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Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport  
User currently offlinekapnoc4389 From Mexico, joined Sep 2011, 8 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 week ago) and read 15023 times:

I just found this article(sorry only in Spanish) about Mexico looking for a new Presidential transport and the first choice would be the 787. To summarize the article:

"Mexican officials have approached Boeing to replace the current TP-01(B757). According to company sources the model that best suits the necessities of Mexican officials is the Boeing 787. Boeing representatives told the newspaper that the aircraft is available and it can be delivered immediately since it is one of the first ones to be built and used for test flights and certification."

On a personal note, I would love to see the 787 in Mexican Presidential transport colors, and even better a new more modern design to better suit the 787.


Link:
http://www.excelsior.com.mx/index.ph...555&seccion=seccion-nacional&cat=1

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 396 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 week ago) and read 15001 times:
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The 787 makes a lot of sense as a Presidential transport for most countries. Hopefully Mexico goes with it.

User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2120 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14915 times:

Quoting kapnoc4389 (Thread starter):
Mexico looking for a new Presidential transport and the first choice would be the 787

Price tag of about US$200M with 44% of the population living below the poverty line.. perhaps the Mexican government ought to rethink its priorities.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlinethrufru From Marshall Islands, joined Feb 2009, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14904 times:

I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7561 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14788 times:

Hopefully!

There is one thing I find very sad as an aviation enthusiast and it is that local media has demonized this plan of the Ministry of Defense and the President's office. The criticism basically goes along these lines: in a country where there are so many social needs that need to be addressed and resolved urgently, it is dispendious, even extravagant, to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a new airplane to haul the President around.

I suppose the media and those who are always finding something to criticize fail to see that the current Presidential planes (757s) are old and not efficient in terms of fuel consumption, and that the President needs to make a series of stops all over the world when traveling long haul. For better or worse, the reality is that heads of state need to have modern and efficient long-haul aircraft to take them on official trips abroad. Plus, in a country with a GDP of 1.16 trillion dollars and with international reserves at the central bank of 150+ billion dollars, one or two 787s do not seem extravagant or overly expensive to me. Sure, I suppose the President could get instead one or two A321NEOs or 737-9MAX aircraft with additional fuel tanks, but those would take years to be delivered and I wonder if the savings would be meaningful enough. In addition, a narrowbody plane with extra fuel tanks might not be spacious enough to haul the entourage of the President during his official trips.

Too bad the guy who will get to enjoy the new plane during the next six years is a nefarious idiot, but that is a whole different topic!



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14785 times:
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I think the 787s will be the Presidential airplane of choice for several countries, mainly because of its size (not too big, not too small), and range, amongs other things

User currently offlinekapnoc4389 From Mexico, joined Sep 2011, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 14786 times:

According to the article they are looking to finance it and the petition was for 120 million. Currently the Mexican armed forces are renewing their fleets, since they are more than 25 years old.

User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2713 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14621 times:


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Mexico Air Transport 1 is not an old bird considering that its entire life has been spent as a private plane, and its total cycles must be registering comparatively low to an average commercial 757 of the same type and age.

Back in the days, the president of Mexico would charter a DC-8 from then state-controlled AeroMexico for his trips abroad when the presidential plane was insufficient for his needs.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/18778_293309404647_4372579_n.jpg

With Mexico's security situation today this would not be a practical solution in the name of saving tax payer money. The argument being used is that the aircraft--which was originally purchased for $43 million back in 1988---is costing the government a hefty sum in order to maintain now that it is almost 25-years old. The plane was purchased from Boeing with a twelve year financing plan and an APR interest rate of 12%. In 2007, the plane received $67 million worth of upgrades in order to keep it in top shape and in the coming years will require another significant investment in order to update its security and safety systems with the latest technology. With the current level of security problems in the country the government is proactively looking at this expense as a wise investment in order to ensure the president's safety and security by acquiring the latest safety systems that will not only protect him but allow him to exercise his duty as president while on the plane in case of an emergency, while at the same time also acquiring a more efficient plane.

