Sponsor Message:
Military Aviation & Space Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya  
User currently offlineJana From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Sep 2009, 110 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 17546 times:

A Royal Netherlands Navy Lynx helicopter, stationed on the H.M. Tromp fregat, failed in an evacuation attemp in Libya last Sunday. The helicopter went to Sirte (Libya) to evacuate Dutch citizens but was caputered by Khadaffi's forces. Three Dutch marines are taken hostage, the Lynx is in Libya's hands. The latest news is that here was no air support for the Lynx and so it seems that it fully operated in its own... Maybe this giant error will cost the Dutch Minister of Defence his job, my thoughts...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bastiaan Smeets



[Edited 2011-03-03 00:17:19]

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 17419 times:

From a judicial stand point, they violated Libyan airspace and were detained for that reason.


I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17396 times:

Here is a BBC article about the incident: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12633415

First of all it is nice to see the Dutch government finally growing a set of balls and do something to get the last Dutch citizens out of the country. Even though it is causing a political nightmare.

That said there would have been hell to pay if they sat there and did nothing, so they had to do something, too bad it went belly up.

Quoting Jana (Thread starter):
The latest news is that here was no air support for the Lynx and so it seems that it fully operated in its own...

They probably had air support from the ship but once you are on the ground you are on your own. The ship can shoot down a seagull 500 miles away but some armed men on the ground right next to friendlies is a bit more tricky.

With the massive budget cuts the Dutch Armed Forces are having to deal with there probably isn't any money left to send a second ship with another helicopter to give air born support. (maybe the Dutch government will now figure out that a shoe string budged military is pretty much useless)

Anyway kudos to the crew for trying this and I hope they are doing well and find their way back to the ship soon.

As far as the helicopter goes, they are going to be replaced anyway and scrapping them will cost money so this is a cheaper way of getting writ of them. 

This will be the Lynx replacement.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lennart Batenburg



User currently onlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 17386 times:

The Dutch prime minister has confirmed this news, and that this mission was approved by his government.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 1):
From a judicial stand point, they violated Libyan airspace and were detained for that reason.

Very true, the word 'hostage' is premature. But they could become hostages in case of further Western action.

Quoting Jana (Thread starter):


[quote=Jana,reply=0]The latest news is that here was no air support for the Lynx and so it seems that it fully operated in its own...

What kind of air support did you have in mind?

Quoting Jana (Thread starter):
Maybe this giant error will cost the Dutch Minister of Defence his job, my thoughts...

Why? I'd say either the refugees didn't keep their mouth shut, or Western intelligence in general wasn't up to date with the situation in Sirte.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26021 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 16910 times:

Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 16817 times:

Here is my theory:

-The Dutch government has had quite close diplomatic ties with Libya since the Afriqiyah crash in Tripoli last year (where most passengers who died where Dutch nationals).

-The Royal Netherlands Air Force has airlifted out Dutch nationals with a KDC-10 and C-130 at at least two occasions, from Tripoli, in cooperation with the Libyan government.

-The "clandestine" evacuations performed by the Royal Air Force and German Air Force (among others), took place in the eastern part of Libya, which is more or less under rebel control (at least no longer by the government in Tripoli), in the desert (thus remote) with multiple large transport aircraft, carrying platoons of special forces to secure the LZ.

There is no way, that the Royal Netherlands Navy, would send a single Lynx Helicopter with only the basic crew (2 pilots and 1 gunner), without any marines, in the middle of Sirte (a large urban area), which is the home town of Ghadaffi and thus a government stronghold, to pick up just 2 individuals, had they not received clearance from the Lybian authorities (hence the description consular evacuation operation).

Had they not received clearance from the Lybian authorities,

-Sirte would have been considered too risky to go to in the first place.

-If for whatever reason they were ordered to go to Sirte anyway, they would have gone with at least a platoon of marines to secure the LZ as is the normal operational procedure when operating a chopper in hostile environment, probably with additional air support provided by another chopper (perhaps from another allied nation).

What I fear that has happened is a complete mis-calculation by Dutch diplomacy, who were thinking they could still rely on their personal contacts with the Libyan authorities, while other European/NATO countries were already evacuating without permission their citizens, and are openly discussing air strikes on Libyia and/or a no-fly zone.

I believe the Dutch government has received the clearance to pick up the 2 individuals per chopper, where the Libyian government has decided to use it as a trap, since it would be quite a good moment to "capture" a foreign military chopper and crew for:

-internal propaganda
-collateral when foreign intervention is becoming more likely by the hour

just my humble opinion..


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 16781 times:

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):
I believe the Dutch government has received the clearance to pick up the 2 individuals per chopper, where the Libyian government has decided to use it as a trap, since it would be quite a good moment to "capture" a foreign military chopper and crew for:

-internal propaganda
-collateral when foreign intervention is becoming more likely by the hour

just my humble opinion..

