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EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI  
User currently offlineepten From Macedonia, joined Sep 2007, 184 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 19138 times:

Apparently, the EF2000 trashed the Sukhoi, which confirms my oppinion that in good old-fashioned WVR dogfight (guns+IR) it is currently the best fighter.

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=109428

Comments?

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 19065 times:

Surprised that it prevailed in a WVR scenario, given the agility and Gee pulling ability of the MKI. I wonder how it stacks up against the Rafale? I'll scurry over to the subcontinental blogs (Baharat Rakshak et al) and see what they think.

This is really becoming like an Alien vs. Predator sort of thing.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 19017 times:

Thats interesting - I'd have expected the Sukhoi to win in a knifefight because of the nozzles. I bet it was a hell of a fight.

I always got the impression the RAF did not have much expertise in the dogfighting skills area as we've not had a dogfighter worthy of the name for decades. Probably the Germans, Spaniards and Italians are better at it than us.

I guess our Typhoon guys learned the latest dogfighting tactics and skills from the USAF?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 18698 times:

Quoting epten (Thread starter):
Apparently, the EF2000 trashed the Sukhoi, which confirms my oppinion that in good old-fashioned WVR dogfight (guns+IR) it is currently the best fighter.

No surpise  . Altough many people deny it or play down its capabilities, the EF has such a superior technology i would dare to say even the F-35 would struggle in BVR and in a dogfight even more.

The Typhoon has already beaten F-16's,F-18's,F-15's, Harrier's, Mirage's, why would the Su-30 be an exception?

With the IRIS-T it features the most powerful short-range air-to-air missile. Once the Typhoon (Tranche 3)will be equipped with CAESAR and two way datalink capable Meteor it will be a really dangerous adversary to any fighter.

[Edited 2011-07-26 05:15:53]


“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3906 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18674 times:

As always, everyone focusses on technology and no one discusses pilot quality. It's maybe getting less crucial, but still.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):

So what good dogfighters did the Germans and Italians have?



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 18671 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
I wonder how it stacks up against the Rafale?

From what I could gather there were a series of flights of the EF2000 against the Rafale during the UAE evaluation.
It was pretty inconclusive from what I heard (technically the Rafale won, but it could have gone either way if I remember correctly).

I think it would need more data for a decisive answer.


User currently onlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2729 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 18544 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
As always, everyone focusses on technology and no one discusses pilot quality.

Exactly! But like A vs B, waving the manufacturer flag is always much more fun.  

You do know a T-38 Talon downed an F-22 Raptor... right?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2098 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (3 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 18516 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 6):
You do know a T-38 Talon downed an F-22 Raptor... right?

If it was an aggressor squadron, wouldn't that be an F-5 or maybe F-5F?



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 18284 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):

So what good dogfighters did the Germans and Italians have?

Italians have flown the F16 and the Luftwaffe the Mig29 - both top end dogfighters.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3906 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 18221 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ERItalians have flown the F16 and the Luftwaffe the Mig29Reply 8):

True.

That reminds me of something - when the West Germans got the MiG-29s and it looked for a moment that they might even like the aircraft, the MIiG-29 suddenly changed from a dangerous threat into an unbelievable piece of crap in Eurofighter advertising.

Likewise, the RAF chief would play up the Sukhoi and play down the Typhoon if he happened to be lobbying for a new fighter right now. It's all politics.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 6):
You do know a T-38 Talon downed an F-22 Raptor... right?

Lol.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 18157 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 9):
That reminds me of something - when the West Germans got the MiG-29s and it looked for a moment that they might even like the aircraft, the MIiG-29 suddenly changed from a dangerous threat into an unbelievable piece of crap in Eurofighter advertising.

Likewise, the RAF chief would play up the Sukhoi and play down the Typhoon if he happened to be lobbying for a new fighter right now. It's all politics.