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:23:09]

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:24:03]

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14598 times:

I say go for it. Make the cheatlines in the Dreamliner wavy design like what UA is doing with it's upcoming 787's. I think that wavy cheatline should come standard in the paintshop.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently onlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9511 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14525 times:

Boeing is retiring the first three 787s. The next 3 are certifiable, but overweight and not ideal for airline operations. No airline wants line numbers 4-6. I assume Boeing would give the Mexican government an extremely good deal on these airplanes, and a deal probably can be made to get maintenance support tied to AeroMexico’s 787s. The early build 787s likely are of no use to anyone other than as BBJ/VIP airplanes. They will come with a less than ideal configuration and maintenance program because of all the rework. However for an operator that only has one airplane, it isn't as much of a concern.

This sounds like a smart decision for the Mexican government.

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:14:22]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14396 times:
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One question about presidential airplanes,

Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ can take all over the world for a third of the money


User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2120 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 14335 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ

because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24886 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 14231 times:

How about a 767-300ER ?

Some commonality including with cockpit crews to the 757, and surely cheaper than a 787.

Also the 767 is well know in Mexico with parts availability, and mechanics when needed.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2713 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 14187 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):

How about a 767-300ER ?

Some commonality including with cockpit crews to the 757, and surely cheaper than a 787.


From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price. If Boeing sells this 787 at a loss it would be a great sales win for Boeing. While perhaps it may seem a bit too much of an aircraft, if we go back and look at the facts, we can see that back in the early 1990s the decision to keep a brand new 757 during the tequila financial crisis was also highly criticized, but today we can see that this aircraft has more than paid for itself twice in the 25 years of service it has provided the country.

If we look at what this airplane has also helped the country achieve since 1990, when the aircraft arrived, Mexico changed drastically from being an extremely closed protectionist country to one that today has arranged free trade agreements with 44 countries. Mexico's exports to all countries increased 475% from 1994 to 2011 to the tune of $61 billion to $350 billion, and its imports during the same period increased 342%. Mexican tourism and aviation industries has greatly benefited from the president's promotional trips abroad. Mexican airlines have been secured valuable landing rights to foreign airports thanks to the president's diplomatic negotiations. For example, AM secured up to four landing rights per week to congested Narita even before Emirates was ever allowed to land there. So, again while a 787 may pump up the president of Mexico with self importance as Viaggiare suggest, if it is used wisely to promote trade, business, investments, and political goodwill for Mexico in the next 25 years then it will probably be good a return on its investment for the country.

Lastly, while the 757 was obtained with a 12% APR terms, at a time when Mexico's credit rating was in the trash, I'm sure the financing package available today will be a much sweeter rate thanks to Mexico's financial strength and its very healthy credit rating.

My own personal opinion.

[Edited 2012-07-24 19:36:06]

[Edited 2012-07-24 19:40:41]

User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14081 times:

Whilst I am aware of the uses of "Bizjets" which this essentially is, I always find it hard to stomach these same people, who are supposed to be public servants buying these things for their use, (often including private use) with my money.

They are also frequently calling for "belt tightening" from the man in the street at the same time.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 days ago) and read 13963 times:

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 13):
From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price.

The frame may be bargain basement. The interiors and the engines would probably not be discounted.

Still it would be a good buy. I was hoping that Paul Allen would one of those early frame to fly our local American Football team.   

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 876 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 13940 times:

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 11):
Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ

because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.

There is actually more to it than that.

Depending on the nation there are vastly different needs for air transport.

For example Air Force One makes a lot of sense for the US as it has certain communication and security requirements that necessitate the large frame. This is not necessary for most nations that don't have nuclear deterrence to consider so you generally see smaller airplanes used.

But a 787 is not an outsized aircraft for a nation like Mexico. You have to consider that some level of office/communications must be present for a head of state. Additionally you generally are going to have to transport support staff and reporters (a big issue for democratic countries) around on your government aircraft for official trips. There probably is some ego in getting bigger national transport planes but there is practical purposes as well. They are also a pretty small expense for almost all nations in the grand scheme of things.


User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3906 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 13930 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 16):
and reporters (a big issue for democratic countries)

In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 876 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 13925 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 17):
In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.

That is a fairly uninformed rant. The media pays to fly on Air Force One. I have no idea what other nations do. They are transported there because it is important for the people to see what the President is doing. But they pay their way on the aircraft.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 13906 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 18):
But they pay their way on the aircraft.

