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Rafale M Crashed  
User currently offlinecarras From Spain, joined Jan 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 7315 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Yesterday a Rafale M24 was in a joint exercise with a US Navy F18 over the Mediterranean sea, close to the island of Ibiza, loose the control and ditched in the water. More info here (in french):

http://www.air-cosmos.com/defense/un...arine-s-abime-en-mediterranee.html

Cheers

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7257 times:

Airplane damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)

Narrative:
Crashed at sea during a simulated dog fight with an F-18 of USS Eisenhower.

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=146597

Pilot ejected and recuperated by a US helicopter and brought back on the platform of Charles de Gaulle French aircraft carrier. His health condition causing no concern after the crash.

http://www.letelegramme.com/ig/gener...editerranee-03-07-2012-1760236.php

RIP Rafale

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinecarras From Spain, joined Jan 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7192 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Some days before I was able to take a photograph of the crashed Rafale.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Franc...d=ff87c8ac33d5ea632806f88069d8e030

Cheers, and thanks for the info.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 7172 times:

Quoting carras (Reply 2):
Some days before I was able to take a photograph of the crashed Rafale.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Franc...d=ff87c8ac33d5ea632806f88069d8e030

Thank you for posting your picture. I have seen them doing flying demos at air shows countless numbers of times. They are some powerful loud beasts!

It seems that the French Air Force has lost a few Rafale fighter jets during operations.

http://www.strategypage.com/military...orums/6-73729.aspx#startofcomments

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...entral-france-pilot-killed-220161/

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ost-in-mediterranean-crash-332746/

and then this most recent crash.

What is it that makes these Rafale fighter jets crash? Must not be an easy machine to handle even for the most expert pilots of this type.

      



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 7120 times:

I know they have landed and launched from a US carrier, but could a F18 land on a french carrier? This would be a win for France as they could follow along USN even if their carrier was out of order or something, didnt they actually fly of a us carrier to attack targets in Afghanistan?

User currently offlinecarras From Spain, joined Jan 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 7043 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Looks like that the origin is something related with the lost of control due to wake turbulence of the F18 during the dogfight. First investigations are going this way.

User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2266 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6998 times:

Dogfighting off of Ibiza? Certainly enough distractions there to cause some disorientation.

User currently offlinecarras From Spain, joined Jan 2005, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6984 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

There is a LED (Dangerous zone) in the coast between Valencia and the island of Ibiza, over the sea, this airspace is reserved only for military use. I know it´s difficult to concentrate with such beautiful islands close . 

Cheers.


User currently offlinejollo From Italy, joined Aug 2011, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6979 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
What is it that makes these Rafale fighter jets crash? Must not be an easy machine to handle even for the most expert pilots of this type.

Well, out of 4 hull losses in 10 years of operations (before yesterday), 1 has been ascribed to spatial awareness loss, 2 to mid-air collision and 1 to a fuel system malfunction / management error: doesn't look like a record spelling "problematic handling" .

Besides, some informed opinions (e.g. Peter Collins' here) credit the Rafale with being quite easy and intuitive to fly.

[Edited 2012-07-03 07:12:53]

User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6950 times:

Why all these crashes?

now two RAF Tornado jets...

The RAF is co-ordinating a search and rescue operation after reports of two RAF Tornado jets crashing in the Moray Firth.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said the Tornado GR4s were from RAF Lossiemouth, on the Moray coast.

         



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6740 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
Why all these crashes?

Flying fighter jets is a risky business and things happen.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3766 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6631 times:

Peacetime attrition...

Glad the jockey made it ok. I hope they can extract lessons from this.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6667 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5878 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
It seems that the French Air Force has lost a few Rafale fighter jets during operations.

What is it that makes these Rafale fighter jets crash? Must not be an easy machine to handle even for the most expert pilots of this type.

It's normal attrition, every military type crashes every now and then, because they're used to the fullest of their abilities.

Quoting sweair (Reply 4):
I know they have landed and launched from a US carrier, but could a F18 land on a french carrier? This would be a win for France as they could follow along USN even if their carrier was out of order or something, didnt they actually fly of a us carrier to attack targets in Afghanistan?

