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Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport  
User currently offlinekapnoc4389 From Mexico, joined Sep 2011, 8 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15375 times:

I just found this article(sorry only in Spanish) about Mexico looking for a new Presidential transport and the first choice would be the 787. To summarize the article:

"Mexican officials have approached Boeing to replace the current TP-01(B757). According to company sources the model that best suits the necessities of Mexican officials is the Boeing 787. Boeing representatives told the newspaper that the aircraft is available and it can be delivered immediately since it is one of the first ones to be built and used for test flights and certification."

On a personal note, I would love to see the 787 in Mexican Presidential transport colors, and even better a new more modern design to better suit the 787.


Link:
http://www.excelsior.com.mx/index.ph...555&seccion=seccion-nacional&cat=1

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 401 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 15353 times:
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The 787 makes a lot of sense as a Presidential transport for most countries. Hopefully Mexico goes with it.

User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2120 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15267 times:

Quoting kapnoc4389 (Thread starter):
Mexico looking for a new Presidential transport and the first choice would be the 787

Price tag of about US$200M with 44% of the population living below the poverty line.. perhaps the Mexican government ought to rethink its priorities.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlinethrufru From Marshall Islands, joined Feb 2009, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15256 times:

I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15140 times:

Hopefully!

There is one thing I find very sad as an aviation enthusiast and it is that local media has demonized this plan of the Ministry of Defense and the President's office. The criticism basically goes along these lines: in a country where there are so many social needs that need to be addressed and resolved urgently, it is dispendious, even extravagant, to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a new airplane to haul the President around.

I suppose the media and those who are always finding something to criticize fail to see that the current Presidential planes (757s) are old and not efficient in terms of fuel consumption, and that the President needs to make a series of stops all over the world when traveling long haul. For better or worse, the reality is that heads of state need to have modern and efficient long-haul aircraft to take them on official trips abroad. Plus, in a country with a GDP of 1.16 trillion dollars and with international reserves at the central bank of 150+ billion dollars, one or two 787s do not seem extravagant or overly expensive to me. Sure, I suppose the President could get instead one or two A321NEOs or 737-9MAX aircraft with additional fuel tanks, but those would take years to be delivered and I wonder if the savings would be meaningful enough. In addition, a narrowbody plane with extra fuel tanks might not be spacious enough to haul the entourage of the President during his official trips.

Too bad the guy who will get to enjoy the new plane during the next six years is a nefarious idiot, but that is a whole different topic!



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15137 times:
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I think the 787s will be the Presidential airplane of choice for several countries, mainly because of its size (not too big, not too small), and range, amongs other things

User currently offlinekapnoc4389 From Mexico, joined Sep 2011, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 15138 times:

According to the article they are looking to finance it and the petition was for 120 million. Currently the Mexican armed forces are renewing their fleets, since they are more than 25 years old.

User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2716 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14973 times:


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Mexico Air Transport 1 is not an old bird considering that its entire life has been spent as a private plane, and its total cycles must be registering comparatively low to an average commercial 757 of the same type and age.

Back in the days, the president of Mexico would charter a DC-8 from then state-controlled AeroMexico for his trips abroad when the presidential plane was insufficient for his needs.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/18778_293309404647_4372579_n.jpg

With Mexico's security situation today this would not be a practical solution in the name of saving tax payer money. The argument being used is that the aircraft--which was originally purchased for $43 million back in 1988---is costing the government a hefty sum in order to maintain now that it is almost 25-years old. The plane was purchased from Boeing with a twelve year financing plan and an APR interest rate of 12%. In 2007, the plane received $67 million worth of upgrades in order to keep it in top shape and in the coming years will require another significant investment in order to update its security and safety systems with the latest technology. With the current level of security problems in the country the government is proactively looking at this expense as a wise investment in order to ensure the president's safety and security by acquiring the latest safety systems that will not only protect him but allow him to exercise his duty as president while on the plane in case of an emergency, while at the same time also acquiring a more efficient plane.