And they are more than willing to pay fare value to be close to any leader. I bet, that even if they have to pay premium prices to fly with a presidential plane vs saving money flying tourist class, major media outlet will pay the extra money just to be that much closer to their story.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3906 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 13758 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 18):

That is a fairly uninformed rant. The media pays to fly on Air Force One. I

Okay. I still find it a surprising arrangement.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13731 times:

Quoting thrufru (Reply 3):
I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.
Quoting kapnoc4389 (Reply 6):
According to the article they are looking to finance it and the petition was for 120 million.
Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 13):
From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price. If Boeing sells this 787 at a loss it would be a great sales win for Boeing.

Quite a good deal for both Boeing and the Mexican government. Boeing gets an $11B order from AM and the FAM gets a state-of-the-art transport with the range for almost all conceivable presidential missions, at a bonus price. Win-win!   

[Edited 2012-07-26 08:48:35]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinespink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 318 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 13589 times:

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 17):
In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.

It the real world it is often not viable for the media to fly commercial given the itineraries that are generally flow by heads of state, esp in the modern world where airport security can require pre-checkin times longer than the actual stop duration. The only real alternative would be either a fleet of private planes or the media pooling together and chartering a larger plane, both of which present logistic issues. You also have to consider that not all head of state itineraries are pre-published. And there are also cases where there are no viable commercial means of going where the head of state is going in a timely fashion (think natural disasters/national emergencies). Therefore, it makes sense to provide at least limited seating for media on head of state flights. Remember that the media provides a proxy for the openness and information which in theory is needed for a republic or a democracy to function.

If Mexico can get a 787 at a good discount, it seems perfectly reasonable to do so. It is a new plane that will be in commercial service for the next 30+ years. 757s only have so much life left in them, and operating a type after the vast majority of operators have stopped can be very costly, esp with a 30+ year old plane.


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 411 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13498 times:
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Quoting thrufru (Reply 3):
I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.

Yes, however like Air Force One's VC-25's... we paid a LOT more for them due to the airframes being heavily modified for security etc...so they will still pay well for this bird, whatever they get if it's "new".


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12356 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13472 times:

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 7):
In 2007, the plane received $67 million worth of upgrades in order to keep it in top shape and in the coming years will require another significant investment in order to update its security and safety systems with the latest technology. With the current level of security problems in the country the government is proactively looking at this expense as a wise investment in order to ensure the president's safety and security by acquiring the latest safety systems that will not only protect him but allow him to exercise his duty as president while on the plane in case of an emergency, while at the same time also acquiring a more efficient plane.

Well said.

I think a good world presence for the leader of an important nation is well worth the price.

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 11):
because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 21):
Quite a good deal for both Boeing and the Mexican government. Boeing gets an $11B order from AM and the FAM gets a state-of-the-art transport with the range for almost all conceivable presidential missions, at a bonus price.

Thanks for the view from cynic's corner!

Quite often I am there myself, but for whatever reason, I will not join you today.

Quoting spink (Reply 22):
It the real world it is often not viable for the media to fly commercial given the itineraries that are generally flow by heads of state, esp in the modern world where airport security can require pre-checkin times longer than the actual stop duration.

And given that they quite often fly to private or military airfields....

Quoting 135mech (Reply 23):
Yes, however like Air Force One's VC-25's... we paid a LOT more for them due to the airframes being heavily modified for security etc..

IIRC we paid to put 747-400 engines onto the 747-200 frame, no?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 411 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13559 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
Quoting 135mech (Reply 23):
Yes, however like Air Force One's VC-25's... we paid a LOT more for them due to the airframes being heavily modified for security etc..

IIRC we paid to put 747-400 engines onto the 747-200 frame, no?

I just contacted my friends over there, and they confirmed that they are -200 series engines.


User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4384 posts, RR: 19
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13416 times:

The VC25 has the same engines as the 747-400.


Incidentally that Mexican Government 757 must be an ex Eastern Airlines model if it's a -225.


Don't think it was delivered new.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 13472 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ can take all over the world for a third of the money

First - a plane like that won't cost 'a third of the money'. As mentioned above Boeing is heavily discounting 787 frames 4-6 - which would likely put the prices much closer.

Secondly - A G-550 or Global XRS is good for a company who needs to regularly transport no more than six people. Regularly. I don't really know anything about the government of Mexico - but I suspect his communication needs and the support staff needed for his talks with various leaders, and business leaders requires a bigger staff than that. Also, the times I've seen him on TV from visits to the US, he does have a security staff. Nothing as massive as the US President Secret Service detail - but some would need to travel with the President of Mexico.

