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Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters  
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Posted (1 year 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 11615 times:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/mis...pageID=238&nID=23802&NewsCatID=341
Probably a F4.
Hopefully Syria agrees to a S&R and they find the pilot/s. It has been 5 hours already.

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 11533 times:

It is still early but...
"Syria apoligizes taking down Turkish warplane"... What?
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/syr...pageID=238&nID=23802&NewsCatID=341
At least the pilots are safe.


User currently offlineRJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 21 hours ago) and read 11520 times:

If it is indeed shot down by Syrian forces, then this is quite an escellation. Some sources are saying it's an F-4..glad the pilots are OK.

I'm sure Syrian forces are tense especially since the incident of yesterday where a MiG-21 defected to an airbase in Mafraq, Jordan. The MiG was intercepted by RJAF F-16s which were on QRA from airbase in Al-Azraq.



Chance favors the prepared mind
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 11397 times:

Latest news;
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/no-...pageID=238&nID=23802&NewsCatID=341
Back to where it started; no news about the pilots, no idea how the plane went down.
Hope they rescue the pilots, it is going to get dark soon.


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 15 hours ago) and read 11086 times:

Now breaking news on BBC.com and also Turkish Hurriyet website says, the plane was shot down.
Wow, this is not good!


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 11032 times:

Interesting to note that the departure airport for the flight at Erhac is a forward base to Turkish AF RF-4 reconnaissance wing.

So if they were running intelligence flights over Syrian airspace, I can certainly see why they might act to protect their sovereignty.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 10974 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
So if they were running intelligence flights over Syrian airspace,

It might be the case, but from what I read this is supposed to be a routine flight over the Mediterranean toward Northern Cyprus.

Is this pretty common to fly these missions with only one plane, instead of pairs?
Wouldn't there be a rescue helicopter standing by and locatted closer than Erhac?
What is more likely, air to air or ground to air by Syrians to shoot it down?

Thanks.


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 10971 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 6):
Is this pretty common to fly these missions with only one plane, instead of pairs?

All reports as of now should be taken with a grain of salt, but it has been reported that they were indeed flying in pairs, both aircraft hit but the second Phantom returned to base with damage.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 10870 times:

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out yet that Turkey is a NATO member, and an attack on one NATO member is considered an attack on all NATO members...

Good luck with that, Bashar.


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 10866 times:

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 8):
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out yet that Turkey is a NATO member, and an attack on one NATO member is considered an attack on all NATO members...

I fail to see how a Turkish warplane being shot down over Syria constitutes an attack on Turkey. Good luck applying Article 5 here.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 9 hours ago) and read 10769 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 9):
shot down over Syria

Sorry, I missed the confirmation from both sides that the F-4 was, indeed, flying over Syrian territory/water... Can you quote a source?


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 7 hours ago) and read 10692 times:

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 10):

Sorry, I missed the confirmation from both sides that the F-4 was, indeed, flying over Syrian territory/water... Can you quote a source?

Only from the Syrian military. They claim to have shot it down after violating their airspace.

http://www.acus.org/natosource/offic...ium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Sure it's not exactly an unbiased source, but if you have evidence that it indeed wasn't over Syria/Syrian territorial waters, I'd love to see your sources.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13045 posts, RR: 78
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 10508 times:

What brought the F-4 down? A SAM?
Syria does have long range SAM's, it could be that they fired on the aircraft that was on the fringes of, or maybe flying in and out of, Syrian airspace.

Remember Syria is a paranoid military regime run by a minority tribe, who are of course, facing a prolonged uprising which, unlike in the past, their extreme brutality has not put down.

Turkey has been the one nation suggesting ways to protect Syrians from their own government by setting up safe havens to be guarded, on the ground and in the air, by NATO - predominately Turkish, forces.


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 10439 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 11):
Sure it's not exactly an unbiased source, but if you have evidence that it indeed wasn't over Syria/Syrian territorial waters, I'd love to see your sources.

Turkish President suggests this also;
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/23/world/...y-syria-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Quoting GDB (Reply 12):
What brought the F-4 down?

Sounds like Anti aircraft guns.