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:23:09]

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:24:03]

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14950 times:

I say go for it. Make the cheatlines in the Dreamliner wavy design like what UA is doing with it's upcoming 787's. I think that wavy cheatline should come standard in the paintshop.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9592 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14877 times:

Boeing is retiring the first three 787s. The next 3 are certifiable, but overweight and not ideal for airline operations. No airline wants line numbers 4-6. I assume Boeing would give the Mexican government an extremely good deal on these airplanes, and a deal probably can be made to get maintenance support tied to AeroMexico’s 787s. The early build 787s likely are of no use to anyone other than as BBJ/VIP airplanes. They will come with a less than ideal configuration and maintenance program because of all the rework. However for an operator that only has one airplane, it isn't as much of a concern.

This sounds like a smart decision for the Mexican government.

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:14:22]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 951 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14748 times:
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One question about presidential airplanes,

Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ can take all over the world for a third of the money


User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2120 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 14687 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ

because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25062 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 14583 times:

How about a 767-300ER ?

Some commonality including with cockpit crews to the 757, and surely cheaper than a 787.

Also the 767 is well know in Mexico with parts availability, and mechanics when needed.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2716 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 14539 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):

How about a 767-300ER ?

Some commonality including with cockpit crews to the 757, and surely cheaper than a 787.


From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price. If Boeing sells this 787 at a loss it would be a great sales win for Boeing. While perhaps it may seem a bit too much of an aircraft, if we go back and look at the facts, we can see that back in the early 1990s the decision to keep a brand new 757 during the tequila financial crisis was also highly criticized, but today we can see that this aircraft has more than paid for itself twice in the 25 years of service it has provided the country.

If we look at what this airplane has also helped the country achieve since 1990, when the aircraft arrived, Mexico changed drastically from being an extremely closed protectionist country to one that today has arranged free trade agreements with 44 countries. Mexico's exports to all countries increased 475% from 1994 to 2011 to the tune of $61 billion to $350 billion, and its imports during the same period increased 342%. Mexican tourism and aviation industries has greatly benefited from the president's promotional trips abroad. Mexican airlines have been secured valuable landing rights to foreign airports thanks to the president's diplomatic negotiations. For example, AM secured up to four landing rights per week to congested Narita even before Emirates was ever allowed to land there. So, again while a 787 may pump up the president of Mexico with self importance as Viaggiare suggest, if it is used wisely to promote trade, business, investments, and political goodwill for Mexico in the next 25 years then it will probably be good a return on its investment for the country.

Lastly, while the 757 was obtained with a 12% APR terms, at a time when Mexico's credit rating was in the trash, I'm sure the financing package available today will be a much sweeter rate thanks to Mexico's financial strength and its very healthy credit rating.

My own personal opinion.

[Edited 2012-07-24 19:36:06]

[Edited 2012-07-24 19:40:41]

User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 14433 times:

Whilst I am aware of the uses of "Bizjets" which this essentially is, I always find it hard to stomach these same people, who are supposed to be public servants buying these things for their use, (often including private use) with my money.

They are also frequently calling for "belt tightening" from the man in the street at the same time.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2093 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 14315 times:

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 13):
From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price.

The frame may be bargain basement. The interiors and the engines would probably not be discounted.

Still it would be a good buy. I was hoping that Paul Allen would one of those early frame to fly our local American Football team.   

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 878 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 14292 times:

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 11):
Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ

because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.

There is actually more to it than that.

Depending on the nation there are vastly different needs for air transport.

For example Air Force One makes a lot of sense for the US as it has certain communication and security requirements that necessitate the large frame. This is not necessary for most nations that don't have nuclear deterrence to consider so you generally see smaller airplanes used.

But a 787 is not an outsized aircraft for a nation like Mexico. You have to consider that some level of office/communications must be present for a head of state. Additionally you generally are going to have to transport support staff and reporters (a big issue for democratic countries) around on your government aircraft for official trips. There probably is some ego in getting bigger national transport planes but there is practical purposes as well. They are also a pretty small expense for almost all nations in the grand scheme of things.


User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3925 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 14282 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 16):
and reporters (a big issue for democratic countries)

In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 878 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 14277 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 17):
In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.

