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European UAV Development  
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 873 posts, RR: 11
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

This strikes me as troubling news at best for European UAV development.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_05_31_2012_p0-463344.xml

A change in course would basically undo the BAE/Dassault deal that it appeared both governments were on board with. This gets back to what is always a sticking point among governments as well because it looks like if you bought Talarion from EADS you would basically be getting a smaller Global Hawk less about 10 years of maturing development. You have to wonder if at any point both sides of the Atlantic will be able to buy from one another. But I honestly can't see the appeal of doing this particular project from a financial standpoint, particularly if you are not gaining anything (and by the looks of it likely getting less) from a capability standpoint.

They try to get around that by referring to this as a MALE (medium-altitude, long-endurance) UAV rather than a HALE (high-altitude, long-endurance) UAV like the Global Hawk but it is pretty clear what the thing is built to do. It looks and cost along the lines of a Global Hawk, not a Predator/Reaper/Grey Eagle type.

I suppose this could be seen as good news for EADS but to me it just seems like something that will delay closing what has to be a 10 year lag in deployment and maturity (Global Hawk has been flying since 1998 and operational in some from since the mid 2000's, Predator's have been around since 1995, Reaper since 2007 so take your pick). The various parties concerned can't seem to get out of their own way on this one.

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1585 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Thread starter):
A change in course would basically undo the BAE/Dassault deal that it appeared both governments were on board with.

Interesting decision, now one wonders what will happen to the NEURON.

Quoting BigJKU (Thread starter):
I suppose this could be seen as good news for EADS but to me it just seems like something that will delay closing what has to be a 10 year lag in deployment and maturity (Global Hawk has been flying since 1998 and operational in some from since the mid 2000's, Predator's have been around since 1995, Reaper since 2007 so take your pick). The various parties concerned can't seem to get out of their own way on this one.

You forget one thing: EADS is not just trying to make a UAV right now. Behind the doors they have worked many years on that technology and had also a "secret" UAV prototype the Barracuda, which was successfull.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4841 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 1):

You forget one thing: EADS is not just trying to make a UAV right now. Behind the doors they have worked many years on that technology and had also a "secret" UAV prototype the Barracuda, which was successfull.

Successful is pretty relative in this regards. It is not really close to being operational at all last I heard. They got the second one up flying again, which is something to build on but the aircraft they want to sell is Talarion at the moment which is several years away. To me the Barracuda looks like a testbed given its size.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1585 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4648 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 2):
Successful is pretty relative in this regards

No it's not, it's perfectly operational. The second prototype flew over Goose Bay fully autonomously, and landed perfectly safe.
The Barracuda could easily changed to a UCAV.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4622 times:

I read that NATO or EU will buy the Global Hawk? Or is it the Euro Hawk? Wouldn't it be cheaper just to buy whats on the market? Its not like our economy is in great shape in the EU.

User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1585 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4577 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 4):
I read that NATO or EU will buy the Global Hawk? Or is it the Euro Hawk?

Germany bought the GlobalHawk which will be modified by EADS(with Sensors) to the Eurohawk.

Of course would it be cheaper to buy existing UAV then developing one ourselfs.

The point is the technology and the skill to be competitive to the others.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 5):
The point is the technology and the skill to be competitive to the others.

That one is easy, merge with Northrop  


User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4484 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 3):
No it's not, it's perfectly operational. The second prototype flew over Goose Bay fully autonomously, and landed perfectly safe.
The Barracuda could easily changed to a UCAV.

The thing has a handful of test flights. I agree it could theoretically do these things but I think the easily part goes a bit far. They have built 2 of them and 1 crashed. And as far as I can see no one has ordered it into production and the main focus of the UK and France seems to have shifted to something in the Mantis/Telemos or Talarion size category all of which are two to three times the size of Barracuda.

If we have learned anything about military programs it should be that a handful of test flights does not make an operational system.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 5):
Of course would it be cheaper to buy existing UAV then developing one ourselfs.

The point is the technology and the skill to be competitive to the others.

I agree with you 100% here, that is why my criticism of Europe on this one is the constant back and forth on various programs. They need to pick at least one horse and ride it all the way to deployment of a higher end UAV in the MALE or HALE categories just to get the experience moving forward but they can't seem to get beyond the bickering between the various contractors about who will get to build what.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1585 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4412 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 7):
And as far as I can see no one has ordered it into production and the main focus of the UK and France seems to have shifted to something in the Mantis/Telemos or Talarion size category all of which are two to three times the size of Barracuda.

It's a technology platform and secret project between Spain and Germany within EADS. Has nothing to do with Mantis from BAE Systems or Dassault NEURON. Besides it's still in development, the Barracuda has some innovating features.
(Stealth, full composite structure etc..)

The crash was a software problem AFAIK.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 7):
They need to pick at least one horse and ride it all the way to deployment of a higher end UAV in the MALE or HALE categories just to get the experience moving forward but they can't seem to get beyond the bickering between the various contractors about who will get to build what.

I agree that all european defense company's should join to a project like the Typhoon on the UAV question.

However they are all different defense company's which are in competition and different country's behind/national interest. Each want's to have the edge over the other.

It was a mess until the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain(France withdrew) decided to make the Typhoon why it should be different in this matter.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4322 times:

Europeans can never cooperate, national pride gets in the way, always has been this way and probably stay this way. Sadly we all lose in the end by being stubborn nationalists.

User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1585 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 9):
Europeans can never cooperate, national pride gets in the way, always has been this way and probably stay this way. Sadly we all lose in the end by being stubborn nationalists.

So true..... However there have been some rays of light in the dark, Airbus a cooperation noone ever thought to be possible and even less so successfull. UK , France, Netherlands, Germany all wanted to make a own planes, all failed.

But together ...

Nr. 1



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4182 times:

Quoting autothrust (Reply 10):
So true..... However there have been some rays of light in the dark, Airbus a cooperation noone ever thought to be possible and even less so successfull. UK , France, Netherlands, Germany all wanted to make a own planes, all failed.

But together ...

Nr. 1

Sadly the new president in FR seems to be one of those FR above all politicians. In my country there as a growing scepticism about EU, small nations get run over by the big. Its going the wrong way IMO. Sadly politicians are about to end the EU project with their dictatorship in Brussels.


User currently offlineautothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1585 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 11):
In my country there as a growing scepticism about EU, small nations get run over by the big. Its going the wrong way IMO. Sadly politicians are about to end the EU project with their dictatorship in Brussels.

While this is offtopic, IMO the EU is a great idea. Together we have the power to overcome bigger obstacle then alone.
For example without EU Microsoft would make what they want with their OS ruling out competition, there would be much more gas guzzling cars and trucks without Euro 5, without, all Cellphones still would have each a unique power plug, higher Roaming costs, no ROHS, etc..

But to make such a huge contruct work is really difficult. Even more when most participants have a other culture, language, national interest.
I really hope they will listen more to the smaller country's and find a solution out of this crysis.



“Faliure is not an option.”
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