Jana From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Sep 2009, 110 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15645 times:
A Royal Netherlands Navy Lynx helicopter, stationed on the H.M. Tromp fregat, failed in an evacuation attemp in Libya last Sunday. The helicopter went to Sirte (Libya) to evacuate Dutch citizens but was caputered by Khadaffi's forces. Three Dutch marines are taken hostage, the Lynx is in Libya's hands. The latest news is that here was no air support for the Lynx and so it seems that it fully operated in its own... Maybe this giant error will cost the Dutch Minister of Defence his job, my thoughts...
First of all it is nice to see the Dutch government finally growing a set of balls and do something to get the last Dutch citizens out of the country. Even though it is causing a political nightmare.
That said there would have been hell to pay if they sat there and did nothing, so they had to do something, too bad it went belly up.
Quoting Jana (Thread starter): The latest news is that here was no air support for the Lynx and so it seems that it fully operated in its own...
They probably had air support from the ship but once you are on the ground you are on your own. The ship can shoot down a seagull 500 miles away but some armed men on the ground right next to friendlies is a bit more tricky.
With the massive budget cuts the Dutch Armed Forces are having to deal with there probably isn't any money left to send a second ship with another helicopter to give air born support. (maybe the Dutch government will now figure out that a shoe string budged military is pretty much useless)
Anyway kudos to the crew for trying this and I hope they are doing well and find their way back to the ship soon.
As far as the helicopter goes, they are going to be replaced anyway and scrapping them will cost money so this is a cheaper way of getting writ of them.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22023 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 15009 times:
Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1113 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14916 times:
Here is my theory:
-The Dutch government has had quite close diplomatic ties with Libya since the Afriqiyah crash in Tripoli last year (where most passengers who died where Dutch nationals).
-The Royal Netherlands Air Force has airlifted out Dutch nationals with a KDC-10 and C-130 at at least two occasions, from Tripoli, in cooperation with the Libyan government.
-The "clandestine" evacuations performed by the Royal Air Force and German Air Force (among others), took place in the eastern part of Libya, which is more or less under rebel control (at least no longer by the government in Tripoli), in the desert (thus remote) with multiple large transport aircraft, carrying platoons of special forces to secure the LZ.
There is no way, that the Royal Netherlands Navy, would send a single Lynx Helicopter with only the basic crew (2 pilots and 1 gunner), without any marines, in the middle of Sirte (a large urban area), which is the home town of Ghadaffi and thus a government stronghold, to pick up just 2 individuals, had they not received clearance from the Lybian authorities (hence the description consular evacuation operation).
Had they not received clearance from the Lybian authorities,
-Sirte would have been considered too risky to go to in the first place.
-If for whatever reason they were ordered to go to Sirte anyway, they would have gone with at least a platoon of marines to secure the LZ as is the normal operational procedure when operating a chopper in hostile environment, probably with additional air support provided by another chopper (perhaps from another allied nation).
What I fear that has happened is a complete mis-calculation by Dutch diplomacy, who were thinking they could still rely on their personal contacts with the Libyan authorities, while other European/NATO countries were already evacuating without permission their citizens, and are openly discussing air strikes on Libyia and/or a no-fly zone.
I believe the Dutch government has received the clearance to pick up the 2 individuals per chopper, where the Libyian government has decided to use it as a trap, since it would be quite a good moment to "capture" a foreign military chopper and crew for:
-internal propaganda
-collateral when foreign intervention is becoming more likely by the hour
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11705 posts, RR: 52 Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14880 times:
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5): I believe the Dutch government has received the clearance to pick up the 2 individuals per chopper, where the Libyian government has decided to use it as a trap, since it would be quite a good moment to "capture" a foreign military chopper and crew for:
-internal propaganda
-collateral when foreign intervention is becoming more likely by the hour
NoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7796 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 14716 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4): Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.
Britain and Germany (and I think France as well) did exactly the same. All of them secretly evacuated their people that were still in Libya, only where they wise enough to land at some unnamed strips in eastern Libya, a region controlled by the rebels.
