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Rafale Lowest Bidder In Indian Mmrca Competition  
User currently offlinejouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13333 times:

According to multiple sources, Dassault's Rafale has emerged as the lowest bidder, and therefore probable winner in India's MMRCA competition for 126 and possibly an additional 80 combat aircraft. Kudos to Rafale !


http://www.indianexpress.com/news/lo...india-fighter-jets-sources/906120/

[Edited 2012-01-31 04:13:59]

70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13313 times:

You need to be very carefull
past experiences have shown us the amount of rubish that were reported in the news from India.
I would rather wait until this information is confirmed before trololol.
Personnally I won't believe any of this until I see pictures of Rafales with Indian Markings in (hopefully) a few years time....



Stephane
User currently offlinejouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13238 times:

Well, the information is being taken up by Associated Press and Bloomberg , and Dassault shares on the Paris stock exchange have risen by 21%, so I believe this has far more substance than previous rumours. So I guess I will start celebrating now, although it is just the L1 bidder designation.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...n-india-combat-jet-contest-2-.html


Comment by French External Commerce Minister Pierre Lellouche (in French)

http://www.romandie.com/news/n/_Inde..._reste_a_finaliser310120121401.asp

[Edited 2012-01-31 05:06:43]

User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13207 times:

Bloody hell
that's the light at the end of the tunnel

I think it s time for celebration your right



Stephane
User currently offlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13183 times:
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Quoting flagon (Reply 1):
You need to be very carefull
past experiences have shown us the amount of rubish that were reported in the news from India.
I would rather wait until this information is confirmed before trololol.

Would you believe the BBC?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-16809532

The Times of India?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...r-Typhoon/articleshow/11700801.cms

If you mean, there's many a slip between cup & lip, then, yes, I know what you mean - long way to go yet, but the "results" have been announced.


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 13169 times:

You don't need to give any more evidence I think that looks pretty serious,
unfortunately I cannot access these internet sites from work.
Any chance you could post some extracts of interest? As I cannot wait until I go home....



Stephane
User currently offlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13165 times:
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@ Flagon - for you, my friend, from BBC's website... voila!

French Rafale jet beats Eurofighter in $10bn India deal

Dassault will now enter exclusive talks to finalise the deal
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories

Japan chooses US F-35 fighter jet
French firm Dassault has emerged as the lowest bidder in a $10bn contract to supply India with fighter jets.

Dassault Aviation will now enter final negotiations before any deal is signed for supplying India with 126 Rafale aircraft.

Correspondents say this is one of the world's biggest defence deals and is a major setback for rival bidder, the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Eurofighter lost out in December on an $8bn deal to supply jets to Japan.

Officials at the British High Commission in Delhi said they were disappointed with the decision and would now study the details.

A statement read: "It was expressly said this was about the cost of the contract, not a reflection on the health of bilateral relations between India and the countries."

The officials said they "genuinely believed the [Eurofighter] Typhoon offered the best capability now and in the future".

They also said it was "not beyond imagination" that India might decide the Rafale was not the right option as it continued the process.

Four other bidders had dropped out in the lengthy selection process.


User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3675 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13146 times:

Very nice if true.

I wonder if the competitor will counterattack ...


User currently offlinewolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13126 times:

Congrats to the Rafale team. I expected the Typhoon to win the contest so I'm a bit surprised. For the Rafale it is a crucial export lifeline which will also increase their chances in other contests like Brazil.

From a European perspective I believe it is financially no longer sustainable to develop two competing fighters (or even three if you add the Gripen). The cost are too high if you have a two- or three-way split of the revenues. If a 6th generation fighter is ever developed in Europe surely it needs to be a combined effort.


User currently offlinejouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13021 times:

@flagon

Quote:
(Reuters) - French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Tuesday said that he welcomed a decision by India's government to enter into "exclusive negotiations" with France's Dassault for the purchase of 126 Rafale jet fighter planes.

In a statement, Sarkozy said talks over the contract would begin shortly, adding that the deal would include significant transfers of technology guaranteed by the French state.

Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) confirmed earlier that its fighter plane had been selected by the Indian air force.

(Reporting By Tim Hepher, Writing by Alexandria Sage; Editing by Jon Loades-Carter)


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12969 times:

@jouy31
@india1

thanks chaps
much appreciated

this news makes my day

It will be interesting to see how Eurofighter counter attack if they do....



