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Rafale Vs Typhoon Again In The UAE  
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4889 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 21292 times:

In another twist to this much talked-about deal, the UAE has now requested a Typhoon proposal from the Eurofighter consortium.....

.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...urofighter-typhoon-request-364701/

Quote:
"France’s long-running campaign to sell up to 60 Dassault Rafales to the United Arab Emirates faces a shock last-minute challenge, with the Eurofighter consortium having been asked to submit a proposal based on its Typhoon combat aircraft."


Related article.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...um-on-rafale-uae-prospects-364746/


Shrewd bargaining or wary of having the only Rafale fleet outside of France?

[Edited 2011-11-13 06:35:06]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 21104 times:

Looks like a mean of putting one last layer of pressure on the french negociators (as it has been the case before when they requested a proposal for the Super Hornet from Boeing). Given the french presence over there, I would be suprised if UAE go for the Eurofighter, and I would say UAE has to go for the Rafale just like South Corea had to go for the F15 a few years back. I don't think it is in UAE interest to pee off the french right now...But at the end you never know, it wouldn't be the first time something unexpected happens to the Rafale...


Stephane
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 21104 times:

I'm thinking Typhoon wins this one. While Typhoon is a better A2A a/c than Rafale, which was designed with A2G in mind, the Tranche 3 a/c will have a much better A2G capability than early models. As well, adjacent to UAE, RSAF operate Typhoon, and the Royal Omani AF have just ordered it.

As well, while Typhoon is expensive, Rafale is really expensive, unless the French government are willing to sweeten the deal to clinch it. Whatever sweeteners France offers, I'm sure Eurofighter would match it for a 60-ish frame order.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 21064 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
As well, while Typhoon is expensive, Rafale is really expensive, unless the French government are willing to sweeten the deal to clinch it. Whatever sweeteners France offers, I'm sure Eurofighter would match it for a 60-ish frame order

Rafale is usually much cheaper, I suggest you do some research...
On top of that France has offered to buy UAE Mirage 2000-9 back, who is gonna buy these 2000-9 if UAE go for Typhoon?

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
While Typhoon is a better A2A a/c than Rafale

I agree with that, but it is not about which aircraft is best in this particular role, it is about which country is more prepared to support UEA in case of trouble in the long term. France has set up an air base over there and I believe is planning to install a huge radar station there to monitor what is going on in Iran. Appart from France, I am not aware of any other country showing the same level of commitment to UAE.



Stephane
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 21016 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 3):
Rafale is usually much cheaper,

Effectivement... mais pas dans ce cas, parait-il.

Indeed... but not in this case, so it seems.

By the way, some info about what has been going on in the background can be found here (in French):

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...fale-dans-le-ciel-d-abu-dhabi.html

Some points from the article:

- in 2007 Nicolas Sarkozy wanted to form a French "team" to speak with a single voice in order to win big international tenders - civil and military and particularly with regard to Rafale.

- Claude Guéant, then secretary general of the Élysée, was appointed captain to bring strategy and coherence to "France's team".

- Claude Guéant having moved to the ministry of the Interior, cacophany seems to have returned to this team deprived of a captain.

- the new secretary general of the Élysée, Xavier Musca, does not really have the time to deal with Rafale, given the euro crisis

- the Rafale file is passed to General Benoît Puga. He was responsible for managing the French military intervention in Libya and seems less suited to this kind of file.

- Abu Dhabi restarted negotiations in the summer. A number of visitors came to extol the virtues of Rafale. "There were too many people talking to the Emirates, from industry but also far too many from the French state," a source from the (French) Ministry of Defence confirms. "The (French) state has too many fingers in the pie."

- Abu Dhabi finds the goings on more and more incomprehensible. To the point where a furious Cheikh Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, crown prince of Abu Dhabi, who is under the impression that the French have stopped listening to him, makes a flying visit to see Nicolas Sarkozy. The visit does not advance Rafale's cause one inch: the French President has been badly briefed, thinking that everything had been sorted out with Rafale, and starts the meeting off talking about regional politics. Cheikh Mohamed leaves Paris empty handed.

Since Cheikh Mohamed went to Paris to ask Sarkozy (among other things) for a reduction in Rafale price, France should not be too surprised if UAE says "Enough is enough. Forget Rafale. We'll buy something else."

[Edited 2011-11-14 04:44:20]

User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20958 times:

Quoting art (Reply 4):
By the way, some info about what has been going on in the background can be found here (in French):

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-....html

Merci!