My guess is you are right.


User currently onlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16715 times:

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):

Interesting analysis. I didn't consider that Sirt was fully under government control.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 16617 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.

Britain and Germany (and I think France as well) did exactly the same. All of them secretly evacuated their people that were still in Libya, only where they wise enough to land at some unnamed strips in eastern Libya, a region controlled by the rebels.
Besides, I don't think the American (and Italian?) ships are not only waiting for better weather but also for an official admission to land.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 16417 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 8):
Britain and Germany (and I think France as well) did exactly the same. All of them secretly evacuated their people that were still in Libya, only where they wise enough to land at some unnamed strips in eastern Libya, a region controlled by the rebels.
Besides, I don't think the American (and Italian?) ships are not only waiting for better weather but also for an official admission to land.

The assault ship the US sent is full of V-22's which are perfect for the mission my guess is your right once they get in position they will be flying soon.


User currently offlinedalce From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1712 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16388 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.

Something US marines have been doing for the past couple of decades all over the world....
If you don't know the facts, don't justice.
It appears to be a stupid action, agree, but what were circumstances, was there clearance, were agreements made. Did the Lynx go tech...( could be, we don't know. I only know they are old and worn)
There are so many factors we can't judge, so don't please. I just hope the guys will come back in good health.



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16263 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 7):
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):

Interesting analysis. I didn't consider that Sirt was fully under government control.

Sirt is AFAIK the hometown of the Ghadaffi clan and he seems to have strong following there (remember that tribal affiliations are still quite important in Libya).

Jan


User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1929 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 16239 times:

Word is the people that needed airlifting out were western intelligence operators and that evacuation was needed quickly. Why else send a helicopter if the Libyan governement is assisting foreigners to leave the country (as has been done with these two people)?

There's more to this case, as this happened already on Sunday, but only came out on Wednesday-evening, which happened to be an election night. The government will be asked if she kept it quiet for electorial reasons, rather than for the safety of the airmen. Would the rescue be succesfull it would be nice PR for the elections, now it wasn't, so people are suggesting that's why it was kept quiet.

Now, normally I'll use my tinfoil hat for this kind of stories, and I use it this time as well, but I do feel it needs a proper investigation when the pilots are safely back home.

Cheers!   



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently onlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15793 times:

If the Libyan government agreed to this trip, the Dutch aren't saying so. Maltese airline Medavia still runs a daily flight into Sirte... It's a strange story.

The rendezvous point was the beach. Two of the Lynx crew are female. This is the airframe involved.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Jong




The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 15729 times:

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 1):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):



Let's be realistic...

Gaddafi has committed numerous acts of war against the West since 1972. Therefore Libyan sovereignty became fair game a long time ago. That being said, the bottom line: each nation has the right to protect it's citizens from crimes against humanity. As I pointed out before, the international community is taking a huge risk by evacuating their citizens without sufficient protection. It it obvious from his past history that Gaddafi will not hesitate to shoot down planes and capture, and most likely execute, foriegn nationals. The Libyan regieme will continue to be a menace to the international community unless Gaddafi and Co. are killed or dragged all the way to the Hauge for trial.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15315 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):

My guess is you are right.

My guess he is talking claptrap. If the Libyans DID agree on this mission and used it as a trap, there would be no reason for the Dutch government to be silent about it. They would have a great case at the UN. The fact that they remain totally silent and try to solve things diplomatically, tells me they damn well realize they screwed up.



Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15306 times:

IMO executions would be kinda dumb.

Certainly unless/until they win this fight.


User currently onlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3994 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 15271 times:

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 15):

I agree that this theory is unlikely now, but then it was just a theory.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1929 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 15128 times:

Dutch top-diplomat is to arrive today in Tripoli to negotiate the release of the captured helicopter crew... Curious what the price will be? A room with a view in Scheveningen-prison for our friend Khadaffi?  

Cheers!   



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15085 times:

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 18):
Curious what the price will be?

It should be 'hand the crew and helo over, or we are going to destroy every place you and your mercs may be hiding. Oh btw our airforce and 5 000 troops are already on the way.'


User currently offlineLifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1929 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 15048 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 19):
It should be 'hand the crew and helo over, or we are going to destroy every place you and your mercs may be hiding. Oh btw our airforce and 5 000 troops are already on the way.'

I agree, but I don't see that happening.

Cheers!   



Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 14990 times:

Quoting dalce (Reply 10):
Something US marines have been doing for the past couple of decades all over the world....
If you don't know the facts, don't justice.
It appears to be a stupid action, agree, but what were circumstances, was there clearance, were agreements made. Did the Lynx go tech...( could be, we don't know. I only know they are old and worn)
There are so many factors we can't judge, so don't please. I just hope the guys will come back in good health.

