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Brazil Prefers F-18 Over Rafale  
User currently offlineChamonix From France, joined Mar 2011, 346 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 30688 times:
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http://abonnes.lemonde.fr/economie/a...afale-avant-2012_1547041_3234.html
Taken from "Le Monde".
Brazilian President tilting for F-18 over Rafale.
More than just an ordinary open-and-shut deal.

The Brazilian decision on the possible purchase of French Rafale combat aircraft, which was expected in the spring, was postponed until "early 2012", announced Saturday, July 9th Brazilian Minister of Defense. Asked about the timing of the decision on the margins of Economic Forum of Aix-en-Provence, Nelson Azevedo Jobim said that it would intervene early next year.


He said the new report by the political change brought about by the election in November as president of Brazil Dilma Rousseff, the successor to President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. "At the moment, we focus on domestic issues, with the new government," he justified. The Dassault Rafale is competing with the F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing and Gripen NG Saab of Sweden, a market estimated between four and seven billion dollars.

France has so far not managed to export its combat aircraft and Prime Minister Francois Fillon told the Paris Air Show in late June that Paris hopes to do soon. France has promised Brazil a technology transfer "without limit" to try to win the tender. "The main need for us is technology transfer," said Nelson Jobim, without wanting to know if any of the three proposals differed from the other.

Rousseff SEEMS TO BE FOR THE F-18 FOR BOEING

The Rafale seemed to be favored by former Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. But Dilma Rousseff, who succeeded him, seemed to be in favor of the F-18 and Boeing announced that it would reflect further on the proposals. Since taking office in January, Dilma Rousseff Brazil is working to bring the United States.

India has shortlisted the end of April the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon European consortium for a contract of 126 fighter planes for a total of 11 billion dollars (7.7 billion euros). Negotiations are underway on the other hand for the sale of Rafale in the UAE.

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 30668 times:

It is quite difficult to verify how robust this information is as it is not backed up with any evidence, moreover this is not the first time this rumour is being conveyed by the news papers. Given the fact the Rafale is offered with a full transfer of technology this seems rather surprising, but after all, the aim of tightening the links with the US could very well justfify the choice of the F18...If that is the case that's obviously a very bad news for the french plane...


Stephane
User currently offlineChamonix From France, joined Mar 2011, 346 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 30642 times:
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I think Brazil's decision is geo-eco-militaro-political.
http://www.southcom.mil/AppsSC/pages/about.php
Must be related to bigger deals with Petrobras,a barter of sorts.
http://www.petrobrasusa.us/main.jsp
The proverbial "You buy from me,I buy from you kind of thing."
Watch once this deal is sealed,that the US will either buy or pump in billions in some other venture.
Brazil does not need really these planes anyway as I can not see where the threat is coming from and I doubt it is Chavez as Brazil's President is a Leftist who proved her red-hard credentials by slapping Italy hard in the face by not extraditing ex-Red Brigades terrorist Battisti.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...rrorist-s-path-freedom_574809.html


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3499 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 30493 times:
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Quoting Chamonix (Reply 2):
I doubt it is Chavez as Brazil's President is a Leftist who proved her red-hard credentials



Chavez is in Venezuela and most of his detractors admit he's male... Brazil's president is Dilma Rousseff...

the attachments to your post don't seem to relate to your analysis... so I'm confused as to your point


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2105 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 30094 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 3):
so I'm confused as to your point

If you read it like this, it makes more sense.

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 2):
I can not see where the threat is coming from[period]. . . I doubt it is Chavez as Brazil's President is a Leftist . . .

Heard this morning that there was potentially large potential for Brazil to export ethanol to the US. But with the potential for ethanol requirement and subsidies in US gasoline to be eliminated with the latest budget negotiation, everything is up in the air . . . which could impact Brazil's decision.

So all is not set yet . . .


bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 30036 times:

Forgive me my ignorance, but many countries have picked the (Super)Hornet over the Rafale, and now the Brazilians do it it's a political move all of a sudden?


Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2105 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 29998 times:

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 5):

   War has always been a political act.

Why not the purchase of war materiel  

I think most of us here would agree that it would be REAL NEWS if any purchase of fighter planes are made through strictly technical without any hint of political influence. (Even if the competing planes were from the same country).