Nicely put. And try the reasons why Australia needs F-35s to defend against China attacking its own raw materials suppliers!!! That is quite funny too. Only thing, is it is very expensive.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1302 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 days ago) and read 18066 times:

Baroque

Just out of historic interest, in 1939 the biggest trading partner of Germany was ... France. In 1941 Germany got the vast majority of it's oil from .... the Soviet Union. Laying hands on the supplies of a foreign nation is actually a pretty common reason for starting a war.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlineElpinDAB From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 468 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17774 times:

I wonder if the Su-30 was used correctly...with its high performance capabilities. Drawn into a close-quarters dogfight, I could definitely see the EF-2000 winning, but if the Su-30 used its power and momentum to its advantage, I could see good tactics giving it the advantage. Not to say it is an inferior fighter at all. During WW2, when dogfighting tactics were really drawn, certain aircraft took an advantage because the pilots knew how to defend. I suppose this expands upon the "could be the pilot" questions. I'm sure the Su-30 can zoom climb better, among other maneuvers. Of course a close-turning dog-fight with no rules would favor the EF-2000, just as a Zero could probably out-maneuver a Corsair (extreme example, as I would consider this more of a P-51 vs Corsair than Zero vs Corsair, but same point).

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 8):

Italians have flown the F16 and the Luftwaffe the Mig29 - both top end dogfighters.

...and the EF-2000...along with the Germans.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 3):
The Typhoon has already beaten F-16's,F-18's,F-15's, Harrier's, Mirage's, why would the Su-30 be an exception?

I don't doubt it in the least, although I would love to see the commentary about this. I'm sure tactics were immediately rewritten afterwards, for each fighter. The EF-2000 is a very impressive fighter though, and one that I'd feel most confident taking into battle.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 5):
From what I could gather there were a series of flights of the EF2000 against the Rafale during the UAE evaluation.
It was pretty inconclusive from what I heard (technically the Rafale won, but it could have gone either way if I remember correctly).

I think it would need more data for a decisive answer.

I certainly wish there was more data. Any word on the new engine for the Rafale, btw? This would give the Rafale a nice advantage, although I know it's an emotional topic. Such a beautiful airframe though. I must say though, that given the choice of one aircraft, the French were forced to accept a mulit-role platform capable of ground-attack missions too, which would probably hinder dog-fighting capabilities.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 10):
And try the reasons why Australia needs F-35s to defend against China attacking its own raw materials suppliers!!!

And this could almost be a discussion on its own...F-35 vs other aircraft...will it live up to the standards of the aircraft it replaces? I know speed isn't everything, but just to be dramatic, Aussie fighters have been getting slower by the day...Mirage III Mach 2, F/A-18 Mach 1.8, F-35 Mach 1.65...? And how well will the single engine F-35 be able to patrol the outback and the other remote, tropical regions of Oz? But, a more generalized F-35 vs. other argument is more appropriate. Is it anything more than a stealthy, 5th generation excuse of a compromise for anything operating today? Will it be able to hold its own in a dog-fight based on its clean, no-hardpoint config for certain air-2-air missions?

F-35 bashing is in right now, and is there really any reason to support the plane? It's over budget, over due, and over priced.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 6):
You do know a T-38 Talon downed an F-22 Raptor... right?
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 7):
If it was an aggressor squadron, wouldn't that be an F-5 or maybe F-5F?

Basically the same plane. The question is, was it a blunder on the F-22 pilot's part, or a tactical advantage for the T-38/F-5 pilot? How was it done, is the key question, which I don't think will be answered accurately.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17758 times:

Quote from original article:

Quote:
Dalton was also all praise for the IAF for training its pilots to put any aircraft they fly to best use. "The issue is you are comparing technology and people. So, more often than not, technology can give you a great edge, a great lead. But actually it is always the people (behind the machines) who make the difference at the end of the day," he said.

Quote from NDTV defence correspondent Shiv Aroor's blog on the same exercise:
link

Quote:
While the RAF fielded some of their most-experienced and highly-qualified pilots, some of them being very senior performance evaluators in active service, the IAF pilots were a mix of 'young to middle-level pilots' from the 'Rhinos' squadron.