Quoting art (Reply 4):
The visit does not advance Rafale's cause one inch: the French President has been badly briefed

that reminds me the morocan Rafale deal disaster....



Stephane
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 20941 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 5):
Quoting art (Reply 4):
The visit does not advance Rafale's cause one inch: the French President has been badly briefed

that reminds me the morocan Rafale deal disaster....

And what did Morocco buy instead of Rafale - F-16. And which country already operates very advanced F-16's, making a top up order very cheap compared with introducing a new type such as Rafale or Typhoon? UAE. I can see UAE ordering more F-16's then waiting to see what happens with F-35 and looking to buy that later.


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 20912 times:

That's an interesting (and possible) scenario, but I would not go to far in comparing the moroccan deal with that one. In this particular deal (UAE) there are a number of things in the strategic background which put the french plane in a stronger position as said in my previous posts.


Stephane
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20829 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 3):
On top of that France has offered to buy UAE Mirage 2000-9 back,

We have all read that the UAE was asking France to buy back the Mirage 2000-9s as a condition for the Rafale sale. But I haven't seen anything confirming that the French had acceded to it.

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/dubai11/emptys/89474/dassault-mirage-2000-9-dubai-2011.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...sault-mirage-2000-9-dubai-2011.jpg

Quoting flagon (Reply 3):
who is gonna buy these 2000-9 if UAE go for Typhoon?

As had been posted on here a few times before, a number of former Warsaw Pact countries were looking to replace their legacy assets but couldn't afford brand-new fighters. If the UAE is not forbidden by onward-sale clauses in the original Mirage contract, and willing to sell those for a reasonable price, I think countries needing to share in combat air patrols for being in the alliance would be very interested (provided Dassault commits to support them). Those -9s are quite capable and relatively new, and could serve another twenty years or so, alongside other NATO allies.

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/sharpshot/emptys/89462/mirage-2000.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...pshot/emptys/89462/mirage-2000.jpg

Quoting art (Reply 6):
And which country already operates very advanced F-16's, making a top up order very cheap compared with introducing a new type such as Rafale or Typhoon? UAE. I can see UAE ordering more F-16's then waiting to see what happens with F-35 and looking to buy that later.

Indeed there was talk of a split buy, and the Americans are just waiting in the wings.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/

Quote:
"Quick summary: Dassault Rafale still in, Saab Gripen still out, Eurofighter Typhoon made a surprise entrance, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 is now lurking and Boeing throws F-15 Silent Eagle into the mix.

[.....]

But the toll of the prolonged negotiations could be even greater for the Rafale. According to Kahwaji, who is well connected in Abu Dhabi, the UAE has already informed Dassault that the deal has been reduced from 60 fighters, with the balance shifted to a follow-on order of some number of F-16 Block 60s. Northrop Grumman, which supplies the APG-80 agile beam radar for the Block 60, confirmed this strategy today. Northrop told my colleague Greg Waldron that the UAE is considering a follow-on order for the Block 60. We asked Lockheed to confirm, but company officials declined."



Exciting times!   



[Edited 2011-11-14 10:52:29]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1084 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 20475 times:

"UAE Declines France's Rafale Deal"

"Thanks to President Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," bin Zayed said, according to WAM, the Emirati official news agency.

"Regrettably Dassault seem unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms," he said.

Another quote:

"The price is ridiculous," the source said.


http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=8271432&c=ASI&s=AIR

""This is now an open competition," the Gulf source said. "It is going to take months to go through the offers and compare the data."

No deal is expected in the near future."


Well I guess we will be waiting for a while on this deal??

[Edited 2011-11-16 07:07:24]


harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 20465 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 3):
Rafale is usually much cheaper, I suggest you do some research...
On top of that France has offered to buy UAE Mirage 2000-9 back, who is gonna buy these 2000-9 if UAE go for Typhoon?

Reply 9 below seems to buttress my contention about Rafale's price.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 9):
Another quote:

"The price is ridiculous," the source said.

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=8...s=AIR

As for who will take the 2000-9s, well, Iraq is a possibility. They have a need and they have the cash.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 20412 times:

They seem very emotional in that part of the world, first of all a big slap in Dassault's face, then Qatar airline CEO lashing Airbus...not quite the kind of reaction we see in western country Air Shows...