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 29849 times:

Unlike India, which has real and extremely stringent needs for hi-altitude warfare, Brazil's needs are minimal. It has friendly neighbors on all sides, so any bunch of planes will fit the bill. If I were Brazil I would ask Embraer to do the needful, much like the US supports its own industries.

User currently offlinejwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 29693 times:

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 5):
Forgive me my ignorance, but many countries have picked the (Super)Hornet over the Rafale, and now the Brazilians do it it's a political move all of a sudden?

don't you know yet that anyone who doesn't buy French is claimed to be politically motivated on this site? While if they do buy French it's because of the quality of the product rather than the political pressure from Paris and Brussels?



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineWingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 848 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 29344 times:

One aspect of the deal I read about was that France would buy KC-390s from Embraer if Brazil bought Rafales from Dassault, but that because France is commited to buying A400M as a partner nation, they likely won't need any KC-390s. Just another aspect of the deal...


Resident TechOps Troll
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 28324 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 7):
Unlike India, which has real and extremely stringent needs for hi-altitude warfare, Brazil's needs are minimal. It has friendly neighbors on all sides, so any bunch of planes will fit the bill. If I were Brazil I would ask Embraer to do the needful, much like the US supports its own industries

While its a good economic idea its also a bad one, asking a company that has never produced a modern fighter jet is a large risk (not saying they couldnt do it) but just throwing it out there. For me the safe pick would be the superhornet (and not just because of my screen name). The US navy has had good success with them in battle and there is alot of room to grow with them although the rafale is a good aircraft I am just not sure how much more that aircraft can grow I cant see it winning the political battle on the US door step.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 28214 times:

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 2):
Brazil does not need really these planes anyway as I can not see where the threat is coming from and I doubt it is Chavez as Brazil's President is a Leftist who prove

Not sure either why Petrobras would need any help. They have done quite nicely by themselves thank you very much. One of the very few companies to open up a major new oil province. More the US companies at their feet begging for acreage.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 27485 times:

One wonders then if this development would figure in the final choice of the fighter, one way or the other.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...s-as-comments-rattle-rousseff.html

Quote:
"The government was trapped in a negative agenda, Dilma has to deal with global economic instability and at the same time has to make tough political decisions," Cortez said in a telephone interview from Sao Paulo. "The resignation of a minister is never a small thing."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 26798 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 10):
asking a company that has never produced a modern fighter jet is a large risk

Eh?

Let me represent you this...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © BravoAlpha



It's made by Aeromacchi and Embraer.
And lets have a look at the cockpit of the brazilian newly renovated F-5E Tiger II to F-5EM Tiger II (Renovated by Embraer)



Neat cockpit huh?
And that was achieved from this...



And of course not to forget the Super Tucano, which isn't a fighter jet but my point is, Embraer could easily develop a fighter jet. Whether it is a 4, 4,5 or 5 generation fighter, I don't know, but they have enough experience to do so therefore it wouldn't be a risk.

Going back to topic, this is confusing. The Air Force AND Embraer wants Gripens. As 'rumored' in another forum more deeply discussing the FX-2 Dilma wants Rafale (In contrary of the OP's link) I don't even remember which 'group' that is involved in the deal wanted F-18s...

Quoting Chamonix (Reply 2):
Brazil does not need really these planes anyway

I thought it was clear enough that Brazil is aiming to be a super power. They do need to start from somewhere right?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Not sure either why Petrobras would need any help. They have done quite nicely by themselves thank you very much.

I wonder what kind of help you are referring to, It is the most obvious thing to do that when you discover a very valuable source of energy such as an oil reserve, you protect it, significantly increase the alert of that zone. Not to mention the huge amount of fishermen coming from Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines, Japan...you name it, found fishing illegally in Uruguayan, Brazilian and Argentinan coasts. (Of course I dont say this as a reason to buy 36 fighter jets, just saying how things look like in the coasts today)

If things looked way differently...countries with important oil reserves like Norway wouldn't need such a Navy/Air force.
So while its very common to find countries with a greatly equipped Air Force/Navy because they have an oil reserve...I wonder why would Brazil be an exception?

Regards.

[Edited 2011-08-13 15:16:18]


Flying4Ever!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26623 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 13):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Not sure either why Petrobras would need any help. They have done quite nicely by themselves thank you very much.