Still no news about the pilots.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1108 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 10308 times:

IF the aircraft was inside Syrian airspace by as much as one meter, all I have to say is congrats to the Syrian AA defences in proving that they can protect their sovereignty from foreign aggression. If that is the situation, I hope that it is a wakeup call to any involved parties that Syria is not Libya and although it would still fall to an overwhelming foreign invasion, it would be very costly. Russia needs to stop screwing around and provide the Syrian forces with some modern S-400 systems as this would be a great deterrent. ( want to try making Syria into a Libya? Ok, be prepared to lose half of the aircraft you send in!)


I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10265 times:

Is it not common to warn before you shoot? Anyway the territorial borders might be contested as well. Too little information is known to be sure of what happened.

Russia would be vary to get involved as Turkey could block their access through the passage way. Turkey is no Georgia..


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1108 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10238 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 15):
Russia would be vary to get involved as Turkey could block their access through the passage way. Turkey is no Georgia..

Not in Turkey's interest to do that. There is a clear treaty in place that gives the right to use the strait. Besides we also have a Northern fleet. Oh, and we can always show the illegal immigrants from turkey the door.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10017 times:

So there you go, its been confirmed that it was a RF-4E reconnaissance aircraft.

So go figure why it happened to "stray" into Syrian air space.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9878 times:

Map from Wall Street Journal showing purported path of the F-4 circling over Syria. Starts near Northern Cyprus, and plane shot down approx six miles west of the Syrian village of Umm al-Tuyour.




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9843 times:

Will Turkey play this down? What could they do really? Its not like they have a B2 stealth bomber..

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2062 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9786 times:
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Here's a link to an article in this afternoon's Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...6/22/gJQAt8SXxV_story.html?hpid=z1

Sounds like the sabre's are rattling louder!
And, yes, other NATO countries could become involved.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9685 times:

I don't think the will respond with direct force, they just have to arm the resistance and help them in any way. Hands off the dirty work..

User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9514 times:

So lets see if I have this right, Turkey violates Syria's airspace and their a/c is shot down.
Syria apologizes for protecting their territory and Turkey vows to respond with determination / force?

What exactly am I missing?


User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9498 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 22):
So lets see if I have this right, Turkey violates Syria's airspace and their a/c is shot down.
Syria apologizes for protecting their territory and Turkey vows to respond with determination / force?

Are these normal SOPs? If a Venezuelan AF jet violated US airspace, would the US shoot it down or intercept it first?


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9479 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 23):
Are these normal SOPs?

Which one, violating someones airspace or telling them how they are supposed to respond?

Syria's territory was violated, they are the aggrieved party, did Turkey advise them that they were coming to spy on them, or that their training flight would stray off course?

Syria should be protesting the violation, why exactly are they allowing Turkey to act as the damaged party?
If the a/c were shot down by AAA it had to be well within Syrian airspace and if the rumours are correct that they were fast and low when exactly were they supposed to scramble fighters to identify the intruder, on the way out?

I'm willing to bet that if the a/c was at altitude it would have been on radar and radio calls made and if no response then fighters would be scrambled, but that's their choice, missiles could still have been fired, after all, it is SOP for civilian a/c to have transponders on and in communication with ATC.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9748 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 24):
If the a/c were shot down by AAA it had to be well within Syrian airspace and if the rumours are correct that they were fast and low when exactly were they supposed to scramble fighters to identify the intruder, on the way out?

After the defection of the MiG-21, the Syrian Air Force has been grounded, so an interception was out of question anyway.


User currently offlinespudh From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9667 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 23):
Are these normal SOPs? If a Venezuelan AF jet violated US airspace, would the US shoot it down or intercept it first?

A certain Iran Air Flight 655 A300 might show just how easily that could happen, similarly the Korean 747 shot down by USSR. Not much effort spent on interception in either of those cases.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9812 times:

Any news on the pilots? No matter who was wrong, two pilots are missing.

User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10733 posts, RR: 38
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9813 times:

Quoting sweair (Reply 27):
Any news on the pilots? No matter who was wrong, two pilots are missing.

No news on the pilots but RT says they found the fighter Jet wreckage.

