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Japan's New F-X RFP  
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4796 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6010 times:

Japan has formally issued an RFP for its F-X fighter competition.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...apan-launches-f-x-fighter-rfp.html

Quote:
"Japan has formally launched its F-X fighter competition by sending a request for proposals to three potential bidders.

Boeing and Lockheed Martin have confirmed a US government representative has received Japan's RFP on behalf of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-35 Lightning II, respectively.

A UK representative is also understood to have picked up the RFP for a possible bid by the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Each bidder should receive a copy of the solicitation soon.

Japan has released the RFP just a few weeks after the country was hit by an earthquake, tsunami and nuclear crisis, leaving an estimated 26,000 people dead and public safety still at risk."



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This RFP is very specific in its choice of candidates. Notable by their absence are Boeing's Silent Eagle and Dassault's Rafale. More understandable is the non-inclusion of LockMart's Super Viper, MiG-35, Saab's Gripen NG, and Sukhoi's Su-35.

[Edited 2011-04-14 10:19:15]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5760 times:

I really expcted that Japan has other, more important problems in the moment.

User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

I'm a big fan of the Eurofighter Typhoon but does it have a good chance agains the Super Hornet or the F-35? Japan isn't known for buying weapons from European countries and if I were to hazard a guess, I'm inclined to believe this sale will go to the F-35, if for no other reason than the fact it represents the most current technology.


Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

I would think the F-35 would be the clear winner, being far more technologically advanced, as mentioned, and cheaper. (Assuming they are looking at the A model which is sub-$100m/per) The other two are just in there to drive down the cost of the JSF.

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 1):
I really expcted that Japan has other, more important problems in the moment.

I agree. They have more important things to take care of than a new fighter.


User currently offlinejwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5474 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 1):
I really expcted that Japan has other, more important problems in the moment.

Immediate concerns run for a few months to a year at most. Japan isn't Haiti that'll be holding up its hand, hoping the international community will keep feeding them forever because they're too lazy to clean up, rebuild, and grow their own food forever.

A new fighter is a 5-10 year program, no reason to start launching a tender now, the first responses won't be in on it for months to a year.

Now let the a.net tinfoil hatters complain about their favourite aircraft not being included, and how that's a "bad" decision.



I wish I were flying
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5457 times:

Quoting jwenting (Reply 5):
A new fighter is a 5-10 year program

I stronlgy believe the actual nuclear problems in japan will last much longer than 5-10 years...

And also will cost more money than all japanese fighter competitions of the last decades together.


User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5437 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 6):
I stronlgy believe the actual nuclear problems in japan will last much longer than 5-10 years...

That doesn't remove the fact that they need new weapons to defend themselves. The disaster that Japan suffered adds to their overall governmental concerns, but it's not the only one they have. Having said that, it's certain the disaster, its affects and the long term consequences are on the Japanese governments mind in a huge way and will remain so for some time to come. That government will, however, bring the nation back to a more normal way of life as soon as it possibly can and will, in the meantime, give thought to what the future holds and what future needs will be, socially, commercially and militarily.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5414 times:

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 7):
That doesn't remove the fact that they need new weapons to defend themselves

Against which country?

Russia and China which helped Japan a lot during their actual crisis...?


User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5160 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 8):
Against which country?

A possible threat coming from N. Korea?

I think it will depend on when they want the fighter...If they have enough time to wait (which I believe they do after the earth quake) the JSF might be the obvious winner.....while they could get F/A-18E/Fs or Eurofighters rather fast...



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2914 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 8):
Against which country?

Russia and China which helped Japan a lot during their actual crisis...?

Actually precisely China and Russia. China is flexing its muscle trying to retake territory in Japan's south (or did you forget the boats ramming coast guard vessels, causing a diplomatic incident last year) and Russia persists in flying Bears over and around Japan and has another territorial dispute.