Stephane
User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1545 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12910 times:

Quoting wolbo (Reply 8):
Congrats to the Rafale team. I expected the Typhoon to win the contest so I'm a bit surprised.

In times of world economic crisis at the end what counts is the price, and the Rafale is cheaper then the Typhoon. That's why Switzerland choosed the Gripen over Rafale and Typhoon. It was the cheapest offer.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 603 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12906 times:

Quoting wolbo (Reply 8):
From a European perspective I believe it is financially no longer sustainable to develop two competing fighters (or even three if you add the Gripen). The cost are too high if you have a two- or three-way split of the revenues.

you can also include all Typhoon FAL (4 FAL and each can compete against others)...


User currently offlineShmertspionem From India, joined Aug 2006, 451 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12871 times:

Yes and i've been saying thing for the last one year or so in this forum. The Hindi newspapers have been predicting this for the last 2 1/2 years since their Italian spoke to our Italian and fixed up their "retirement pension"

This is a disgrace!!! rotten plane rotten decision. But not surprising since this has been the most rotten and corrupt government in our history.

We've just initiated an affidavit under the Right to Information act about the newspaper reports that the rafale was the first plane that failed its Hot and High tests in Leh and was the first plane to be kicked out of the competition but their Italian's husband apparently called u our Italian's puppet and had it reinstated.

This deal wont stand. Now that the Supreme Court has basically opened the doors in today's judgement for the Italian to be prosecuted. This decisions will in all probability be challenged.



Vi veri universum vivus vici
User currently offlinea380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1091 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12796 times:

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 13):
their Italian's husband apparently called u our Italian's puppet and had it reinstated.

What do the Italians have to do with this? I don't get it.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12793 times:

A magnificent comeback after disappointing outcomes in previous biddings!   

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...tion-for-indian-mmrca-deal-367594/

Quote:
"Exclusive negotiations for a Rafale purchase will now take place, with Reuters having quoted Indian Defence Minister A K Antony as saying a deal will not be concluded before the start of the next financial year in April.

'Dassault Aviation and its partners reiterate their commitment to meet the operational requirements of the Indian air force,' the French company said, adding that it was 'honoured and grateful' to have gained selection."



Pleased to have picked the winner in the survey for the two finalists. Mayhaps Dassault's strategy was not to go all out in the smaller competitions but to focus on the biggest prize? Now, there'd be no excuse for failing in the negotiations. After all, they had a nice cushion for the Mirage upgrades.

Maybe this is the reason they could lower their offer to Switzerland? Similar expectations can now be foreseen in the unfinished tenders in Brazil and the UAE.


Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 13):
This deal wont stand. Now that the Supreme Court has basically opened the doors in today's judgement for the Italian to be prosecuted. This decisions will in all probability be challenged.

Perhaps it's about time for the challenger to change their choice of "lobbyist"?  



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineindia1 From India, joined Aug 2011, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12777 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting a380900 (Reply 14):
What do the Italians have to do with this? I don't get it.

Our Italian = Madame Sonia, their Italian = Madame Carla


User currently offlinea380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1091 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12742 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 16):
Our Italian = Madame Sonia, their Italian = Madame Carla

I had no clue. I'm all willing to recognize corruption when it's there but I must say the Italian connection seems remote here. I don't know about your Italian but our Italian is not much into arms deals. Anyway... Stranger things have happened. It does not bring much to Italy if the country is at the center of this conspiracy.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 12696 times:

I guess the IAF chose the best considering the IAF needs & costs....

Any idea when the deliveries would commence.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 12581 times:

I silently kept my fingers crossed for Rafale and I am very happy to see it win this competition. Kudos to the Dassault team for winning this one.


All Hail Mighty Triple Seven, The MURDERER of the so-called "Queen"!!!!
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 12193 times:

Quoting a380900 (Reply 17):
I'm all willing to recognize corruption when it's there but I must say the Italian connection seems remote here. I don't know about your Italian but our Italian is not much into arms deals. Anyway... Stranger things have happened.