A BBJ could do about 10-12 people regularly, unless the end customer wants to spend several million extra to redesign the interior. Some nations do have customized higher passenger load BBJs in use.

Some of those same countries charter a B777 or A330 if their president/ prime minister needs to make official long distance trips.

One of the problems with a bizjet aircraft is luggage space for a large party. At least a BBJ does have the luggage space.

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 20):
Okay. I still find it a surprising arrangement.

The US news media went on an 'ethics' bender in the late 70s / early 80s - about not accepting anything free from the people they cover. They don't accept rides on business jets of companies either.

It became a huge pain and accounting nightmare for the US military. While we could figure the cost of a cruise ship ticket from San Francisco to Honolulu for the media I organized for the last voyage of the USS Missouri, and we could figure the cost of trans-atlantic air fare when I organized a P-3 media ride across the pond - how do you figure the cost of a COD to the USS Lexington? or the cost of two days on a carrier.

And of course the money the media pays goes into the general fund. It doesn't go back to the unit providing the 'service'. It doesn't even go back to add to DODs budget.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13353 times:

Brazil is looking for something bigger than the A319CJ currently operated. While I thinks this is completely unnecessary, if it is going to happen, why not look into second hand A340s??

Cheap, modern, four engines, long range. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1812 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13244 times:

Even if the first frames are 5-6t overweight the range will be enough as a VIP plane never travels filled to its gills, the terrible teens should have a range of about 6700nm with 240 seats filled?!

I would be a waste to scrap these too, the first 3 will be scrapped or museum exhibits.


User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13200 times:

One thing about flying the 787 vs the 757 will be the global availability of parts through Boeing spares network for the next 20+ years. When you have to fly somewhere, you don't want to wait for a week for parts when you can get it the next day.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12356 posts, RR: 25
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13176 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):
why not look into second hand A340s??

Why would you put tons of money into customizing something that is at the end of its production life?

Spares, etc are only going to get costlier and harder to find from here on out.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 411 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 day ago) and read 13153 times:
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Quoting 135mech (Reply 25):
IIRC we paid to put 747-400 engines onto the 747-200 frame, no?

I just contacted my friends over there, and they confirmed that they are -200 series engines.
Quoting 135mech (Reply 25):
The VC25 has the same engines as the 747-400.

I just recieved an e-mail from another one of my engine friends, and they are equipped with the CF6-80's as the 400's are.

Apologies on the Friday bad-info. That source wasn't an engine troop.


User currently online747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2088 posts, RR: 14
Reply 33, posted (2 years 23 hours ago) and read 13132 times:

Quoting 135mech (Reply 33):
The VC25 has the same engines as the 747-400.I just received an e-mail from another one of my engine friends, and they are equipped with the CF6-80's as the 400's are.

Some hairsplitting :

The VC25's are powered by digital supervised, mechanical controlled( Non Fadec) CF6-80C2B1 engines . This type of engine cannot be converted into the CF-6-80C2B1F engine variant as installed on the 747-400 series.
This is caused by the lack of provisions for measuring points (probes) needed for the FADEC at the engine casing of the Non Fadec engines. A lot of (internal ) engine part are however interchangeable.
The CF6-80C2B1 variant is certified on later produced 747-200 and 300 series and are installed at a total of nine 747 classic aircraft. The 747-2/3 - CF6-80C2B1 combination is not exclusively certified for the VC25.



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1781 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (2 years 23 hours ago) and read 13125 times:

The price the local media is quoting is of $140-160 million, that is just for the plane itself...I'm sure there will be a sort of maintenance/service/upgrade contract also.

Current...



Proposed...




Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 35, posted (2 years 23 hours ago) and read 13118 times:

I like how they are comparing the capacity.

A 66 seat 'all first' or executive layout 757 aircraft to a 290 seat high density Y config 787-9.

The B757 has an 11 ft wide cabin area that is about 118 ft long.

The B787 has a maximum 18 ft wide cabin that is about 140 ft long.


User currently offlineFF22DXB From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2008, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (2 years 21 hours ago) and read 13075 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 36):
I like how they are comparing the capacity.