The IAF has never been comfortable with pushing the MKI to its stated abilities in such exercises. In several instances, it declined to have the MKI participate at all, or only flew on a restricted basis.

Further, it bears noting that the two sides had very different imperatives; the Typhoon - as a contender - was under examination, not the MKI. For the IAF, the pilot selection shows they wanted to see the EF2000 and simultaneously give their junior combat pilot cadre more training experience.

It doesn't make much sense to view this as a MKI vs EF2000 matter; had that been so for the IAF (and not what RAF or EADS would like to think), they'd have just invited Sukhoi to the bidding process to begin with.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineElpinDAB From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 468 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17741 times:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
The IAF has never been comfortable with pushing the MKI to its stated abilities in such exercises.

Then, the entire exercise would almost be in vain for the purpose of this conversation.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
Further, it bears noting that the two sides had very different imperatives; the Typhoon - as a contender - was under examination, not the MKI. For the IAF, the pilot selection shows they wanted to see the EF2000 and simultaneously give their junior combat pilot cadre more training experience.

Interesting. Then, Indian nationalism would have nothing to do with this combat exercise, only pure fighter pilot selection flying the best aircraft available. An experience RAF pilot in an EF-2000 has an advantage over a newb in an Su-30. That really isn't saying much, though. I'm not trying to troll...but only point out the obvious. I thank you for the point. So in fact, the EF-2000 isn't definitively better than the Su-30, and the pilots are, in fact, important, if your assertations are accurate.


btw, how does your Mirage 2000 compare against the Su-30?


User currently offlineElpinDAB From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 468 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17736 times:

Pure speculation on the match...

The Su-30 climbs to a higher altitude and tops out at a faster speed. This would equate to a better climb performance above FL400 at least, just to generalize. I would also assume that it zoom climbs better at all altitudes given its sheer mass.


The EF-2000 would be highly effective in dog-fights, given its extreme maneuverability. It can also accelerate very quickly, and that would also yield high climb rates to almost any altitude to about FL400, except from low airspeeds, where the EF-2000 would probably have an advantage in climb and acceleration.

The Su-30 is just huge for a fighter too. Its fighting dimensions must utilize more space than the EF-2000, which would give the EF-2000 an advantage, although the smallest fighter doesn't always win, and the EF-2000 isn't exactly a small fighter either...in fact, it's rather large, historically.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17726 times:

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 14):
Then, the entire exercise would almost be in vain for the purpose of this conversation.

It's a British/RAF sourced article, with their point of view. I simply pointed out that the pilot profiles on either side just underscore the statement made by one of the RAF personnel. The RAF sent their best and were out to demonstrate the capabilities of a plane they're trying to sell. For GoI and IAF, there was no similar compulsion, and they demonstrated it by picking the pilots accordingly, instead of doing something like have the entire TACDE over to participate, which sounds like what the RAF did.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 14):
Then, Indian nationalism would have nothing to do with this combat exercise,

Why ? Emotional nationalism is overrated. It's much more beneficial to quietly learn about the other side, when they're themselves inclined to go out of their way to put their best foot forward in order to make a sale.

For the IAF, the MKI occupies a different role from what they use the M2K or intend the MRCA choice for. As I said, if they saw the MKI as comparable to the MRCA contenders, they'd just have invited Sukhoi, instead of both put out the MRCA tender and continuously ramp up the MKI numbers.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineElpinDAB From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 468 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17717 times:

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt220/varun22/AIR_SU-30MKI_Eurofighter_Top_ID-200.jpg

http://www.patricksaviation.com/files/photos/full/23765_17976.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/TNbjMus1WbI/AAAAAAAAASM/GAEEO2XtyDE/s1600/typhoon-e-su-30mkic.jpg

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Tornado-F3_Eurofighter_SU-30MKI_Top_lg.jpg

Enjoy!


User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17704 times:

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 14):
An experience RAF pilot in an EF-2000 has an advantage over a newb in an Su-30. That really isn't saying much, though. I'm not trying to troll...but only point out the obvious. I thank you for the point. So in fact, the EF-2000 isn't definitively better than the Su-30, and the pilots are, in fact, important, if your assertations are accurate.