I think they all have graciously (albeit grudgingly) accepted the result as befits honorable men.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...o-indias-typhoon-rejection-367621/

Quote:
"EADS company Cassidian has voiced its disappointment after the Eurofighter Typhoon's defeat in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition, but appears to have accepted New Delhi's choice of Dassault's Rafale.

'India has taken the decision to select our competitor, although this is not yet a contract signature and the negotiations are still ahead,' Cassidian said. 'We are disappointed. However, we respect the decision of the Indian Ministry of Defence,' it added.

[.....]

'Based on the Indian government feedback we will now carefully analyse and examine this situation, together with our European partner companies and their respective companies,' said Cassidian."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinevishaljo From India, joined Aug 2006, 446 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 12105 times:

My plane won   
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vishal Jolapara - Indian Aviation Photographers



My photos of Rafales in India http://vishal.jolapara.in/2011/05/13/dassault-rafale/


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12043 times:

Quoting india1 (Reply 4):
The Times of India?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...1.cms

What is meant by produced below? Is it mostly assembly or a good portion of parts will be made by HAL?

So can we expect ATR to consider jointly developing 90 seater turboprop with India?

From the linked article above:
According to the Request for Proposal (RFP), the winner of the contract will have to supply 18 of the 126 aircraft to the IAF in 36 months from its facilities and the remaining would be produced at HAL facilities in Bangalore.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12013 times:

WOW! It actually happened as promised by the end of January. The Indian blogosphere has been snarkily enquiring about how many days hath January...

The IAF must be thrilled that this is actually happening, given that its pilots have been leaning towards Raffy a.k.a 'Katrina'.

Best of all, kudos to the Indian Government for enforcing a transparent and open process for the bid.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 11944 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 23):
Best of all, kudos to the Indian Government for enforcing a transparent and open process for the bid.

From what I read, the defence minister A.K Anthony has a reputation for being "clean" and is probably responsible for ensuring a transparent and open bidding process.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12072 times:

Good to see the Rafale win! It was my choice among the final four, and I'm glad it got through. The deal was as much a political as a military choice. France has been far more amenable as a broad strategic partner than the UK/Germany combo that led the Eurofighter consortium.

The French may be expensive compared to say the Russians, but they don't pull stunts like apply sanctions and lecture us if we do something like test nuclear weapons. Germany was the first to apply sanctions in 1998. There's a long bureaucratic memory of such actions. The IAF also has a long history of using Dassault products.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4869 posts, RR: 16
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12047 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):

Indian bloggers are suggesting the first squadron may arrive by the end of this year.


It is to be noted that the arms for this fighter will likely be US munitions (lot cheaper than French).

Also note that there is an added 80 aircraft to be purchased under this deal which could include those that did not qualify.


User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12305 times:

Any chance now for India chosing Rafale-M for their carriers ?

User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12298 times:

Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 27):
Any chance now for India chosing Rafale-M for their carriers ?

I would have thought there is strong arguments to say that the Rafale is in strong position for the Indian Navy.
1) The indian industrial net for the IAF Rafale will already be settled down and up and running and the Rafale N has a lot of commonalities with the Rafale C. So it is basically reusing the same facilities to assemble navy variants?
2) weaponry like mica would be the same?
3) Is it fair to say the indian navy is looking for a strike/multi-rol platform like Rafale, air defense role being taken over by Mig29K?



Stephane
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12303 times:

I came across the following comment...

Aviation expert Howard Wheeldon, of BGC Partners, said: "This is not the end of the road by any stretch of the imagination.
"The Typhoon, unlike the Rafale, is far from being a mature aircraft. The Typhoon has time on its side - the Rafale does not."

Some Eurofighter representatives seem determined to fight more than ever...



Stephane
User currently offlineTaromA380 From Romania, joined Sep 2005, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12303 times:

The Indian Navy competition (Rafale vs. Eurofighter vs. others) would be far easier for the Rafale :
- against the naval Typhoon, a very doubtful paper plane versus an existent, proved plane, conceived from the start for carriers
- against the others, commonality with the already bought Rafale C

[Edited 2012-02-01 04:20:58]

User currently offlinejouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 31, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 12221 times:

Rafale M and the Super Hornet would be great choices for Indian carriers, PROVIDED India opts for catapult-enabled carriers.

