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Why I Love Russian Spaceflight  
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1627 posts, RR: 7
Posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5805 times:

I was watching a Youtube video of the last preperations for Expedition 30 launch tomorrow in Baikoenoer, and I almost fell of my chair when the video hit 1:33. Is that what I think it is? The same stuff I used a few months ago in my bathroom??!

At least I used the official application gun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWd3-oh2Dbo


Live From Amsterdam!
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5765 times:

Thanks for sharing this.
I am glad you started this thread.
As part of my engineering degree I have spent six months at the Samara Aerospace University (Russian Federation), and I am now a bit familiar with the russian approach in terms of engineering.
In our western countries we like making fun of russians and their rustic methods, as it is true it would take half a life to fully understand and integrate russian culture I recon.
We tend to forget a bit too quickly that the Soyuz space launch, mostly based and pretty straight forward technologies from the fifties, is simply and by far the most reliable of its category (despite recent incidents).
I think the russian way gives another dimension to the word "pragmatism".



Stephane
User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5760 times:

I believe they even launch their vessels (in coop with ESA I think) from Kourou now , the closer proximity to the
equator giving it some extra payload capacity.

Also ,I wonder how far the new Russian spacebase (Vostochny Space Center) has come ?
I think many people feared that the Russians would have to give up on space completely past the fall of the Soviet
empire but the world has been pleasantly surprised to see them keeping their interest in space very much alive,
even if they suffered from severe budgetary issues for a long time.



[edit post]
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14072 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5756 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 1):
We tend to forget a bit too quickly that the Soyuz space launch, mostly based and pretty straight forward technologies from the fifties, is simply and by far the most reliable of its category (despite recent incidents).

The recent incidents were apparently mainly caused by a lack of quality control and sloppy workmanship on a normally excellent design.
The reason is that back in the Soviet Union aerospace technicians were considered a national elite and therefore wellpaid, so that only the best and brightest were admitted, but after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the best university graduates either went into diffenerent, better paid, fields of engineering or left the country, and government support for the space programme sunk, so that they couldn´t get equally qualified and dedicated staff to replace the good technicians from the cold war, who were now retiring.

Jan


User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1627 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5747 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 1):
bit familiar with the russian approach in terms of engineering.

If you have any stories about this please share them 
Quoting flagon (Reply 1):
We tend to forget a bit too quickly that the Soyuz space launch, mostly based and pretty straight forward technologies from the fifties, is simply and by far the most reliable of its category (despite recent incidents).

Ow I know, I really admire their safety record when it comes to human spaceflight, and I have an incredible soft spot for russian rocket design and the Soyuz.

But to get back to my question, was that really plastic bathroom filler they were using?  



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Thread starter):
The same stuff I used a few months ago in my bathroom??!
At least I used the official application gun

Looking at the video a bit closer, you would see that it's a squeeze tube, like those used for toothpaste - so no official application gun there
Second, this is the area experiencing high heat load during atmospheric flight. It's a mating of emergency escape assembly to the craft at the very tip of the rocket - so it must be able to withstand some thermal load. So probably it's a bit special formulation, even if packed in commercially available packaging. It may very well be a standard product - but probably industrial grade for high thermal load areas, somewhat different from one used in your bathroom. Same thing may be used in kitchen stove or chimney, though..


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 4):
But to get back to my question, was that really plastic bathroom filler they were using?

That wouldn't surprise me too much

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 2):
I believe they even launch their vessels (in coop with ESA I think) from Kourou now

Exciting times indeed, France launched 5 military satellites from Kourou using a Soyuz on friday night the 16th. These russian rockets in that part of the world... I am not being sarcastic here but I find that at least as exotic as the russian balistic missiles in Cuba in 1963....



Stephane
User currently onlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5412 times:
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Quoting kalvado (Reply 5):
Looking at the video a bit closer, you would see that it's a squeeze tube, like those used for toothpaste - so no official application gun there
Second, this is the area experiencing high heat load during atmospheric flight. It's a mating of emergency escape assembly to the craft at the very tip of the rocket - so it must be able to withstand some thermal load. So probably it's a bit special formulation, even if packed in commercially available packaging. It may very well be a standard product - but probably industrial grade for high thermal load areas, somewhat different from one used in your bathroom. Same thing may be used in kitchen stove or chimney, though..

From the location of the application, and the type of joint it's being applied to, I'd guess this is for weather proofing while on the ground. After all, this thing has to stand out in the rain or snow for weeks or months, keeping the inside dry is probably a major priority.

