Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Croatian AF To Possibly Stick With The MiG-21?  
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11026 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Just caught an interesting article in the morning paper, and thought I'd share it here... despite the much publicized fighter tender drama of the past few years (which was eventually cancelled due to a lack of funds), the Croatian AF has apparently prepared options to keep the country's fleet of MiG-21s flying past 2013, when it is estimated that the remaining airworthy examples are going to run out of service life. The said article states that representatives of MiG and Rosoboronexport - the Russian arms export agency - are coming to Croatia to asses the state of the MiG-21 fleet and give their say on how many, if any, could be modernized to keep them flying for a while longer. If very few or none qualify, the AF is even thinking of buying additional used - but newer - MiG-21s to fill the gap until a new type is selected and brought into service.

In case of the first option, the original plan - as stated by the article - would involve the upgrade of eight aircraft currently in long-term storage, none of which had been through the previous modernization program at Romania's Aerostar in 2003. The total cost of this option is estimated to be around EUR 15.000.000 - though again this depends on how many of the 30+ year old airframes MiG technicians declare as fit for upgrade.

The second option, which really caught my eye, would see the acquisition of "several" newer-build MiG-21s from India. The article labels them as MiG-21UPGs, but a quick internet search revealed that these are in fact upgraded Bisons retired from service a few years ago. The aircraft are said to have been produced in the late 80s, and to still have about 10 years worth of service life remaining. The cost of one aircraft is estimated as EUR 3.000.000 - which seems to be quite a bargain for a jet interceptor...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Chetan.S.J


On a side note, the wording of the article gave me the impression that if the stored examples are deemed fit for upgrade - and/or the deal with India could be negotiated - the MoD would prefer this option for the time being (until the economy recovers) rather than select a new type.


No plane, no gain.
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11034 times:

A wise decision. What do they need fighters for anyway, nowadays?

[Edited 2011-02-03 01:01:17]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11021 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
A wise decision. What do they need fighters for anyway, nowadays?

In a nutshell, air policing. And while the MiGs are adequate for the role and the occasional interception, they are getting very old, very difficult to maintain and, in more than one case, increasingly hazardous to fly. You can only eek so much out of a 30+ year old airframe... plus, the list of NATO requirements they conform to is rather... short .



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1864 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10953 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 1):
A wise decision. What do they need fighters for anyway, nowadays?

They need them because being a part of NATO comes with the responsibility for sharing in it's defense. If they want to be a partner and not a welfare state, they need to pull their weight.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10927 times:

Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):

Are all the MiGs currently grounded? I'll be in Zagreb in the summer and maybe in Pula.

Peter 



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10893 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
Are all the MiGs currently grounded? I'll be in Zagreb in the summer and maybe in Pula.

No, the fleet is still up and flying  . Reports in the newspapers say there are 4-6 aircraft airworthy at any given time (though the number has been known to vary), with six stored examples that can be returned to flying status on relatively short notice should the need arise. The former - and I believe the latter as well - were upgraded by Aerostar to the bis D/UMD standard, while the remainder of the fleet is in deep storage and still in their original bis/UM configuration.

Though there has been no official word out so far, two of six the stored aircraft have probably been reactivated to replace the two single-seaters lost in a mid-air collision in September 2010 during a training exercise.

[Edited 2011-02-03 06:27:17]


No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10864 times:

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 5):
No, the fleet is still up and flying

Thank you. Uhm, both at Zagreb - Pleso and Split?

Peter 



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10851 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 6):
Thank you. Uhm, both at Zagreb - Pleso and Split?

The fleet is generally based at Zagreb, but on occasion they also operate from Pula and Zadar (mostly for training and during various exercises). However, there are always at least two examples at ZAG (the QRA pair I believe), so that's the safest bet - even though catching them in flight is a wild game of chance. Also, under normal circumstances they never operate from SPU, since their operational specifics would cause massive disruptions to civilian traffic... and at any rate, the comparatively small apron at SPU means the AF wouldn't have anywhere to put them  .



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10800 times:

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 7):

I'll spend a few hours at ZAG anyway. Nice to know there's a chance to photograph a MiG, albeit a remote chance. Thanks again.

Peter 



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10726 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 8):

I'll spend a few hours at ZAG anyway. Nice to know there's a chance to photograph a MiG, albeit a remote chance.

I just checked GoogleMaps and visible on the overheads are 4 MiG-21's on the pad and what looks like 4 in camoflauged revetments (2 in single spots each and 2 together in 1 spot). I'm not sure when the photo was taken, but I'd assume they don't move their whole AirBase around much.  