Throw in North Korea, aging F-4s and F-15s and the loss of 20 F-2s in Sendai and you might actually have the need for new aircraft



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4954 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 10):
Throw in North Korea, aging F-4s and F-15s and the loss of 20 F-2s in Sendai and you might actually have the need for new aircraft

I do not doubt that new aircrafts are required, but why can´t japan just increase their existing types?

That should be enough for North Korea, China and Russia...


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2093 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4914 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 11):

I do not doubt that new aircrafts are required, but why can´t japan just increase their existing types?

Even with the existing problems, Japan is a relatively wealthy country with a small military.
So, having a small military means that the personnel they have require the best weapons available.

Would you send your sons and daughters in to battle with-out the best available weapon if you can afford it? (Even if it's just some Somali pirates  )

Quoting 328JET (Reply 8):
Russia and China which helped Japan a lot during their actual crisis...?

Purely for propaganda and business purposes, cultural animosity goes back centuries.

And competition for resources will not diminish any time soon.

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4911 times:

Quoting 328JET (Reply 11):
I do not doubt that new aircrafts are required, but why can´t japan just increase their existing types?

That should be enough for North Korea, China and Russia...

Well they want to replace their F-4s by 2015...and it seems like they have wanted to take a big step from the F-4 to the F-22 but the program was repeatedly delayed, partly because the government spent several years campaigning strenuously but unsuccessfully to get US permission to buy the F-22.....I think the F-35 is the winner if they could get it already by 2015 to replace the Phantoms...and the F-15s are to be replaced with F-35 by 2020....



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4823 times:

I'd strike the EuroFighter off the list right away. Wrong country of manufacturer for starters - unless previous Japanese buying habits have changed.

Super Hornet - seems to be the obvious safe choice.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4626 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 13):
I think the F-35 is the winner if they could get it already by 2015 to replace the Phantoms...and the F-15s are to be replaced with F-35 by 2020....

Given Russia's PAK-FA and China's J-20 in development, it would be wise for Japan to go for a stealth solution. However, with the recent natural disasters and the nuclear power plant problems, might Japan try a more pragmatic approach and also do what the Israelis are planning to?.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...s-as-hedge-against-jsf-delays.html

Quote:
"JERUSALEM --- Due to worries over F-35 delivery delays, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) is considering the purchase of some used F-15s from U.S. Air Force stocks.

The Israelis are purchasing a squadron of 20 F-35s which they agreed to buy last fall under a $2.75 billion deal. The Israeli F-35 acquisition is being financed through U.S. Foreign Military Financing (FMF) assistance, which comes to $3 billion annually.

But with the delivery of the F-35s now pushed back to late 2018 or beyond, the Israelis are seeking solutions to prevent the emergence of a capabilities gap."



.....Or despite skepticism, be the launch customer for the Silent Eagle?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
Given Russia's PAK-FA and China's J-20 in development, it would be wise for Japan to go for a stealth solution

Yup! This program was actually pushed forward for that reason... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...F-35-stealth-fighters-US-says.html

Makes me wonder....If there wasn't any PAK-FA nor J-20....the replacement of the Phantoms could have been "delayed" until later in this decade... and even more so after the earth quake.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
However, with the recent natural disasters and the nuclear power plant problems, might Japan try a more pragmatic approach and also do what the Israelis are planning to?.....

Well.....that could be an option too...although not ensuring them air superiority....but seeing how things are now...I'd spend the money in a move similar to this....although:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
.....Or despite skepticism, be the launch customer for the Silent Eagle?

This would be a good idea too...with the stealth features as internal weapons carriage...and radar absorbent material...I think it makes it as a 5th generation fighter doesn't it?

Btw....how bad is the tension between Japan - Russia/China/N. Korea? If there was a war between Japan and Russia...for instance...which one is the potential country who would "start" the conflict?

If they went for F-15SE....they'd be fine I think because the US has quite some bases there to keep the Russians/Chinese/N. Koreans away... 