I agree we have been doing it for years like the US the Dutch have the right to keep their citizens safe and take them out of harms way no matter where they are at.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13240 posts, RR: 77
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 14966 times:

Well at least they were on a properly defined mission, unlike last weekend's ill thought out attempt to hook up with rebel leaders with British 'Diplomatic Staff' (That's MI6 really).
Needing an escort of Special Forces - who were, before the Libya crisis are busier than at any time since WW2 as it is.
Without telling who they were to meet with, coming in on a bloody great helicopter - who the rebels might well assume was one of Gadaffi's. When they could have left HMS York down the gangplank.
Luckily the SF guys showed commendable restraint preventing something much worse than a few days detention.
Sent as they were on a fools errand - or rather sent by fools. This would have been sanctioned from the very top.

They returned via HMS Cumberland from Libya.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 14899 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

The Dutch are still OK (see 1834).


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 14700 times:

Eventhough I now think my theory is probably not what has happened, making it public will not help one bit (more so since the Libyian delegation at the UN has already changed sides). Dutch diplomacy is silent diplomacy.

But I have to agree, it now really seems someone in the Dutch government or MoD or even at the operational command level did something really, really stupid. I just hope and pray our people get home soon.


25 EPA001 : According to the Libyan State TV station the Dutch military personnel taken captive during the incident are to be released today. Dutch TV reports at
26 Bennett123 : According to the BBC link, the Dutch are going home, (see 1608, 1743, 1950 and 2007). However, the Lynx is staying in Libya for now.
27 Post contains images dalce : perhaps we get their Mirages now
28 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Dutch marines arrived at 5 a.m. in Athens, flown in by a C-130 of the Greek Air Force. They are being debriefed in Athens and will continue home to Th
29 GDB : Good to know they are out of there.
30 Post contains links F27Friendship : a great relief! however, here some audio recordings which suggest the lynx had made several pick-ups before they were caught: http://www.dumpert.nl/me
31 ptrjong : I guess few people still bother about this, but the Dutch govt sent a report to parliament, and it seems Jana in post #1 was correct after all - lots
32 Severnaya : Yeah and rumor is that still many things aren't in the report that should have been in it, and then i'm referring to the TV broadcast last night (MAR
33 hercppmx : The aircraft with probably be tracked by intel, and taken out by an air strike, equipment can be replaced as long as the personnel are okay and safe
34 ptrjong : Maybe, or maybe not.
35 hercppmx : You would never want your own weapons system used against you, or against your allies, or innocent civilians.
36 ptrjong : [quote=hercppmx,reply=35][/ Intelligence ops and air strikes are known to fail sometimes, that's what I meant.
37 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Agreed. There are still a lot of questions to be answered by the cabinet. They will probably do so, but not in public in parliament, but probably in
38 hercppmx : Sort of like the operation that got the Helo and Personnel there in the first place?
39 ptrjong : That operation was just stupid, apparently, as I've already pointed out. I've no idea why you are arguing with me. I hope that the Allies manage to d
40 hercppmx : That last comment was suppose to be more of a joke, I wasn't trying to argue there. As someone who just got out of the military I'm well aware that th
41 Post contains images ptrjong : OK, cheers
42 notaxonrotax : Any news on the Lynx? No Tax On Rotax
43 ptrjong : Dutch news media report the Lynx landed hundreds of metres off the designated spot, right in front of Khadafi's local 'palace'. LOL.
44 notaxonrotax : Has this Lynx been destroyed, or is she flying (low level?) missions for Gadaffi & Co? No Tax On Rotax
45 ptrjong : A newspaper published a satellite photo, it's simply still at the beach.
46 notaxonrotax : Has the Lynx been recovered? Has she been used by Gadaffi? Would the Dutch want their chopper back? No Tax On Rotax
47 Post contains images LifelinerOne : No, the helicopter has not been recovered, or used since it's landing on the beach. The Lynx won't be coming back home either, we have given up on it
48 ptrjong : So it's still on that beach? Says who? With the NH-90s not fititng in the ships and other minor problems, why not recover it if possible.[Edited 2011-
49 Post contains images ptrjong : They're supposedly bombing Sirte now, maybe Khadaffi will escape in our Lynx