Stephane
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20404 times:

Quoting art (Reply 4):
The visit does not advance Rafale's cause one inch: the French President has been badly briefed, thinking that everything had been sorted out with Rafale, and starts the meeting off talking about regional politics. Cheikh Mohamed leaves Paris empty handed
Quoting mffoda (Reply 9):
"Thanks to President Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," bin Zayed said

I am confused by these newspaper quotes which don't seem to tell the same stories about Sarkozy's contribution to the Rafale deal, something is not quite right...



Stephane
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20391 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):

As for who will take the 2000-9s, well, Iraq is a possibility. They have a need and they have the cash.

Alas, the Iraqi cash went to someone else.....      

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/dubai11/emptys/89473/uae-air-force-lockheed-martin-f-16-dubai-2011.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...ockheed-martin-f-16-dubai-2011.jpg

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...eks-F-16-Fighters-05057/#more-5057

Quote:
"Sept 28/11: The Pentagon confirms that Iraq has an F-16 contract:

'The Iraqi government has transferred its first payment for 18 F-16C fighter aircraft, bringing Iraq closer to independently securing its airspace, Pentagon Press Secretary George Little said yesterday…. The fighters are the block 50/52 variant of the aircraft…'

Other reports place that payment's value at $1.5 billion, and Defense News says that this will extend the F-16’s production line to 2015. US DoD | Defense News"


http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/sharpshot/emptys/89424/lockheed-martin-f-16.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...tys/89424/lockheed-martin-f-16.jpg



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20361 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 13):
Alas, the Iraqi cash went to someone else.....


But not all the cash, as their oil reserves are quite extensive. And sweet oil, too. The 2000-9s would come at pretty discounted prices, too, since they're used.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 20193 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 10):
As for who will take the 2000-9s, well, Iraq is a possibility. They have a need and they have the cash.
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 13):
Alas, the Iraqi cash went to someone else.....

Would Lybia be a possibility?
Once things are settled down there (which might take a while), I guess they will need to reconstitute an air force....



Stephane
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 20162 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 12):
Quoting art (Reply 4):
The visit does not advance Rafale's cause one inch: the French President has been badly briefed, thinking that everything had been sorted out with Rafale, and starts the meeting off talking about regional politics. Cheikh Mohamed leaves Paris empty handed

Quoting mffoda (Reply 9):
"Thanks to President Sarkozy, France could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal," bin Zayed said

I am confused by these newspaper quotes which don't seem to tell the same stories about Sarkozy's contribution to the Rafale deal, something is not quite right...


Mmmm... I think these words of bin Zayed are the words of a diplomat. He does not ask why France did not put more pressure on Dassault to help win this contract - not difficult, when you are Dassault's only source of income from Rafale. He does not mention the disorder in the French administration as far as managing this enquiry is concerned, reported to have made him furious.


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 20029 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 15):
Would Lybia be a possibility?

funinly enough, according to the source below (in french sorry), in case of successful sale of Rafale to EAU, the plan would be sell the -9 to the Lybian army...

http://www.lepoint.fr/chroniqueurs-d...e-marbre-17-11-2011-1397438_53.php

there is a summary of the main agreements in english in the link below, which is an excellent source of information about Rafale...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ead.php?137433-Rafale-News/page175

"Alain Juppe in charge of 2 negotiations:
- To complete the sale to UAE
- To ensure the resale of the UAE Mirage 2000-9 to the Libyan Army (source: Tactical Report and confirmed in Paris)"



Stephane
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 19857 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 15):
Would Lybia be a possibility? Once things are settled down there (which might take a while), I guess they will need to reconstitute an air force....

Libya is certainly possible considering France's contribution to the rebels' cause there, and the fact that only one F-1C remains from the four Dassault-refurbished frames. Though as you say, they will need to sort out their priorities first.....while the West carefully establishes the new dispensation's bona fides.


Quoting flagon (Reply 17):
in case of successful sale of Rafale to EAU, the plan would be sell the -9 to the Lybian army...

What happens if the Rafale loses in the UAE? And (if they still exist as a unit) doesn't the Libyan Air Force have a say?

Quoting flagon (Reply 17):
- To ensure the resale of the UAE Mirage 2000-9 to the Libyan Army (source: Tactical Report and confirmed in Paris)"

Would (and could) they still proceed with the Mirage 2000-9 sale to Libya or anybody else should the Rafale fail in its quest in the UAE?

[Edited 2011-11-18 12:00:53]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19821 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 18):
Would (and could) they still proceed with the Mirage 2000-9 sale to Libya or anybody else should the Rafale fail in its quest in the UAE?