User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 11919 times:

The MiG-29K and Naval LCA are the primary platforms for the INS Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov) and the INS Vikrant (under construction at Cochin Shipyard) carriers.


India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4067 posts, RR: 19
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 11525 times:

The Rafale just has to be the best looking fighter currently made.


Those curves are sensational !



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 11482 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 33):
The Rafale just has to be the best looking fighter currently made.

Unfortunately for the Euro-canards, real-world conflicts aren't decide by airshow performances.


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11463 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 34):
Unfortunately for the Euro-canards, real-world conflicts aren't decide by airshow performances

I take you point onboard, but the indian decision to buy 126 jets was not just based on airshow performance, you may have noticed there was a bit more than that in the requirements...



Stephane
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4067 posts, RR: 19
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11420 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 34):

Unfortunately for the Euro-canards, real-world conflicts aren't decide by airshow performanc

Plenty of fighters look great at airshows. It does not take away from their real world capability.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11432 times:

A few extracts from the british press:

"DAVID Cameron has expressed "disappointment" that a French firm had beaten BAE Systems to become preferred bidder for a major fighter plane contract with India."

"The industry was already reeling from India's decision to snub BAE Systems for a French rival over a fighter jets contract worth up to £13billion."

It is interesting to note that in this emotional time the UK press seems to overlook the fact that there is a bit more than just BAe Systems in the Eurofighter consortium....



Stephane
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11311 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 34):
real-world conflicts aren't decide by airshow performances.

Rafale is actually the only 'Euro-canard' to have proven its worth in combat missions, having been extensively deployed in Afghanistan and Libya.

There's some real-world data Dassault could rely on during negotiations...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10998 times:

I think the writing was on the wall that Dassault would win when BAE announced the job losses at EF manufacturing sites late last year.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 38):
Rafale is actually the only 'Euro-canard' to have proven its worth in combat missions, having been extensively deployed in Afghanistan and Libya.

You're wrong. The Eurofighter has also served in those conflicts.

Regardless, the Rafale will take India towards parity with China.

Seems like the France bashing has begun. Daily Mail isn't too happy:

France swoops to rob UK of £13 billion Indian jet contract

Nor are those at the telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...vernment-fighter-jet-contract.html


 


User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10965 times:

Interesting video discussion of Red Flag 2008 with something about Indian Su30MKI and French Rafale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ibgAQ7lv0w&feature=player_embedded#!

- Su30MKi better than F16 and F15
- French Rafale in Gulf war and Red flag 2008 did nothing but sniffing all the electronics signals of other fighters


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10751 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 39):
You're wrong. The Eurofighter has also served in those conflicts

Not in Afghanistan, but I agree with you that the Eurofighter has now made its first steps in real war envirnment.

Besides, some Gripens were also employed in Lybia I think?



Stephane
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10681 times:

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 39):
You're wrong. The Eurofighter has also served in those conflicts.

I'm aware of the operational involvement of the Eurofighter in Libya, but those truly were first steps into a combat environment and its actions were limited.

It primarily served as an air interdiction aircraft, which is what it was designed to do, but of doubtful use since Libyan aircrafts had been grounded long before the Typhoons became involved.
If anything, Libya served to 'try out' the Typhoon's air to ground capabilities, and the experience remained somewhat limited since they mostly operated alongside the Tornados and launched 5 times less ordnance than them.

The Rafale came in as a fully operational multirole fighter, already proven in the Afghan theater since 2007.

There's no doubt that the Eurofighter will eventually perform its mission admirably in combat duty, but so far the amount of operational experience amassed by both aircrafts is not comparable.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10511 times:

The British press are a bunch of useless wankers, but the indignant drivel is fun to read. The bidding process was straightforward - Rafale and Typhoon were the only ones that met the technical criteria, while the final selection of the Rafale was the L-1 lowest cost bid.

Past experience shows that during war, neither UK nor Germany (or US for that matter) are dependable for spares support. Therefore it is better to utilize them for munitions, support equipment, not frontline aircraft. It remains to be seen how worthwhile the recent US equipment purchases are, in this context. France and Russia on the other hand, have both been much more consistently supportive.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2006 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10459 times:

Any words on whether final assembly line will be in France or in India?

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10462 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 44):
Any words on whether final assembly line will be in France or in India?