User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10716 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 9):
I just checked GoogleMaps and visible on the overheads are 4 MiG-21's on the pad and what looks like 4 in camoflauged revetments (2 in single spots each and 2 together in 1 spot). I'm not sure when the photo was taken, but I'd assume they don't move their whole AirBase around much.

Unless they're taxiing or in various stages of takeoff or approach, the MiGs cannot be seen from ground level from any part of the airport (unless they're standing out in the open on one of the northern pads).



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4327 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10709 times:

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 2):
You can only eek so much out of a 30+ year old airframe

The design itself is way older than that. The first prototype flew back in the mid-50's, which means the design is on the order of close to 60 years old.

Regardless, nice to see instances of this old warhorse still being put to good use. One of my favorite planes when I was a kid growing up. And I'll never forget as a kid watching the scene at the end of the movie, Ice Station Zebra, when it showed them flying in close formation (probably a composite of the same plane), except the final shot of them flying overhead, which was of F4 Phantoms - guess the producers couldn't get their hands on close-up footage of MiGs flying directly overhead when the movie was made back in 1968.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 10614 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting redflyer (Reply 11):
The design itself is way older than that. The first prototype flew back in the mid-50's, which means the design is on the order of close to 60 years old.

Indeed; however, I was referring to the age of the CroAF examples, since I believe they were all manufactured around the late 70s  . Having been through a lot - some having even seen combat during the early 90s - and clocking up a significant amount of flight hours, the airframes themselves are tired and worn out, which limits the scope of their modernization.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 11):
Regardless, nice to see instances of this old warhorse still being put to good use.

The only problem is that their age - and the ever-increasing problem of finding good, quality spare parts - prevents them from being utilized to the full (as far as Croatian AF examples are concerned at any rate)... the Bison though appears to be a wholly more competent aircraft that the basic bis.



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10437 times:

Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
the much publicized fighter tender drama of the past few years (which was eventually cancelled due to a lack of funds)

A pity that the financial situation did not improve. There are some rather fine used examples that might be available (maybe not in the bracket the CroAF is looking at).....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aldo Bidini
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gary Claridge-king


.....they are asking a lot even for the embargoed Iraqi F1s.

Bulgaria is said to be seeking new fighters. They might let go of their other MiG-29s if and when they get their new-buys.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...shed-mig-29-fighter-re-enters.html


Also, there seems to be some frames left out of these upgrading efforts.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...elay-hits-serbian-mig-29-deal.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-mig-upgrade-debuts-at-berlin.html

.....could be viable options when the time is ripe. I just don't know how politics with these countries would play into a deal. Used A/B Gripens still seem the best bet.

Alternatively, Croatia can revisit Belgian and Dutch F-16A/Bs, or even American ones.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10296 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

I'd say the option of buying a handful of Bisons has the air of a good idea about it. From our "man on the ground" perspective, the country's economy isn't really showing signs of improving within the next year or two, meaning that any fighter purchase could still be some way off. If, for the sake of the argument, we assume that a new tender will be started in 2013 - when the current MiG-21 fleet will run out of service life - it'll still be at least two years before it is completed, before the aircraft are delivered and the air and ground crews trained (not to mention all the servicing equipment replaced) - so two years during which the country will be left without an aircraft capable of even basic air policing.

In this situation, Croatia would be forced to "outsource" these missions to another NATO member state, which - given Slovenian experiences - is quite the pricey option. Given that it would significantly sap the MoD budget, an arrangement like this could also give rise to a mentality of buying anything - going for the cheapest option - just to return everything "in-house" as soon as possible and stop the flow of funds over the border; which can - and surely will - have negative long-term consequences for the CroAF.

But, if the MoD does indeed go for the Bisons, they'll have a significantly more capable aircraft than the current bis D - but an aircraft that is still essentially a MiG-21bis, with which both the pilots and ground crews are familiar, and for which a developed system of servicing and maintenance already exists. The Bison's low unit price wouldn't make a large dent in the budget, and for it you'd get an aircraft that can comfortably operate for another 10 years. This would remove much pressure from the MoD budget, allowing more substantial funds to accumulate over several years, and allow the purchase of the best aircraft for the job - which would also imply the purchase of a brand new aircraft. All the while, the country's fast jet pilots would get to "keep their hand in", while the more advanced and complex systems of the Bison would allow them to get used - at least partially - to the new digital systems they can expect in the new aircraft  .



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10208 times:

Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
The second option, which really caught my eye, would see the acquisition of "several" newer-build MiG-21s from India. The article labels them as MiG-21UPGs, but a quick internet search revealed that these are in fact upgraded Bisons retired from service a few years ago.

