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LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal  
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12294 times:

Bloomberg reports that Lockheed Martin is looking for a way to offer the F-35 as an MRCA candidate to the IAF:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...-11-billion-india-jet-contest.html

Is it too late to to get the foot in the door?

Nice plane...

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11980 times:

No I wouldnt think it would be too late. India getting a chance to get an advanced stealth aircraft like the F-35 I would say they would wait.

User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11928 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 1):
No I wouldnt think it would be too late. India getting a chance to get an advanced stealth aircraft like the F-35 I would say they would wait.

They already will have the Sukhoi T-50 (HAL FGFA) as stealth aircraft. Why should they need such a more expensive aircraft?

[Edited 2011-06-23 13:30:32]

[Edited 2011-06-23 13:33:16]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11886 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):
They already will have the Sukhoi T-50 (HAL FGFA) as stealth aircraft. Why should they need such a more expensive aircraft?

Maybe if it stays on schedule. From what I have seen the F-35 is mor advanced than the t-50. I do know india has some stock in the t-50 but I still think the F-35 would fit into the mold somewhere. There is also not a set price on the T-50 we will have to wait and see which aircraft turns out to be more expensive.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3432 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11870 times:

Uh, Is it bad that I equate this with "LM to offer communicable diseases to India".

Has ANYONE gotten what they wanted with the F35 program?


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11852 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Uh, Is it bad that I equate this with "LM to offer communicable diseases to India".

   There was once a King of Siam who was given a gift of an elephant with a whitish color...


User currently offlineShmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 453 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 11824 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Uh, Is it bad that I equate this with "LM to offer communicable diseases to India"
Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
There was once a King of Siam who was given a gift of an elephant with a whitish color...

    

Yes it is too late. this selection is going by the book - given the huge corruption problems and given How ms Sonia gandhi's husband got caught red handed with bofors - its virtually impossible that the rules will change.

that doesn't rule out a later deal though - but it has no chance in the MMRCA contest



Vi veri universum vivus vici
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 11533 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Has ANYONE gotten what they wanted with the F35 program?

Yes LM pockets...lol


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 11365 times:

India is always very interested in offset-deals.

And i really doubt LM could offer these...


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11111 times:

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):
given the huge corruption problems and given How ms Sonia gandhi's husband got caught red handed with bofors - its virtually impossible that the rules will change

They changed the rules/requirements when the tender transitioned from MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) comprising Dassault Mirage 2000-9, LockMart F-16C/D Falcon, MiG-29 and Saab JAS-39 Gripen to MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to include Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, LockMart F-16IN Super Viper, MiG-35 and Saab Gripen NG. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK, Russia still hasn't signed the "covenant" on defense contracts with India and seemingly has no intention to?

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-35_Left_Wingover_Rear_View_lg.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...-35_Left_Wingover_Rear_View_lg.jpg


Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):

that doesn't rule out a later deal though - but it has no chance in the MMRCA contest

People had been harping on the American entries as old generation aircraft that would be irrelevant before they reach their envisioned service life. Now India is being offered true cutting edge technology and the same people are getting on about how the price would escalate. Could they get the same level of technology and performance for a lower or similar outlay.....and when? Wouldn't it be better to save the expense on the MMRCA and FGFA and invest those instead on the more advanced JSF?


Quoting 328JET (Reply 8):
India is always very interested in offset-deals.

And i really doubt LM could offer these...

As one of the biggest defense contractors (if not the biggest) in the world, Lockheed Martin is very well positioned to fulfill any offset requirements. However, things like EUM may hinder wider involvement in the Indian market.

[Edited 2011-06-28 11:02:26]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10234 times:

The US ups (or rather "lowers") the ante.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/

Quote:
"She expressed her country's willingness to sell state-of-the-art F 35 warplanes to India at 'unbelievable' prices. The Americans are understood to have asked the Indian government to open its purse strings for the Lockheed built fifth generation super stealth F-35 Lightning the basic model of which is being made available to India for $ 65 million apiece. The Indian defence establishment would naturally find the offer too good to be true as much inferior fourth generation French Rafale is priced at $ 85 million and Eurofighter Typhoon (also a fourth generation aircraft) at $ 125 million apiece."

