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Russian Aircraft Vs. American Aircraft  
User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24735 times:

According to various sources, I heard that the MiG 1.44 and the S-37 Berkut are superior to the F-22, or at least that is what their designers claim. I also heard that some Russian aircraft could pretty much outdo American aircraft in a dogfight. Is this actually true, or I'm I just being paranoid?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24703 times:

BTW, I also heard that the MiG 1.44 was stealthier than the F-22!

User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24664 times:

Unlikely, but in the end in a war the US aircraft would win. Superior radar and fire control systems. Also better tactics using AWACs and combined arms.

Also consider that the US still hasn't released any worthwhile technical information on the F-22.



At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24655 times:

Oh. So there's more stuff about the F-22 that most Americans don't know about yet. And that also means that the Russians don't know everything about the F-22 Big grin

User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24668 times:

"I also heard that some Russian aircraft could pretty much outdo American aircraft in a dogfight."

That's correct, but just in the dogfight. The German MiG-29 squadron in Laage has practiced against pretty much any NATO aircraft, including the USAF and the Swiss Air Force with F-18s, and has ourperformed them in the dogfight due to its high agility and the R-73 missile which is superior to the AIM-9M. This btw led to the decision to develop the IRIS-T missile. However, as PPGMD said, they have to come close to win. The radar and the AMRAAM of the modern western jets is better than the MiG's. They even lost against the F-4Fs of the Luftwaffe...


User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 24650 times:

Well, don't forget that success heavily relies on the skills of the pilot. Even if you had the best fighter jet in the world, it wouldn't be able to do anything without a good pilot.

User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 24627 times:

Also, I think that most American fighters were made to take out an enemy aircraft from a long distance and avoid a dogfight.

User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 24626 times:

BTW, does anyone even know if the MiG 1.44 or S-37 Berkut will spawn production aircraft?

User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 24602 times:

Charleslp:

If you look at pictures of the MIG 1.44 you will see panels that don't have a very good fit along with large protruding fasteners. Not exactly conducive to having a stealthy aircraft. Another thing about the MIG 1.44 or Sukhoi S-37. They are tests beds that may never see production while the F-22 will. So even if (and that's a big if) they are superior to the F-22 it's probably a moot point.

Racko:

If memory serves me correctly the Luftwaffe said of the MIG-29 "impossible to navigate and an inadequate fire control system." As you already know the product support for the MIG-29 left a lot to be desired. Hats off to the technicians of the Laage based MIG-29. Once the AIM-9X comes on line the MIG-29's off axix missile advantage will be negated.


User currently offlineRwalsh1348 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 24594 times:

On the topic of Luftwaffe Mig-29s vs USAF aircraft, here's what the pilots on both sides have to say. The F-16 was giving the 29s a run for their $$ 8 years ago. I'm guessing they've improved more over time. Some pretty good commentary although the article is pretty old:

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1995/articles/jul_95/july2a_95.html


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 24564 times:

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1995/articles/jul_95/july2a_95.html


Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 24549 times:

The MiG 1.44 is deffinetely not going to be produced, the S-37 is extremely likely to follow the same path (despite what they may want you to think, with the renaming and all).

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 24590 times:

Here's a good article about the pro's and con's of the MiG-29, from Johann Koeck, commander of the Luftwaffe MiG-29 squadron.

""The radar is at least a generation behind the AN/APG-65, and is not line-repairable. If we have a radar problem, the aircraft goes back into the hangar. The radar has a poor display, giving poor situational awareness, and this is compounded by the cockpit ergonomics. The radar has reliability problems and lookdown/shootdown problems. There is poor discrimination between targets flying in formation, and we can’t lock onto the target in trail, only onto the lead. We have only the most limited autonomous operating capability."

