Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3230 posts, RR: 2 Posted (10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10504 times:
Norway threatens to cancel NH 90 order
Four years after the Norwegian military should have receaved 14 new NH 90 helicopters, only one has been delivered. Now the Defense Ministry has made it clear to the producer that it is actively searching for alternatives to the NH90.
- We have been crystal clear to the supplier. Now our patience has been stretched far enough. We do not want to hear any more explenations. We demand the helicopters, says Ingebrigtsen ( State Secretary in the Ministry of Defence )
The 14 new NH90 helicopters should have been delivered from 2005 to 2008, but only one machine is in operation.
The helicopters should have been on active duty with the Norwegian navy and coastguard, replacing the aging Lynx helicopters.
Of the 14, 8 is to be specially adapted for the Coast Guard needs, while 6 is to be configured for placement on the frigates.
The Norwegian defence department is now prepared to terminate the contract, if it is not honored soon.
Several countries have had problems in getting the helicopter on time, as the producer apparently have had problems with the various national special requirments. Several countries has already terminated their contracts.
Franky I think Norway should have terminated the contract a long time ago. The helicopters should have been delivered a long time ago. The contract has been renegotiated several times where the producer has been given more time. The Norwegian defence department is slow to act I think.
If the order is cancelled, I am wondering what type of helicopter the defence department will choose instead. On shelf products without the special national requirements ?
Larshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1217 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10479 times:
I could see Norway go with the AW149 if it will be ready in time, or perhaps the AW159 if they want to stick to something they know. I believe the AW101 is too high to use the hangar in the norwegian frigates.
I am glad that Denmark went with the EH-101 instead of the NH-90 like Norway, Sweden and Finland. We have had some problems with it but it has been flying since we got them.
It is amazing how late the NH-90 is. Sweden ordered at the same time as Norway and is expecting they will be operational by 2017, they even ordered Sikorsky UH-60Ms for use until the NH-90 is delivered.
sasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 633 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10417 times:
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 1): Sweden ordered at the same time as Norway and is expecting they will be operational by 2017, they even ordered Sikorsky UH-60Ms for use until the NH-90 is delivered
The Swedish deal was finalized in May of 2011 and as of June 2012 there are at least 3 Hkp 16's (UH-60M) operating on exercises in Sweden.... That's quite a quick delivery (from existing US Army new production aircraft). Would it be unreasonable to assume a similar quick turnaround time should Norway also go this route?
I had to hit all you guys... This is very much like the Canadian Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone program.
As a side note... I was having a few beers a couple of days ago with a buddy (A Sikorsky engineer @ the Palm Beach facility) and he told me that because of the delays... Canada would pretty much be getting these A/C for free! And then we joked about how at least they had the US Army contracts to keep them in the black.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 5, posted (10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10105 times:
Quoting mffoda (Reply 4): I had to hit all you guys... This is very much like the Canadian Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone program.
Yup, that one's a goat as well. Both the Liberals and Conservatives share the blame. BUt DND also take a hit (on most acquisition programs, not just the helicopters) since they want to "Canadianise" the damn thing. Whatever that means. Same with the EH-101s, submarines, and truck program.
Canada has imposed penalties on Sikorsky for being late, and these will increase in time.
ptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 20 Reply 6, posted (10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9711 times:
I'm surprised that the immature NH-90 has been ordered by so many countries - over a dozen. Agressive pricing maybe, but I don't suppose that's the whole story. There must be something good about it if it can be made to work.
Can anyone update me on the Dutch NH-90s?
The last I heard was of performance problems and of a rotor head modification making the helicopter taller, causing it not to fit in frigate hangars
How many have been delivered and are they anywhere near operational? I understand the Lynx is already virtually out of service. I'm not sure if this is mainly due to budget or technical problems, but there's a real operation going on off Somalia.
Peter:")
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
Quote:
At last we can say goodbye to the worn out Sea Lynx! (At least after 2005 Big grin )
Quite a step up in performance one might say.....