RT News line, June 24
14:35 permalink
Turkish jet wreckage reportedly found

­Rescuers have located the wreckage of the Turkish jet that was downed by Syrian air defense forces after entering Syrian airspace on Friday, Turkish TV reports.

http://www.rt.com/news/line/2012-06-24/#id33156

       



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 9802 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 25):
the Syrian Air Force has been grounded,

By Syria, not a third party, and possibly to prevent any further defections and or a pilot having a mental breakdown while in flight and dropping ordinance on the presidential palace or other government institutions.
If a US Navy Carrier gets close to the coast and launches F-18's to "view" the situation does anyone here expect the Syrian Air Force to stay grounded while the US Navy conducts its first hand inspection of the current situation in Syria?

It appears as if Turkey was wrong pure and simple, whatever we feel about Syria and what is taking place, if this shoot down is to be used as legal grounds at the Nato meeting to state that a member state has been attacked it has a hole in it large enough to drive a continent through. Let see the legal defenders rise up at the UN on this one



Quoting spudh (Reply 26):
A certain Iran Air Flight 655 A300 might show just how easily that could happen, similarly the Korean 747 shot down by USSR. Not much effort spent on interception in either of those cases.

True, and not much pounding the WWIII mantra when investigations showed how these mistakes happened, one when a military confrontation was taking place and the other when no confrontation was taking place.

Turkey is in the news a lot lately, lets hope they show the necessary consistency in their positions, provoking a fight with Syria is technically the same to their ship running the Israeli blockade, unless the pilots are found alive, in both cases persons have lost lives.


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 9704 times:
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Quoting spudh (Reply 26):
A certain Iran Air Flight 655 A300 might show just how easily that could happen, similarly the Korean 747 shot down by USSR. Not much effort spent on interception in either of those cases.

Except the Korean 747 WAS intercepted & downed by an air to air missile from a fighter.

Shooting down your neighbors aircraft is an act of last resort... Both sides have some explaining to do.



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9555 times:

Could be the excuse NATO and/or the West was looking for to enforce a no-fly zone over Syria, so their cowardly air force stops bombing their own population. Of course, in order to enforce a no-fly zone one has to first eliminate their air defense system.



User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13045 posts, RR: 78
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9322 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 14):
F the aircraft was inside Syrian airspace by as much as one meter, all I have to say is congrats to the Syrian AA defences in proving that they can protect their sovereignty from foreign aggression. If that is the situation, I hope that it is a wakeup call to any involved parties that Syria is not Libya and although it would still fall to an overwhelming foreign invasion, it would be very costly. Russia needs to stop screwing around and provide the Syrian forces with some modern S-400 systems as this would be a great deterrent. ( want to try making Syria into a Libya? Ok, be prepared to lose half of the aircraft you send in!)

Turkey, which however it may annoy Russians, is a democratic nation rather than a favourite blood soaked despot, is claiming that the aircraft was brought down by a SAM in international airspace. Who is right? I don't know and neither do you.

As for boasting about the greatness of Russian AD systems, a few despots have relied on them, Saddam Hussein in 1991, Slobbo the Butcher Of Belgrade in 1999, probably in his mind at least, Gaddafi last year.
How did that work out for them?
Indeed, 30 years ago Daddy Butcher Assad did the same with Soviet AD systems over the Beka Valley.
As well as Soviet aircraft, what was the score there, 80-0 to Israel I think.

Considering that an attempt to sneak attack choppers to Putin's buddy Assad recently foundered on a routine check by UK customs civil servants, I would not put much hope in SAM's getting there either.
A huge lake of Syrian blood to pay for long lost prestige and a naval base the Russians might use very occasionally these days.


User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9210 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18562210

I found this statement somewhat curious.

"It is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders... when you consider their speed over the sea," he added

Surely this is why aircraft have navigational instruments. Besides apparently he was in Syrian airspace long enough to be shot down.

It does not suggest exceptional technical competance, after all the route is supposed to be planned before take off, not worked out enroute.

Besides, he seems to regard his aircraft wandering into Syrian airspace as essentially a non issue, and would doubtless regard a Syrian aircraft flying into Turkey in the same casual manner.