That is a fairly uninformed rant. The media pays to fly on Air Force One. I have no idea what other nations do. They are transported there because it is important for the people to see what the President is doing. But they pay their way on the aircraft.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2093 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14258 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 18):
But they pay their way on the aircraft.

And they are more than willing to pay fare value to be close to any leader. I bet, that even if they have to pay premium prices to fly with a presidential plane vs saving money flying tourist class, major media outlet will pay the extra money just to be that much closer to their story.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3925 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14110 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 18):

That is a fairly uninformed rant. The media pays to fly on Air Force One. I

Okay. I still find it a surprising arrangement.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14083 times:

Quoting thrufru (Reply 3):
I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.
Quoting kapnoc4389 (Reply 6):
According to the article they are looking to finance it and the petition was for 120 million.
Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 13):
From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price. If Boeing sells this 787 at a loss it would be a great sales win for Boeing.

Quite a good deal for both Boeing and the Mexican government. Boeing gets an $11B order from AM and the FAM gets a state-of-the-art transport with the range for almost all conceivable presidential missions, at a bonus price. Win-win!   

[Edited 2012-07-26 08:48:35]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinespink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 318 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13941 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 17):
In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.

It the real world it is often not viable for the media to fly commercial given the itineraries that are generally flow by heads of state, esp in the modern world where airport security can require pre-checkin times longer than the actual stop duration. The only real alternative would be either a fleet of private planes or the media pooling together and chartering a larger plane, both of which present logistic issues. You also have to consider that not all head of state itineraries are pre-published. And there are also cases where there are no viable commercial means of going where the head of state is going in a timely fashion (think natural disasters/national emergencies). Therefore, it makes sense to provide at least limited seating for media on head of state flights. Remember that the media provides a proxy for the openness and information which in theory is needed for a republic or a democracy to function.

If Mexico can get a 787 at a good discount, it seems perfectly reasonable to do so. It is a new plane that will be in commercial service for the next 30+ years. 757s only have so much life left in them, and operating a type after the vast majority of operators have stopped can be very costly, esp with a 30+ year old plane.


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13850 times:
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Quoting thrufru (Reply 3):
I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.

Yes, however like Air Force One's VC-25's... we paid a LOT more for them due to the airframes being heavily modified for security etc...so they will still pay well for this bird, whatever they get if it's "new".


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13824 times:

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 7):
In 2007, the plane received $67 million worth of upgrades in order to keep it in top shape and in the coming years will require another significant investment in order to update its security and safety systems with the latest technology. With the current level of security problems in the country the government is proactively looking at this expense as a wise investment in order to ensure the president's safety and security by acquiring the latest safety systems that will not only protect him but allow him to exercise his duty as president while on the plane in case of an emergency, while at the same time also acquiring a more efficient plane.

Well said.

I think a good world presence for the leader of an important nation is well worth the price.

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 11):
because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 21):
Quite a good deal for both Boeing and the Mexican government. Boeing gets an $11B order from AM and the FAM gets a state-of-the-art transport with the range for almost all conceivable presidential missions, at a bonus price.

Thanks for the view from cynic's corner!

Quite often I am there myself, but for whatever reason, I will not join you today.

Quoting spink (Reply 22):
It the real world it is often not viable for the media to fly commercial given the itineraries that are generally flow by heads of state, esp in the modern world where airport security can require pre-checkin times longer than the actual stop duration.

And given that they quite often fly to private or military airfields....

Quoting 135mech (Reply 23):
Yes, however like Air Force One's VC-25's... we paid a LOT more for them due to the airframes being heavily modified for security etc..