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 6): I'm surprised that the immature NH-90 has been ordered by so many countries - over a dozen. Agressive pricing maybe, but I don't suppose that's the whole story. There must be something good about it if it can be made to work.
The program is a recipe for failure. Two major variants (naval vs tactical), six different assembly lines chosen for political reasons, tons of nation-specific customization, etc.
Wiki has more on the situation with Norway:
Quote:
In December 2011, the first Norwegian NH90 helicopter was delivered.[20] In an announcement on july 20th 2012, Norwegian Deputy Defence Minister Roger Ingebrigtsen stated that "once our current Westland Lynx helicopters reach their end of life in 2014, we are going to have new helicopters on our naval vessels. If the NH90 hasnt been delivered, we will purchase another helicopter." He also said that "considering that the aircraft were to be delivered by 2005, and that delivery is yet to start by 2012, doesnt increase our confidence in the producer". Sources in the Defence Department that remain unnamed, told TV2 that "we have started looking for other producers". [21] NH90 is also a candidate for the Norwegian All Weather Search and Rescue Helicopter (NAWSARH) that is planned to replace the Westland Sea King Mk.43B of the Royal Norwegian Air Force in 2015.[22] The other candidates for the NAWSARH contract of 10–12 helicopters were AgustaWestland AW101, Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey, Eurocopter EC225, and Sikorsky S-92.[23] However, the V-22 was eliminated from the competition in 2012.[24]
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1551 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (10 months 23 hours ago) and read 9511 times:
Many nations serving in Afghanistan has gotten used to the black hawk, I guess it has proved it self with a lot of customers over the years, a very harsh environment. It has so many versions to choose from as well. A very decent all rounder IMO.
The old work horse the Chinook has also shown its worth in that conflict, but sadly many have been brought down too with big loss of life.
Maybe the new X2 inspired faster transport would be better in a battle like this, 220 knots must be harder to hit?
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13343 posts, RR: 64 Reply 9, posted (10 months 22 hours ago) and read 9501 times:
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 6): I'm surprised that the immature NH-90 has been ordered by so many countries - over a dozen. Agressive pricing maybe, but I don't suppose that's the whole story. There must be something good about it if it can be made to work.
Can anyone update me on the Dutch NH-90s?
The last I heard was of performance problems and of a rotor head modification making the helicopter taller, causing it not to fit in frigate hangars
How many have been delivered and are they anywhere near operational? I understand the Lynx is already virtually out of service. I'm not sure if this is mainly due to budget or technical problems, but there's a real operation going on off Somalia.
Peter:")
EADS thinks they have the monopoly on military goods for European militaries, same as Boeing and Lockheed Martin think about the American market. Unlike 40 years ago, there aren´t a multitude of competing players in the respective markets left. The big ones have practically cornered the markets and think that it is a machine for printing money for substandard products.
It is time for us tax payers (European and American) to show them who is actually paying for their junk and thatn they´ll better get up to speed if they want to have more of our money.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10481 posts, RR: 20 Reply 10, posted (10 months 18 hours ago) and read 9455 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9): It is time for us tax payers (European and American) to show them who is actually paying for their junk and thatn they´ll better get up to speed if they want to have more of our money.
It is remarkable to see how the same companies behave when selling to foreign entities. For instance Boeing paid out a lot of cash to Australia over delays in Wedgetail that we'd never see them pay in their contracts with the US government.
The problem in the US is the cozy relationship between the government and the contractors.
I don't realistically see a way for this to change.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1551 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (10 months 16 hours ago) and read 9436 times:
It will change when the economy tanks for real, by now most sane people should understand that printing new credit doesn't solve a thing, the western world i broke and we only have hope left. I have a hard time believing in aliens coming to earth and solving our debt problems.
The military will be slaughtered one way or the other, if it comes to bread for the population or new toys for the military, we all know how that ends. In Sweden the government has used the military budget to balance other areas like social benefits and all crap they can score PC points with.
LM and Boeing will find out that the pork is thin..
