pods" at the end of the wings of the Herc' in the first pic

Sensor pods.


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