This sounds very fishy. Why would India retire and sell aircraft which were upgraded only a short time ago?



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10203 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting A342 (Reply 15):
This sounds very fishy. Why would India retire and sell aircraft which were upgraded only a short time ago?

The answer most probably lies in the Indian MRCA competition, which had turned into a soap opera much like the Croatian fighter competition  . India's MiG-21s were modified and upgraded well before a clear winner - and indeed, a clear end - of the MRCA competition was in sight. Now that the Indian AF is re-equipping with the Su-30MKI and Tejas - the latter specifically tailored to replace the MiG-21 - the Bisons may have been deemed redundant; and with a number of countries still operating MiG-21s of all variants, the brass at the Indian AF may have seen a market for their aircraft. Selling them outright while they're still relatively "fresh" might very well cover the costs of their upgrade and leave the Indian AF with no net loss in the long run  .



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10200 times:

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 16):
The answer most probably lies in the Indian MRCA competition, which had turned into a soap opera much like the Croatian fighter competition . India's MiG-21s were modified and upgraded well before a clear winner - and indeed, a clear end - of the MRCA competition was in sight. Now that the Indian AF is re-equipping with the Su-30MKI and Tejas - the latter specifically tailored to replace the MiG-21 - the Bisons may have been deemed redundant; and with a number of countries still operating MiG-21s of all variants, the brass at the Indian AF may have seen a market for their aircraft. Selling them outright while they're still relatively "fresh" might very well cover the costs of their upgrade and leave the Indian AF with no net loss in the long run .

I'm not saying that the information provided by the newspaper is wrong, it's just that I haven't heard anything about India retiring the upgraded Bisons...

Regards,
A342



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlinemig21umd From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10157 times:

Sounds like a very impressive aircraft and would be a great coup for Croatia at just 3 million a piece.

@ A342, I think the 'Bison' a set to retire in 2018 and maybe some sooner as squadrons are replaced by newer aircraft.



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 10086 times:

The bison is a very potent little fighter. I believe the Indian Air Force has developed a jammer into it, which makes it a threat even to 4th generation fighters.

A no-nonsense approach to get a familiar (but more capable) aircraft into the Croatian Air Force for a minimum cost really sounds like a great idea. Nevertheless, buying a new type, to generate industrial offset (also in other domains) such as the SAAB deal could have a significant positive effect on the economy..

however, just buying what you need for minimum cost certainly seems more sensible right now.


User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10044 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 19):
Nevertheless, buying a new type, to generate industrial offset (also in other domains) such as the SAAB deal could have a significant positive effect on the economy..

Indeed; however, in the current economic climate in Croatia, the short term effects could very well do more damage than the long term benefits could do good. Buying a sizable fleet of Gripens (or any other new aircraft for that matter) would really stress the country's budget unduly, a budget that is already pretty knackered and near collapse; and the long term comebacks from the offset would take quite some time to make themselves felt, possibly too late to reverse the problems the acquisition would do in the near term.

In any other situation this would not be much of a problem, and would if anything be a good bet; but the country is really teetering near the edge, with the word "bankruptcy" being tossed around with increasing regularity on the state level... and in view of a viable alternative in the form of the Bison, there is really no need to rush any major purchase (especially since you can get 7-8 Bisons for the price of one Gripen).



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9999 times:

I guess I can't agree more that the Bison will do what the CroAF needs and more!

Perhaps some interesting follow up contacts with India will come out of it. Indeed, that's where the future bussiness will take place anyway, so why not look to the farther East.

BTW, concerning the armored vehicles to be constructed in Slav. Brod; is that still on?


User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9987 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 21):
I guess I can't agree more that the Bison will do what the CroAF needs and more!

It's almost the perfect interim solution - a very capable aircraft with at least a decade's worth of life in it, but in essence still a MiG-21bis with which the entire AF system is already well versed  . Plus, it'll fly air policing and intercept missions just as well as a Gripen, EF-2000 or MiG-35.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 21):
BTW, concerning the armored vehicles to be constructed in Slav. Brod; is that still on?

Hmmm, I must admit I do not know... I personally haven't heard (or read) anything about this for quite awhile now.



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9952 times:

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 18):
Sounds like a very impressive aircraft and would be a great coup for Croatia at just 3 million a piece.

It's amazing that these old fighters keep going on while newer MiG-29s are being sidelined for all sorts of ailments. They don't build fighters like they used to anymore?

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 20):
and in view of a viable alternative in the form of the Bison, there is really no need to rush any major purchase (especially since you can get 7-8 Bisons for the price of one Gripen).