The best is the description about the engines!!

  


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 37, posted (2 years 20 hours ago) and read 12992 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
One question about presidential airplanes,

Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ can take all over the world for a third of the money

They can. Until recently the French president used either a Falcon (several models) or an A319ACJ. Now the main plane is an A330 but for short trips a Falcon 7X is usually used. That bird can also transport a minister, including around the globe to overseas territories like Tahiti or New Caledonia.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineFyano773 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 784 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (2 years 17 hours ago) and read 12894 times:

Back on topic, I started a thread in the general aviation forum about this same subject, but it was deleted, albeit there is a very interesting disussion here. I previously posted an image of the plane (shared in fsmex.com forum), wearing the FAM colors:



To those who suggested a 763, here is one:



Certainly, the president will have a more capable aircraft to attend meetings and summits with his counterparts, rapidly and safely.

This plane will be a big improvement over the current one whose range leads to 1 or 2 stops when flying from Mexico to Europe or Asia. Today, a journalist could potentially arrive (and return) before the president to cover a state visit.

[Edited 2012-07-30 16:32:32]

[Edited 2012-07-31 12:26:55 by srbmod]

User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1308 posts, RR: 52
Reply 39, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 12602 times:
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Quoting ptrjong (Reply 20):
Okay. I still find it a surprising arrangement.

Why? The intent is to prove that there is no favoritism applied to the current politician by the press getting a 'free ride'. It is to maintain impartiality. Of course, it fails, today's press is far from impartial, but that was the intent.

As one who worked with technical journalists world wide, I found the arrangements in Europe fascinating. If we were hosting the journalists on some event - they expected 1st class accommodations for free. We flew them business/first class. They paid for nothing. They got grouchy if you considered they had to pay.

In the US, they would never consider accepting such a trip for free. They would, at most, go to a dinner on the company, but not the rest.

Again - they wanted to be able to claim - we are not biased toward this company because of any gifts, etc.

As an employee - I was not allowed to accept any gift but the smallest token from press, customers or business partners for the same reason.



rcair1
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3392 posts, RR: 4
Reply 40, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 12591 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
Why would you put tons of money into customizing something that is at the end of its production life?

If the frame price is cheap enough... A345's for example should make quite good VIP frames as they have no resale value on the used market, but have commonality with the much better A346 frame so it should give you quite a bit longer window of active support of the frame.

In this case, they are likely getting a 787 for quite cheap, and can look forward to 30 years of active support as they are just starting thier service life. So its the best of both worlds. Boeing punts a unique frame that would be costly for an airline to support along side its production standard planes for as much as the market demands to a customer who can buy lots of other things that cost big money.... Mexico gets a brand new plane for used prices.


User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 41, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 12588 times:

So what will they do with the B757, (FedEx?).

User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 42, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 12530 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 40):

Which leads to this nugget. With a composite frame, fatigue life is no longer a major issue. You can fly the frame for as long you can support it with replacement parts . . . can't say the same for the aluminum counterpart.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4384 posts, RR: 19
Reply 43, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12386 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 42):

Which leads to this nugget. With a composite frame, fatigue life is no longer a major issue. You can fly the frame for as long you can support it with replacement parts . . . can't say the same for the aluminum counterpart.

Why would a composite airframe not be affected by fatigue ?



That makes no sense.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12379 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):

Why would a composite airframe not be affected by fatigue ?

That makes no sense.

"Fatigue" as in crack growth. There are other types of degradation with respect to composite, but crack prorogation is not an issue with composite as it is on aluminum skin.

Now, there may be aluminum fittings used that may have to be replaced over the life time of the craft, but those are easier to replace than a skin panel.

Where titanium fittings are used, crack growth is not expected to be an issue either.

bt

[Edited 2012-08-01 14:55:54]


Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2713 posts, RR: 14
Reply 45, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12360 times:

http://www.eluniversaltv.com.mx/detalle.php?d=31551

Some news in Spanish from Mexico's www.eluniversal.com.mx


User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2713 posts, RR: 14
Reply 46, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12355 times:

And there it is... according to this report seems like the budget has been approved and will be left to the next president to sign and move forward. If so, the aircraft will arrive in 2015 and the new security and safety infrastructure will be in place by then.

http://www.redpolitica.mx/nacion/nue...vinculado-seguridad-nacional-poire

[Edited 2012-08-01 17:45:36]

User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 47, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12226 times:

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 46):

Wow that was fast. How long ago did they start work on this? It would have taken years if not decades for something like this go go through procurement here in the US.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2713 posts, RR: 14
Reply 48, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12120 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 47):
Wow that was fast. How long ago did they start work on this? It would have taken years if not decades for something like this go go through procurement here in the US.