I wonder what kind of help you are referring to, It is the most obvious thing to do that when you discover a very valuable source of energy such as an oil reserve, you protect it, significantly increase the alert of that zone.

The implication I was replying to was that Brazil (and by extension Petrobras) would need US technical assistance in developing their oilfields. There was no reference to their defence. Generally oil companies do not like things that go bang around their very expensive offshore platforms! But indeed, there needs to be a general understanding among likely baddies, that rigs are not soft targets. I doubt if doing that with fighter aircraft is high on the list of options though. Patrol aircraft to detect potential threats is a different matter.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2105 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 26467 times:

Boeing took great risk by agreeing to do the mod for Peace Eagle and Peace Eye "in Country". It turned out O.K.

I'm sure the Brazilians will be successful in assembling an F-18 kit, if it comes to that . . . as would the Indians with their European fighter.

  

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24656 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 13):
Going back to topic, this is confusing. The Air Force AND Embraer wants Gripens. As 'rumored' in another forum more deeply discussing the FX-2 Dilma wants Rafale (In contrary of the OP's link) I don't even remember which 'group' that is involved in the deal wanted F-18s...

Whichever that was, it's again relegated to the backburner as the tender is delayed by economic vicissitudes once more.....

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=7987149&c=AIR&s=TOP

Quote:
"PARIS - The international economic crisis has pushed Brazil's plans to update its fighter jet fleet to the sidelines, Brazilian Defense Minister Celso Amorim said here Oct. 18.

'The fundamental consideration at the moment is the financial and economic world situation,' Amorim said. 'Brazil's economy is growing at 4 percent, but we don't exactly know what the consequences of the financial crisis will be'."


Of course, a decision next year was not ruled out, although Dassault might have better luck with the UAE along that line.....

Quote:
"On the Rafale, Longuet said Oct. 17 on French TV news channel LCI that France was in advanced talks with the United Arab Emirates on the sale of 60 of the warplanes.

'We are in final discussions,' Longuet said. It was 'extremely probable' an export deal could be signed, he said."


Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 13):
Not to mention the huge amount of fishermen coming from Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines, Japan...you name it

I don't know about the others, but it certainly is surprising to hear Philippine vessels venturing halfway around the world just to fish. Not only would it be hard to break even due to fuel costs...it's also ascribing very sturdy seagoing capabilities on our vessels, when even the Navy's ships have great difficulty patrolling Philippine seas. Are you positive those are not just Filipino crewed, foreign-flagged boats? Dubious honor, yes, but please excuse me if I take a little pride in our people's shipbuilding skills, however unsophisticated.  



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 23096 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 13):
(Of course I dont say this as a reason to buy 36 fighter jets, just saying how things look like in the coasts today)

If things looked way differently...countries with important oil reserves like Norway wouldn't need such a Navy/Air force.
So while its very common to find countries with a greatly equipped Air Force/Navy because they have an oil reserve...I wonder why would Brazil be an exception?

I guess Brazil has just found a solution for that situation.....

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index...ption=com_content&task=view&id=238

Quote:
"The Brazilian Navy could soon announce the purchase of offshore patrol vessels to BAE Systems. These three vessels built for the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guards were ordered in 2007 and then canceled in 2010 after a change of government. The Brazilian Navy would also buy an optional five extra vessels of the same type.

According to the Brazilian newspaper ALIDE, the purchase by the Brazilian Navy of three British-built OPV is about to be concluded. There were only a few points left to be addressed, such as offsets and financing.

Technical aspects have already been discussed while the political aspects are now the focus for the Brazilian Navy and the Brazilian Department of Defense."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 22910 times:

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 13):
Eh?

Let me represent you this...

Huge difference between an F-5E and a superhornet, not dicounting it looks like they did a good jobs on the F-5's but there is a difference in the aircrafts capabilities and technical advancements.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 20554 times:

Interesting article.....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...th-Brazil/articleshow/11801915.cms

Quote:
"India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim.

'Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours,' Amorim told TOI.

[.....]

Amorim said Brazil was eager to learn from India's process of finalizing Rafale, the French fighter, for the over $10 billion MMRCA contract. It is one of the world's biggest defence tenders right now.