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (10 months 2 hours ago) and read 9266 times:
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 6): I'm surprised that the immature NH-90 has been ordered by so many countries - over a dozen. Agressive pricing maybe, but I don't suppose that's the whole story.
NH Industries is founded by Agusta, Eurocopter and Stork (Fokker). If the last party wasn't involved, I suspect the Dutch would have ordered American.
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 6): Can anyone update me on the Dutch NH-90s?
Quote: "We still have a long way to go," ten Haf said, but added: "It's a good aircraft, despite all the negative press. It will get there."
I know some crews flying the NH-90. They are mainly positive about the helo and as Flightglobal reported last year, they expect to be fully operational by the end of this year.
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 12): NH Industries is founded by Agusta, Eurocopter and Stork (Fokker). If the last party wasn't involved, I suspect the Dutch would have ordered American.
Yes, I know. Otherwise the Dutch are not supportive of the European industry at all, which is very bad. I's the only way forward, despite the way programmes are being messed up.
It's the early NH-90 export orders that surprise me somewhat.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10481 posts, RR: 20 Reply 14, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9153 times:
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11714 posts, RR: 52 Reply 16, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9052 times:
In addition to the German Army having problems with their NH-90s, so is the RAN.
For Norway perhaps it is better to cancel the contract now and get an order in for the HH/MH-60 series, or the AW-149. They can have some HH-60H/J/Ts in the fleet by 2014 when the RNAF/NCG Lynx Mk.86/HAS.2s begin retiring.
sweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1551 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8871 times:
Has the NH90 served in Afghanistan yet? How well does it perform in a tough environment? It should be a very good way to test it? Cant think of a more hostile environment to engines and rotors than that dusty country. Occasional rpg or bullet as well, you can get that wear and tear in a lab IMO.
r2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2252 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7900 times:
I think the NH90 could potentially be/have been a good helicopter, but the whole program setup is flawed. It reminds me a bit of the EF Typhoon. There are not 2 versions of the helicopter as advertised, but 17 (one per customer per subvariant). The various countries, with the excuse of "unique operational requirements", have used customization as a political job-creation program for their national industries. Hence, it has gotten completely out of control.
In modern military aviation, you can be pretty sure that the slowest delivery schedule is correct (unless there are further delays). And it need not even be about the NH-90.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
Larshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1217 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7644 times:
Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 20):
Swedish Air force have already received a few NH-90s and according to FMV
the delivery is (according to them) expected to be finished in 2015.
There is a difference between the helicopters being delivered and operational.
The first danish EH-101 was delivered in 2005, but the S-61 was not retired until 2010.
BigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 714 posts, RR: 11 Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7605 times:
Quoting r2rho (Reply 19): The various countries, with the excuse of "unique operational requirements", have used customization as a political job-creation program for their national industries.
That is one of my favorite phrases in international arms sales. It is such a crock of crap in about 95% of the circumstances where it is used. There are basically three customers that are big enough worldwide to have unique requirements. The US, Russia and China. Everyone else is for the most part just creating jobs. Now there may be things out there that are not 100% optimized for what they might want to do. And in some cases it will justify the minimal cost difference to say build your own tank rather than buy one. But for the most part there is very little other nations need that is really unique from one another.
If Europe wants to build weapons on its own then fine, but stop pretending that every little state there has unique operational requirements when they really don't. It is just a huge waste of money.
autothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 24, posted (9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7560 times:
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 1): It is amazing how late the NH-90 is.
Quoting sweair (Reply 3): The UH60s are a very mature design used all over the world
Sorry to stop your bashing, the NH-90 is the world's most advanced transport helicopter. Of course you could buy a UH60 or even a UH1 and it would be more mature. However nowhere as sophisticated.
How late was the A380 or 787 or a400M? It's not they are lazy or experienced some trivial problems at the production.
Wasn't it worth to wait for the A380 or 787?
If Norway want's to drop the NH-90 in favour of a old-tech chopper, go ahead. Better for the other nations waiting.