Apart from the much more modern technology the point where the Typhoon betters almost any fighter is the human machine interface.
The workload for the pilots in a Typhoon is much much lower then surely most other combat aircraft. This gives a even less experienced pilots an huge advantage.

The Typhoon Sensor Fusion is fully integrated and automated. With the DVI(Voice+HOTAS) the pilot can give over 250 aural commands to the aircraft.
The Defensive Aids Sub-System monitors and responds automatically to the outside world. It provides the pilot with an all-round prioritised assessment of Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface threats. It can respond to single or multiple threats.

So the Typhoon is definitively better then the Su-30. It can climb faster(Su-30 230m/sec Typhoon 315m/sec), can sustain 10g over infinite periods, rollrates over 260°/sec can do 9g turns while supersonic.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineChrisba777er From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17601 times:

I'm not the only one sat here thinking this I'm sure.

Damn - the Sukhoi is absolutely stunningly gorgeous. Got to be one of best looking planes ever made, surely. Talk about sexy.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17587 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 11):
Baroque

Just out of historic interest, in 1939 the biggest trading partner of Germany was ... France. In 1941 Germany got the vast majority of it's oil from .... the Soviet Union. Laying hands on the supplies of a foreign nation is actually a pretty common reason for starting a war.

As best I can recall that rather ended in tears, for Germany in particular. Another example was Japan and the GEC-OZ and that turned out rather badly for, er guess what Japan. Got any examples that might encourage China to do the same. Only one I can think of is Israel collecting pro tem a number of water catchment areas. But that one has not ended - yet! Anyways still key differences, China OWNS a goodly part of these assets ALREADY! So they are invading themselves in this case.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
And how well will the single engine F-35 be able to patrol the outback and the other remote, tropical regions of Oz? But, a more generalized F-35 vs. other argument is more appropriate. Is it anything more than a stealthy, 5th generation excuse of a compromise for anything operating today? Will it be able to hold its own in a dog-fight based on its clean, no-hardpoint config for certain air-2-air missions?

F-35 bashing is in right now, and is there really any reason to support the plane? It's over budget, over due, and over priced.

Nicely put questions, I just wish our lot ever started to answer any of them. Someone was on our radio today explaining how the F-111 put the fear of god into the Indonesians that Jakarta would be bombed in 1998 over E Timor. What total rubbish. Some in Indonesia would have welcomed that as it would have meant instant victory in E Timor. Militaristic folk do come up with some amazing non sequiturs. Even 20 tonnes of bombs on Jakarta would hardly be noticed, the place is enormous and what to hit? That is assuming the F-111 really could get there which is not a foregone conclusion. They might have been a bit more worried about Harpoons from subs, but not sure if the Collins were carrying them then, probably were.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17564 times:

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 17):

Thanks for the great pics! That first shot is telling, showing the difference in size between the two aircraft.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16):
Emotional nationalism is overrated. It's much more beneficial to quietly learn about the other side,

Hey BarfBag, gone through a life-changing experience recently? 


User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 762 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17542 times:

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
I certainly wish there was more data. Any word on the new engine for the Rafale, btw?

... don't know about the new engine, but given the amount of new standards for the current engine that SNECMA are pumping out (to improve dispatch reliability) I wouldn't be surprised if it was sooner rather than later  
Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
French were forced to accept a mulit-role platform capable of ground-attack missions too, which would probably hinder dog-fighting capabilities.

... well... it dogfights well, it's unlikely to end up against an F22 (we hope) and it certainly handles ground attack better than the aforementioned aircraft  

To be fair the Rafale is a good multirole aircraft, has a naval version in its lineup and deserves to do better in the export markets...


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 day ago) and read 17487 times:

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
Basically the same plane. The question is, was it a blunder on the F-22 pilot's part, or a tactical advantage for the T-38/F-5 pilot? How was it done, is the key question, which I don't think will be answered accurately.