Most caulks of that nature are simply not going to stand up to much in the way of aerodynamic or thermal loads, and at speed, you don't really need a sealant, since the supersonic flow (or even high subsonic flow) will simply pass over the joint. The sealer might well cause more drag from its disruption of the boundary layer than sealing the gap perfectly could save.

And yes, inexpensive, off-the-shelf, silicone caulk would probably work just fine for that application.

ed:typo

[Edited 2011-12-20 23:51:03]

User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

Quoting rwessel (Reply 7):
After all, this thing has to stand out in the rain or snow for weeks or months, keeping the inside dry is probably a major priority.

eeee..... It's not Space "delayed by another month" Shuttle - it's Soyuz.. Even original R-7 was not designed to stand on a pad for more than a few days, I'm afraid. And it's not that the desert where Baikonur is located is known for major rains.


User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

Quoting kalvado (Reply 8):
Even original R-7 was not designed to stand on a pad for more than a few days, I'm afraid. And it's not that the desert where Baikonur is located is known for major rains.

Just saw the launch of the latest soyuz to ISS with Dutch mission specialist A kuiper being blast of with 2 of his
collegues, I think they rolled out the rocket on Friday and now , after 48 hrs they're up and away, another succesful launch
looked very uneventful, which is a good thing.
Seemed mighty cold on the cosmodrome but rather dry.

Once more thumbs up for the Russkies, next thing to look out for is the new pod being tested now by SPACEX, the
Dragon program which eventually ,by 2015, will also be able to take up until 7 people at once.

Also interesting to look out for is the final part of the Dawn mission, a first glimps how a waterworld might look like
besides our own Earth (Ceres).
http://dawn.jpl.nasa.gov/



[edit post]
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10905 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

Expedition 30 astronauts docked to the ISS today. Saw the livecast from the Russia central command with the families after the hatch opening ceremony. The multi-national 3 members crew looked well. They will be spending 2 months up in the ISS. Lucky people!

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinezanl188 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 3546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4928 times:
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Russians also had a launch failure with a unmanned Soyuz booster this morning. Not the exact same booster as used for Progress and Soyuz spacecraft but very close.


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User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4789 times:

Quoting kalvado (Reply 8):
And it's not that the desert where Baikonur is located is known for major rains.

Watch the previous launch of Soyuz TMA-22. It was launched in a freaking blizzard. You could barely see the ship on the launch pad and it was gone from view like 10 seconds later (the camera could no longer see it).
Baikonour gets the pretty messed up weather. No tropical rains, but blizzards, sandstorms and just really strong winds. Really strong. That thing has to stand up to quite something.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinedreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 1):
As part of my engineering degree I have spent six months at the Samara Aerospace University (Russian Federation), and I am now a bit familiar with the russian approach in terms of engineering.
In our western countries we like making fun of russians and their rustic methods, as it is true it would take half a life to fully understand and integrate russian culture I recon.

There is a famous story about how NASA, in the 60s, realized that pens don't work in zero-G. They created a project to create a ball-point pen that would work, and hired PaperMate to develop it for several million dollars. You can still buy those pens today - if you open it up and look at the cartridge, there is a little plastic pump button to create positive pressure behind the ink so it will write in Zero G, upside down etc.

The Soviets used a pencil.

I'm sure the story was exaggerated, but I worked in the Former Soviet Republics throughout the 90s, and I actually enjoyed watching how Russians applied a "whatever works" attitude in regards to overcoming engineering problems - particularly in regards to making their own spare parts for western machinery.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6484 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4161 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 13):
The Soviets used a pencil.

If I was an astronaut, then I would go for the American approach.

Somehow I don't like the idea of potentially having graphite dust floating around in a zero-G environment. At least not with delicate electronics on board. And a broken pencil wouldn't be funny at all. Hopefully all bits end up in the filter in the air processing machinery, but....

But I am not an astronaut, and will never be one. So maybe it's just me?

Anyhow, a nice story, even if I don't believe the million $$$ spring loaded piston in the ink tube one minute.

In fact things were quite different, if not opposite, in the early days of space flight. And I am old enough to remember Gagarin's flight. Many private companies developed various minor gadgets for free for NASA, only to be able to brag about it.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 14):
Anyhow, a nice story, even if I don't believe the million $$$ spring loaded piston in the ink tube one minute.