""But when all that is said and done, the MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircraft’s superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’."

http://www.fabulousfulcrums.de is the Homepage of the JG73 MiG-29 squadron. Under press, you can find articles (unfortunately only in German) from a Swiss newspaper about MiG vs. F-18 dogfights, "Against the MiGs, our Hornets didn't have a sting". There are articles about the Agile Archer in the USA last year, however they don't mention results. But on a German TV show, "n-tv Take Off" they mentioned last year that the MiGs won the pure dogfights, but lost badly bvr against AMRAAM-equipped F-15/F-16s.



User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 24545 times:

Okay, so the MiG is pretty tough dogfighter. That doesn't mean that American aircraft are losers/wimps when it comes to dogfighting does it?

User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 24539 times:

Charleslp:

No, it would not.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16883 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24509 times:

Dogfighting skills don't do anyone justice when the other aircraft has superior "over the horizon" kill capability.

AWACs, Superior radars, and Superior weapons systems give Western Aircraft the edge.

Yes the Soviets might have improved the dog fight capability, but Western tactics, training, weapons systems, radars, and AWACs are overwhelming.

To use a boxing analogy, the Russian migs are brawlers like Mike Tyson up close , but are very vulnerable to boxers with greater reach.




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 24471 times:

Berkut is a technology demonstrator. Unless it's changed a lot since rollout it didn't look stealthy at all to me. Far too many sharp edges etc.
It IS quite agile, which might present a problem for the F-22 if it lets the Berkut in close.

MiG i.44 never went anywhere, though ideas from the model were used in the later MiG jettrainer (which also didn't survive AFAIK).



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24431 times:

I think this shows a difference in thinking that starting in the 1970's.

The US kept developing systems that pushed the range that you could score a kill out farther, To the point that I don't believe there was a single non-amraam kill during the first Persian gulf war.

The soviets however believed that all combat would degrade down to a close-in turning dogfight and the Mig-29 clearly was designed with that philosophy in mind.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24444 times:

I think one HUGE advantage for USAF and US Navy pilots is the fact they have very realistic air combat schools like Top Gun and Red Flag to hone their skills. With that type of training, American fighter pilots can outfight a MiG-29 or Su-27/30 fighter.

It should be noted that once the US Navy started the Top Gun program in the late 1960's F-4 pilots flying from US Navy carriers by 1972 had an amazing 14 to 1 kill ratio--pretty good considering the F-4 was nowhere near as manueverable as the MiG-17's the North Vietnamese AF pilots favored in air combat.

By the way, the new Matra/BAe Meteor missile that is now in advanced development could probably be carried on the F-15C, F-16C, and F/A-18E in addition to the planned installation on the Eurofighter Typhoon; this gives the ability to engage targets probably as far as 80 miles away! I don't think the Russians have any missiles that are carried on the MiG-29 and Su-27/30 that can hit a target that far away.


User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 24384 times:

There were four non-Amraam kills during the Gulf War. The first was the 2 choppers downed by the A-10's main guns, which were the first two air to air kills of the war. The other two were at the end of the war, one was another chopper hovering that had a LGB / KLGB), USA - California">LGB dropped on it by an F-15E on strike mission. The final one was a trainer that was used to attack a settlement in Northern Iraq, he saw the American fighter jet behind him, said something to the effect of "Oh shit" and punched out. The fighter pilot was credited for the kill by the higher ups.

Credit: Most of it Every Man a Tiger by Tom Clancey and Chuck Horner.

[Edited 2003-04-18 16:15:40]


At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 24401 times:

The were no AMRAAM kills during the Gulf War as the AIM-120 did not enter service until right after the war was over. The AIM-7 was still the workhorse back then. The Fulcrum and Flanker families of aircraft were designed to carry such missiles as the AA-10 and (later on) the AA-12, which roughly correspond to the AIM-7 and AIM-120 respectively.

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 24393 times:

Wasn't aware of those but note that not one of those kills involved a fighter on fighter combat.

There are three engaged helicopters and one trainer with a pilot changing



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 24345 times:

Mostly posted it as a joke. I find it find that some of the first air to air kills in the war and some of the last air to air kills in the war were done without using any air to air weapons.