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):

They already will have the Sukhoi T-50 (HAL FGFA) as stealth aircraft. Why should they need such a more expensive aircraft?

Well, if LM could stick to the offered price (a guaranteed 126-frame order could ensure that), India is one place where bargains are understood and appreciated (except by those who stand to lose).

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):
that doesn't rule out a later deal though - but it has no chance in the MMRCA contest

India has accepted the $43M per frame cost for the Mirage 2000 upgrade to -9 standard...with a separate $700M weapons package on top of that. At $65M a copy for the F-35, methinks the MMRCA deal is on pretty shaky ground.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...gn-indian-mirage-upgrade-deal.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-awaited-mirage-2000h-upgrade.html



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10214 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 10):

This is an amazing deal - just take it, guys! Embrace Mother USA! Reminds me of the days when we used to get a polish ham from McDD at Christmas - they had bartered their planes for ham...anyone else from DAC/MAC remember that?   


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9964 times:

Too late.....Choice is left with the last two now.......


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9937 times:

The MRCA deal is now approaching the bid-opening phase. The first step is for the Ministry to come up with a fair price benchmark based on reviews of similar deals elsewhere. This will be compared to the lowest bid (L1) and if L1 is excessive, then the whole process is cancelled and restarted. This could be a scenario where the F-35 sneaks in.

User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9643 times:

Isn't $65m around what was quoted for Canada for F-35s?

User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3432 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 9608 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):
Isn't $65m around what was quoted for Canada for F-35s?

I really really hope thats a quote for basic airframe lacking warfighting electronics and weapons systems. If not the american taxpayer its getting donkey punched by the 800lbs gorrila LM and its paid for generals and senators.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9475 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 15):
I really really hope thats a quote for basic airframe lacking warfighting electronics and weapons systems. If not the american taxpayer its getting donkey punched by the 800lbs gorrila LM and its paid for generals and senators.

Probably dry weight, but a lot of the weapon systems that would be add on features of other fighters are integrated in the F-35... not optional. I think the commonly quoted price for the F-35 for the US includes development costs, something that foreign buyers dont have to pay.


User currently offlineShmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 453 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8947 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
They changed the rules/requirements when the tender transitioned from MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) comprising Dassault Mirage 2000-9

No that was done post issuance of EOI but prior to the issue of RFPs.
More worryingly there were reports the Rafale was the first plane to flounder the tests and get kicked out but was re-instated in the competition reportedly after a call from the midget of the elysee.

One thing i find very disturbing - the vernacular media are full of it and the English media seem hell bent on ignoring it - apparently our Italian woman spoke to their Italian woman about a retirement package and the contract is going to the Rafale.... the license production agreement for the Snecma M-88 is probably the indicator.

I wouldn't be surprised if the DGCE got dirt on the Gandhi's - after all they openly admitted to this wrt the initial mirage contract in 1982.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Russia still hasn't signed the "covenant" on defense contracts with India and seemingly has no intention to?

correct - which is why Russia doesn't win multi national competitions - it win sole source single vendor contracts where the prereq for the covenant seems not to apply

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Now India is being offered true cutting edge technology and the same people are getting on about how the price would escalate. Could they get the same level of technology and performance for a lower or similar outlay.....and when? Wouldn't it be better to save the expense on the MMRCA and FGFA and invest those instead on the more advanced JSF?

My dear - this is India..................... please do not equate intelligence or common sense with it. If you do - well boo to you!

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Lockheed Martin is very well positioned to fulfill any offset requirements.

yes it is - but the US Gov wont let it, that's the problem

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 10):
India has accepted the $43M per frame cost for the Mirage 2000 upgrade to -9 standard...with a separate $700M weapons package on top of that. At $65M a copy for the F-35, methinks the MMRCA deal is on pretty shaky ground

Nope - again - this is India

Quoting comorin (Reply 11):
This is an amazing deal - just take it, guys!

This is India - we are like this only!