But as mentioned above....I think they will go for the F-35....not only because the F-15SE is kind of near the price of a F-35...but also because it will ensure them they have air superiority especially against N. Korea....

So to compare F-15SE and F-35s prices...(Which I think might be a big factor in which aircraft they might go for)
F-15SE is ~22% cheaper than a F-35A
F-15SE is ~50% cheaper than a F-35B (Ok...the price in this case is quite a difference..) 
F-15SE is ~39% cheaper than a F-35C....

But of course....the price of the F-35 isn't fixed yet and it depends from order to order... Could Japan also get help from the US to finance the F-35 if they go for it?
I'd love to know the average difference operational costs between the above mentioned aircraft too....:D



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1595 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 3):
I would think the F-35 would be the clear winner, being far more technologically advanced as mentioned, and cheaper

The F-35 is not that far more technologically advanced over the Typhoon(apart RAM's). And sure not in every aspect and cheaper!   

Please stop hyperboling.

Back to the topic; Japan will go clearly for the F-35. The want at all costs a low RCS fighter even it has not great aerodynamic performance. They have often enough tried to buy F-22.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinehighlander0 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 17):
The want at all costs a low RCS fighter even it has not great aerodynamic performance

Or a low IR signature...


User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4284 times:

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 17):
Back to the topic; Japan will go clearly for the F-35. The want at all costs a low RCS fighter even it has not great aerodynamic performance. They have often enough tried to buy F-22.

I agree I think Japan will clearly go with the F-35 with US help. Although the eurofighter I think would also have to be in consideration. The Superhornet would be a good fit but they already have enough f their F-2's (Or suped up F-16's) to cover that role, so I cant see them buying the F-18.


User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 19):
Although the eurofighter I think would also have to be in consideration.

Makes no sense for Japan to buy something European when all their equipment is American. If they ever go to war with the US, or nations with US-made fighters, they don't want to be grounded due to lack of Eurobombs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...bya/2011/04/15/AF3O7ElD_print.html

Quote:
Concerns that supplies of jet-launched precision bombs are growing short in Europe have reignited long-standing controversies over both burden-sharing and compatibility within NATO. While allied jets have largely followed the U.S. lead and converted to precision munitions over the last decade, they have struggled to keep pace, according to senior U.S. military officials.

Libya “has not been a very big war. If [the Europeans] would run out of these munitions this early in such a small operation, you have to wonder what kind of war they were planning on fighting,” said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org, a defense think tank. “Maybe they were just planning on using their air force for air shows.”,


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4128 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 19):
The Superhornet would be a good fit but they already have enough f their F-2's (Or suped up F-16's) to cover that role, so I cant see them buying the F-18.

Not to detract from the gravity of the disaster...but it could work in the Superhornet's favor.....

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 10):
and the loss of 20 F-2s in Sendai and you might actually have the need for new aircraft



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2093 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3940 times:

Having read thru this thread again, I noticed that no one has comment on what Japan is looking for in this new fighter.
Will it be primarily air superiority? Multi-purpose?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 20):
If they ever go to war with the US, or nations with US-made fighters, they don't want to be grounded due to lack of Eurobombs.

I don't think the lacking of bomb by NATO has less to do with who builds the bombs, rather it has to do with the individual government willing to pay for bombs that they thought they would never use. As we have seen by the list of major arms selling countries, companies on both sides of the pond are more than willing to provide as many bombs to the buyers as they want long as there are money to pay for it.

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4796 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 16):
If there wasn't any PAK-FA nor J-20....the replacement of the Phantoms could have been "delayed" until later in this decade... and even more so after the earth quake.

Another, more conventional threat is emerging.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...ideo-chinas-j-15-goes-viral-b.html

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 22):
I noticed that no one has comment on what Japan is looking for in this new fighter.
Will it be primarily air superiority? Multi-purpose?

Whatever the guise, it must be a credible foil against the J-20, PAK-FA and the sundry 4th/4.5 Gen fighters around it.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
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