At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3376 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (11 years 6 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 24281 times:

Are BVR missiles still usefull? For as far as I can see the the allies let the adversaries come in closer in order to make a positive identification. They no longer shoot at everything that may be bad in order to prevent friendly-fire.

If this is true, I might be wrong, then having medium range missiles will do. Manouverability (spelling?) would be nice as well.


Another advantage of the Russian planes is that they can operate from rough field. I do not believe that a F16 can take off from a mudfield. A mig-29 can when the field is reasonably level. Apparently maintenance is also easier because they were designed to be maintained by conscripts???



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineCharleslp From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 6 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 24275 times:

I guess when it comes to aircraft, most Russian fighters were made to take off from highways or even a spot where there is NO pavement at all, like in a dirt field or something. Besides, I'm sure that if the U.S. wanted to produce aircraft with excellent maneuverability, I'm sure it could. But as of right now, the U.S. is developing something that has stealth and speed with fairly good maneuverability, which is basically planned for roles such as fast deployment and such.

25 Post contains images LY744 : BTW, just wanted to point out that various modifications of the Fulcrum (and others) family that came out in the mid to late 90's (but have seen littl
26 Post contains images Charleslp : To my knowledge, the only American aircraft to have been exported in large numbers (400+ worldwide) is the F-16 Fighting Falcon and maybe the F-18 Hor
27 Post contains images Charleslp : Ignore that photo isnert in the last post. I was trying to insert this:
28 Spacepope : Do we really have to get into the history of Soviet shipbuilding and discuss why this is not much of a threat? They were designed poorly, and were for
29 2912n : Interesting post...but that is where combined force options become important... First you have to have the intel assets to let you know what is coming
30 Charleslp : Okay, maybe my topic was a little far-fetched. It was more a "What if..." question anyway.
31 Post contains images 2912n : I find nothing wrong with a "what if" topic. Gets us amatuers thinking a little. Perhaps the scenario cited above is too far fetched. But what about t
32 STT757 : Countries like Russia etc can build aircraft carriers, but they are almost worthless without the Battlegroup. The US Aircraft Carrier battlegroups fea
33 Sovietjet : Listen guys what the Soviet Union had in 1991 before it broke up was as good as any western plane if not better. However, after the breakup the financ
34 Post contains images 2912n : Ahhh, Soviet, I think you are wrong. There are quite a few Russian built a/c flying that could be potentially considered a threat today. If we all tho
35 Petertenthije : How is the western system more flexible. Every shot has to be accounted for these days to prevent friendly fire. The same was the case at the time by
36 2912n : The western system of command and control has always allowed more decision making throughout the chain of command. Certainly rules of engagement take
37 Charleslp : Okay, so maybe some MiGs and Sukhois are much faster, maneuverable, and probably much cheaper than American aircraft. And maybe Russian aircraft can p
38 2912n : Charles- You are trying to make it too simple. As noted above there will be issues with command and control, levels of pilot training, the rules of en
39 Sovietjet : 2912n - I know that there are plenty of Russian aircraft flying right now that are a threat and that are great aircraft. I never said every russian pl
40 PPGMD : The Russians have always been able to build and design excellent aircraft, but they have always lacked the technological refinment. Take a look at wha
41 Post contains images 2912n : Soviet- I think you got my messages crossed...more of my comments were directed to Charles. The problem with discussing a USSR vs US/NATO conflict is
42 Post contains images Charleslp : Fortunately, the USSR no longer exists. Although Russia still has formidable aircraft, it would be kind of silly to think that they are a direct threa
43 Sovietjet : PPGMD - The USSR was indeed a little behind the US technologically but not as to have caused the US to have "spanked" them. F-117? Gimme a break. That
44 Essentialpowr : Sovietjet - you clearly make the point that the former Soviet Union was clearly in the "catchup and react" position throughout the cold war, as oppose
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