That story's been around for a long, long time. Long enough for me to believe it. Along with the coffee maker for the C-5 that would work even if the a/c was inverted.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1627 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4113 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 14):
delicate electronics on board

I'm pretty sure Russian spacecraft don't contain delicate electronics 



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 13):
There is a famous story about how NASA, in the 60s, realized that pens don't work in zero-G. They created a project to create a ball-point pen that would work, and hired PaperMate to develop it for several million dollars. You can still buy those pens today - if you open it up and look at the cartridge, there is a little plastic pump button to create positive pressure behind the ink so it will write in Zero G, upside down etc.
Quoting dreadnought (Reply 13):
The Soviets used a pencil.

This is also the story we tell in french aerospace high schools, along with other stories on how "space" lavatories were designed in russia compared to the american ones... A lot of fun indeed  



Stephane
User currently onlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3959 times:
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Quoting dreadnought (Reply 13):
There is a famous story about how NASA, in the 60s, realized that pens don't work in zero-G. They created a project to create a ball-point pen that would work, and hired PaperMate to develop it for several million dollars. You can still buy those pens today - if you open it up and look at the cartridge, there is a little plastic pump button to create positive pressure behind the ink so it will write in Zero G, upside down etc.

The Soviets used a pencil.

I'm sure the story was exaggerated, but I worked in the Former Soviet Republics throughout the 90s, and I actually enjoyed watching how Russians applied a "whatever works" attitude in regards to overcoming engineering problems - particularly in regards to making their own spare parts for western machinery.

The story is cute, but basically completely false.

On all Mercury and Gemini flights, the astronauts used pencils, just like the Soviets. Fisher developed their "space pen" at a reported cost of about one million dollars, completely on their own dime. And while NASA had samples, they didn't really push to adopt it until after the Apollo 1 fire, when the all metal (except for the ink) pen was attractive for its fire resistance. The lack of shavings and broken bits falling off was also an attraction. That was a bit of a worry in Mercury and Gemini), but not one that was causing any major concerns in Apollo.


User currently offlinejollo From Italy, joined Aug 2011, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 17):
This is also the story we tell in french aerospace high schools, along with other stories on how "space" lavatories were designed in russia compared to the american ones

I'm almost afraid to ask but... please do tell the french version of the story!   


User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4359 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3886 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 14):
Anyhow, a nice story, even if I don't believe the million $$$ spring loaded piston in the ink tube one minute.

In fact things were quite different, if not opposite, in the early days of space flight. And I am old enough to remember Gagarin's flight. Many private companies developed various minor gadgets for free for NASA, only to be able to brag about it.

  

Quote:
NASA programs previously used pencils (for example a 1965 order of mechanical pencils[2]) but because of the substantial dangers that broken-off pencil tips and graphite dust pose in zero gravity to electronics and the flammable nature of the wood present in pencils[2] a better solution was needed. NASA never approached Paul Fisher to develop a pen, nor did Fisher receive any government funding for the pen's development. Fisher invented it independently, and then asked NASA to try it. After the introduction of the AG7 Space Pen, both the American and Soviet (later Russian) space agencies adopted it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1627 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

Quoting jollo (Reply 19):

Quoting flagon (Reply 17):
This is also the story we tell in french aerospace high schools, along with other stories on how "space" lavatories were designed in russia compared to the american ones

I'm almost afraid to ask but... please do tell the french version of the story!

Not an answer to your question, but IIRC the lavatories on the ISS are based on the original Russian design, so they must have some good qualities  

But I am too very curious about those stories 



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1327 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3595 times:
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Quoting connies4ever (Reply 15):
the C-5 that would work even if the a/c was inverted

How do you invert AC? (hint, you can't, you can shift the phase 180 degrees, but that is not the same).

Now - maybe it has something to do with an power inverter which converts DC to AC - so maybe the coffee maker works on DC and AC.



rcair1
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined exactly 8 years ago today! , 3546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3593 times:
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Quoting rcair1 (Reply 22):
How do you invert AC?

Poster is speaking of the AirCraft not electricity.



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User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3955 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

Quoting rwessel (Reply 18):
The story is cute, but basically completely false.

Oh, that's a pity. Still good to hear the truth. I always wondered, thanks.

Quoting jollo (Reply 19):
please do tell the french version of the story!

Yes!



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
25 Post contains links connies4ever : Quite, I am. But a not uncommon error. There ARE, however, AC to DC inverters. Basically if you look at the AC signal as a sinusoid, the inverter "cl
26 MD11Engineer : Actually any bridge full wave rectifier will do this job. Though I think with extremely high voltages and currents involved, as in long distance powe
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