First 18 frames built in France and delivered key in hand, the rest is to be built in India by HAL.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2006 posts, RR: 4
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 10445 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 45):
the rest is to be built in India by HAL.

Will it be in their Bangalore facility or have that been determined yet?

BTW, are there any good French restaurant in Bangalore?

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineGolfOscarDelta From India, joined Feb 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10354 times:

I've heard rumours that when the French gave us the mirage before they disabled its ability to launch missiles when supersonic (don't know how true it is? Does anyone know more about this?). Hope that is not the case with the Rafale

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 46):
BTW, are there any good French restaurant in Bangalore?

The only good/decent ones I know:

Cafe: Cafe Noir

Fine Dining type restaurant: Medici French & Italian Restaurant

Those are the only two I know (may be others can add more) that serve dedicated french food. The rest are a hodge podge of Continental/French/Italian/Chinese/Indian/Martian etc.

[Edited 2012-02-03 19:45:40]

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10273 times:

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 47):
Hope that is not the case with the Rafale

I think the IAF is in a better position today to determine its requirements & no supplier will try that considering the competition that exists for the deal....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9584 times:

Very interesting article that expands on what I mentioned above:
Why India chose Rafale

Quote:
It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar: without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf’s perfidy.
...
Policies may be the result of collective decision-making in governments, but within that framework, individuals do matter. One such individual who has left a mark on Franco-Indian relations is Jean-David Levitte, whose critical role in securing the Rafale deal for his country will never become a matter of public record because of the nature of his job.
...
Soon afterwards, Levitte became French permanent representative to the UN in New York where he led, along with Russia, a split among the five permanent members of the Security Council on the issue of punishing India through sanctions on the nuclear issue. Later he was ambassador in Washington.

Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.

Within the political and civilian leadership of India’s defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8876 times:

So when is the Signing to be completed.....


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 51, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 8758 times:

Ajai Shukla's article addresses this:
The Rafale's long flight to India

Quote:
The final countdown has begun, towards signing a contract with Dassault. A defence ministry body called the Contract Negotiating Committee will now engage Dassault in beating down its price, grilling Dassault’s negotiators on the calculations that determined the final price of the Rafale, and scanning the costs of labour and materials that go into the fighter. For example, CNC will find out how much titanium goes into each aircraft and then check titanium prices on the London Metal Exchange. CNC will also vet labour costs, determining the number of skilled workmen and engineers needed to build the Rafale and multiplying that by the wages (which are notoriously high in France). The aim will be to demonstrate to the Dassault negotiators that the Rafale can be built cheaper than the price they have quoted.

CNC negotiations will also centre on the technologies that Dassault (and its sub-vendors, like Thales) will transfer to India, and the modalities for doing so. The RfP mandates that the technology for the AESA radar (which Thales builds) is to be transferred to India. CNC will verify how that technology, and others, would actually be transferred. Offsets are another minefield that Dassault must cross, ploughing back into Indian industry at least 50 per cent of the estimated $15-17 billion contract value of this deal. Only after these issues are resolved will a contract be actually signed. Senior IAF officers believe this could take till late-2012.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3675 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8493 times:

Of course, this contract is very important for Dassault. We've seen it with Brazil. If the contract is signed, many other countries may be interested by the rafale.
But it's incredible that the customer is going to give the price of the plane, while at the same time they want to have the technology and to build 108 planes in their country. Dassault was already the cheapest. I think they already cut down the price. I wonder how much they will gain (or lose) in the end.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 53):
the wages (which are notoriously high in France)

Lower than in Germany or USA for example, but of course much higher than in India, just like all western countries.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8386 times:

What are you complaining about ? All these requirements and procedures were clearly stated in the original RFP. Nobody had any obligation to respond, but they all did. Yes, I've seen French papers talk about how 'the Indians are taking everything' but I think that even though we do benefit a lot (we wrote the terms, after all), a lot of French angst is just domestic political theater from those opposed to Sarkozy in the coming elections.


India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1516 posts, RR: 2
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7643 times:

My two bobs worth:

IMO the Industrial offsetts are the determining factor.

Producing most of them in India will keep their aerospace industry kicking along.

Austarlia did a similar deal with the French when Mirage 3C's were purchased from France in the 60's but most were produced in Australia.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 789 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7463 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 54):
Austarlia did a similar deal with the French when Mirage 3C's were purchased from France in the 60's but most were produced in Australia.