I guess that's a pretty unassailable argument.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinemig21umd From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9901 times:

What is most important for the CroAF is to maintain its fast jet capability and maybe even take over the air policing roll of Slovenia too. This would allow CroAF to be partially paid to keep there pilots trained and the jets in the air. Short term assistance for the financial problems the government is facing.

Maybe even offer to train a few Slovenian pilots and even give them air and mission time on the aircraft as an incentive to Slovenia to go along with the idea.

The more I think about it the more sense it makes to acquire the Bison. That is if they are available.



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
25 PIEAvantiP180 : The first doesn or so times i went thru ZAG i saw the Mig-21s in their usual parked position. The only way they r usually visible is when ur aircraft
26 Post contains images TripleDelta : Both air forces were quite active during the early 90s. It is true that the CroAF had initially jealously guarded its first few MiGs, but as their nu
27 mig21umd : True regarding the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina (unless you were Nato enforcing the no fly zone) but not true during the conflict in Croatia. I
28 Post contains images TripleDelta : I must admit I haven't heard of this (or if I had I don't remember)... but given the various levels of controversy regarding the whole of 1995 on bot
29 Post contains images TripleDelta : Speak of the devil, the morning paper is back with an update on the MiG situation . According to the published article, MiG engineers - invited to ass
30 mig21umd : Maybe they were not fighting the 'Serbs' but at this time the Yugoslav army was fighting for the interest of Serbia and Milosevic only. (sorry but It
31 TripleDelta : Indeed, as I had mentioned myself, the JNA was controlled directly from Belgrade. But to say that fighting a multinational army was fighting the "Ser
32 pylon101 : I remember my first trip to Croatia in 1999 - there were so many wounds of the war. I was driving back to Zagreb using highway going behind the mounta
33 Post contains images TripleDelta : Very true. Now the question remains will the MoD go for the overhaul or the Bison... if they go for the former, I wonder if it'll include just a stri
34 Post contains images TripleDelta : Ah, the saga continues . A fresh article in this morning's paper has shed some more light on the state of the CroAF's MiG fleet. The most interesting
35 ORDFan : Realistically, how many tactical aircraft does Croatia need to fulfill its NATO obligations. Also, politically-speaking, wouldn't Eurofighters make th
36 A342 : I think most politicians will understand that only few countries can afford a relatively expensive option like the Eurofighter...
37 TripleDelta : Actually, the EF consortium has been actively pitching the Typhoon for quite awhile now, and has been very active in the local media as well. And whi
38 A342 : Well, I could see some surplus German or Italian examples being sold to Croatia, but new ones?
39 TripleDelta : That's the thing - everything said in the media so far had assumed the Typhoons would be new-builds by default; and while this is the most likely sce
40 PIEAvantiP180 : Wow did not know the aircraft were used to that extent during the conflict. You are right that by living in Bosnia a person would not have seen much.
41 Post contains links and images TripleDelta : Actually - at least in Croatia - they too were very active during the early stages of the war. When it had all started back in 1991, a vast majority
42 F27Friendship : forgive me from deviating from the topic, but; eventhough the vast majority of regular JNA troops were from all the former republics of the Federal Y
43 TripleDelta : The troops that had committed the Ovčara massacre were indeed Serbs - however, they were not part of the JNA, but actually separate radical chetnik,
44 ORDFan : Wow, had no idea Eurofighters were so expensive!! Roughly 90m Euro!?!? I mean at the point the Saab Gripen looks way more economical. Hell, I'm sure
45 TripleDelta : As far as I've been given to understand, should Croatia opt for the EF, the aircraft unit price would be significantly lower - but I was not told exa
46 Post contains links and images FRAspotter : Agree... So Croatia couldn't find SOMETHING that they could use out of all this? View Large View MediumPhoto © Michael Vaeremans
47 TripleDelta : Both options had been offered during the fighter competition, with the former eventually being dropped (or at least not mentioned anymore). The latte
48 ORDFan : I was being a tad bit facetious in my comments, but you make some excellent points. Politically and militarily-speaking, obviously Euro-built aircraf
49 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Another offer.....this time, F-4s from Germany..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...n-phantoms-to-replace-mig-21s.html Quote: "Germany has offe
