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US Proposes F-18 Super Hornet To Japan  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24905 posts, RR: 46
Posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13177 times:

Short of opting for the F-35, the F-18 Super Hornet could provide JASDF good value for the Yen.

Quote:
Boeing, US Navy Deliver Proposal to Equip Japan Air Self Defense Force with Advanced Super Hornets

TOKYO, Sept. 25, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing and the U.S. Navy have delivered a proposal to the government of Japan offering the advanced F/A-18E Super Hornet Block II to become the Japan Air Self Defense Force's (JASDF) next premier fighter aircraft. The F/A-18E Block II is the United States' newest operational and combat-proven fighter aircraft.

"The Super Hornet is the world's most advanced multirole fighter and its selection would provide the Japan Air Self Defense Force with new, unprecedented capability," said Boeing Japan President Mike Denton. "The Super Hornet can provide the government of Japan with guaranteed pricing and a guaranteed delivery timeline, while equipping the JASDF with superior multirole capability for the defense of Japan.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Boeing...ver-prnews-503976167.html?x=0&.v=1



Per the Japan F-X RFP an initial batch of 40-50 fighters will be ordered, with the first 12 to be delivered by 2017.
Its also expected BAE Systems teamed with Sumitomo Corp will offer the Eurofighter Typhoon.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 12897 times:

It would be stupid for anyone to buy a 4th gen fighter today, no matter how much fancy avionic crap you can cram into it. Time for the US to start selling the F-22 to its allies, this includes Japan, Canada, etc. The production line stays open, US gets money and North America gets air defence with a fleet of Raptors. Win - win.

User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7482 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 12781 times:

Obama Says F-22A Raptor Is "outdated" (by Geezer Sep 15 2011 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

If Obama is right, and the F22A is outdated, then who will want to buy it?.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12758 times:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 1):
Time for the US to start selling the F-22 to its allies, this includes Japan, Canada, etc.

It truly is! Russia has stealth, China has stealth, best thing to do if the US cant afford more F-22s is to sell as many as possible to allies. As long as they are flying around... doesn't need to have the stars and bars on it.


Canada probably wouldn't go for such a 1 trick pony... thoroughbred or not. Sell them to Israel, Japan, South Korea, Australia... anyone who has stated an interest in them. I think Australia would be a great candadate. They are looking at 100 F-35s, 40 F-22s and 60 F-35s would be a lethal combination.


Lockheed needs to offer a F-22L, the same concept as the F-18L. Lighter, cheaper, not as advanced as the full blown F-22, upgradeable to the full standard if needed. The airframe itself cant cost that much more than a F-15E airframe... put 4.5 gen gear in F-22 with no stealth coating, lesser electronics, and no thrust vectoring.


User currently onlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4702 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12736 times:
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Quoting Oroka (Reply 3):
It truly is! Russia has stealth, China has stealth, best thing to do if the US cant afford more F-22s is to sell as many as possible to allies.

Tell that to the morons in congress who have prevented any sale to allies. Given the run down in the F22 production line, even if permission was given now, even Tokyo, who pay several times more for any equipment anyone else will pay, won't want one. The costs to restart the line will be exorbitant even by Tokyo standards.


User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12726 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 3):
put 4.5 gen gear in F-22 with no stealth coating, lesser electronics, and no thrust vectoring.

That's like buying a Z06 and swapping everything back to the base corvette.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12696 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 4):
Tell that to the morons in congress who have prevented any sale to allies.

In their defense, the T-50 and J-20 didnt exist, or were paper airplanes. The Chinese jet was just a rumor, and the T-50 was potentially another MiG 1.44 or SU-47 technology demonstrator.


While the long lead items for the F-22 are finished, the jigs are being stored. Im sure that if the okay went through, the Japanese would be happy to provide the needed parts themselves.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 5):
That's like buying a Z06 and swapping everything back to the base corvette.

If they do it at the factory, it is a corvette. If you cant afford a Z06, the corvette is better than a new grand prix.