Goes right back to the Red Baron's infamous WWI quote, "It's not the crate but the man in the crate"



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineepten From Macedonia, joined Sep 2007, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 17262 times:

I am pretty certain that a retarded monkey in a Typhoon will easily shoot down an combat experienced test-piloting ace in MiG-29 9.12A.

Technology isn't everything, but certainly accounts to something.


25 FoxTwo : Exactly. Any fighter pilot will tell you it comes down a bit of luck nowadays. The machine - does improve your advantage but does not always win the
26 Post contains links Devilfish : Well, let's try one the Russian AF chief proffers..... http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...u-35s-inferior-to-usaf-jets-s.html Quote: "1. The Su-35
27 wvsuperhornet : The F-22 Has ground attack capability and is probably more advanced than the ground attack of the euro-fighter (not knocking it becuase its a good ai
28 Post contains images chuchoteur : Well the Rafale is more suited in the ground attack role than either the EF2000 Eurofighter (1st campaign in that role being Libya, whereas the Rafal
29 rwessel : The F-22 has four external 5000lb hardpoints which can carry fuel tanks or weapons. I know they can carry AIM-9s and AIM-120s on the outer hardpoints
30 Post contains links BilgeRat : A few points: That's not true. The RAF has always trained for the full gamut of air combat. It didn't stop training its pilots air combat manoeuvring
31 Post contains images Autothrust : Probably? Its based on what? Though the Typhoon is limited in the use of ground attack weapons it has been very successfull in ground attack missions
32 Post contains images BilgeRat : It's the F-22! It's American! That alone makes it better than anything else. Did you honestly expect a thread discussing the Typhoon to last very lon
33 chuchoteur : thanks for the correction. As far as I'm aware they've never put air to ground ordnance on those external hardpoints yet, but that doesn't mean they
34 BilgeRat : Perhaps you're right, but then again there is nothing to stop the individual partner nations forging ahead with their own integration of A-G capabili
35 Post contains images Autothrust : Oh you are right how could i expect such a thing?? It doesn't matter how much success the Typhoon will ever achieve or how many missions in war zones
36 ThePointblank : The main issue is that F-22 is not equipped with Link-16 datalink transmission capabilities; it has the ability to receive, but not the ability to tr
37 comorin : According to wiki, it's because transmitting would give away its position?
38 chuchoteur : ... a bit of a shortcut there really... all the Rafale vs EF2000 air-to-air sorties that I've witnessed (a few) it has always been a fairly even matc
39 Post contains images BilgeRat : The simple fact is discussions like this are very heavily coloured by nationalistic sentiment. As an aviation enthusiast I love the Flanker and Fulcr
40 Post contains images KPDX : Indeed.... see replies 34 and 35.
41 BilgeRat : Care to elaborate? In particular what nationalistic sentiment was present in reply 34?
42 HaveBlue : I agree, reply 34 seemed pretty straightforward and factual. Maybe not so much with reply 35.
43 Baroque : Arguably not, however, straight nationalistic. Rather it was more pointing out the existence of nationalist bias in "assessments" as peddling that pa
44 Post contains images KPDX : Sorry, I meant reply 32.. I was joking anyways. No need to take it so seriously.
45 Post contains images BilgeRat : No bother. I was just taking a jab at the F-22 cheerleaders You have to admit though, the OBOGS problem would be embarassing for any fighter, let alo
46 Post contains images chuchoteur : Which one? the TSR2? Actually these days I'm less worried about what type of aircraft the RAF operates, and more worried about how many they are plan
47 BilgeRat : The Lightning. It managed to survive Duncan Sandys' infamous defence white paper and went on to serve for almost 30 years with the RAF - but througho
48 epten : Not really. EF-2000 has considerably better t/w ratio and climbs faster (230 m/s vs 300+ m/s, according to Wikipedia). EF-2000 has better sustained t
49 L-188 : Disagree, The Saab Draken could do most of what a Lighting chould do but with only one Avon.
50 wvsuperhornet : While I think if its flying the F-22 is better in air to air and some of your pilots have said so I dont think the margine is that much and you are r
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