IMO, unless it can be proved that the aircraft was attacked in international airspace, then any attempt to introduce a wider NATO role seems likely to fail.


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9002 times:
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Could the SAM have been launched when the pilot was in Syrian airspace, only for it to hit after he had bugged out? What would be the legal position if this was the case?

I sincerely hope that the lesson being taught to the pilot that day wasn't navigation....



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2032 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8961 times:

Turkey has called for a meeting at NATO to discuss an appropriate response.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18568207

IMHO, probably will result in NATO beefing up their task force in the Mediterranean Sea. It's also likely NATO will step up pressure on the Security Council for a resolution. China will probably back off further. Hopefully Russia does the same, or they'll risk escalating the conflict.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlinespudh From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 8590 times:

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 30):
Except the Korean 747 WAS intercepted & downed by an air to air missile from a fighter.

Sorry, I knew it was shot down by a fighter but I thought it was a long range shot. I didn't realise that the fighters had done a full intercept before firing missiles at it.

Tragic event either way.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8440 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 32):
As for boasting about the greatness of Russian AD systems, a few despots have relied on them, Saddam Hussein in 1991, Slobbo the Butcher Of Belgrade in 1999, probably in his mind at least, Gaddafi last year.
How did that work out for them?

I remember the anxiety back in 1990-1991 over Saddam's air defenses. As we all now know it was much to do about nothing.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 35):
IMHO, probably will result in NATO beefing up their task force in the Mediterranean Sea. It's also likely NATO will step up pressure on the Security Council for a resolution.

Do'nt be suprised if "surplus" Turkish Army weaponry shows up in the FSA. Gear like the Kornet-E which both Syria and Turkey has in it's inventory. I would guess that at least some of the FSA memebers have a bit of familiarity with it.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13045 posts, RR: 78
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8418 times:

Quoting spudh (Reply 36):
Sorry, I knew it was shot down by a fighter but I thought it was a long range shot. I didn't realise that the fighters had done a full intercept before firing missiles at it.

Tragic event either way.

It's gets worse, the SU-15's had cannon pods as well as AAM's. Warning shots were fired but it was night and no tracer rounds were in the pods.
Then they made the pilot they had ordered to use his AAM on the 747, fake up a cockpit recording to justify the lies they told.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13799 posts, RR: 63
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8228 times:

Are there any disputed borders in the area, e.g. like Libya´s Great Syrte bay, which acc. to Ghaddaifi was Libyan airspace, but acc. to the UN (and US) international?

Also there has been news from Turkey that Syria shot at a Turkish SAR aircraft looking for the pilots of the downed F-4.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...hooting-second-turkish-plane-claim

BTW, a few months ago Syrian troops have fired into Turkey at a refugee camp just across the border. IIRC there were casualties both among the refugees as among Turkish troops.

On the other hand Syria, Russia, China and Iran have declared to start a joint military training exercise in Syria with about 90.000 troops.

Jan


User currently offlinechuchoteur From France, joined Sep 2006, 750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8164 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
Also there has been news from Turkey that Syria shot at a Turkish SAR aircraft looking for the pilots of the downed F-4.

Reports suggest that the SAR aircraft was "lit up" by the syrians, but no shots fired... provocative, but maybe not the big incident it could have been.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7871 times:

They could have lit up the first aircraft instead of shooting it, just saying. Then this would have blown over in a second.

There is talk of turning off the electricity for Syria..I don't think Turkey or NATO wants an armed conflict, they can do a lot of damage in other ways, like arming the resistance, providing them with intel, help more officers deflects etc.

This will be a proxy war most likely. Assad will be handled by his own people, it seems like many in his command don't believe in killing civilians.


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7789 times:
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Perhaps such incursions are routine among neighbouring states and the Syrian forces were on high alert due to the current unrest, this leading to the shoot down.

I agree that if Turkey try to use this to invoke NATO defense support it will be seem an intentional provocations of self defense..... regardless of the actions of the Syrian regime.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1277 posts, RR: 3
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7796 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 14):
Russia needs to stop screwing around and provide the Syrian forces with some modern S-400 systems as this would be a great deterrent.