[.....]

'Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality,' Amorim said. 'Sharing of experience doesn't mean we follow your decision,' he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia."



Looking for a way to justify whatever it is they would choose eventually, to fend off protests?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17796 times:

Boeing on the warpath.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...iers-court-brazilian-industry.html

Quote:
"BELO HORIZONTE, Brazil --- Boeing and its Super Hornet industry partners toured the Brazilian state of Minas Gerais March 20-22 to assess the aerospace capabilities of local companies and to identify opportunities for work with Boeing and its worldwide supply chain.

[.....]

The Boeing-led industry tours are part of ongoing outreach throughout Brazil in support of the industrial partnership program for the F-X2 fighter jet campaign, based on Brazilian Air Force requirements."



Could they bring home the spoils?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 17398 times:

Would the United States sell Brazil older FA-18Es and Fs to make the sale easier to win and the purchase easier for Brazil? I guess it comes down to whether Brazil is intent on buying brand new jets or well cared for pre-owned models.


Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14610 times:

With the tender dragging this long, doubtful that Brazil wants used aircraft. And the selection just got extended a little bit more.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...decision-until-end-of-2012-373766/

Quote:
"The Brazilian government has deferred selecting the winner of its F-X2 fighter competition until 31 December 2012, despite repeated assurances a decision would be announced by mid-year.

Disclosing that it has requested bidding companies Boeing, Dassault and Saab to maintain their offers until the year-end date, the government attributed its latest postponement to unfavourable global economic conditions and low economic growth in Brazil.

Local reports suggest Brazilian president Dilma Rousseff held talks with French counterpart François Hollande at the UN's recent Rio +20 conference over a new proposal on the Dassault Rafale."



Who's betting that a winner will be known by Jan '13?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13536 times:

Update:

Boeing ups the ante.....

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_07_16_2012_p0-476978.xml

July 16, 2012

Quote:
"U.S. aerospace company Boeing has offered to transfer more technology to Brazil if the government upgraded its air force fighter fleet with the firm’s F-18 Super Hornet jet, a local paper reported July 14.

Boeing vice president of the F/A-18 program, Mike Gibbons, said his company would offer Brazilian 'companies the opportunity to construct components for the new Super Hornets and other future projects of Boeing,' according to O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2105 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 13469 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 23):
Update:

Boeing ups the ante.....

It's more than that. They will be working with Embraer several Military ventures (transport and MMA). It's all part of a Corporate attempt to get Brazil in the Boeing camp.   

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
25 Post contains links and images fbwless : Some news in Brazilian newspaper Folha de São Paulo. Apparently Rafale has been ruled out due to cost reasons and with Brazil-US relations at an all
26 nomadd22 : Keep dreaming. Not sure what kind of support was included but France's offer came in at $110 million a plane while Super Hornets have gone for $55 mi
27 Post contains images fbwless : The same Brazilian media outfit now reports that negotiations between Sweden and Brazilian MOD has intensified in the last few months. Me dreaming wo
28 agill : By the speed the brazilians are moving on this deal they most likely will buy a gen 7 fighter with laserguns in 2063.
29 infiniti329 : The technology Boeing is allowed to sell is not up to them but the U.S. government
30 Post contains images sturmovik : Yep, they're making the Indian MoD look fast, in comparison.
31 Post contains images SAS A340 : It is totally unattractive to compare prices when you don't know what the package contains, it would be naive to think that the Rafale is twice as ex
32 solarflyer22 : I mean I'm not a fighter jock but it seems like its a bit of a no brainer. Their likely adversary in any aerial engagement is clearly Venezuela. They
33 ThePointblank : Well, if Brazil wants the Super Hornet, they better move fast. If they don't order by 2015, the line gets shut down if there are no future orders and
34 agill : I wonder when the russians will enter into the mix.
35 Post contains links SAS A340 : It looks like Brazil has decided to buy the Gripen E.... http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article18049226.ab Only in Swedish) From the article: The n
36 Post contains images fbwless : Brazil's Secretary of Defense says they bought the best technology with respect to cost. Hopefully this will pave the way for more orders. Finally a
37 solarflyer22 : Great win for the Swedes. What is the cost per unit? Why is the order number so low too? I'd think they'd need at least 100.
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