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White House: US To Sell Fighters To Taiwan  
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8710 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 7 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14968 times:

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/po...an_needs_new_jets_to_counter_china
White House writes to senator pledging to try to sell either F-16s or something else to Taiwan, over and above A/B model upgrades. F-5 retirement is the nominal cause.

For the first time in many years, the US has taken concrete steps on the Taiwan issue. We are draining some of the Kool Aid from the situation that US China policy is all hunky dory.

China's machinations in North Korea make the US angry, and provide adequate diplomatic cover for us to re-arm Taiwan. Hillary Clinton is probably behind this. Bravo.

[Edited 2012-04-27 12:24:39]

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14877 times:

Covered here too.....

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...6s-to-taiwan-white-house-says.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/image/idqOfN5P9OMk.jpg

[Edited 2012-04-27 14:58:06]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14826 times:
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"serious consideration" is not the same as we will sell! Reagan and GHW Bush seriously considered selling F16s too, all the way from 1980 to 1992!. I'm sure the previous administration seriously considered it too when the ROC first asked for pricing and availability in 07/08- and kicked the request to the present one!
As I have said multiple times before on this topic watch for BHO to act like GHWB and announce a sale in Ft Worth this summer before the general election when his poll numbers in TX don't look so good and LM is mumbling about laying off people in Ft Worth!


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14652 times:
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I guess China's bru-hah-ha over the EU's carbon policies will provide some political cover, but Boeing has 20 777-300ERs and 45 737NGs for China Eastern waiting for the CAAC's approval that I would like to think the Administration and Congress would not want to put at risk.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12855 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 14608 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I guess China's bru-hah-ha over the EU's carbon policies will provide some political cover, but Boeing has 20 777-300ERs and 45 737NGs for China Eastern waiting for the CAAC's approval that I would like to think the Administration and Congress would not want to put at risk.

Tell the PRC to piss off and go buy Airbus.

As those who know my postings already know, I'm not a fan of defense contractors, but I'm less a fan of another nation telling us who we're allowed to have as friends.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14588 times:
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Beijings bluster is just that.

Look what happened last year, 60 UH60Ms approved for sale to Taiwan (ok so no actual contract is in sight yet except for the handful for special ops they did sign up for) and then Taipei signs for 3+ 17 EC225s also a month or two later. Beijing was snookered by the US and EU.

Raytheon is delivering the first several hundred million$ of the several billion $ worth of Patriot upgrades and Pac3s to Taiwan as we speak. Taiwans subs are just starting to begin operational deployment of sub launched Harpoons ( a Boeing product) which is a tremendous gamechanger in the straits. The first new production block 3 Apache Longbows are now rolling off Boeings line for the ROC Army. What is Beijing going to do, not buy any planes from A and B and buy Russian??

The present Chinese leadership are what the older generation (who went through the Long March and didn't ride in Euro luxo cars or have gucci attire) would have called spineless bourgeoise running dog lackeys of capitalist roaders. And they would be absolutely correct.


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 14027 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 2):
watch for BHO to act like GHWB and announce a sale in Ft Worth this summer before the general election when his poll numbers in TX don't look so good and LM is mumbling about laying off people in Ft Worth!

This time around, it's the Taiwanese who are having second thoughts.....

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...ssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

Quote:
"TAIPEI — Angry at the cost of upgrading its existing 146 F-16A/B fighters and enticed by the possible U.S. release of new F-16C/D jets, Taiwan might delay signing a letter of acceptance (LoA) with the U.S. government to upgrade its existing F-16 fleet.

[.....]

Taiwan cannot afford both the A/B upgrade and new F-16C/Ds, said a Taiwan defense analyst. There is a lack of will within the Taiwan government to 'fund such a costly new program, especially on top of the $5.3 billion F-16A/B upgrade,' since the government has consistently failed to live up to the level of defense spending promised.

'Logically, therefore, it would seem to make the most sense for Taiwan to hold off making a final decision on the F-16A/B upgrade, at least until the situation vis-à-vis the new buy sufficiently clarifies,' he said."



Wonder if the same would apply here?.....   

http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/...lashpoints/CNAS_ESCS_bulletin3.pdf



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6847 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13758 times:

5,3 billion for an upgrade ? Is the manufacturer milking a captive customer or what ?

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
China's machinations in North Korea make the US angry

What machinations ? From what I see China is angry at North Korea too.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13632 times:
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Well if Dassault is charging India 2.4 billion for 52 M2000 upgrades, then 5.3 billion for 146 F16s is a bargain! Plus I dont think the upgraded Indian planes even get an AESA. The upgraded block 20s for Taiwan should be "superior" to even a block 60 in everything except payload range . The original price also includes weapons- and dont forget even an AIM9X is costing almost a million US$ now. It also includes an engineering study to replace the -220E with -229 engines. This engine upgrade though from recent Taiwanese press reports is not likely to happen. if it did it would make the upgraded block 20s definitely superior to the block 60s

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 6):

This time around, it's the Taiwanese who are having second thoughts....

