as739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 5820 posts, RR: 23 Posted (1 year 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 9155 times:
Just seems a little off that they only order 4. I don't follow military as most of you on here, so I have to ask, is this testing the waters with ordering only 4?
The Japan Ministry of Defense has announced its selection of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II as the Japan Air Self Defense Force's next generation fighter aircraft, following the F-X competitive bid process. The United States government offered the F-35A conventional takeoff and landing variant under the F-X competition. The initial contract will be for four jets in Japan’s fiscal year 2012, which begins April 1. (www.examiner.com)
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1065 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8494 times:
This order could prompt a South Korean order for F-35's as well. They have a fleet of F-4's that also needs replacement, and the F-35 has been mentioned multiple times as a candidate for the third stage of their F-X program.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2069 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8243 times:
Quoting as739x (Thread starter): Just seems a little off that they only order 4. I don't follow military as most of you on here, so I have to ask, is this testing the waters with ordering only 4?
No, there will be many F-13's delivered to Japan, but apparently for Fiscal year 2012 they budgeted for 4 aircraft, with more to follow after that.
Quoting as739x (Thread starter): The initial contract will be for four jets in Japan’s fiscal year 2012, which begins April 1. (www.examiner.com)
wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7812 times:
its really the only true 5th generation aircrfat availible to both countrie sto offset the new russian and chinese aircraft so it doesnt superise me.
Quote: WASHINGTON, May 1, 2012 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress April 30 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Japan for a possible sale of an initial four F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take-Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft with an option to purchase an additional 38 F-35 CTOL aircraft. The estimated cost is $10 billion.
All aircraft will be configured with the Pratt and Whitney F-135 engines, and 5 spare Pratt and Whitney F-135 engines. Other Aircraft Equipment includes: Electronic Warfare Systems, Command, Control, Communication, Computers and Intelligence/Communication, Navigational and Identifications (C4I/CNI), Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS), Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), Flight Mission Trainer, Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities, F-35 unique infrared flares, reprogramming center, and F-35 Performance Based Logistics. Also included: software development/integration, flight test instrumentation, aircraft ferry and tanker support, spare and repair parts, support equipment, tools and test equipment, technical data and publications, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $10 billion.
Looks like this sale is getting very close to being a confirmed order.
I believe I've read somewhere that when considering "lifetime of support" for a fighter jet, the support ratio is somewhere around 2.5 to 3.5 times the unit fly away cost?? Anyone else ever seen these ratio's used?
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11712 posts, RR: 52 Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 5600 times:
Quoting mffoda (Reply 8): I believe I've read somewhere that when considering "lifetime of support" for a fighter jet, the support ratio is somewhere around 2.5 to 3.5 times the unit fly away cost?? Anyone else ever seen these ratio's used?
Yes, about 3.5 X the unit flyaway costs, over 30 years is normal for a fighter. But the F-35 is not a normal fighter in the sense it is a stealth aircraft, and maintaning that is very expensive.
I believe I've read somewhere that when considering "lifetime of support" for a fighter jet, the support ratio is somewhere around 2.5 to 3.5 times the unit fly away cost?? Anyone else ever seen these ratio's used?
[Edited 2012-05-02 10:05:49]
Yep, support costs can easily be 2-3 times the unit fly away costs. Don't forget that given the nature of the JSF partnership, per unit pricing differs for partners and non-partners. Simplified, partners contributing to the MOU do not pay for R&D costs on the airframes they purchase; non-partners do pay those costs.
mffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 908 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5398 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9): Yes, about 3.5 X the unit flyaway costs, over 30 years is normal for a fighter. But the F-35 is not a normal fighter in the sense it is a stealth aircraft, and maintaning that is very expensive.
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 10): Yep, support costs can easily be 2-3 times the unit fly away costs. Don't forget that given the nature of the JSF partnership, per unit pricing differs for partners and non-partners. Simplified, partners contributing to the MOU do not pay for R&D costs on the airframes they purchase; non-partners do pay those costs.
Quoting legs (Reply 11): For comparisons sake, the Australian Super Hornet ended up being about 3.7 times the flyaway cost.
Thanks guys,
So, this $10 Billion dollar number for 42 A/C seems to be in-line with what LM has been saying all along (regarding unit flyaway cost). When you take away the questionable news reporting on the costs of this project... It seems to be tracking according to plan (reasonably).
$10 Billion / 42 = $238 million per A/C (Life time support included)
$238m / 3.5 = $68m per A/C (unit flyaway cost)
$238m / 2.5 = $95.2m per A/C (unit flyaway cost)
I suspect the real number will be somewhere in between....
This will be important, not only for Japan, but for the US as it means F-35's from the USAF and USN can be maintained in Japan rather than having to be flown back to the US.
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