Well in my understanding, finding a buyer for these 2000-9's is UAE's problem really, so clearly I don't quite see why the french would bother facilitating that sell if UAE finally decide to walk away from Rafale?



Stephane
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17696 times:

It seems like the UAE - Rafale deal is maturing....


FRANCE Dassault Aviation Close To Jet-Fighter Deal With UAE - Report
PARIS (Dow Jones)--French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation SA (AM.FR) could soon close another long-awaited deal, this time with the United Arab Emirates for the supply of 60 Rafale jet fighters, La Tribune reported Thursday on its website without citing sources.


I also read Sarkozy is planning to visit UAE in the next few weeks, rumours say a deal could be agreed beginning of march and still mention the possiblity of offering part or all of UAE mirage 2000-9's to the Lybian army...

wait and see



Stephane
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17688 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 20):
rumours say a deal could be agreed beginning of march

sorry correction, beginning of April not March, according to some french newspapers



Stephane
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17572 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 20):
and still mention the possiblity of offering part or all of UAE mirage 2000-9's to the Lybian army...

One wonders for how much the UAE would let those go? And if the now free Libyans feel indebted enough to France to accept what Dassault would charge them?



Back on topic, things are definitely looking better for the Rafale.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/rafale/images/90861/rafale-displaying-at-paris-air-show-2011.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...playing-at-paris-air-show-2011.jpg


[Edited 2012-02-03 08:51:02]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 17101 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 22):
One wonders for how much the UAE would let those go?

I guess that's what makes this deal further complicated, but that's also what makes you think that the chances of any other competitor (including Typhoon) are quite slim....

For info
According to same source:
"Citing unidentified sources, the paper said on its website that President Nicolas Sarkozy would go to the UAE in March or early April when the contract is likely to be finalised."
"La Tribune said there were a few technical details still to be ironed out, but that they were easy to resolve. It added that as part of the deal Paris would take back the Emirates' existing Dassault-made Mirage fighters."
"Qatar, a close French ally, said last year it wanted to replace its fleet of Miragefighter jets during 2012 possibly buying 24 to 36 units. Kuwait in 2010 said it was also considering buying Rafales to replace its ageing Mirage fleet."
"My wish is that the UAE makes a decision that allows two neighbours that want inter-operability with it to make decisions," Longuet said in January when asked about potential contracts in Qatar and Kuwait.

Let's wait and see.



Stephane
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2772 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

UAE opts out of Typhoon Eurofighter jet talks, BAE Systems says



Read more: http://www.thenational.ae/uae/techno...lks-bae-systems-says#ixzz2nxOjmVWn



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3791 posts, RR: 11
Reply 25, posted (10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 7084 times:

The UAE doesn't order military aircraft at the pace it does civilian ones...

Since the moment the whole thing started, Emirates has had time to order 3 or 400 airframes.

This makes the Brazilian and Indian orders seem dizzyingly quick in comparison.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4889 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5190 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 24):
UAE opts out of Typhoon Eurofighter jet talks, BAE Systems says

This could be the reason.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-for-quotblock-61quot-f-16-395235/

Quote:
"A routine disclosure by the US Department of Defense reveals the UAE has increased the size and scope of a potential Lockheed Martin F-16 order, which now includes a mysterious “Block 61” designation.

The UAE government is continuing to negotiate a direct commercial sale with Lockheed, but the number of fighters in discussion has increased from 25 to 30, according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency notice to Congress posted on 24 January.

The DSCA normally does not become involved in commercial sales, but the potential F-16 deal with the UAE could include support equipment that must be covered under a foreign military sale that requires congressional notification. The $270 million price tag of the proposed support equipment pales in comparison to the value of the commercial sale of the fighters.

Last April, a senior defence official who briefed reporters said that a sale of 25 F-16s to the UAE could be worth slightly less than $5 billion.

The UAE is now negotiating to buy 30 F-16s, the new DSCA notice says. If the average cost of the fighters remains about $200 million, the value of the deal could rise by nearly $1 billion with five more aircraft."



In which case the title of this thread would become irrelevant. Are we going to see this in a new guise?...  spin  ...


http://www.stratpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/LMF16V.jpg
http://www.stratpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/LMF16V.jpg

[Edited 2014-01-27 17:50:59]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently onlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4732 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 26):
In which case the title of this thread would become irrelevant. Are we going to see this in a new guise?... spin ...

Already beaten you:

Dsca Notice For 30 New F-16 Block 61's For UAE (by ThePointblank Jan 24 2014 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)


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