The upgrade is going to happen , its a question of whats in the package. US also wants someone, either ROK or ROC to eat the non recurring engineering costs for the AESA radar upgrade and the ROC don't want to, or at least not most of it. ROC probably wants ROK to decide first and get stuck with the whole bill, US wants anyone else to pay but the US. Ultimately I suspect they will have to share the costs or see delays in the program till somone is willing to cough up the money to be first.

The ROC MND has been planning on both an upgrade and new buy for several years. Obviously what $$ the legislature cough up is another issue. If its either or, they will go with the upgrade since it would be stupid to buy 66 off the shelf block 52s and not have an AESA equipped force with 146 upgraded block 20s. And even if the new planes were block 60+ (the new Viper LM has touted) and AESA equipped,why have 66 (with admittedly better strike potential due to higher weights/more powerful engines) and 146 block 20s with outdated avionics.


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13480 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 8):
And even if the new planes were block 60+ (the new Viper LM has touted) and AESA equipped,why have 66 (with admittedly better strike potential due to higher weights/more powerful engines) and 146 block 20s with outdated avionics.

They may want the new Vipers to be their tip of the spear, with the MLU'd frames (new, non-AESA radars and avionics) forming the main body - to even up the numbers. For giving the mainland a dose of its "swarm" medicine. No call for uber sophisticated, expensive gizmos when duking it out.

.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/as...05/LMF16V-thumb-560x412-156110.jpg

Interesting how the F-16 takes on a new name with every campaign.....Desert Falcon, Super Viper, and now just plain, "venomous" Viper. Good one for the "conspiracy theorists".....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/asian-skies/

Quote:
"That said, is it really in the interests of the US to sell advanced F-16 C/Ds or, perhaps, the new F-16V to Taiwan? Such a deal would indeed rile Beijing, but they get upset at every US arms sale to Taiwan, no matter how small. Rather, the more important issue could be technology transfer to the mainland."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 13447 times:
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Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Rather, the more important issue could be technology transfer to the mainland."

If Pakistan has it Beijing has it already, and I wouldn't trust Tel Aviv either.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12175 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 13432 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 10):
If Pakistan has it Beijing has it already, and I wouldn't trust Tel Aviv either.

While I agree with you on Pakistan, I doubt the Israelis are ready to give away secrets to their F-16Is.


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 13427 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 10):
If Pakistan has it Beijing has it already, and I wouldn't trust Tel Aviv either.

While I agree with you on Pakistan, I doubt the Israelis are ready to give away secrets to their F-16Is.

Anything specific to the F16 I I would also agree, anything else is debatable. Those J10s don't look like a Lavi by pure chance.
Not that it matters, they've probably hacked into LMs computers already!  


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13351 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
5,3 billion for an upgrade? Is the manufacturer milking a captive customer or what?

I wonder how much Dassault would charge for the Mirage 2000-9s the UAE is trying to unload?   

.
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...sault-mirage-2000-9-dubai-2011.jpg



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13034 times:

Update:

First step done.....

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Quote:
"WASHINGTON — The House of Representatives voted May 17 to require the United States to sell 66 new fighter-jets to Taiwan, with lawmakers saying the deal would close a growing military gap with China.

The House of Representatives voted to force the Obama administration to authorize the sale of F-16 jets in addition to plans underway to upgrade existing planes. The measure still needs Senate approval.

[.....]

Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, blocked the confirmation of a Pentagon official until the White House said in a letter last month that it would give 'serious consideration' to the sale of new jets.

Cornyn has led a companion bill in the Senate to force the sale. Lawmakers have also argued that a contract for the planes would bring needed jobs to Texas and other states."



.....Bigger hurdle to follow.   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 12969 times:
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Similar House bills passed a year or two ago, killed in senate.

If they really wanted to force it, stick it on a must do appropriations bill.

When is Obama doing a campaign tour to Dallas/Ft Worth??? Thats when it will be announced! Just like in 92 with Bush I. IIRC that was sometime august.


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10575 times:
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LOA signed earlier this week

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...-F-16-Upgrade-LOA?odyssey=nav|head

so who will get the radar contract!


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10504 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 16):
so who will get the radar contract!

I guess Raytheon has the inside track on that. More interesting is if the old radars and mission computers would find their way into the F-CK-1s.....could they fit and would the Ching-kuos have enough juice for those?.....