We also locally assembled all but two of the F/A-18s.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 52):
But it's incredible that the customer is going to give the price of the plane, while at the same time they want to have the technology and to build 108 planes in their country. Dassault was already the cheapest. I think they already cut down the price. I wonder how much they will gain (or lose) in the end.

The aircraft will be assembled from kits and probably include greater locally manufactured content, a very similar arrangeemnt to the SU-30MKIs.

I am sure spares, specialized maintanence and upgrades will more than compensate for any low contract bid over the life of the airframe. Dassault would care most about the bottomline and if that means revenue comes from Indian component suppliers it doesn't really matter.

Overall I think everyone will be happy as Dassault get an export contract, India get an aircraft that meets their needs and everyone gets to see more Rafales in the air.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7243 times:

In Sweden many say Gripen NG is the best choice for anyone, the national bias aside, what do you non-swedes say about that?

We have paid a lot for our gripen over the years and will pay a lot to upgrade a few more in the future. IMO Sweden could have ordered F16s like many others and saved money in the end, however I almost have to denounce my citizenship if I say it out loud.


User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1832 posts, RR: 23
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7187 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 52):
Of course, this contract is very important for Dassault. We've seen it with Brazil. If the contract is signed, many other countries may be interested by the rafale.
But it's incredible that the customer is going to give the price of the plane, while at the same time they want to have the technology and to build 108 planes in their country. Dassault was already the cheapest. I think they already cut down the price. I wonder how much they will gain (or lose) in the end.

Nonsense. Would you rather the contract have gone to somebody else?


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1516 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 7144 times:

Quoting YTZ (Reply 57):
Quoting sebolino (Reply 52):Of course, this contract is very important for Dassault. We've seen it with Brazil. If the contract is signed, many other countries may be interested by the rafale.
But it's incredible that the customer is going to give the price of the plane, while at the same time they want to have the technology and to build 108 planes in their country. Dassault was already the cheapest. I think they already cut down the price. I wonder how much they will gain (or lose) in the end.


I thoiught this was a reasonable question to ask.

Let me ask it more directly;

Has this deal got anything to do with the upcoming French elections?

Ruscoe


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7015 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 58):
Has this deal got anything to do with the upcoming French elections?

I doubt it.

Politics are very much involved I'm sure, but the annoucement of the 'MoU' took place well before Sarkozy started his campaign (the official one at least) and had comparatively little media coverage.

The debate is very much centered on internal affairs. I'm sure most people in France have forgotten about this as it has been buried amongst the campaign cacophony.

It's not past Sarkozy to bring it up again before the elections though, but I doubt the government made extra efforts on that sale solely due to the campaign. Just the usual salesmanship tactics, which is already a lot.

Not saying that the plane didn't win on its own merit, but it's just never entirely about that, is it...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 60, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6176 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 59):
Not saying that the plane didn't win on its own merit,

It won based on the IAF requirements........needed........



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3675 posts, RR: 4
Reply 61, posted (2 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5735 times:

As it shoud be expected, the contract is still disputed ... Let the show begin.



Manipulation claim over Indian Rafale jet deal

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...m-over-Indian-Rafale-jet-deal.html


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 62, posted (2 years 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5679 times:

Yawn. The letter is posted in full on Livefist. It's certainly full of clinching evidence alright.

I suggest people read the BS in the original, instead of from some English paper - obviously the most unbiased source of commentary on this deal, of course   I wonder how much Eurofighter/Cassidian paid Mr. Reddy ? Apparently not enough to

It's not unexpected that the Brits went screaming 'scam! scam!' thanks to their antipathy reg. Sarkozy. Ditto for Sarkozy's political opponents in his own country. Way too much domestic European politics using India as a scapegoat.

The general procedure of MPs requesting clarifications from other ministers through writtens requests is in any case standard parliamentary procedure.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinespudh From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (2 years 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5641 times:

Quoting sebolino (Reply 61):
Manipulation claim over Indian Rafale jet deal

What backing is there to the claim that the Typhoon outperformed the Rafale in Libya?


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 64, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5471 times:

Excerpt from the article:

"He was also concerned by reports Rafales were outperformed by Typhoons in operations over Libya."