50 Post contains images LifelinerOne : I think Hillen has said that the Lynx is considered a write-off for us taxpayers... I don't know, but sattelite-pictures from May are showing the Lyn
51 notaxonrotax : How come they were destroyed? And is it really that hard to replace batteries? Is it a special kind? No Tax On Rotax
52 Post contains images BrouAviation : It would make a great scene of the Last Flight of the Phoenix, I for certain would come to see it land again at De Kooy!
53 notaxonrotax : Oh oh, fighting is picking up in the Sirte area, just this instant……….perhaps we´ll see this gracious machine somewhere on the news soon. No Ta
54 Post contains links Bennett123 : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14999390 The fight has now moved to Sabha. Still no sign of the Lynx.
55 notaxonrotax : I am watching CNN quite regularly…………no updates on the poor Lynx yet. Anybody know anymore? No Tax On Rotax
56 ptrjong : Well, any update would hardly be Breaking News on CNN.
57 notaxonrotax : No, I realize that. I was actually referring to the video footage they air……….she may appear in there at some stage. No Tax On Rotax
58 notaxonrotax : Okay, A few weeks down the line now, the beaches in Sirte are "clear", so where's the poor Lynx, and what will happen to her? No Tax On Rotax
59 petertenthije : Hope you don't mind me asking, but why are you so bothered about it that you keep asking? I mean, the entire Lynx fleet was written off years ago. The
60 chuchoteur : ... actually, I'm interested to know its fate too. Even though it's probably no use as a helicopter now, that airframe could turn up as quite a design
61 bennett123 : I did wounder if had had been used by the former regime. However, iirc, it was not airworthy, in which case, I suspect that petertenthije is correct.
62 Post contains links notaxonrotax : Dutch press reports Dutch journalists found her!! The rebels painted 217 on her…….the date the revolution began. Guess what, according to AD-newsp
63 chuchoteur : Hmh would have been nice if they'd put a photo of her... I guess there are still some structural parts that could be worth something as spares. Would
64 Post contains links petertenthije : Video of the Lynx as it is now. As I already said, no longer a helicopter but a lawn ornament. http://www.rtl.nl/xl/#/u/b968bb8a-7790-4f06-b417-1fe8b8
65 bennett123 : Sadly, it will never fly again. If the NL needs another Lynx, then it would be best to buy one from the UK.
66 canoecarrier : For some reason I couldn't get that video to play other than the first .25 seconds with the reporter in the foreground. Perhaps the new Libyan govern
67 notaxonrotax : A Dutch political party apparently wants to put this chopper on display, somewhere in the mighty city of The Hague. Where can I tick the "Yes"-box ple
68 747classic : A Heavy Maintenance Visit (HMV) could bring here back in flying condition. No major structural damage is visible, only a lot of sand. The damaged or m
69 Post contains links bennett123 : http://uk.ask.com/wiki/NH-90?qsrc=3044 It looks as if by the time this was all done that the NH90 will have arrived.
70 Post contains links notaxonrotax : http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/7524/Opstand-...og-altijd-op-strand-in-Libie.dhtml Sorry, only in Dutch. She is still sitting on the beach, and the government
71 BuyantUkhaa : They really don't have anything better to do than to wine about an old helicopter? Most likely it was paid off already. You don't need to be a genius
72 Post contains images 747classic : The Dutch Lynx is going back home . This Monday she is transported to Tripoli. Preparation will be made for a transport to the Netherlands by sea. Cop
73 9MMPQ : They should have bombed it while it was still sitting on the beach in Lybia. At least it would have saved us the hassle & the cost of transport. T
74 chuchoteur : These will be the most expensive spare parts we have ever sourced ... not really. It'll fit in a container and shipping costs to the netherlands from
75 9MMPQ : Normally i would agree with you but the Lynx is on the way out of service. There are no urgent shortfalls or requirements for us to need this Lynx bac
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Military aviation related posts only!
  • Not military related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Predator And Other UAVs In Denver Now posted Thu Aug 26 2010 11:46:57 by DLPMMM
Dutch F-16s And KC-10 At Lajes posted Sun Jul 3 2005 19:06:31 by LPLAspotter
Blue Angels Have 2 Marines Flying In Demo posted Mon Feb 9 2004 18:25:42 by Maiznblu_757
2002 Air And Sea Show In FLL posted Sun Apr 14 2002 00:45:15 by Mirrodie
Lynx Helicopter In Boca Raton posted Tue Jun 8 2010 07:01:17 by mffoda
A-10 And The US Marines posted Sat Mar 29 2008 19:25:44 by Red329
Dutch F-16 Down In Afghanistan posted Fri Sep 1 2006 11:18:07 by Ptrjong
CH47s And A-10s In East PA: What's Up? posted Tue Jun 6 2006 22:01:22 by Airwave
RAF L1011s And VC10 In PHX posted Tue Aug 9 2005 03:28:46 by 4holer
Difference In CH-47 And MH-47? posted Sat Jul 2 2005 00:30:44 by Bushpilot

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format