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Arnold Chen
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Arnold Chen


I know they were MLU'd, so perhaps the more important questions are... is there a need? ... and will it be worth the effort? What would they do with the surplus gear if the answer to both was no?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10438 times:
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Not sure an APG66 would fit in the nose of an IDF (array size 740mm x 480 vs 665 x 420). The GD53 isn't that bad a radar anyway compared to the APG66. If the block 20s had APG68s that would be different. The IDF MLU already puts in new mission computers, doubtful they would recycle the F16s into them. Processors would be so "ancient" anyway. May need to do a lot of rewriting software if they did that too.

If they won't sell new F16s I could see ROC buying new IDF LIFTS to replace the F5s because thats all the F5s do now anyway.


edit for array size

[Edited 2012-07-19 18:12:32]

User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9235 times:
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lower numbers asked for now, just 24, interim move to cover shortgap during upgrade as 1 squadron will be out of service at a time per previous reports. maybe they could just buy some second hand block 40/50 from US and upgrade them to same standard as the upgraded block 20s.
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaki..._detail.asp?id=23085&icid=a&d_str=


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9094 times:
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And now the official denial!
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2012/08/14/2003540236


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12175 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8692 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 13):
I wonder how much Dassault would charge for the Mirage 2000-9s the UAE is trying to unload?

Why would Taiwan want second hand, second rate Mirages? They are retiring their own Mirage-2000-5s, and the -9 is not even as good as their current, non-upgraded F-16A/Bs. Why do you think the UAE wants to get rid of them?

Quoting trex8 (Reply 19):
lower numbers asked for now, just 24,
Quoting trex8 (Reply 20):
And now the official denial!

Wasn't it Sonny and Sher who said "The Beat Goes On"?


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8676 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Why would Taiwan want second hand, second rate Mirages? They are retiring their own Mirage-2000-5s, and the -9 is not even as good as their current, non-upgraded F-16A/Bs. Why do you think the UAE wants to get rid of them?

I think you missed the subtlety. It was to counter the suggestion in #7 that the OEM (LM in this case) was the only one "milking a captive customer".

And for the record, it wasn't for Taiwan that I asked about "second hand, second rate" Mirages.  



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4839 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8554 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):

Why would Taiwan want second hand, second rate Mirages? They are retiring their own Mirage-2000-5s, and the -9 is not even as good as their current, non-upgraded F-16A/Bs. Why do you think the UAE wants to get rid of them?

The M2000-5 are more than an equal to the block 20s for air-air . In fact the M2000 units regularly beat the F16 units in exercises (and those F16 units have pilots who regularly beat active USAF /ANG/Navy/MC pilots when they flew at Luke). They are expensive to fly as prices for parts are much higher than for F16s due to the smaller customer base. In the late 90s the M2000s had a higher availability rate than the F16s.IIRC the AA M2000s in SW Asia had highest availability rates of any in theater coalition fighter also. Interestingly back in 92 the ROCAF brass wanted Pres Lee to can the F16 deal and go for an all M2000 fleet when they realized they were getting "only" block 20s. Of course it also wasn't clear when amraams would be released to Taiwan at that point while the M2000s came with a larger inventory of active radar seeking Mica EM than even the French were planning of buying.

No idea why the UAE want to ditch their 2000-9s but with block 60s in their inventory they don't need 2000-9s which are more mud moving optimized than the -5! The Indians are happy to spend over half a billion upgrading their even more obsolete 2000Cs (but then when its reliability is compared to a Mig29 or Su30 maybe its a no brainer ) 

If there are no new F16s coming upgrading the M2000 with Rafale avionics is one way to go.


User currently offlineThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8497 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 23):
No idea why the UAE want to ditch their 2000-9s but with block 60s in their inventory they don't need 2000-9s which are more mud moving optimized than the -5! The Indians are happy to spend over half a billion upgrading their even more obsolete 2000Cs (but then when its reliability is compared to a Mig29 or Su30 maybe its a no brainer )

The UAE wants the latest and greatest, and they want the Rafale as a compliment to their F-16 Block 60's.

The Mirage 2000-9's are a very potent aircraft, and are essentially, export variants of the French Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2's. The Mirage 2000 is still going to be a front line fighter for years to come with the French Air Force.


25 celestar : ROC Air Force is really caught between international politics. Previosuly, US does not want to sell Taiwan its much needed air defense fighter, instea
26 trex8 : French logistics is EXPENSIVE but they are as rapid in their response as any other OEM. When first put into service in late 90s they had the best ava
27 celestar : You are quite right trex8. There is a shortage of pilot in Taiwan. I personally love the Mirage 2000 but I think its role is too limited. Without a do
28 trex8 : The SDF F16 units in the US have an excellent reputation. They have not won as many awards as the Taiwanese unit at Luke but its a little apples to o
29 celestar : Hi Trex8, can you elaborate on the awards won by the Taiwanese pilots? I am very intereted to know more if you can share.
30 trex8 : At Luke, the active USAF F16 training base, the best squadron wins an award for overall performance, then there are other ones for various activities.
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