The project has been in evaluation for some time. The issue here was not acquiring a flamboyant plane for prestige, but rather upgrading the entire department of the air force in charge of transporting the head of state with the most sophisticated safety and intelligence infrastructure both on the ground and in the air. Take into account that Mexico is a country at war with vicious drug cartels that try and sometimes manage to infiltrate government institutions to make a point.

Government officials working on the project took the opportunity to check out the 787 when it arrived at AeroMexico's base earlier this year on its Latin American demonstration tour. It was there that Boeing started engaging in serious talks with the federal government of Mexico. Based on their study and with the good terms offered by Boeing, they later concluded that such an aircraft would be the best choice for an investment that would produce benefits over the next 30- plus years.

One of the problems with the current 757 TP-01 is that this is for the most part simply a VIP aircraft and lacks the modern security and communication systems to guarantee the safety and confidentially of the president. One can assume that EL AL's 757s standing alone are probably safer than Mexico's presidential 757. Boeing is offering a good deal, but this is just one part of the entire cost, for you can expect this aircraft to be fitted with anti-missile defense systems as well as very complex security and communication infrastructure both on the ground and in the air and this simply does come cheap.

While the federal government of Mexico has approved the project with a budget of $780 million USD to overhaul the entire department, the project is still far from squared away. This year a new government will take over and it is up to the new president to analyze and give the okay. He will have to decide whether the 30-year-up-front investment is worthwhile the harsh criticism he will receive from his national opponents. Yes, Mexico has many social issues it needs to tackle and there will be a combination of justified and unintelligent uproar about the cost associated with such a project. However, it is up the new president to do things wisely for the long term benefit of the country. Nevertheless, as history in Mexico has demonstrated, he might make stupid mistakes like the one with the Fox administration in which the president's wife went crazy redecorating the presidential palace and ordered bath towels costing $500 each and bed sheets costing $1,500 a piece, just among other extravagant expenditures.

Last night, I looked at the magnificent program that the National Geographic produced four years ago about Air Force One, and it made me understand a little more of the complexity involved with having a presidential aircraft and understood the seriousness of Mexico's plan with its own presidential air transport going forward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ2Fjqld2_A&feature=related

And, I contrasted it with the lack of seriousness with other presidential planes in the region. So for those of you that think that the Mexico should just go with a 737 business jet, because that is what you think a country like Mexico needs, well maybe he just get himself a BAE-146 like Evo Morales of Bolivia and do things that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZtOl...D939062079580&feature=results_main

[Edited 2012-08-02 14:26:12]

User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 876 posts, RR: 11
Reply 49, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12110 times:

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 48):
And, I contrasted it with the lack of seriousness with other presidential planes in the region. So for those of you that think that the Mexico should just go with a 737 business jet, because that is what you think a country like Mexico needs, well maybe he just get himself a BAE-146 like Evo Morales of Bolivia and do things that way

One does have to remember that AF1 levels of tech and security are derived from the Presidents unique role as national command authority for a nation that is both the target and deliverer of nuclear weapons on ballistic launchers. You can add to this his role commanding the worlds most powerful conventional armed forces and being the main leader of coalitions that span the globe.

The president of Bolivia is hardly going to have to respond to a nuclear strike while airborne so you can dispense with a huge amount of what goes into AF1 right there. Honestly most of his duties can likely be handled with an air phone.


User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2713 posts, RR: 14
Reply 50, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 12108 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 49):
One does have to remember that AF1 levels of tech and security are derived from the Presidents unique role as national command authority for a nation that is both the target and deliverer of nuclear weapons on ballistic launchers. You can add to this his role commanding the worlds most powerful conventional armed forces and being the main leader of coalitions that span the globe.

The president of Bolivia is hardly going to have to respond to a nuclear strike while airborne so you can dispense with a huge amount of what goes into AF1 right there. Honestly most of his duties can likely be handled with an air phone.