[Edited 2011-09-26 15:35:12]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12682 times:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 1):
Time for the US to start selling the F-22 to its allies, this includes Japan, Canada, etc. The production line stays open, US gets money and North America gets air defence with a fleet of Raptors. Win - win

The Canadians will never pony up for Raptors. I might consider selling them to Japan, but that's about it.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 3):
China has stealth,

Not for several more years at least.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 3):
best thing to do if the US cant afford more F-22s is to sell as many as possible to allies.

Ditch the F-35 first, and then buy more F-22s.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4782 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12610 times:

If what the JASDF want is another good all-rounder for not that much dough (like the F-4 in its time) then the Super Bug is the ticket.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 3):
The airframe itself cant cost that much more than a F-15E airframe... put 4.5 gen gear in F-22 with no stealth coating, lesser electronics, and no thrust vectoring.

As the F-35's price continues to soar, I doubt a less capable, new-build F-22 would be more economical. Better an all-up F-15 Silent Eagle than a dumbed-down Raptor. Trouble is, for all the fanfare which surrounded its unveiling, Boeing now proposing the Super Hornet indicates all that hype about the Silent Eagle was nothing more than hot air.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...VBgBTpocNRF_st_xQ0g6a9BnA58dJSeYUQ


This is LockMart's deal to lose if they don't shape up.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12599 times:

The F/A-18E/F just like the F-4 was at the time Japan built them in the early 1980's, is the perfect combination of readily available technology at the absolute best and most economical price. With Boeing willing to let Japan build the aircraft under license just as they did the F-4 Phantoms, lets face it - this is a done deal.

Perhaps Japan will consider the JSF or Typhoon at a later date, but for this RFP, the Super Hornet just as it would be for the US Marines, is the perfect solution. Personally, I think the F-18F's is what they should buy, but that's just me.

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/gallery/3505_13_08_08_5_12_33.png


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 12596 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Ditch the F-35 first, and then buy more F-22s.

The F-22 is not a ground attack fighter by any stretch of the imagination. The F-35 has its place, but the F-35B needs to go. In the end, the F-35 will be cheaper than the F-22, and replacing an order for 1760 F-35A with F-22s will cost an additional $40B. There should be more F-22s... at least 300.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4782 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12471 times:

Lockheed Martin proposes what Japan (after the F-22 denial) is seeking.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...submits-f-35-bid-for-japan-362591/

Quote:
"Lockheed Martin and the US Air Force have responded to a Japanese request for proposals for a next-generation F-X fighter with a bid using the F-35 Lightning II.

Facing competition from the Boeing F/A-18E Super Hornet Block II and Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed is promoting the F-35 as representing 'the pinnacle of fighter aircraft development'.

'We are confident that F-35 delivers unmatched cost-effective capability for Japan's defence, now and well into the future,' said Lockheed campaign director John Balderston. 'We are committed to an enduring F-35 partnership with Japanese industry to deliver F-35's transformational fifth-generation capability for Japan's long-term national security'."


.
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=37576


It bears watching if Japan would remain undaunted by the price.         



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2074 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12418 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 4):
The costs to restart the line will be exorbitant even by Tokyo standards.
Quoting Oroka (Reply 6):

While the long lead items for the F-22 are finished, the jigs are being stored. I'm sure that if the okay went through, the Japanese would be happy to provide the needed parts themselves.

I would think Japan would be more than willing to "borrow" the tools and pay to set up a production line in Japan.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 9):
With Boeing willing to let Japan build the aircraft under license just as they did the F-4 Phantoms, lets face it - this is a done deal.

With Boeing having extensive relations with their Japanese partners, from a business standpoint, it's a no brainier. From an airplane performance wise, that's the rub.

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12408 times:

IMO the only thing that is needed to get the F-22 approved to select allies is some stiff lobbying in Washington, pointing out that Russia and China have stealth fighters in the pipes.

User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12135 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 3):
Lockheed needs to offer a F-22L, the same concept as the F-18L. Lighter, cheaper, not as advanced as the full blown F-22, upgradeable to the full standard if needed. The airframe itself cant cost that much more than a F-15E airframe... put 4.5 gen gear in F-22 with no stealth coating, lesser electronics, and no thrust vectoring.