Besides, I don't think the American (and Italian?) ships are not only waiting for better weather but also for an official admission to land.
wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14516 times:
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 8): Britain and Germany (and I think France as well) did exactly the same. All of them secretly evacuated their people that were still in Libya, only where they wise enough to land at some unnamed strips in eastern Libya, a region controlled by the rebels.
Besides, I don't think the American (and Italian?) ships are not only waiting for better weather but also for an official admission to land.
The assault ship the US sent is full of V-22's which are perfect for the mission my guess is your right once they get in position they will be flying soon.
dalce From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1581 posts, RR: 7 Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14487 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4): Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.
Something US marines have been doing for the past couple of decades all over the world....
If you don't know the facts, don't justice.
It appears to be a stupid action, agree, but what were circumstances, was there clearance, were agreements made. Did the Lynx go tech...( could be, we don't know. I only know they are old and worn)
There are so many factors we can't judge, so don't please. I just hope the guys will come back in good health.
flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,AB6. Next flights AMS-ZRH-AMS on
Interesting analysis. I didn't consider that Sirt was fully under government control.
Sirt is AFAIK the hometown of the Ghadaffi clan and he seems to have strong following there (remember that tribal affiliations are still quite important in Libya).
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 14338 times:
Word is the people that needed airlifting out were western intelligence operators and that evacuation was needed quickly. Why else send a helicopter if the Libyan governement is assisting foreigners to leave the country (as has been done with these two people)?
There's more to this case, as this happened already on Sunday, but only came out on Wednesday-evening, which happened to be an election night. The government will be asked if she kept it quiet for electorial reasons, rather than for the safety of the airmen. Would the rescue be succesfull it would be nice PR for the elections, now it wasn't, so people are suggesting that's why it was kept quiet.
Now, normally I'll use my tinfoil hat for this kind of stories, and I use it this time as well, but I do feel it needs a proper investigation when the pilots are safely back home.
ptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3766 posts, RR: 20 Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13892 times:
If the Libyan government agreed to this trip, the Dutch aren't saying so. Maltese airline Medavia still runs a daily flight into Sirte... It's a strange story.
The rendezvous point was the beach. Two of the Lynx crew are female. This is the airframe involved.
Gaddafi has committed numerous acts of war against the West since 1972. Therefore Libyan sovereignty became fair game a long time ago. That being said, the bottom line: each nation has the right to protect it's citizens from crimes against humanity. As I pointed out before, the international community is taking a huge risk by evacuating their citizens without sufficient protection. It it obvious from his past history that Gaddafi will not hesitate to shoot down planes and capture, and most likely execute, foriegn nationals. The Libyan regieme will continue to be a menace to the international community unless Gaddafi and Co. are killed or dragged all the way to the Hauge for trial.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
My guess he is talking claptrap. If the Libyans DID agree on this mission and used it as a trap, there would be no reason for the Dutch government to be silent about it. They would have a great case at the UN. The fact that they remain totally silent and try to solve things diplomatically, tells me they damn well realize they screwed up.
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
Bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6352 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 13405 times:
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 13227 times:
Dutch top-diplomat is to arrive today in Tripoli to negotiate the release of the captured helicopter crew... Curious what the price will be? A room with a view in Scheveningen-prison for our friend Khadaffi?
It should be 'hand the crew and helo over, or we are going to destroy every place you and your mercs may be hiding. Oh btw our airforce and 5 000 troops are already on the way.'
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 13147 times:
Quoting Oroka (Reply 19): It should be 'hand the crew and helo over, or we are going to destroy every place you and your mercs may be hiding. Oh btw our airforce and 5 000 troops are already on the way.'
wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 13089 times:
Quoting dalce (Reply 10): Something US marines have been doing for the past couple of decades all over the world....
If you don't know the facts, don't justice.
It appears to be a stupid action, agree, but what were circumstances, was there clearance, were agreements made. Did the Lynx go tech...( could be, we don't know. I only know they are old and worn)
There are so many factors we can't judge, so don't please. I just hope the guys will come back in good health.