This is a really good point you make. But all countries have different needs and requirements and this is just one of many variables involved in this subject matter. On the other extreme we have a nuclear-power nation such as Pakistan who's head of state flies PIA aircraft on his presidential trips abroad. This situation on board a Pakistan International Airlines aircraft back in 1999 was quite amazing and scary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHk9_fn1Y2E

[Edited 2012-08-02 15:10:47]

User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6141 posts, RR: 30
Reply 51, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 12060 times:
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Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 48):
Yes, Mexico has many social issues it needs to tackle and there will be a combination of justified and unintelligent uproar about the cost associated with such a project. However, it is up the new president to do things wisely for the long term benefit of the country.

Given the big void in our Constitution regarding what happens if the President dies. And the huge instability that would produce, getting a plane like the one being considered, with all the safety requirements and comms equipment a plane for a head of state needs, is, indeed, for the long term benefit of the country.

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 48):
And, I contrasted it with the lack of seriousness with other presidential planes in the region. So for those of you that think that the Mexico should just go with a 737 business jet, because that is what you think a country like Mexico needs, well maybe he just get himself a BAE-146 like Evo Morales of Bolivia and do things that way.

Couldn´t have said it better myself.



MGGS
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11957 times:

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 48):
Boeing is offering a good deal, but this is just one part of the entire cost, for you can expect this aircraft to be fitted with anti-missile defense systems as well as very complex security and communication infrastructure both on the ground and in the air and this simply does come cheap.

Sure, the process in upgrading Mexico's Presidential plane may have been a long time in process, I was surprised on how flexible the decision making process was in selecting the 787 that was available. The only thing I can think that could have made this possible was the 787 a viable candidate from the beginning and the section of THIS PARTICULAR 787 was just an opportunity too good to pass up.

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 48):
for you can expect this aircraft to be fitted with anti-missile defense systems as well as very complex security and communication infrastructure both on the ground and in the air and this simply does come cheap.

This brings up a good question. Having seen the complexity of adding an anti missile defense system on an aluminum aircraft, I can see double the complexity of adding an anti missile system on a composite aircraft (from a manufacturing and modification stand point). I wonder if the 787 have provision for such a system already in place with all this talk about putting EWSP systems on commercial aircraft.   

I guess if EL AL will be flying the 787, they have already figured a way to do it.


bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (1 year 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 11726 times:

How often does the Mexican president travel, or rather need to travel? A new 787 seems like overkill, a new 767 could probably be had relatively cheap as far as new aircraft are concerned. Better yet, a new CS300 to go along with the support Bombardier has shown to Mexico would be a perfect aircraft and size for everything the office of the Mexican president would seemingly ever have.



User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12356 posts, RR: 25
Reply 54, posted (1 year 12 months ago) and read 11691 times:

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 48):
Based on their study and with the good terms offered by Boeing, they later concluded that such an aircraft would be the best choice for an investment that would produce benefits over the next 30- plus years.

It's nice to see this process going forward smoothly and without a lot of fuss. Mexico is probably getting the bargain of a generation on the airframe so it's great to see them take advantage of it. However, aerospace firms tend to charge huge amounts for the add-ons that you were talking about, so in the end, Mexico will have to keep very close control of what is being done or it could all be a very expensive and thus controversial airframe.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11565 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 53):
a new 767 could probably be had relatively cheap as far as new aircraft are concerned.

Maybe not considering they are not building many new 767 passenger liner right now. Most of the ones they are building are freighter versions. You'll probably have a hard time getting a "nearly new" 767.

And you'll definitely won't get any new 767 (heck, any new airplane in general) sooner than you can with that slightly used 787.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11408 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
Spares, etc are only going to get costlier and harder to find from here on out.

How much of a concern is this considering such a frame is looking at a low utilization life?

A340s will be around a while still, and then there are the A330s which will be around even longer and will continue to provide many parts.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 11345 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 56):

How much of a concern is this considering such a frame is looking at a low utilization life?

The availability of engine parts would be the most critical.

From a parts fabrication stand point, with the newer airplanes using more hi-speed machining and CAD design/fab authority parts, it is sometimes easier to fabricate the parts from engineering dataset than trying to find the parts from an old frame or from a 2D drawing.

bt



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
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