50 Post contains images TripleDelta : As per the local news, the CroAF's operational -21s are generally 1975-78 vintage (though there are a couple from the early 80s lying around, but the
51 Post contains images sasd209 : The F-4's would bring a nice capability in the AMRAAM's that it is fitted to utilise, but is a BVR missile needed for the 'air policing' mission that
52 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : According to Wiki, the first F-4Fs were delivered to the Luftwaffe in '75-'76. A pity that the RAF do not intend to resell the Tornado F3s they're re
53 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Images from the DB..... However, their variable wing geometry and complexity will be expensive operation and maintenance liabilities.
54 Post contains images TripleDelta : It too is an excellent and very capable aircraft - but as an interim type for the CroAF it still suffers from some of the same "problems" that plague
55 11Bravo : Tornados, F-16s, F-18s ?? Really, the Croatian AF needs such aircraft? For what? If I were Croatian, I would be very angry if the government spent its
56 Post contains images TripleDelta : The key issue here is air policing - and given the size of Croatia, you need something that can climb quickly and still be able to carry a missile or
57 F27Friendship : I really think those bisons ought to be a good interim solution. As with many temporary solutions, they later may become permanent.
58 TGIF : If air policing is the task, would a sub/transonic trainer really do the job? Intercepting incoming aircrafts in time might be difficult if you lack g
59 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : The KAI T-50 is claimed to be capable of supersonic flight with a touted top speed of 1.4-1.5 Mach. Four prototype F/A-50 fighter attack variants are
60 L410Turbolet : Why do you put so mch emphasis on the "safety" of a twin engine when countries with a very similar geographic profile to that of Croatia, namely Norw
61 TripleDelta : For two main reasons: firstly, while the countries you've mentioned do have significantly longer coastlines than Croatia, they do not have nearly as
62 TripleDelta : A few more details on this have surfaced recently (no doubt spurred by the ASDA Defense Exhibition currently "in progress" at Split): though nothing
63 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : This BBC News article talks precisely of such arrangements - as you also had in Reply 47..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11888443 Quote: "Pra
64 TGIF : The F/A-50 could perhaps do the job since it is not classified a sub/transonic trainer. Personally, I'd still go for a real fighter though.
65 Post contains images TripleDelta : Indeed; fresh reports from the morning newspaper state that, in response to the German offer, SAAB too is willing to donate a couple of older Gripens
66 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Assuming it's not an April 1st prank, how useful would two old frames be? Both must be part of the 66 JAS-39A/Bs they had been trying to dispose of f
67 ThePointblank : How about the UAE Mirage 2000's? Or even French examples for that matter...
68 Post contains images TripleDelta : I meant "a couple" as an undefined smaller number - presumably in the 8-12 range - rather than just two aircraft . I'd heard rumors last year that th
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Croatian AF To Possibly Stick With The MiG-21?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Croatian AF Fighter Competition: The Plot Thickens posted Mon Sep 10 2007 21:50:02 by TripleDelta
First To Fly The PC-21 - Singapore Air Force posted Fri Nov 3 2006 18:05:15 by Airimages
JSF's Role With The AF, Navy, Marines And UK posted Fri Apr 12 2002 00:18:32 by STT757
Croatia To Join SAC And The C-17 Fleet? posted Fri Jul 30 2010 00:25:18 by tripledelta
Once "Unthinkable" Are Cuts To US DOD On The Way? posted Fri Jul 9 2010 15:11:01 by Lumberton
Riat 2010... Not Looking Good? (Mig-21 Dropped) posted Mon Jun 21 2010 10:47:02 by l33roy94
IAF C-130Js To Be Equipped With Tcas posted Sat Feb 14 2009 16:47:42 by KC135TopBoom
USN Aircrafts That Saw Service With The Usaf (and posted Tue Feb 10 2009 00:21:18 by Steman
What Is The Future Of The Mig Design Bureau posted Tue Nov 11 2008 17:59:11 by Alberchico
Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF? posted Wed Oct 29 2008 04:10:45 by BBaldwin09
First To Fly The PC-21 - Singapore Air Force posted Fri Nov 3 2006 18:05:15 by Airimages
JSF's Role With The AF, Navy, Marines And UK posted Fri Apr 12 2002 00:18:32 by STT757
Mig-21 & A4 Most Influential Fighter Designs? posted Fri Feb 4 2011 12:04:40 by faro
Croatia To Join SAC And The C-17 Fleet? posted Fri Jul 30 2010 00:25:18 by tripledelta
Once "Unthinkable" Are Cuts To US DOD On The Way? posted Fri Jul 9 2010 15:11:01 by Lumberton
Riat 2010... Not Looking Good? (Mig-21 Dropped) posted Mon Jun 21 2010 10:47:02 by l33roy94
IAF C-130Js To Be Equipped With Tcas posted Sat Feb 14 2009 16:47:42 by KC135TopBoom
USN Aircrafts That Saw Service With The Usaf (and posted Tue Feb 10 2009 00:21:18 by Steman

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format