While I agree with your concept its not going to happen about the only thing the pentagon and congress can agree on lately is that the F-22 is not on the table for anyone an export model was never developed and would cost to much to R&D one. The superhornet while not stealthy should be a viable option for Japan if not and they go with the eurofighter it would be a good option for them also. The F-35 has way to many troubles right now I wouldnt even consider it for a while until the US works all the bugs out of the program. The russian and chinese stealth fighters are still 10 years away from being a viable threat so there is some time not to panic on buying stealthy advanced aircraft that are having problems.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12057 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 10):
The F-22 is not a ground attack fighter by any stretch of the imagination.

There were several iterations of the "FB-22" any of which would probably have provided the same if not better capability than the F-35 for less cost. There is potential in the F-22 airframe and there is no reason other than lack of will why it couldn't be adapted into a fine attack aircraft.

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 14):
The russian and chinese stealth fighters are still 10 years away from being a viable threat so there is some time not to panic on buying stealthy advanced aircraft that are having problems.

If development is not started on improved stealth aircraft now, it will be time to panic before too long. The clock is ticking and if the government doesn't get their house in order they will find others catching up quite quickly.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2074 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12042 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):

If development is not started on improved stealth aircraft now, it will be time to panic before too long.

Stealth does not counter stealth. A detection system that can detect Stealth will be the counter. I will panic if the US is not working on that now.

An F-18 with a powerful enough radar to detect Stealth and make a kill shot will be sufficient. The question is . . . will the F-18 have such a radar?

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4782 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 11994 times:

Eurofighter completes the lineup of candidates entered for Japan's F-X tender.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...vereign-control-of-typhoon-362596/

Quote:
"BAE Systems has submitted the Eurofighter consortium's proposal for Japan's F-X fighter requirement, describing it as representing a 'cost-effective' solution.

In a media release issued on 26 September, Nigel Whitehead, BAE's group managing director programmes and support, described the Eurofighter Typhoon as 'the most capable deterrent to regional threats'.

Whitehead added: 'Through our ability to offer licensed production, maintenance and technology transfer, Japan can have sovereign control of manufacture, support and upgrade of Typhoon aircraft in Japan by Japanese industry.

We are also able to offer software source codes and other data, giving Japan the ability to develop the aircraft itself to meet its own unique needs, now and in the future'."


.
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=36184


Irrespective of price, this competition will prove whether advanced conventional design could trump stealth technology.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 11875 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
If development is not started on improved stealth aircraft now, it will be time to panic before too long. The clock is ticking and if the government doesn't get their house in order they will find others catching up quite quickly.

You evidently have more confidence in the chinese than I do. The russians have even said they have a good ways to go on their stealth fighter before it can match ours.


User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 11852 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 17):
We are also able to offer software source codes and other data, giving Japan the ability to develop the aircraft itself to meet its own unique needs, now and in the future'."

So they are selling/licensing the design with all the IPs. IMO It makes business sense. Whether Japan can digest it economically is another issue.


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3392 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11670 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 16):
Stealth does not counter stealth. A detection system that can detect Stealth will be the counter. I will panic if the US is not working on that now.

I'm quite sure we already have multiple methods of stealth aircraft detection developed. One example of such is it was found the F117 leaves a hole in the sea of EM that is cell tower signals.

The Trillion dollar question really is, what have we put into hardware, and what have we figure out how to counter in our own aircraft. There is a huge difference from being able to tell there is a stealth aircraft up there somewhere, to effective interception guidance. Then another huge leap to guidence systems for actual weapons.

In the end I think stealth will disolve into only being effective for Haves Vs HaveNots. Wars that are Haves Vs Haves will be little changed from where we were 20 years ago, just the planes, missiles and guns will look more sci-fi than years past.

That said, Haves Vs Havenots doesn't need stealth. You need good uptodate sat photos, and a mixture of conventional planes + long range missiles for well defended targets. Look at the utter ruin of Iraq in 90-91. The F117 was just a bonus and not required at all. Not many nations have gotten any real hardware upgrades since then unless they are a major nation, like.. Russia or China. Which for a nation like japan, does it really matter if its a handful of F35 or F18 if Russia or China come calling with any real intent?


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4782 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10914 times:

Quoting cosmofly (Reply 19):
So they are selling/licensing the design with all the IPs. IMO It makes business sense. Whether Japan can digest it economically is another issue.