I agree we have been doing it for years like the US the Dutch have the right to keep their citizens safe and take them out of harms way no matter where they are at.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 12701 posts, RR: 80 Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13065 times:
Well at least they were on a properly defined mission, unlike last weekend's ill thought out attempt to hook up with rebel leaders with British 'Diplomatic Staff' (That's MI6 really).
Needing an escort of Special Forces - who were, before the Libya crisis are busier than at any time since WW2 as it is.
Without telling who they were to meet with, coming in on a bloody great helicopter - who the rebels might well assume was one of Gadaffi's. When they could have left HMS York down the gangplank.
Luckily the SF guys showed commendable restraint preventing something much worse than a few days detention.
Sent as they were on a fools errand - or rather sent by fools. This would have been sanctioned from the very top.
Bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6352 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12998 times:
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1113 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 12799 times:
Eventhough I now think my theory is probably not what has happened, making it public will not help one bit (more so since the Libyian delegation at the UN has already changed sides). Dutch diplomacy is silent diplomacy.
But I have to agree, it now really seems someone in the Dutch government or MoD or even at the operational command level did something really, really stupid. I just hope and pray our people get home soon.
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 3582 posts, RR: 36 Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12826 times:
According to the Libyan State TV station the Dutch military personnel taken captive during the incident are to be released today. Dutch TV reports at present that the Dutch State Department has not yet confirmed this, though many media stations are reporting that this information is quite reliable.
Edit at 18:57 hours European Time: The son of Khadaffi has now openly confirmed this news. The handover could take place still today.
This was just broadcasted in a special extra news broadcast on Dutch television.
Bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6352 posts, RR: 1 Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12742 times:
According to the BBC link, the Dutch are going home, (see 1608, 1743, 1950 and 2007).
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12940 times:
Dutch marines arrived at 5 a.m. in Athens, flown in by a C-130 of the Greek Air Force. They are being debriefed in Athens and will continue home to The Netherlands probably tomorrow.
According to our Minister of Foreign Affairs, no money was paid and no promises were made to the regime. We got help from Maltese and Greek officials during the negotiations. Now that the marines are safe, an investigation will start on how this could have happened, however not everything will be made public due to the interest to our national security. A lot of information will be shared with our intelligence committee in parliament.
ptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3766 posts, RR: 20 Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12259 times:
I guess few people still bother about this, but the Dutch govt sent a report to parliament, and it seems Jana in post #1 was correct after all - lots of silly errors seem to have been made. While no permission was obtained, the flight was planned with poor intelligence and secrecy, and its urgency remains doutbful. It also seems that the helicopter crew still landed even though there were more people waiting on the beach than there should have been.
Well, I just hope we won't see the Lynx in action with Gaddafi's forces.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
Severnaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1390 posts, RR: 1 Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12248 times:
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 31): I guess few people still bother about this, but the Dutch govt sent a report to parliament
Yeah and rumor is that still many things aren't in the report that should have been in it, and then i'm referring to the TV broadcast last night (MAR21) from Nieuwsuur (NL2) which had an interview with the Swedish lady (a teacher).
Sorry but I don't buy it that they're sending a Lynx into hostile area to liberate a teacher from another country and a engineer. Those 2 persons could have easily gone back to Europe with the aircraft from Bosnia & Herzegovina.
I still think the other two persons were a cover-up for someone more important.
hercppmx From United States of America, joined May 2008, 194 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 11984 times:
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 31): Well, I just hope we won't see the Lynx in action with Gaddafi's forces
The aircraft with probably be tracked by intel, and taken out by an air strike, equipment can be replaced as long as the personnel are okay and safe then it is a good day.
hercppmx From United States of America, joined May 2008, 194 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11817 times:
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 11640 times:
Quoting Severnaya (Reply 32): I still think the other two persons were a cover-up for someone more important.
Agreed. There are still a lot of questions to be answered by the cabinet. They will probably do so, but not in public in parliament, but probably in the intelligence committee.
hercppmx From United States of America, joined May 2008, 194 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11609 times:
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 36): Intelligence ops and air strikes are known to fail sometimes, that's what I meant.
Sort of like the operation that got the Helo and Personnel there in the first place?
ptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3766 posts, RR: 20 Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11592 times:
Quoting hercppmx (Reply 38): Sort of like the operation that got the Helo and Personnel there in the first place?