F-18 on the CDG, I don't know, well I know, it's yes but with a reduced payload, so not really useful. As for the opposite situation, I don't really see why the USN would give space to a wing of Rafale, at least we're not counting on it. For a time there was talk about sharing a carrier with the British, but they chose to stay with VTOL aircraft so that couldn't work. Now they don't know anymore, but since we're each downsizing our military forces...

Quoting carras (Reply 5):
Looks like that the origin is something related with the lost of control due to wake turbulence of the F18 during the dogfight. First investigations are going this way.

Interesting. Why do dog-fighting (which is never going to happen in a real war) if there is that danger ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2110 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5844 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 12):
Interesting. Why do dog-fighting (which is never going to happen in a real war) if there is that danger ?

Who said its not going to happen? It happened in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and in Iraq. British had dogfights in the Falklands. Isreal has had dogfights in several wars. Granted in most of the more recent wars the dogfighting was much more lopsided than during the world wars, but it still happend.. a lot. And during Iraq a lot of warplanes fled, but some did dogfight.

And more important than that.. when you think you don't have to dogfight anymore.. and stop equipping aircraft to do so, and stop teaching and practicing the techniques necassary to do so, it very probably will bite you in the ass. It happened to us during the Vietnam war, it took years to correct, and I hope we never again have to relearn that lesson that hard way.

Keep a gun on the aircraft regardless of what BVR off boresite whiz bang gizmos are hanging from the rails and keep pilots proficient in 9 g turning engagements and the art of dogfighting.. every time we've thought we moved on from that, we were wrong.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlinejderden777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1755 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5716 times:

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 13):
Keep a gun on the aircraft regardless of what BVR off boresite whiz bang gizmos are hanging from the rails and keep pilots proficient in 9 g turning engagements and the art of dogfighting.. every time we've thought we moved on from that, we were wrong.

  

Absolutely agree with you, HaveBlue. The USAF learned this the hard way, and those lessons will not be forgotten. BFM is intrinsic to the fighter world.

jd



"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2353 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5352 times:
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Quoting jderden777 (Reply 14):
Absolutely agree with you, HaveBlue. The USAF learned this the hard way, and those lessons will not be forgotten. BFM is intrinsic to the fighter world.

While certainly true in the Vietnam era (four decades ago), there have been darn few air-to-air engagements settled with guns in more recent times. In the first Gulf War for example, of the 41 aerial kills, two were with guns - and both of these were A-10 v. helicopter. No allied fighters shot anything down with guns.

The question is whether the lessons of Vietnam still apply. Unlike then, we do know that relatively short range ACM encounters do occur, *and* we actually have highly effective short range missiles. Sure, a fighter jock will always want a gun if you ask him that in isolation, but what will he say if you offer him an extra 1000lbs of fuel or an extra pair of Sidewinders instead of the gun?


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6667 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5100 times:

I had heard of the Vietnam story (and don't think they apply today, well, I think the lesson is learned that you need some close range capability, not necessarily a gun) but was still searching for the more recent examples, thanks rwessel for clearing that up.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 881 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
I had heard of the Vietnam story (and don't think they apply today, well, I think the lesson is learned that you need some close range capability, not necessarily a gun) but was still searching for the more recent examples, thanks rwessel for clearing that up.

I think one would also do well to remember that Vietnam and Korea were situations where US fighters would get bounced by fighters operating from untouchable (for political reasons) airbases in an era before PGM's and AWAC's were in wide-spread use.

In an era where you can chuck around cruise missiles hundreds of miles and things like JDAM's and SDB's dozens of miles and hit basically anything you can see the other side more likely than not is going to be forced up to fight or be destroyed on the ground.

I agree with those that say you need to stay proficient in the art, at the very least it teaches one how to fly an aircraft to its limits which is always useful. That being said the overall lethality of munitions has advanced so much since even the Gulf War I that these things will be resolved very very quickly in my view.


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