Japan had prior manufacturing experience with the F-16 and F-15, so it is plausible. And now, LockMart counters with a sweetener.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-japan-f-35-final-assembly-363326/

Quote:
"Lockheed Martin has dangled the possibility of final assembly of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in front of Japan as part of its plan to win the country's F-X fighter competition.

The US airframer confirmed that final assembly and check out, component manufacture, and F-35 maintenance, repair and overhaul have been included in its response to Tokyo's request for proposals.

'These key fifth-generation production technologies are state-of-the art for the aerospace industry, and will provide Japan with a cornerstone for building long-term industrial leadership,' said Lockheed."



Would this be an offer Japan couldn't refuse?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5366 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10901 times:

Quoting Oroka (Reply 3):
doesn't need to have the stars and bars on it

Stars and stripes. The stars and bars belonged to the Confederate States of America during the Civil War. I daresay an F-22 with the stars and bars might cause some Harry Turtledove fans to wonder if their dream has come true and they've stepped into his universe

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
There were several iterations of the "FB-22" any of which would probably have provided the same if not better capability than the F-35 for less cost. There is potential in the F-22 airframe and there is no reason other than lack of will why it couldn't be adapted into a fine attack aircraft.

If memory serves, not quite. The FB-22 was only supposed to carry 30 250-pound SDBs, I believe, with no capacity for JSOWs, JDAMs, or any other A-G ordnance.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10849 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 18):
You evidently have more confidence in the chinese than I do. The russians have even said they have a good ways to go on their stealth fighter before it can match ours.

These things take time. Sure it will take the Chinese a while to catch up, but it will take us at least as long to try and stay ahead. If we're waiting on the Chinese and Russians, we're already late.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 22):
If memory serves, not quite. The FB-22 was only supposed to carry 30 250-pound SDBs, I believe, with no capacity for JSOWs, JDAMs, or any other A-G ordnance.

That could be taken care of in development. The program got axed in favor of the F-35 way too early.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10815 times:

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 22):
Stars and stripes.

Your flag is the 'Stars and stripes', the roundel on your military aircraft is the 'Star and bars',


25 Post contains links Powerslide : Narrowed down to the F18 and F35. http://www.nikkei.com/news/headline/...E2E0E2E3E38297EAE2E2E2?n_cid=TW001 Translated:
26 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Is Japan even looking for stealth? If not, then the F-18F or F-15SE (which has some stealth capability) would fit the JASDF just fine for the next 20-
27 Post contains links and images AirRyan : According to current philosophy of the IDF, all Japan needs is a BVR AAM truck, and an AESA powered Super Hornet is not only the best bang for the buc
28 Powerslide : Wrong. The JSF can carry 6 internal and 10 external.
29 AirRyan : There have been a lot of things in the LM sales brochure that haven't quite made it past the drawing board, and I don't think the F-22 can ever carry
30 ThePointblank : F-35 will get 6 AIM-120 carriage internal at Block 5, and can hang an additional 6 AIM-120's on the wings. And it will STILL have more range than the
31 AirRyan : But in a decision to be selected next month, Japan isn't in a position (on this F-4 replacement) to bet on hypotheticals. Will the 6 AAM mod be funde
32 KC135TopBoom : I believe there were all 18 F-2Bs (the F-2 trainer version) of the 21 TFS at JST damaged or destroyed by the tsunami. There was not a typhoon involve
33 ThePointblank : 1. Block 5 is funded; otherwise no SDB, AIM-9X Block 2, JSOW, and addition of inverse SAR mode so it can track maritime targets among other things. B
34 Post contains links Devilfish : It seems Japan has already made its choice..... http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...F-X%20Announcement&channel=defense http://www.defense-aeros
35 Post contains links LAXintl : F-35 it is. 42 jets to start with. Some local work share provided to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and IHT Corp. Japan Selects Lockheed Martin F-35 Ligh
36 bennett123 : How stealthy will the F35 be with all this external hardware?.
37 wvsuperhornet : Not very but its wasn't designed to be that way withe external weapons they will be carried internally until the air defenses are knocked out then th
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