Unless they're implemented as part of a comprehensive Air Defense network and crewed by Russian operators they'd be better targets than anything else.



We live in an age surrounded by complex machines but the basic knowledge of the average punter is minimal. -GDB
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7657 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
On the other hand Syria, Russia, China and Iran have declared to start a joint military training exercise in Syria with about 90.000 troops.



I've heard that same story and wondered what could possibly be gained by Russia and China to take part in such an exercise. Turns out that the story first appeared in FARS, the government of Iran's official mouthpiece. Syria and Russia have gone on record to deny such an exercise was going to take place.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ia-exercises-idUSBRE85I0YG20120619


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7537 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 44):
I've heard that same story and wondered what could possibly be gained by Russia and China to take part in such an exercise.

Same thing that the US attempts to gain when they park a carrier off the coast of countries getting ready to do battle, cool and calm down the situation.

Turkey sent an a/c over Syrian territory - anyone believe it was an accident - and got a response, now they are ringing the bells of war. Imagine Turkey doing a cross border raid in an area where Russina and Chinese troops are stationed.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13799 posts, RR: 63
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7478 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 45):
Turkey sent an a/c over Syrian territory - anyone believe it was an accident - and got a response, now they are ringing the bells of war. Imagine Turkey doing a cross border raid in an area where Russina and Chinese troops are stationed.

As I mentioned, about two months ago Syrian troops opened fire into a refugee camp close to the border between Turkey and Syria, but on Turkish soil. IIRC some Turkish soldiers and refugees got killed. Turkey has shown remarkable restraint back then.

Jan


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7378 times:

Latest Turkish news site says; besides their boots, pilots helmet is found:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/20853540.asp
It has been almost 5 days since the incident, what do you make of this latest news?
Thanks.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7362 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
As I mentioned, about two months ago Syrian troops opened fire into a refugee camp close to the border between Turkey and Syria, but on Turkish soil.

Yes, and Syria stated that they received fire from the Turkish side and they responded, the incident was world news, was an independent investigation conducted?
Events have spiralled since then so I may be out of touch.


User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1806 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7170 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 47):
Latest Turkish news site says; besides their boots, pilots helmet is found:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/20853540.asp
It has been almost 5 days since the incident, what do you make of this latest news?
Thanks.

It looks like both of them are lost, maybe they had no time to escape?


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7074 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 45):
Same thing that the US attempts to gain when they park a carrier off the coast of countries getting ready to do battle, cool and calm down the situation.


There's a big difference between parking a carrier in international waters where the average Joe can't see it and having thousands of troops on the ground.

Quoting par13del (Reply 45):
Turkey sent an a/c over Syrian territory - anyone believe it was an accident - and got a response, now they are ringing the bells of war..


Syrian helicopters have strayed into Turkish airspace without the same response.

Quoting par13del (Reply 45):
Imagine Turkey doing a cross border raid in an area where Russina and Chinese troops are stationed.


I don't think the Turks are the ones they would be worried about. More like the reaction from the FSA that might find foreign soldiers to tempting a target.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7047 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 50):
There's a big difference between parking a carrier in international waters where the average Joe can't see it and having thousands of troops on the ground.

Politically no, whenever the US parks a carrier off the coast of any nation to influence the situation on the ground they always make sure that the parties involved in the dispute are aware of the deployment, if the parties are unaware there would be no point unless the US was not trying to influence the situation and was simply supporting combat operations. So far they have always been deployed in these type situations to allow cooler heads to prevail.
Russia and China unfortunately do not have super carriers and their naval fleet has been decaying, so what military assets do they have to influence a situation..........they appear to have chosen boots on the ground, the method may be different but I am going on the assumption that the intent is the same. Bear in mind also that their intent is to influence Turkey and probably NATO, a couple ships may not mean anything to Turkey but a few thousands foreign soldiers may create a pause. Imagine the US deploying more troops on the Iraqi border with Turkey, would Turkey think twice about harming US soldiers when they cross the border to attack Kurds?

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 50):
Syrian helicopters have strayed into Turkish airspace without the same response.