Vi veri universum vivus vici
User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8929 times:

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 17):
yes it is - but the US Gov wont let it, that's the problem

It depends. The US government is more than willing to allow US defence contractors to provide 100% of contract value as industrial offsets in Canada, because we are trusted allies. I think at how Indian-US relations are warming up, they will be willing to do the same.


User currently offlineShmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 453 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (3 years 4 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8738 times:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 18):
I think at how Indian-US relations are warming up, they will be willing to do the same.

Offset yes - technology no - And the problem is India's offset clauses insist on ToT.



Vi veri universum vivus vici
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8404 times:

While I was for it in an earlier post I think if I was India I would say thanks but no thanks they cant even get the thing devloped for the host country let alone exporting it.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7512 times:

Glad to note that the Choice will finally be made on the 126 craft.....


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7459 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Uh, Is it bad that I equate this with "LM to offer communicable diseases to India".

Has ANYONE gotten what they wanted with the F35 program?

I think India's interest in the Lockheed Martin F-3 is based on their experience with the C-130J's. I read in Aviation Week that they were pleased with the J's performance and the fact they were delivered early, something India had not experience before.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7331 times:

Its Either of the remaining two now.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6859 times:

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 17):

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Now India is being offered true cutting edge technology and the same people are getting on about how the price would escalate. Could they get the same level of technology and performance for a lower or similar outlay.....and when? Wouldn't it be better to save the expense on the MMRCA and FGFA and invest those instead on the more advanced JSF?

My dear - this is India..................... please do not equate intelligence or common sense with it.

Well, it seems LockMart still has a believer in the Indian press.....   .

http://www.business-standard.com/ind...a-end-this-mmrca-hara-kiri/454091/

Quote:
"Years later, as the IAF finds itself choosing between two Gen-4+ aircraft, it must also note that the F-35 is on the cusp of operational clearance. It’s manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has signalled in multiple ways that it would supply the IAF that fighter at a fly-away cost of $65 million per aircraft (significantly cheaper than the Rafale and the Typhoon) with deliveries beginning by 2015. Washington has indicated that any F-35 sale to India would be expeditiously cleared. But for an insecure IAF, used to being shoved around by the MoD, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The MMRCA purchase would bring in six squadrons of reasonably good fighters, even if they were outclassed by the PLAAF in war. Any change at this state, or so the IAF believes and accepts, would require fresh MoD clearances and financial sanctions that could take another three years.

But there is an alternative. The IAF must frankly tell the MoD that the situation has changed, and that national security demands scrapping the overpriced MMRCA procurement and buying the F-35 through a single-vendor contract. The defence of the realm cannot be held hostage to the procedural requirement of multi-vendor bidding; nor is overpaying justifiable if it was done through competitive bidding."



In any case, the result would be known in days.....but stranger things have happened. Hopefully, the IAF wouldn't be haunted by ghosts of this acquisition.   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
25 bennett123 : How can LM guarantee a price of $65M?.
26 XT6Wagon : US taxpayers getting ripped off. Possibly other nations as well depending on how poorly they structured thier agreement.
27 ThePointblank : My guess will be any Indian order will be for aircraft further down the production line. The further down the production line you go, the cheaper the
28 Shmertspionem : Do you know how often this argument has been used for shady deals? Business Standard is run by Sanjaya Baru well known in academic circles as an Amer
29 474218 : They will sell them using a "commercial" contract. Just like they did when they sold the C-130J's to the RAF and a much lower price than the US DoD w
30 bennett123 : Perhaps the DOD should wise up.
31 Post contains links Devilfish : The DoD has just confirmed the offer..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-confirms-f_35-offer-to-india.html Quote: Joint Strike Fighter and Po
32 rolfen : I hope this is not too much off topic, but I'm under the impression - unless I have fallen behind on the latest developments - that this class of stea
33 ThePointblank : Well, the number of man hours required to assemble a F-35 has decreased over time; for example, F-35 AF-13 from LRIP 2 took 110,000 touch-labor hours
34 Post contains images HAWK21M : Amazingly.....The Press Parties are not reserved to Civil Aviation it seems
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