That operation was just stupid, apparently, as I've already pointed out. I've no idea why you are arguing with me. I hope that the Allies manage to destroy the chopper if there's any indication that Khadafi might use it.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
hercppmx From United States of America, joined May 2008, 194 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 11601 times:
That last comment was suppose to be more of a joke, I wasn't trying to argue there. As someone who just got out of the military I'm well aware that things don't always go as planned.
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 8990 times:
Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 46): Has the Lynx been recovered? Has she been used by Gadaffi?
Would the Dutch want their chopper back?
No, the helicopter has not been recovered, or used since it's landing on the beach. The Lynx won't be coming back home either, we have given up on it. It's not worth the hassle.
I don't know, but sattelite-pictures from May are showing the Lynx still on the beach. Also, the Lynx has dead (read: destroyed) batteries, so can't be started up easily without replacement parts.
petertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3230 posts, RR: 13 Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6568 times:
Hope you don't mind me asking, but why are you so bothered about it that you keep asking? I mean, the entire Lynx fleet was written off years ago. The only reason they are still around, is because of delays with the replacement NH90 program. The helicopter was already iffy when it got abandoned 7 months ago. If the fighting did not finish it off, then looters and mother nature (salt/corrosion) certainly will have done so!
chuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 700 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6475 times:
... actually, I'm interested to know its fate too.
Even though it's probably no use as a helicopter now, that airframe could turn up as quite a design feature somewhere...
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2657 posts, RR: 12 Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6072 times:
Quoting petertenthije (Reply 64): Video of the Lynx as it is now. As I already said, no longer a helicopter but a lawn ornament.
For some reason I couldn't get that video to play other than the first .25 seconds with the reporter in the foreground. Perhaps the new Libyan government can put that on their new government building's lawn like the former regime leader used an A-4 Skyhawk as a propaganda tool in his compound.
notaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 371 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5802 times:
A Dutch political party apparently wants to put this chopper on display, somewhere in the mighty city of The Hague.
Where can I tick the "Yes"-box please?
Great idea, instead of putting some hideous "art" on some roundabout--> display a bit of real life aviation history.
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Als vader voorlicht, kan je merken dat hij achter ligt.
747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 1779 posts, RR: 11 Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5634 times:
A Heavy Maintenance Visit (HMV) could bring here back in flying condition. No major structural damage is visible, only a lot of sand. The damaged or missing parts can be repaired or replaced.
The main question however is :
Are the costs for transportation back to the Netherlands plus the HMV lower than the total cost of a (secondhand) replacement aircraft (if needed).
BuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2777 posts, RR: 3 Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3697 times:
Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 70): She is still sitting on the beach, and the government still want her back from Libya!
They really don't have anything better to do than to wine about an old helicopter? Most likely it was paid off already. You don't need to be a genius to figure out that if you use equipment in a war zone, you may lose it. Tough luck. At least everyone made it home safely, that's the main thing.
747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 1779 posts, RR: 11 Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3184 times:
The Dutch Lynx is going back home .
This Monday she is transported to Tripoli. Preparation will be made for a transport to the Netherlands by sea.
Copyright : Dutch MOD.
9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 243 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2865 times:
They should have bombed it while it was still sitting on the beach in Lybia. At least it would have saved us the hassle & the cost of transport.
These will be the most expensive spare parts we have ever sourced. There's really nothing else to gain. You don't really believe there is a need to return this one to flying standards ?
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
chuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 700 posts, RR: 0 Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2799 times:
These will be the most expensive spare parts we have ever sourced
... not really. It'll fit in a container and shipping costs to the netherlands from north africa are quite reasonable.
lots of structural spares to be had from that frame...
9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 243 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
Normally i would agree with you but the Lynx is on the way out of service. There are no urgent shortfalls or requirements for us to need this Lynx back in the air again while officials have already admitted it will be written off. Then there's still the current pool of spares, not to mention the possibility of taking them of those that we will be parking as further maintenance requirements come up.
Adding it all up, why would you go to the trouble & expense to get it shipped back ?
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
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