Based on the level of talk coming out of Turkey, if it happens now we can expect the a/c to be shot down. The two nations are at loggerheads, and have been so for a period of time before the shoot down.
I am not blaming the victim but conducting military training flights that close to a potential foe when you have access to hundreds of miles of clear borders and open sea far away from your foe is not too bright, unless you were trying to make a point, in which case we are where both parties expected to be.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7078 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 51):
they appear to have chosen boots on the ground, the method

No they are not, Syria has already denied the before mentioned exercises were taking place. So this whole argument is really a moot point.

Quoting par13del (Reply 51):
Russia and China unfortunately do not have super carriers and their naval fleet has been decaying, so what military assets do they have to influence a situation...

China's navy is not decaying, it is being built up. They just dont have the force projection the USN does.

Quoting par13del (Reply 51):
Politically no, whenever the US parks a carrier off the coast of any nation to influence the situation on the ground they always make sure that the parties involved in the dispute are aware of the deployment, if the parties are unaware there would be no point unless the US was not trying to influence the situation and was simply supporting combat operations. So far they have always been deployed in these type situations to allow cooler heads to prevail.

It's still different poliitically. Do you think the FSA would care if the Russians parked some ships off the coast? Not really since they don't have the capability to attack them. What they would have is the capabaility to attack foreiegn soldiers they percieve as aiding the Assad regime. With troops on the ground in what is esentially a civil war all you are really doing is adding powder to the powder keg. Not that it really matters since it's not happening anyway.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7061 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 52):
No they are not, Syria has already denied the before mentioned exercises were taking place. So this whole argument is really a moot point.

I regard it as a discussion, so a learning tool also.  
Question, did floating the idea out there have any effect?

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 52):
With troops on the ground in what is esentially a civil war all you are really doing is adding powder to the powder keg.

Well if outside parties are arming rebels, powder is already being added, violence begets violence I think we can all agree on that, the issue is whether it has to be this way. Obviously, the locals do not believe that they have any other option but to take up arms, once again the UN and the international community are found wanting.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2011 posts, RR: 4
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7008 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 52):
Syria has already denied the before mentioned exercises were taking place.

Yeah, the only exercise taking place is probably the Russians preparing to go in to evacuate their people. The Iranians and Chinese would do the same if they have the resources.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6328 times:

According to BBC the bodies of the pilots were found by a US recovery ship.
RIP to pilots


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10733 posts, RR: 38
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6308 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 55):
the bodies of the pilots were found by a US recovery ship.

The man who found the Titanic wreck was hired by Turkey to find the two pilots bodies.

From the Telegraph

Titanic discoverer locates Turkish pilots shot down by Syria

Turkey recruited the services of Robert Ballard, a renowned oceanographer who discovered the wreckage of the Titanic in 1985, to locate the remains of the F-4 Phantom and its two missing crew members.

The bodies of Gokhan Ertan and Hasan Huseyin Aksov were located by the MV Nautilus, an American deep-sea exploration vessel led by Mr Ballard. The boat is now attempting to retrieve the remains of the two men.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ish-pilots-shot-down-by-Syria.html

RIP Turkish jet pilots



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4299 posts, RR: 12
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6181 times:

Here some pictures from the recovery, boots, helmets, parts of the plane sitting at the bottom of the sea;
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr//g...leridetay.aspx?cid=57994&rid=2&p=1


User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7209 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6103 times:

No clues yet about if it is in Syrian, Turkish or international waters.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13799 posts, RR: 63
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6072 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 58):
No clues yet about if it is in Syrian, Turkish or international waters.

It appears that the border is disputed as well:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18689037


Jan


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24325 posts, RR: 47
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5870 times:

Aircraft wreckage was found well withing Syrian waters, and is what is being reported widely by the Turkish press.

The wreckage was found 8.6miles from the Syrian coast. Territorial waters legal limit as defined by the UN is 12-miles (red line)

http://ptisidiastima.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/map-ph-copy1.jpg

Also the Turkish Air Force released additional information on the aircraft flight track. Also can be seen its made runs in and out of Syria.

http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/safak-46.jpg

=



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
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