This goes to show how ridiculously biased this article is.
The Rafale waltzed in there a fully operational, reliable and fully multirole weapon platform, flying thousands of missions encompassing air to air, air to ground, recce and buddy refueling (sometimes during the same sortie) whereas the Typhoon was taking its first angry steps and was mostly limited to (superfluous) air superiority missions and only performed a few air to ground sorties, alongside Tornados.

As far as proving their ability to fulfill the missions they were designed to perform, Rafale clearly came out with the higher grades in Libya.
Don't get the wrong idea from the flag next to my username, this has been widely reported by international specialized media...

There was a hefty amount of lobbying from both sides, undoubtedly. One was better at it it seems.
This sounds like a political hissyfit (would have happened no matter who won, btw).

[Edited 2012-03-28 13:26:22]


Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinejouy31 From France, joined May 2003, 447 posts, RR: 10
Reply 65, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5288 times:

http://www.4-traders.com/THALES-4715...dar-to-Dassault-Aviation-14248583/

Quote:

THALES : delivers first production RBE2 AESA radar to Dassault Aviation
03/30/2012 | 07:14am

30 March 2012

Neuilly-sur-Seine - In February, Thales delivered the first series-produced RBE2 radar with active electronically scanned array (AESA) to the Dassault Aviation facility in Mérignac, France. The radar will now be installed on Rafale C137, the first Rafale with this new capability, which is scheduled for delivery to the French defence procurement agency (DGA) this summer. A comprehensive three-month flight test programme conducted with the first production RBE2 AESA radar at the Istres air base demonstrated the qualities of the radar and confirmed the expected levels of performance prior to delivery to Dassault Aviation.


The RBE2 AESA radar was delivered in line with the contract schedule, demonstrating the new radar's technological maturity and further consolidating Thales's European leadership in radars for combat aircraft.


The RBE2 AESA will give the Rafale a number of key advantages:

* Extended range for full compatibility with the latest-generation long-range missiles, such as the Meteor, combined with the ability to detect low-observable targets
* Higher reliability for reduced cost of ownership (no major maintenance is required on the active array for 10 years)
* Waveform agility for high-resolution synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery and increased resistance to jamming


The Rafale will be the only European combat aircraft under full-scale production with an active-array radar. The operational superiority of this omnirole combat aircraft, which was demonstrated most recently during Operation Harmattan in Libya, is now further assured for the full spectrum of French Air Force and Navy missions relying on the new technology.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 66, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 64):
There was a hefty amount of lobbying from both sides, undoubtedly. One was better at it it seems.

The IAF will consider costs & an Aircraft which caters to their exact needs.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 67, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5118 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 66):
Quoting francoflier (Reply 64):
There was a hefty amount of lobbying from both sides, undoubtedly. One was better at it it seems.

The IAF will consider costs & an Aircraft which caters to their exact needs.

Indeed. If lobbying was the basis by which this was decided, IAF would have picked the F/A-18 Hornet. The Americans had by far the most clout and influence. Neither of their planes even made the L1 shortlist. The Rafale was picked based on what IAF and MoD set as its parameters, nothing else.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 67):
The Rafale was picked based on what IAF and MoD set as its parameters, nothing else.

Cassidian seems to think otherwise.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...a-deal-says-cassidian-boss-370281/

Quote:
"Cassidian has not given up hope of a Eurofighter win in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest, despite the consortium holding 'L2' vendor status behind the Dassault Rafale, says company chief executive Stefan Zoller.

'India is a campaign that is still running,' Zoller says, pointing to an investigation into the nation's selection process being conducted by the government in New Delhi.

[.....]

'There is now far more willingness from the customers to converge and go ahead on those,' he said."



Never say die!      



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 69, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4837 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 68):
Cassidian seems to think otherwise.....

India is a campaign that is still running,' Zoller says, pointing to an investigation into the nation's selection process being conducted by the government in New Delhi.

They can investigate all they want but they've no recourse as such, having already been rejected in the L1 round. The only way they'll be in contention is if talks with Dassault break down entirely, which seems unlikely to happen.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 70, posted (2 years 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4783 times:

There are bound to be sore losers...considering the quantity of the order.....Not surprising....


Think of the brighter side!
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