IIRC we paid to put 747-400 engines onto the 747-200 frame, no?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 135mech : I just contacted my friends over there, and they confirmed that they are -200 series engines.
26 Max Q : The VC25 has the same engines as the 747-400. Incidentally that Mexican Government 757 must be an ex Eastern Airlines model if it's a -225. Don't thin
27 rfields5421 : First - a plane like that won't cost 'a third of the money'. As mentioned above Boeing is heavily discounting 787 frames 4-6 - which would likely put
28 PPVRA : Brazil is looking for something bigger than the A319CJ currently operated. While I thinks this is completely unnecessary, if it is going to happen, wh
29 sweair : Even if the first frames are 5-6t overweight the range will be enough as a VIP plane never travels filled to its gills, the terrible teens should have
30 bikerthai : One thing about flying the 787 vs the 757 will be the global availability of parts through Boeing spares network for the next 20+ years. When you have
31 Revelation : Why would you put tons of money into customizing something that is at the end of its production life? Spares, etc are only going to get costlier and
32 135mech : I just recieved an e-mail from another one of my engine friends, and they are equipped with the CF6-80's as the 400's are. Apologies on the Friday ba
33 747classic : Some hairsplitting : The VC25's are powered by digital supervised, mechanical controlled( Non Fadec) CF6-80C2B1 engines . This type of engine cannot
34 Post contains images Marcus : The price the local media is quoting is of $140-160 million, that is just for the plane itself...I'm sure there will be a sort of maintenance/service/
35 rfields5421 : I like how they are comparing the capacity. A 66 seat 'all first' or executive layout 757 aircraft to a 290 seat high density Y config 787-9. The B757
36 Post contains images FF22DXB : The best is the description about the engines!!
37 Aesma : They can. Until recently the French president used either a Falcon (several models) or an A319ACJ. Now the main plane is an A330 but for short trips
38 Post contains images Fyano773 : Back on topic, I started a thread in the general aviation forum about this same subject, but it was deleted, albeit there is a very interesting disuss
39 rcair1 : Why? The intent is to prove that there is no favoritism applied to the current politician by the press getting a 'free ride'. It is to maintain impar
40 XT6Wagon : If the frame price is cheap enough... A345's for example should make quite good VIP frames as they have no resale value on the used market, but have
41 bennett123 : So what will they do with the B757, (FedEx?).
42 bikerthai : Which leads to this nugget. With a composite frame, fatigue life is no longer a major issue. You can fly the frame for as long you can support it wit
43 Max Q : Why would a composite airframe not be affected by fatigue ? That makes no sense.
44 bikerthai : "Fatigue" as in crack growth. There are other types of degradation with respect to composite, but crack prorogation is not an issue with composite as
45 Post contains links LatinPlane : http://www.eluniversaltv.com.mx/detalle.php?d=31551 Some news in Spanish from Mexico's www.eluniversal.com.mx
46 Post contains links LatinPlane : And there it is... according to this report seems like the budget has been approved and will be left to the next president to sign and move forward. I
47 bikerthai : Wow that was fast. How long ago did they start work on this? It would have taken years if not decades for something like this go go through procureme
48 Post contains links LatinPlane : The project has been in evaluation for some time. The issue here was not acquiring a flamboyant plane for prestige, but rather upgrading the entire d
49 BigJKU : One does have to remember that AF1 levels of tech and security are derived from the Presidents unique role as national command authority for a nation
50 Post contains links LatinPlane : This is a really good point you make. But all countries have different needs and requirements and this is just one of many variables involved in this
51 AR385 : Given the big void in our Constitution regarding what happens if the President dies. And the huge instability that would produce, getting a plane lik
52 Post contains images bikerthai : Sure, the process in upgrading Mexico's Presidential plane may have been a long time in process, I was surprised on how flexible the decision making
53 Post contains images AirRyan : How often does the Mexican president travel, or rather need to travel? A new 787 seems like overkill, a new 767 could probably be had relatively cheap
54 Revelation : It's nice to see this process going forward smoothly and without a lot of fuss. Mexico is probably getting the bargain of a generation on the airfram
55 bikerthai : Maybe not considering they are not building many new 767 passenger liner right now. Most of the ones they are building are freighter versions. You'll
56 PPVRA : How much of a concern is this considering such a frame is looking at a low utilization life? A340s will be around a while still, and then there are t
57 bikerthai : The availability of engine parts would be the most critical. From a parts fabrication stand point, with the newer airplanes using more hi-speed machi
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