O tempora o mores
25 sweair: Sometimes you can not afford to wait, you need the capacity now and not 5 years away, just saying
26 Mortyman: Did you read the top post ? The helicopters should have been delivered between 2005 - 2008. That's a long time ago ! Norway has been very patient and
27 ThePointblank: The naval NH-90 (NFH-90) is not in service with any country yet and many countries (ie Germany, Sweden and Australia) are having troubles introducing
28 autothrust: You have not really an idea what you are talking about. The NH-90 is made of more then 85% CFRP, that mean's the chopper has a unprecedented resistan
29 Revelation: That's a lot of features, ones that the customers are paying dearly for. It seems to be a case of "the great is the enemy of the good"...
30 sasd209: While all this is well and good, it does absolutely NO good at all if Norway doesn't have it and therefore cannot fly it on operational missions, as
31 BigJKU: The biggest issue has to be the price point to me. It is not a big deal as a frigate helicopter but as a general utility helicopter for an army it is
32 Mortyman: The Norwegian ministry of defence has asked the Norwegian airforce to make a report on what they would consider to be the best alternative to the NH90
33 autothrust: Rubbish, you are comparing a 767 with a 787/A350. The UH-60 are a 1970's design which is prone to corrosion, nowhere as stealthy or system wise capab
34 BigJKU: For the most part in a utility battlefield helicopter that is just not something that gets me too worked up. The biggest problem that a lot of the Eu
35 autothrust: Today everything is specialised, the USAF hat in the 50's much more plane that today? Why? Because some small number of advanced planes can do the jo
36 sasd209: Do you have specific examples of MTBF of the "old" helicopters you are talking about versus the "highly capable and modern platforms which are much m
37 ThePointblank: We aren't talking about a front line combat aircraft, we are talking about a support aircraft. You don't need cutting edge technology here. The NH90
38 autothrust: No i don't have. But from specifications and extrapolations you can get a picture. For example Gearbox problems of the CH-148 does it say you somethi
39 KC135TopBoom: What is more effcient is having a system in hand to use it when you need to. A promised system that has yet to be delivered is useless. See above. Bu
40 autothrust: What a nonsense. You could say the same about the F-35, F-22, 787, A350. More nonsense, the hydraulics are nowhere as reliable as a FBW, heavier, mor
41 ThePointblank: Composites can suffer from delamination; for example, on our CH-149's, we had a problem in the fuel bays and also under the APU blanket. Let's see if
42 autothrust: True, that can be the case on all aircraft made with CFRP, no wonder, i guess Augusta have still to learn some lessons about CFRP.
43 KC135TopBoom: Although the B-787 and F-22 were late/very late, they are now in service. The F-22 is still having problems with its oxygen generation system, but it
44 autothrust: So it will be the NH-90, and now you agree that your point above is nonsense. How does that relate to being more reliable? True, but none of this hel
45 ThePointblank: NH-90 is under what I call developmental 'hell'. The numerous variants for each nation is essentially a separate design sharing the same basic shape.
46 autothrust: Then the F-35 is in that hell to. Besides the NH-90 is already in serivce. I was referring to conventional flight controls vs FBW. Not true. It can l
47 jollo: I browsed the thread but could not find this information; sorry if this has been already discussed: * How many "unique operational needs" did Norway b
48 autothrust: Couldn't agree more. There are also a lot of politics in this whole program.
49 Mortyman: Can't really say that Norway has been inflexible with this, as the deadlines has been renegotiated and the producers has gotten the schedule renegoti
50 jollo: If you buy a Ferrari with custom interiors you know that you're going to have to be flexible with delivery times; if you order it with a custom engin
51 SAS A340: Well,since your patience with the F-35 seems to be a lot bigger in terms of delivery date and not to mention the price,why just don't do as we (Swede
52 LifelinerOne: Some good news on the Dutch NH-90's: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...st-fully-operational-NH90s-375683/ Cheers!
53 autothrust: That's what amazes me. When Lockheed Martin or Boeing is years behind, with incredible cost overruns nobody cares. When Eurocopter or EADS has delays
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